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Author Topic: UNC admission rescission sparks suit
HazyCosmicJive
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Mark Edmonson is all ready for college. He went through orientation, he has his student I.D. card and he's been assigned a dorm room and a roommate.

Still, the 18-year-old from Greensboro needs the help of an Orange County judge in order to begin his Tar Heel career.

Edmonson, whose 3.8 grade-point average and 1,600 SAT score earlier this year surely helped him gain entrance to Carolina, went into something of an academic tailspin at the end of his senior year. His final GPA slid to a 3.5 after he failed a class and got Cs and at least one D in others.

Seeing this, UNC's admissions staff changed its mind and rescinded its admission offer. Now the university is trying to fend off an injunction requested by Edmonson's attorney that would allow the would-be student to begin his college career next week while a full-blown lawsuit over the issue plays itself out.

The lawsuit, filed last week in Orange County Superior Court in Hillsborough, contends that the university's offer of admission amounted to a binding contract to which both UNC and Edmonson agreed. Further, the lawsuit contends that UNC's decision to rescind its admission offer was not justified and is thus a breach of contract.

Herald Sun article

Let's hear it for sense of entitlement and lack of accountability! I especially love this bit:
quote:
"I frankly think that his 1600 [SAT] score was being held against him, that even with his lofty score, they can teach him a lesson," Hurley said Tuesday. "I just think there's some arrogance going on here, some bureaucratic arrogance."
Arrogance? Hello pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle. This boy thinks that because he has a 1600, he can fail everything and still write his own ticket. I've got news for you buddy. To a college, 1600 + Fs and Ds = underachiever (or cheater, but in this case I think the former is more likely). In either case, it does NOT indicate that the student will be able to succeed at the college (where test scores cease to matter and it's all about the work done in classes), and that is what colleges are looking for when admitting.

Actually, I think what's really going on here is that the boy is grasping at straws because he didn't have a back-up plan so now he's got nowhere to go to college for the fall. That isn't that big a deal - he can enroll at a JC or he can apply somewhere else for the next semester, although with those senior year grades he won't get into a competitive university unless he can show competitive college work after the fact. JC it is for him is my guess.

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Suddenly she realizes that amongst a crazy drunken schoolmarm, a navy swim instructor with a food fetish, a southern hick farmer, a porn star turned used car dealer, and a horny ex-football player, she won't be this strange outsider.

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I think the kids a moron. His academic career shows that though he wants to appear self-motivated, he's obviously not. Otherwise, there would have been no problem with his last term of highschool. Let him go to JC and pick it up from there.

Beach...I think most admissions are pending final grades though...Life!

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Ursa Major
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Senior slacking is a tradition in American high schools. Right or wrong, the general assumption is that you're in once a university has accepted you no matter how much you goof off during your last semester of high school. Under that assumption, there's little to motivate a student to work very hard during that semester.

I think UNC is perfectly within its rights to change that tradition, but I hope they at least publicized that change or better yet put it in writing.

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Meaty Pop
Remembrances of Things Bass


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As far as I know any college acceptance is conditional on that you graduate and maintain a certain level of academic achievement in your last semester. Thus it would be OK to go from an A student to a B student, but to actually fail a class and get C's and D's, that just shows you are probably not ready for college.

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Four Kitties
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quote:
Originally posted by Ursa Major:
I think UNC is perfectly within its rights to change that tradition, but I hope they at least publicized that change or better yet put it in writing.

They put it in writing. From the same Herald Sun article above:
quote:
But the same [admission acceptance] letter warned Edmonson not to slack off at all during his senior year.

"Because we want you to finish strongly and come to Carolina ready to excel, your enrollment will depend upon your successful completion of your current academic year," wrote Jerry Lucido, UNC's director of undergraduate admissions. "We expect you to continue to achieve at the same level that enabled us to provide this offer of admission."

They got no case. It was a conditional contract, and he didn't meet the conditions.

Four Kitties

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HazyCosmicJive
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Ursa Major:
I think UNC is perfectly within its rights to change that tradition, but I hope they at least publicized that change or better yet put it in writing.

As it says in the article, the admissions letter says that admission is contingent upon consistent performance in the senior year. Most admission letters say that and have said it for a long time. I know the ones sent from the university at which I work do. And when I applied for colleges (10 years ago) all my admission letters did as well.

Most colleges will allow a bit of slacking to slide. Straight As to straight Bs is not going to be a problem. One C- might even get past if the rest of the grades are satisfactory. But a big drop like the one seen here won't get past ANY university that I know of.

In short, it's a myth that you can completely slack and still be OK once you've been admitted to a college. I would even posit that most students who are high achieving admits to competitive colleges won't want to slack for their own personal reasons, or if they do, the slacking won't be this pronounced.

ETA: What Meaty Pop and FourKitties said. Yay for simulposting!

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Suddenly she realizes that amongst a crazy drunken schoolmarm, a navy swim instructor with a food fetish, a southern hick farmer, a porn star turned used car dealer, and a horny ex-football player, she won't be this strange outsider.

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Zem
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Yes, it's in writing. So is the speed limit. You can get a ticket for going 1mph over, but would it be fair?

Basically, it is in writing that a university reserves the right to rescind the admission if you don't do well. Obviously, the extreme is that you don't graduate. It is understood that you will slack off. It's called Senioritis. How much are you allowed to slack off? Technically, none. But it's understood some. So how was this kid supposed to know how much he was allowed to slack off? He went overboard, I admit, but even so there is a case.

What disturbs me is the idea that they would not let someone with a 3.5GPA and a 1600 SAT score in. Give me a break, it's not that great a school, they're just trying to make a point.

I disagree with a previous post, I believe this fellow would do very well in college. He's obviously intelligent, and therefore is most likely waiting for something to care about.

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Meaty Pop
Remembrances of Things Bass


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quote:
I disagree with a previous post, I believe this fellow would do very well in college. He's obviously intelligent, and therefore is most likely waiting for something to care about.
I won't change what I put before, but since I was in a rush when I typed up my previous response, I will clarify.

When the university accepted him, they thought they were getting a motivated individual with a 3.8 GPA. Then the last semester his GPA drops 3/10ths of a point and he barely passed his classes, meaning he barely graduated.

The university looks at this and wonders what exactly happened. They learn something they didn't know, he has no self motivation at all. If he was self-motivated, he would not have failed a class. The university is looking for students to accept that it feels will actually graduate from school. College is much more difficult than high school and this was an indicator that at this time, he was probably not mature to handle college.

So they place him on probabtion and schedule another interview, give him a chance to explain. He goes, and obviously was not able to convince them not to rescind his acceptance. In their eyes, he was not ready for college.

This of course has no bearing on how he would actually do in school, just how he presents himself to the school. Sometimes it's acceptable to just do the minimum, I know that all too well. But you should also be ready to accept the consequences if you don't even do that.

--------------------
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Don't drink and derive--know your limits

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HazyCosmicJive
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Meaty Pop:
They learn something they didn't know, he has no self motivation at all. If he was self-motivated, he would not have failed a class.

Precisely. I'll even go a step further: as I said in my post above, most high achievers aren't going to let their grades drop that much, even if they've already been admitted to college. This is because their grades and academics are important to them, a good indicator that they will continue to be high achievers in college.

A drop like this shows that for this student, academic performance is at best a means to an end. Once the end has been achieved (in this case college admissions), he sees no further purpose to high academic achievement. So what happens if he gets a good internship that leads to a full-time job before he graduates? Or if he decides that his social life is more important than his academics? Put bluntly, he has no pride in his academic achievement, and while he still may be be successful in life, he's a bad risk for a college.

I was a high achieving early admit to several colleges, and although I had a bit of senioritis, my pride wouldn't allow me to let my grades slip that much.

Edited to say things more clearly and succinctly.

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Suddenly she realizes that amongst a crazy drunken schoolmarm, a navy swim instructor with a food fetish, a southern hick farmer, a porn star turned used car dealer, and a horny ex-football player, she won't be this strange outsider.

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Bill
The Red and the Green Stamps


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I asked a question on the board a long time ago whether it was an urban legend that U.S. colleges sometimes revoke offers of admission for slackers like this. I was told by one of my high school teachers that one student in my area who slacked off was told that "they didn't want him." I found out that it does happen, and at one high school students are shown, as a warning, photocopies of actual letters from colleges revoking admissions.

I recall when I was high school age the admission offer was generally contingent on "satisfactory" academic performance. One of my friends, who then started slacking, said that that means he only has to get passing grades. Possibly now colleges are more explicit about what they expect.

quote:
Originally posted by Ursa Major:
Senior slacking is a tradition in American high schools. Right or wrong, the general assumption is that you're in once a university has accepted you no matter how much you goof off during your last semester of high school. Under that assumption, there's little to motivate a student to work very hard during that semester.

I've always wondered why in the U.S. high school students commonly apply to colleges during senior year and the colleges know their records only through the first quarter of senior year. Senior year, then, in all too many cases, when people are taking their most challenging courses and getting ready for college, becomes goofing-off time. I wonder why colleges can't wait until after the end of senior year to make admissions decisions.

And I agree, someone who would let his grades slide like that is not someone who is likely to be successful in college. I'd rather see his spot go to a C student who's at least trying and given a chance would buckle down and take advantage of the opportunity.

Thanks.

Bill

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Senior slacking as I've known it, both back when I went to highschool, and now at my daughter's highschool is different. It's a matter of taking the easiest cources possible, not getting poor grades in the classes one take. Even then, it's been my experience that high-achivers use their senior year to take AP classes which can count for college credit.

From the school's stanpoint, in addition to lack of motivation, it shows immaturity and arrogance. But worst of all, it shows laziness.

Beach...don't need no lazy students...Life!

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Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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mattie
Happy Holly Days


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i'm confused that someone with that high of an SAT score and GPA was only able to pass some of his classes without trying. someone who exhibits that amount of intelligence, you would think that he would have retained something from his other SEVEN semesters, and gotten at least C's. after all, you have to attend classes in high school. its almost as if he wiped away all previous knowledge for his last semester. that's very weird.

maybe its his evil twin....

is the UNC cut off GPA 3.5? if not, then i think that they may have a problem - after all, there has to be at least one other recruit out there that had one really bad semester - will they be subject to the same scrutiny?

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I don't want some pretty face to tell me pretty lies, all I want is someone to believe.

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STF
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That's funny stuff. I bet he didn't see that one coming.

As for arrogance I'd agree that he is every bit as guilty of it or more than the university.

What a smart guy he was!

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dewey
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by mattie mistoffelees 180:
i'm confused that someone with that high of an SAT score and GPA was only able to pass some of his classes without trying. someone who exhibits that amount of intelligence, you would think that he would have retained something from his other SEVEN semesters, and gotten at least C's. after all, you have to attend classes in high school. its almost as if he wiped away all previous knowledge for his last semester. that's very weird.


Actually, this is exactly what my step-son did. He did not attend classes and managed to get very poor grades in most classes and flunk senior English. The college he applied to was wise enough to not accept him in the first place despite very high SAT scores. He started his slump at the beginning of the year, but if he had waited until spring term I'm sure the college would have rescinded their offer. No college wants to waste their resources on a quitter.

dewey

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HazyCosmicJive
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by mattie mistoffelees 180:
is the UNC cut off GPA 3.5? if not, then i think that they may have a problem - after all, there has to be at least one other recruit out there that had one really bad semester - will they be subject to the same scrutiny?

Contrary to popular belief, even large public universities don't necessarily have "cut-offs" or "guarantees." Again offering my own employer as an example, we state clearly in our guidelines that we expect students to maintain consistent or improving grades throughout their high school career, and failure to do so will jeopardise the student's chances for admission, no matter how high the cumulative GPA and test scores are. If a student has a bad semester, s/he has to show us that s/he was able to come out of it. A bad semester sophomore year can be overcome by a consistently high junior year. A bad second semester senior year can obviously only be overcome by good college grades - students in a situation such as this will have to transfer.

We rescind very few admission offers, but certainly would have in this case. And yes, every student with nothing above a C senior year would receive the same scrutiny, even if they were 4.0 or higher before that.

Bill wants to know:
quote:
I've always wondered why in the U.S. high school students commonly apply to colleges during senior year and the colleges know their records only through the first quarter of senior year. Senior year, then, in all too many cases, when people are taking their most challenging courses and getting ready for college, becomes goofing-off time. I wonder why colleges can't wait until after the end of senior year to make admissions decisions.
It's because there isn't time after senior year is over (June) to make decisions and get students prepared to start in August. Now, I don't think that making students wait a year is a bad idea (gives them some time to experience the real world and perhaps grow up a tad), but "the way it's done" here pushes students into starting college immediately after high school.

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Suddenly she realizes that amongst a crazy drunken schoolmarm, a navy swim instructor with a food fetish, a southern hick farmer, a porn star turned used car dealer, and a horny ex-football player, she won't be this strange outsider.

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mattie
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by mattie mistoffelees 180:

is the UNC cut off GPA 3.5? if not, then i think that they may have a problem - after all, there has to be at least one other recruit out there that had one really bad semester - will they be subject to the same scrutiny?

i realized AFTER i posted this that, if the bad semester had occurred before the student was accepted, they would have been fully aware of the problem and already addressed it.

kinda like buying a car - if you know that the brakes need replaced before you pay for it, and have already factored that in, then great. if you buy the car thinking its in working order, drive off the lot, and the doors fall off, then you were conned.

i wonder, though, is UNC one of those look the other way uni's when it comes to influnential alumni's children? i hope for their sake they have maintained exacting standards in admission so this guy doesn't get in.

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I don't want some pretty face to tell me pretty lies, all I want is someone to believe.

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Bill
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by HazyCosmicJive:
Bill wants to know:
quote:
I've always wondered why in the U.S. high school students commonly apply to colleges during senior year and the colleges know their records only through the first quarter of senior year. Senior year, then, in all too many cases, when people are taking their most challenging courses and getting ready for college, becomes goofing-off time. I wonder why colleges can't wait until after the end of senior year to make admissions decisions.
It's because there isn't time after senior year is over (June) to make decisions and get students prepared to start in August. Now, I don't think that making students wait a year is a bad idea (gives them some time to experience the real world and perhaps grow up a tad), but "the way it's done" here pushes students into starting college immediately after high school. [/QB]
Thanks for the reply.

I have to agree, I'd like to see the whole senior year considered even if that makes people wait a year. And it would give students a bit more time to think about their career and college choices. Asking a 17-year-old to choose a college and tentative career goals seems like asking a bit much, in fact it might be hard for a lot of 30-year-olds. It seems to me that we put too much emphasis on getting from point A to point B as soon as possible (the young man in another thread starting medical school a prime example) and we could think a bit more about where we're going.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks.

Bill

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Chimera
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I Disagree (do I take a square?). I don't think kids should have to wait a year. It might be good for some but I think it would cause more harm than good. The students are already in the habit of studing and going to classes. Heck year around school supports say even a few months in the summer causes problems. Also what are they going to do with that year? Study and contemplate their lives? Mooch off their parents and watch Springer? Try to go out and get a job (one that will probably require the ability to ask "do you want fries with that?". One reason I went to college is because I didn't want to take such a job. I can't see how learning to work a cash register would've made me any more prepared for school but I'm darn sure my parents would'nt let me sit around and do nothing. Also if you got a halfway decent job or just comfortable slacking it would be hard to go back to the educational enviroment and many probably wouldn't.

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What is the use of women?"
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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by mattie mistoffelees 180:
...i wonder, though, is UNC one of those look the other way uni's when it comes to influnential alumni's children? i hope for their sake they have maintained exacting standards in admission so this guy doesn't get in.

And which Unis would those be?

--------------------
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Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
I Disagree (do I take a square?). I don't think kids should have to wait a year. It might be good for some but I think it would cause more harm than good. The students are already in the habit of studing and going to classes. Heck year around school supports say even a few months in the summer causes problems. Also what are they going to do with that year? Study and contemplate their lives? Mooch off their parents and watch Springer? Try to go out and get a job (one that will probably require the ability to ask "do you want fries with that?". One reason I went to college is because I didn't want to take such a job. I can't see how learning to work a cash register would've made me any more prepared for school but I'm darn sure my parents would'nt let me sit around and do nothing. Also if you got a halfway decent job or just comfortable slacking it would be hard to go back to the educational enviroment and many probably wouldn't.

I couldn't disagree more.

Far from every high school graduate is ready to attend university. I certainly wasn't.

And, lots of 18 year olds do not know what they want to do with their lives. Why spend four years getting a degree and then finding out you hate your field? Or can't get a job as a poet?

I think more people should wait to get an education. I'm glad I did.

[Edited to add: I think it is just as important to know what you do *not* want to do as it is to know what you do want to do. Sometimes, nothing but actual life experience can tell you that.]

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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brick
Happy Holly Days


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I don't think he should win the lawsuit, but I think this sucks, at least provided that his final numbers are within UNC's acceptance range (and surely they are).

You're supposed to blow off the last semester of your senior year once you've gotten into the college of your choice. Who knows when you'll get another chance? After this it's college, dentistry school, mortgage, kids, death.

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First of Two
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Does it say WHY he had such a lousy semester, or are we just assuming he was goofing off?

I'm just asking because I had a lousy last semester MY senior year, but it had nothing to do with goofing off.

Fortunately, PSU understood the circumstances.

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MaryWebGirl
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I'd like to know how many other students had their acceptances revoked by UNC because of poor academic performances late in their senior years. Or just how often this happens in general.
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HazyCosmicJive
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brick posits:
quote:
I don't think he should win the lawsuit, but I think this sucks, at least provided that his final numbers are within UNC's acceptance range (and surely they are).
This assumes that it's all about the numbers, which it isn't. While there are still a few schools that just plug GPA and test scores into a formula to admit, most look at the whole application.

Funnily enough, when parents think you're just looking at GPA and test scores, they complain that you're just treating their child as a number or a statistic. When you look at the whole application, they complain because their kid is admissable "by the numbers."
quote:
You're supposed to blow off the last semester of your senior year once you've gotten into the college of your choice.
I don't know a single selective institution that will stand for a drop like this student's. As I and others have said above, sure, you can drop a little (from As to Bs), but you just can't start failing. Theoretically, you're "supposed" to blow off the last semester of college, too. But grad schools don't like that too much.

First of Mroww asks:
quote:
Does it say WHY he had such a lousy semester, or are we just assuming he was goofing off?
The article vaguely says that he had health problems related to medication for his ADD. It also says that UNC listened to his explanation and found it unsatisfactory. Having been in the field, I suspect it would have had to have been a really poor explanation to not have had the appeal granted, or perhaps UNC has a policy not to admit anyone who fails a senior class. Either way is legitimate, in my view. You can't expect to start failing and not cause eyebrows to be raised.

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Suddenly she realizes that amongst a crazy drunken schoolmarm, a navy swim instructor with a food fetish, a southern hick farmer, a porn star turned used car dealer, and a horny ex-football player, she won't be this strange outsider.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Mroww:
Does it say WHY he had such a lousy semester, or are we just assuming he was goofing off?

I'm just asking because I had a lousy last semester MY senior year, but it had nothing to do with goofing off.

Fortunately, PSU understood the circumstances.

The kid & his family now say it was medical, but he apparently did not bother to tell the college this. Again according to the article linked above, UNC had him in for an interview to explain the decline in his grades before they rescinded his admission.

quote:
They say Davis didn't give Edmonson an adequate opportunity to explain what happened during his senior year, or to detail health problems the student had related to medicine he was taking for attention-deficit disorder.

Reached Tuesday, Davis declined to comment. However, in one of four affidavits from UNC admissions officers filed in superior court Tuesday, Davis said Edmonson had plenty of time to explain the grade decline....

"He looked at his [grade] transcript and responded to my question of what happened to him with philosophical quotes but nothing directly related to my questions," Davis wrote in his affidavit.

So the kid was given a chance to explain, but instead he blew off the interviewer. Sounds like they gave him more than enough leeway, but he didn't take them seriously. And if he didn't take an admissions interview seriously, why, then, should they think he will take college seriously?

Four Kitties

Edited for punkchuashun

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Tampa Rob
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Mroww:
Does it say WHY he had such a lousy semester, or are we just assuming he was goofing off?

I'm just asking because I had a lousy last semester MY senior year, but it had nothing to do with goofing off.

Fortunately, PSU understood the circumstances.

I had a miserable last semester, not due to goofing off, which followed a very good junior (and most of senior year), after horrid frosh and soph. campaigns.

Luckily, the schools I applied to (a couple very good ones) accepted my explanation, and while I ended up going the JUCO route prior to a four year school (money), I always appreciated the thoughtfulness of the institutions in question.

HazyCosmicJive, I hope you hear the stories you listen to - 17/18 is a tough age, and IMHO, college admission shouldn't simply be a race, or another status symbol, or a numbers game (not implying you consider it such).

But, I'm starting to wonder if anyone on this thread (or sometimes, this board) went through the brutal uncertanties that come with family issues, health issues, money issues, etc. at that time of life.

It's one thing to be tough, and to follow the rules, and to have high standards.....it's another to be inflexible.

TR

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Tampa Rob:
But, I'm starting to wonder if anyone on this thread (or sometimes, this board) went through the brutal uncertanties that come with family issues, health issues, money issues, etc. at that time of life.

Let's see. During my senior year in high school my father lost his job of 22 years, my mother's mother was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer & had to have a radical double mastectomy (she lived), my best friend's mother's cancer came out of remission (she died), and I worked 25 hours per week on top of school.

My grades were excellent, I bumped my class rank up by six places by graduation (all those other senior slumpers!).

Freshman year of college, on the other hand, most of the crises were resolved one way or another. First time away from home and I ran wild, drank too much, didn't go to class, flunked out.

Vassar College said, in essence, "take a year off, you've got a lot of growing up to do, but when you are ready please come back there will be a place for you here."

And I did, and I did, and there was.

Four "proud to wear the rose and gray" Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
HazyCosmicJive
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Tampa Rob:
HazyCosmicJive, I hope you hear the stories you listen to

I don't read them myself - they're all reviewed by either an associate director or a director, but I can tell you that at the school I work for it is VERY hard not to get a rescission appeal accepted. We'll even take "I goofed off, I screwed up, I learned my lesson, I'm sorry, it won't happen again." You know, as long as they're honest. On the side, I'll note that I don't necessarily agree with this policy. Absent extenuating circumstances, I don't see why anyone else should have a rougher time of it than I did, and I managed to pull it off. In addition, a good number of these kids that drop and get rescinded are privileged kids with a sense of entitlement. I have no sympathy. If there IS a story, on the other hand, I'll listen to it.

quote:
IMHO, college admission shouldn't simply be a race, or another status symbol, or a numbers game (not implying you consider it such).
This is precisely why things like trend need to be taken into account. If it were just a numbers game, then a 3.5/1600 would most certainly have been enough for the kid to keep his spot at UNC. But because the entire application and academic history are important, he didn't.

An admissions office doesn't want to admit a kid that's going to flunk out. No matter what the story is, if the matter isn't resolved, then we must assume that the most recent academic records are indicative of how the student will perform in college. I get a lot of "I know he has straight Cs, but he has ADD." Well, I'm sorry, but his ADD isn't going to magically go away once he gets to college, and if it wasn't controlled enough to give him a competitive high school GPA, then he isn't going to do well here.

quote:
But, I'm starting to wonder if anyone on this thread (or sometimes, this board) went through the brutal uncertanties that come with family issues, health issues, money issues, etc. at that time of life.
Other than being poor, having an alcoholic father, having parents who fought constantly, having a sister who was a victim of a violent crime and then diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and working about 20 hours a week, I was relatively undisturbed in my late adolescence. I chose Michigan over Georgetown and Northwestern and maintained a 3.77 there before transfering to Rice University, from which I graduated cum laude. Since I don't think I'm better than anyone else, I refuse to believe that it's such a struggle for some people.

I won't even get into my best friend's kidney transplant and his story. Suffice it to say that he did fine, too.

ETA: Great post, FourKitties. Your story reflects exactly what I believe.

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Suddenly she realizes that amongst a crazy drunken schoolmarm, a navy swim instructor with a food fetish, a southern hick farmer, a porn star turned used car dealer, and a horny ex-football player, she won't be this strange outsider.

Posts: 701 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Tampa Rob
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Whoa! Let me state again, I'm not impugning specific members of the board, or either of you two (4 kitties, HCJ).

quote:
Freshman year of college, on the other hand, most of the crises were resolved one way or another. First time away from home and I ran wild, drank too much, didn't go to class, flunked out.
I'm glad you got another chance, and happy you did well..your HS experience sounds familiar.


quote:
Other than being poor, having an alcoholic father, having parents who fought constantly, having a sister who was a victim of a violent crime and then diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and working about 20 hours a week, I was relatively undisturbed in my late adolescence. I chose Michigan over Georgetown and Northwestern and maintained a 3.77 there before transfering to Rice University, from which I graduated cum laude. Since I don't think I'm better than anyone else, I refuse to believe that it's such a struggle for some people.
But it IS such a struggle for some people. I feel confident that you understand that, given the nature of your replies previously. Not everyone has your fortitude, or strength of will. Don't punish them for not being as strong as you are. Expect great things, yes - but don't check your empathy at the door. Again, I feel like I've made a mess of this point [Embarrassed] , and I think we agree for the most part.

I'm not going to run down the issues I had, but I guess, in the final analysis, I was just trying to sound a cautionary note to those who have some influence - If it came off as a flame, mea culpa.

Side note - I grew up in SE Michigan, am a DIEHARD Michigan Wolverines fan (family went there), so I applaud your choice of schools! My son and daughter have the jerseys ready for the Football opener.

Tampa "One regret in academic life? Not going to UM" Rob

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HazyCosmicJive
The First USA Noel


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Tampa Rob, I didn't take your post as a flame, and I didn't realise until re-reading my post how defensive I sounded. Apologies.

I'll tell you that it gets frustrating that everyone has an excuse, nobody is accountable, and nothing is ever anyone's fault. Honestly, you get a bit jaded when you get 20 calls a day with the same sob story.

Also, as I mentioned above, you almost have to try really hard to not get a rescission appealed. Basically, you have to ask and come up with some explanation, even if it's just "Yes, I slacked off." That's why I really don't have any sympathy at all for the kid in the OP. According to UNC, he treated the whole thing as a joke.

Believe me, colleges don't rescind for fun. That's a tuition that won't get paid, after all.

BTW, I don't know how much I can bond with you over the Wolverines thing, seeing as how I left Michigan. [Embarrassed] [Wink] I'm a die-hard Owl now. [Smile]

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Suddenly she realizes that amongst a crazy drunken schoolmarm, a navy swim instructor with a food fetish, a southern hick farmer, a porn star turned used car dealer, and a horny ex-football player, she won't be this strange outsider.

Posts: 701 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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Tampa Rob, I also did not take offense. Goodness knows there are plenty of people in the White House, oops I mean "in the world", walking around with a sense of entitlement. And since, until fairly recently, college was often restricted to the "entitled" and well-to-do, it was within reason to question. Not reasonable to generalize, mind you [Razz] , but reasonable to question.

And since Vassar has no football team, I follow the family tradition and root for Yale, which is pretty tough living in a Harvard town, let me tell ya!

Four "Bulldog, Bulldog, rah rah rah" Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Tampa Rob
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Whew! Feel better now.

It's indimidating when you feel you're losing an argument you didn't want to be in, especially with two highly educated subject matter experts. [Big Grin]

See, now I'm just fawning. Time to go.

Tampa "Used to being reprimanded by smart women, sister is a PhD" Rob

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Geez, this kid's a whiner. Oh no, he didn't get straight into a 4-year school! Now he's going to have to get his 2-year degree first, and you know what that means... no horribly over-populated lecture classes where you're just a nameless face in the crowd, no chance of getting a freak-show roommate whose interests have nothing in common with yours, no general sense of anomie...

Of course, that's likely not how he's seeing it. Still, though, I fail to understand why so many people think that high school is the be-all and the end-all of things. Sure, you're not as likely to get into an institution like Harvard with a 2-year degree, but this guy was going to UNC, and UNC ain't Harvard. Overall, you're much better off cutting your university teeth at a less expensive 2-year school. It's my experience that the difference in quality of teaching is grossly overrated between JC and "real" college; most of the folks who teach frosh and soph classes at 4-year schools are grad students or else profs who got their tenure due to the quality of their research, not their teaching.

College is about learning how to think. It can also be about acquiring knowledge necessary to succeed at a given field. That's it. I really don't think that it's about "growing up" in the classic sense. You do that when you're done with college (temporarily or permanently) and have to get a job.

John Craven

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Give big space to the festive dog that makes sport in roadway. Avoid entanglement of dog with wheel spokes.

Posts: 4267 | From: Seattle | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Tampa Rob
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Slick, speaking as a two year JUCO guy prior to matriculation, I'm right with ya!

TR

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DesertRat
The Red and the Green Stamps


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This is jsut my two cents-- take it for what it's worth.

I understand the concept of senioritis to a certain extant, but I have to agree with most people here that the "senioritis defense" does NOT cover simply giving up and completely gaffing off everything. Though this kid is obviously extremely intelligent, his actions during his final HS semester demonstrate two things-- a lack of any reasonable work ethic, and a strong lack of maturity.

And, as we've all learned (some the hard way, including myself), it doesn't matter HOW much raw intelligence you have in college-- work ethic and maturity are the keys to success.

This kid pretty blatantly telegraphed his future intentions with his actions, and I think the school in question was quite justified in telling him to take a hike. As one snopester suggested, let him do a semester or two at a JC and earn his way back into the fold-- maybe he'll grow up a bit.

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