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Author Topic: I am a racist plantation owner who wants to kill all blacks
Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
I guess I don't agree that how my friend's father reacted to the segregation thing made him not a victim. He survived it, and he did well despite it, but he was still a victim of it.

That is my point. He was a victim, but did not adopt a "victim mentality"

Being a victim means they have suffered injustice.

Having a victim mentality means they have given up control of their own destiny to external powers (eg. "The Man").

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"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I think what Damian is digging at, AnglRdr, is whether your friend's father believes that HE is a victim or not. Is his Glass of Life half full or half empty.

There are those who will be handed a lobster and will then bitch that it wasn't big enough... and those who will fight for a crumb and then cut it in quarters that three others can eat from their great banquet as well. It is all in the person that lives it, and we, as outsiders can do little as to what and how they feel about what they have or don't have.

I was once a huge proponent of the "We're equal, shut the Hell up" crowd, but a college class and a spectacular instructor taught me that there JUST MIGHT be a little more involved.

Damian, slavery may have died out in practical application 150 years ago, but the echoes and results of it are still seen. We have a new kid at my unit - who happens to be a 19 year old black male from Detroit (just outside of Six-mile Road, which even the Hood calls the Hood). He has no money for college because his father couldn't get into management at the company he works for because of his skin color (or at least that is the allegation, but I have seen no reason to not believe this kid). His father had to work in factories because HIS father couldn't get the GI bill, because he was black (pre-WWII). HIS father worked as a scrap collector because his skin color wouldn't let him in a door of ANY factory in Detroit. HIS father worked picking crops in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana because his skin color kept him from "cluttering" up the streets of Detroit. HIS father picked crops down south before moving to the Detroit area because his skin color kept him from getting any other job, and he thought he stood a better chance up north. And HIS father picked crops in the antebellum South after being freed from slavery by President Lincoln.

This kid obviously sees his glass as half full - but I can very easily see where it is ONLY half full because of his family's treatment after "everyone was equal".

We are all equal - at least on paper - but when something as benign as an earlobe 'spreader' or whatever they are called, can keep a person from getting a job, it is easy to see that we are not necessarily truly equal. If a phreaking earring can be used to separate us, what about tans - or lack of them? It is just way too easy...

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Having a victim mentality means they have given up control of their own destiny to external powers (eg. "The Man").

And yet..."The Man" still managed to keep him from earning the money that an engineer makes...go figure...

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NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
Having a victim mentality means they have given up control of their own destiny to external powers (eg. "The Man").

But do you believe that people hold complete control over their destinies?

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
But do you believe that people hold complete control over their destinies?

While we do not have complete control of our destiny, the victim mentality tends to relinquish all control.

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"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
But do you believe that people hold complete control over their destinies?

While we do not have complete control of our destiny, the victim mentality tends to relinquish all control.
"All" is such an absolute word. When used in conjunction with destiny, it becomes rather meaningless. One, for example, would not relinquish all control over what they will eat.

I understand what you're saying; I don't think it happens in any sort of significant numbers to really make a big deal of it.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Because of the huge disparity in salaries between engineer and high school math teacher, in your estimation can one make the argument that my friend himself was victimized by the racist policies that prevented his father, a member of a previous generation, from pursuing the degree path of his choice?

One can make the argument, but it's not a valid argument.

pinqy

Why is it invalid? My friend's father's income as a teacher was insufficient to be able to put my friend through college. Had my friend's father been an engineer, he may well have been able to afford to send my friend to college (unlike Troodon, I do not think a parent has the responsibility to finance his/her child's education; I am just using this as a for-instance, though the circumstances are all factual).
Racism prevented your friend's father from doing what he wanted to do. No other reason. Your friend couldn't afford college because his father wasnt' wealthy enough. Well that's true for millions of people for millions of different reasons. It makes no difference to your friend's circumstances why his father wasn't wealthy enough. Let's take two kids, both the sons of math teachers, growing up next door to each other, fathers making the exact amount of money...basically everything identical. Except that one father became a math teacher because of racism and the other didn't. How is the son of the victim worse off than the other son?

Now, in Malruhn's example, each generation itself suffered from racism. That's a different story. (although since there was no GI Bill prior to WWII, I don't see how anyone could have been denied it only because of race).

pinqy

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Because of the huge disparity in salaries between engineer and high school math teacher, in your estimation can one make the argument that my friend himself was victimized by the racist policies that prevented his father, a member of a previous generation, from pursuing the degree path of his choice?

One can make the argument, but it's not a valid argument.

pinqy

Why is it invalid? My friend's father's income as a teacher was insufficient to be able to put my friend through college. Had my friend's father been an engineer, he may well have been able to afford to send my friend to college (unlike Troodon, I do not think a parent has the responsibility to finance his/her child's education; I am just using this as a for-instance, though the circumstances are all factual).
Racism prevented your friend's father from doing what he wanted to do. No other reason. Your friend couldn't afford college because his father wasnt' wealthy enough. Well that's true for millions of people for millions of different reasons. It makes no difference to your friend's circumstances why his father wasn't wealthy enough. Let's take two kids, both the sons of math teachers, growing up next door to each other, fathers making the exact amount of money...basically everything identical. Except that one father became a math teacher because of racism and the other didn't. How is the son of the victim worse off than the other son?

The financial considerations are secondary. If one chose to become a math teacher and did, that is one thing; if one chose to become an engineer and could not, so settled for being a math teacher, I think the fallout doesn't necessarily end with that individual. Because my friend's father was unable to pursue his dreams, my friend was subsequently unable to pursue his.

quote:
Now, in Malruhn's example, each generation itself suffered from racism. That's a different story. (although since there was no GI Bill prior to WWII, I don't see how anyone could have been denied it only because of race).

pinqy

I think that you underestimate the residual effects of racism. And the effect the GI Bill had on black WWII veterans (which my friend's father is, by the way) is very different for their white counterparts.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Charmed I'm Sure
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
quote:
But "previously disadvantaged" and "equal" when applied to a class of people cannot coexist. If the disadvantaged are given incentives to "rise above" the errors of the past, then they are no longer "equal". In some cases, they become "advantaged".
[Confused] How does that work?

Rising above the errors of the past doesn't put them in a better position, especially since the errors of the past left them in a worse position to begin with.

I think the key words here are "In some cases" and that probably isn't exact enough. What he possibly meant was "In some circumstances".

There are circumstances where it beneficial to be from a "previously disadvantaged" group of people.

e.g. In New Zealand if you are part Maori (native New Zealander) you get discounts from the government on your university fees.

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Not long ago I was on the bus and near me was a group of young black men. It seemed that every other word out of their mouths was some variant m@th@f@@k. Including one of them saying "I can't get a m.f.-ing job because all these m.f.-ing whites are such m.f.-ing racists."

My thought was, "Perhaps if you cleaned up your language, you'd find that the level of racism would go down immeasurably." Of course, I didn't say it; I didn't want to get thumped.

This is an extreme example, of course, but--while not denying that racism certainly exists!--one wonders how many times it is used as an excuse?

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Why do you assume he swears a lot during job interviews?
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
Why do you assume he swears a lot during job interviews?

Apparently there's a line in his Curriculum Mother****ing Vitae which says "Shitting references available on cocking request," and that's really counted against him.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Bill
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
Why do you assume he swears a lot during job interviews?

It's a question of *habit,* not just consciously acting or talking a certain way on job interviews.

A person whose every other word is a swear word hasn't yet mastered the task of talking and acting like a professional. And this may carry through on job interviews. Someone like this, more likely than not, does not have the mindset of a professional.

And that negative attitude ("I know I'm not going to get the job because . . . ") shows through on interviews as well.

Thanks.

Bill

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Bill, I have what is called colloquially a "potty mouth." I swear with frequency, regularity, and aplomb.

Except when I am in situations where such behavior is not acceptable, such as work, at church, or in front of the children.

I am not saying that the man you overheard was as adept at altering his behavior to suit the situation he found himself in as most adults are, but it is hardly a difficult to master skill, and it certainly isn't rare.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Bill:
quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
Why do you assume he swears a lot during job interviews?

It's a question of *habit,* not just consciously acting or talking a certain way on job interviews.

A person whose every other word is a swear word hasn't yet mastered the task of talking and acting like a professional. And this may carry through on job interviews. Someone like this, more likely than not, does not have the mindset of a professional.



That's a pretty quick judgement to make on someone based on a conversation they have on the bus. Not to mention that I don't know of any causal link between use of the term "mother****er" in one's own time among one's own group of friends and unprofessionalism. Perhaps there's been some study done that shows that people who use the term "mother****er" very often are less likely to have a professional mindset, and I've just missed it. Or perhaps, and I rather think this is more likely, you're over-reaching quite dramatically.

quote:
[qbAnd that negative attitude ("I know I'm not going to get the job because . . . ") shows through on interviews as well.
[/qb]

But making the observation that he hasn't been able to get a job (because of the mother****ing racists, of course) doesn't mean that he goes into interviews with that negative attitude, does it? It's merely an observation on the fact that he hasn't hitherto been able to get a job. Once again, I rather think you're over-reaching.

This is not to say that this young man is particularly professional, or has a particularly positive attitude, but to make any kind of judgement on either of those based on an overheard conversation between him and his friends doesn't really hold any logical water.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Bill:
A person whose every other word is a swear word hasn't yet mastered the task of talking and acting like a professional. And this may carry through on job interviews. Someone like this, more likely than not, does not have the mindset of a professional.

What a load of bollocks.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Flowy Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill:
A person whose every other word is a swear word hasn't yet mastered the task of talking and acting like a professional. And this may carry through on job interviews. Someone like this, more likely than not, does not have the mindset of a professional.

What a load of bollocks.
I don't know if that's fair. I would say it's "a bunch of cocking shit-wank," myself.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
Not long ago I was on the bus and near me was a group of young black men. It seemed that every other word out of their mouths was some variant m@th@f@@k. Including one of them saying "I can't get a m.f.-ing job because all these m.f.-ing whites are such m.f.-ing racists."

My thought was, "Perhaps if you cleaned up your language, you'd find that the level of racism would go down immeasurably." Of course, I didn't say it; I didn't want to get thumped.

This is an extreme example, of course, but--while not denying that racism certainly exists!--one wonders how many times it is used as an excuse?

And I've heard the same language from White Boys. Except in this case, they're complaining that all the MFBSKing women and MFKBSKing minorities are getting the jobs because a white man just can't get ahead.

Ignorance and bad language is pretty equal opportunity.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Bill
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:


quote:
[qbAnd that negative attitude ("I know I'm not going to get the job because . . . ") shows through on interviews as well.


But making the observation that he hasn't been able to get a job (because of the mother****ing racists, of course) doesn't mean that he goes into interviews with that negative attitude, does it? It's merely an observation on the fact that he hasn't hitherto been able to get a job. Once again, I rather think you're over-reaching.

This is not to say that this young man is particularly professional, or has a particularly positive attitude, but to make any kind of judgement on either of those based on an overheard conversation between him and his friends doesn't really hold any logical water. [/QB]

I really believe that it has a lot to do with confidence. He expressed a belief that he can't get a job because of his race.

I was taught that if you go out there with confidence - you feel good about yourself and your background - you think you're going to be successful - you just might be.

If, on the other hand, you're not confident, you're nervous, you're desperate (all ways of thinking you're not going to get the job), employers can sense that, and they won't hire you.

I'm not saying the world is totally fair and that the jobs always go to the right people. I've been on the receiving end as well by not being hired for the most bogus reasons (a small accounting firm would not grant me an interview because they didn't want people from the top of the class) but that doesn't excuse me from putting my best foot forward every time and going in there with the attitude that I'm going to get the job.

Just had to get that in.

Thanks.

Bill

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ParaDiddle
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties:
When you can show me that there are no more racists in the US, and that the long-term effects of centuries of racism have been utterly eradicated, then I will concede your point. Although huge strides have been made in the last 40 years, we ain't there yet. But do come talk to me when blacks are represented at all income levels, all educational levels, all housing distributions, and all healthcare quality measures in the same proportions as whites, and we can take up your point again.

Four Kitties

It's posts like this that frequently reassure me that my input would be redundant once the active topics page gets "ottercreekified".


quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
{edit}. . .I would say it's "a bunch of cocking shit-wank," myself.

I just love that colourful lilt that you UKers apply to our language.

- P

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Freshman
We Three Blings


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I've seen this video before, it's rather creepy. Richard W, what do you mean by the global plantation thing?

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"High-Five!" - Borat

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Freshman:
I've seen this video before, it's rather creepy. Richard W, what do you mean by the global plantation thing?

What, that he almost had a point?

Not sure how much of this is fact and how much is a false impression based on my limited understanding and knowledge, but I had the impression that black people in America often found themselves worse off immediately after the abolition of slavery. Promises to them weren't fulfilled, the plantation owners suddenly had no incentive to look after them because they were paid workers rather than property that would cost money to replace, and people often refused to employ them on racial grounds.

As well as this, though, the immediate and obvious inequality had been abolished, and so the original slave-owners and other people who'd been involved in systematic racial discrimination or just straight individual racism could easily argue that people were now equal ("but separate", anyway) and so they had no obligation to help anybody in particular or change their ways at all.

And the anti-slavery campaigners would think they had won, and so (consciously or unconsciously) there would be a tendency to become complicit in the new situation - either they wouldn't notice the new conditions and problems, or might think "we've helped you enough; can't you get on with it yourself now?". There was no obvious cause like slavery to attack - just a lot of individual attitudes.

I can see that those things might make a freed slave feel that, from having a group of people who were obviously fighting his or her cause and trying to improve conditions, suddenly these people had gone and everybody was against them. This is what I took the "global plantation" comment to mean - the actual plantation might have gone, but suddenly the whole world was a worse "plantation", where black people could be exploited and pushed into even worse conditions.

Like I said, some of that's probably arguable and I'm hardly an expert in any of this. But there's definitely a point there somewhere. Some of the arguments are still being used in this thread, after all.

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Freshman
We Three Blings


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That's true: racism didn't really change once slavery ended unforutnately

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"High-Five!" - Borat

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Mostly right, Richard, though of course reality is a little more complicated. The slaves were freed, but had little money, no home, few if any skills. There were early attempts at equality , the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and 1871, the [url=the 14th and 15th Ammendendments to the Constution) and the Civil Rights Act of 1875 which made segregation and discrimination illegal. But it was overturned in 1883. IIRC most Jim Crow laws weren't enacted until the 1890's. Most of all this hinges on the end of the Reconstruction in the late 1870's.

pinqy

--------------------
Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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Arriah
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Flowy Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill:
A person whose every other word is a swear word hasn't yet mastered the task of talking and acting like a professional. And this may carry through on job interviews. Someone like this, more likely than not, does not have the mindset of a professional.

What a load of bollocks.
Actually, I think he's got it about right. I know quite a few successful, professional black men of varying ages and have yet to hear any of them use the term m*****f***er in even the most casual of situations. They behave like professionals all the time because that's what professional people do, they recognize that even what you do in your off time affects your career.

Conversely, I have yet to see a man (or woman), of any race, from the type of crowd Bill described show up at an office and turn out to be an engineer or lawyer or any other kind of professional. I think his conclusion that the mfer-every-other-word crowd and the successful professional crowd are two very distinct groups is pretty accurate.

I'm sure that the former is capable of growing up and becoming the latter but not without some modification of their vocabulary.

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Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself
Rebecca

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unklesamta
Deck the Malls


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Well then you have never laid eyes on me. I am a social worker, and that may not be as hoity toity as an engineer, however I am required to work in a very professional manner on several levels, including interacting with city officials and the court system.

But if you heard me shooting pool with my buddies on after-hours, trust me, you would blush. i make sailors blush. I also have a nearly 2-year old son, who repeats everything I say, and I do not curse around him.

It can be turned on and off. To think otherwise is to be ignorant and to reinforce negative steroetypes.

Wonder if what bothers people about those gentleman on the bus is that they may have had a point?

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

Posts: 457 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Arriah
The First USA Noel


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Then I would say you are one of a very small minority. Most people that swear frequently in one situation will slip up at least occasionally, in other, inappropriate situations.

If I were an interviewer and had happened to be in the same place shooting pool, and heard you swearing with your buddies (same for the kids on the bus) no matter how professional you were in the interview, I would be wondering in the back of my head when that language would slip out on the job. If I also interviwed another equally qualified candidate that I hadn't heard swearing the day before, they would likely get the job instead.

So, yes, the people on the bus did have a point but it's a problem of their own making.

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Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself
Rebecca

Posts: 682 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
unklesamta
Deck the Malls


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Why do you get to dictate what I am allowed to do in my out-of-work time?

Unless I routinely engage in criminal activity that would perhaps get me locked-up, and not able to fulfill the obligations to my job, why do you get to determine me unworthy because I swear at pool balls?

And I assure you, I am not in the minority.

I have had occasion to attend a few Eagle's games in a very nice part of the stadium, the part where professionals (see engineers, not social workers) can afford to sit, and I assure you, foul language was used freely.

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

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Arriah
The First USA Noel


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I'm not saying what you can do on your own time, I'm saying that what you choose to do affects your career.

Uttering the occasional swear word at a pool ball or bad sports play isn't a huge deal. Uttering a solid stream of curse words as a sentance is. Given the choice to hire two equally qualified people, one that I know is capable of swearing every other word in a sentence (like the original example) and one that I've never heard swear at all, I know who I'd choose.

As an employer, I'm taking a risk with every single person I hire and as an interviewer, my job is to lower that risk as much as possible. If I was interviewing for a social worker that was going to be interacting within the court system, I wouldn't hire someone that I was afraid would call the judge a mfer if he didn't give the ruling we wanted. If I heard you use a sentance like in Bill's original post before interviewing you that's exactally what I would be afraid of.

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Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself
Rebecca

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unklesamta
Deck the Malls


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Sorry doesn't cut it.

You are not allowed to make that decision as an employer. You have to limit your decision to be based on the interview and the references supplied by the candidate.

It is precisely why we have had to limit interview questions and make some of them unethical and illegal. You know, like you cannot ask age, maritial status, or sexual preferences questions?

What I do in my free time has no bearing on my job performance.

And people who release curse-laden tirades against anything do not automatically disqualify themselves from being professional when professionalism is needed.

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

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Arriah
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by unklesam's under the boardwalk:
You have to limit your decision to be based on the interview and the references supplied by the candidate.

It is precisely why we have had to limit interview questions and make some of them unethical and illegal.

That's not true at all. I couldn't refuse to hire you because the people you or the people you were playing pool with are black or Catholic or male ( list ). But as an interviewer I can use my own judgement and any outside knowledge I have. If I'm feeling cranky, I could refuse to hire you because you're wearing brown shoes and I don't like brown shoes. Shoe color and outside of work vocabulary are not legally protected traits. Legally, when interviewing, I could ask you if you swear frequently and refuse to hire you if you say yes. Having seen (general) you swearing the day before would save me from asking that question.

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Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself
Rebecca

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frogpond
Jingle Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by unklesam's under the boardwalk:
Sorry doesn't cut it.

You are not allowed to make that decision as an employer. You have to limit your decision to be based on the interview and the references supplied by the candidate.

It is precisely why we have had to limit interview questions and make some of them unethical and illegal. You know, like you cannot ask age, maritial status, or sexual preferences questions?

What I do in my free time has no bearing on my job performance.

And people who release curse-laden tirades against anything do not automatically disqualify themselves from being professional when professionalism is needed.

If you believe this to be true, why are students being warned about the content of their Facebook and MySpace profiles?

In the real world how you conduct yourself outside your job certainly can and does have an affect on your professional life.

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So many books, so little time.

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Bill
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Arriah:
quote:
Originally posted by Flowy Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill:
A person whose every other word is a swear word hasn't yet mastered the task of talking and acting like a professional. And this may carry through on job interviews. Someone like this, more likely than not, does not have the mindset of a professional.

What a load of bollocks.
Actually, I think he's got it about right. I know quite a few successful, professional black men of varying ages and have yet to hear any of them use the term m*****f***er in even the most casual of situations. They behave like professionals all the time because that's what professional people do, they recognize that even what you do in your off time affects your career.

Conversely, I have yet to see a man (or woman), of any race, from the type of crowd Bill described show up at an office and turn out to be an engineer or lawyer or any other kind of professional. I think his conclusion that the mfer-every-other-word crowd and the successful professional crowd are two very distinct groups is pretty accurate.

I'm sure that the former is capable of growing up and becoming the latter but not without some modification of their vocabulary.

Now that you mention it, this is pretty much what I see every day.

On the train coming in to work I see young black men (and some women) shouting and swearing loudly.

On the train home I see men and women in business suits of varying ages (and all races) sitting quietly doing something on their laptops, reading newspapers or magazines, or engaged in relatively quiet conversations with each other.

I don't think it's a coincidence.

And this brings me back to my earlier point: it's not just about job interviews. It's about self-image, confidence, attitude. Do you see yourself as a poor person or as a professional in a business suit? The way you see yourself carries over to the way you act and the way others see you.

I admit, when I was a bit younger I frequently used nonstandard English (e.g., "I seen," "he don't"), because I learned nonstandard English growing up. Today I see myself as more of a professional. I work with professionals and have learned to emulate other professionals, and I find myself saying things like this less often. People who did not know me when I was younger are often surprised to hear, when they ask, that my mother and father were not professionals.

I'm sure professionals swear once in a while, but I agree with you that there's a difference between playing pool or watching sports with close friends and every other word a swear in a public place.

Good one.

Thanks.

Bill

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unklesamta
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by frogpond:
quote:
Originally posted by unklesam's under the boardwalk:
Sorry doesn't cut it.

You are not allowed to make that decision as an employer. You have to limit your decision to be based on the interview and the references supplied by the candidate.

It is precisely why we have had to limit interview questions and make some of them unethical and illegal. You know, like you cannot ask age, maritial status, or sexual preferences questions?

What I do in my free time has no bearing on my job performance.

And people who release curse-laden tirades against anything do not automatically disqualify themselves from being professional when professionalism is needed.

If you believe this to be true, why are students being warned about the content of their Facebook and MySpace profiles?

In the real world how you conduct yourself outside your job certainly can and does have an affect on your professional life.

Myspace is a voluntary activity that you choose to participate in and that potential employers may have a chance to view. But (without a specific cite, currently looking) I can assure you that if that were listed as a reason for not hiring someone or for teminating employment, there could be a lawsuit.

I did not choose to have the person I was interviewing with on Monday standing at the bar where I shoot pool Friday night. I can also within reason assume that equal qualifications and such and you choose not employ me because of some outside information you recieved without my knowledge I would have grounds for appeal.

Again, cursing in your personal and private life does not mean that you are unprofessional in your professional life. There is a reason we are allowed a personal and private life.

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

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Arriah
The First USA Noel


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There could be a lawsuit but in most states, you don't even have to be told why you're not being hired/terminated so the lawsuit would be tossed out of court. In your example, you did choose to be swearing in the pool hall so it is still your own choices that are affecting you.

In an admittedly extreme example, look at the rules the military imposes on members that apply even when they are 'off the clock' and in some cases even into retirement! Many other employers have rules about what you can and can't do if you're driving a company vehicle or wearing company clothing (and I don't mean illegal things). This is because the way you behave in your private time reflects on your employer.

For a slightly different example: Would you hire someone that you observed stealing a magazine from a grocery store? It's outside information, not presented in the interview and that was during their private time, and let's assume they didn't get caught so there is no criminal record.
I'm going to guess you wouldn't. Because you'd be concerned that the way they behave on their own time would carry over into their professional attitude. You'd be worried they'd steel from your company.

In our ongoing example, I wouldn't hire you because I'm afraid you'll swear in a professional situation. And whether you fell that is right or not, it is certainly legal and I doubt you could even get an employment lawyer to touch a case based on that.

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Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself
Rebecca

Posts: 682 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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