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Author Topic: How much can we take?
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Maybe the best way out of this is for FEMA to buy everyone new boots so they could just pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Yeah, that's the ticket....

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I don't know how it works in Sweden, but in the U.S. you have to get permits and inspections for any structure you put up. Yes, they do have to be proper and safe.
Sure, you need them here too, but the paper mills runs slow. You can get started first, then fix the paperwork and get away with it, even if not strictly legal. That's how I built my garage, and if challenged I would just have given them some bullshit about prototyping as a study in preparation for the real project. Even if you don't get the paperwork, it will be years before anything happens, and most likely you will get away with it (actually, there was a case recently where the government got spanked real good for tearing down a house that lacked proper permits and had to pay extensive compensation).

quote:
Would you want to be living in a jerry-built structure in a hurricane-prone area?
Happily, if the alternative was a tent or a trailer.

quote:
I remember the pictures of Bandeh Aceh after the tsunami. They were heartbreaking. However, I think there is a difference. We are not necessarily talking about the same level of infrastructure, environmental regulations, health codes, building regulations, etc.
It's very simple. If the regulations are stopping necessary progress, screw them. And I find it difficult to see how a less developed infrastructure would be an asset. Less to rebuild, but the rebuild process is much harder.

quote:
You can "have it both ways" with proper Government assistance
But you have to play with the hand you've been dealt, and that hand does not include either the 'government assistance' or 'divine intervention' card. Wishful thinking will not give you those cards. Whining that it was an unfair deal will not give you those cards. Waiting will not give you those cards. So, perhaps you will not win this hand, but at least play it as good as you can and minimize your loss.

Remember, there is only shame in failing if you don't give it you best shot.

quote:
Seriously, how many of the things in that post do you think that a private citizen with no authority and limited resources could organise?
Well, he could do something. If he has a friend, they can do twice as much. If they have a bunch of friends, things will start to happen.

How many people are affected by this? Do they have any friends who are not affected?

I think that somewhere in that equation you'll find some kind of solution.

quote:
They have no neighbours, no shops, no power, no water, no place to buy fuel, no jobs...
In other words, they have nothing to lose by trying.

quote:
Also, remember that large sections of New Orleans are below sea level.
Perhaps something worth remembering and fixing if New Orleans 2.0 is completed.

quote:
There is a very good chance that NO will never be the same as it was prior to Katrina.
Of course, cities, like people, are changed by dramatic events. Some scars, but also stronger and wiser.

quote:
First of all, let me say that while Troberg has the right attitude, I do agree he's woefully uninformed about the scale of the problems involved IMHO.
The scale does not really matter that much. Why? Because the more people affected, the more people you should be able to gather for the effort the fix it.

quote:
Rebuilding homes in the currently affected areas just isn't practical.
So don't start with that. Start by doing what it takes to make the affected areas unaffected.

quote:
OK, your house is flooded, your property is hopelessly contaminated and worthless, the government isn't letting you back onto your land so that you can even try to rebuild and there's no infastructure available to support any rebuilding efforts you could attempt. Your home is gone and it's not coming back. Where do you go from here? Do you spend the rest of your life in a miserable FEMA trailer in a futile hope that somebody will do something? Or, just maybe, do you make the choice to improve your own life?
My point exactly.

quote:
one of the jobs of governments is to provide for the general welfare of the people. In our society, our governments provide access to utilities and roads and schools and, in some places, health care. When government does not provide these things, particularly utilities, there is little recourse the average person can take.
So, when the government fails to provide, what do you do then? Wither away while doing nothing or do what little you can?

quote:
There are things that the government does that are impossible or impractical for individuals to do.
You are only an individual if you do it alone. Gather a large bunch of people and you are no longer individuals, you are a force to be reckoned with.

quote:
The problem here, Troberg, is that even if you tried to do some of these things you won't be allowed to. There are whole sections of the city that are closed off and nobody is allowed in until they've been decontaminated.
There are two obvious solutions to that:

* Start fixing the areas that are accessible.
* Screw the rules. If the rules are a problem instead of a help, they have no justification. If need be, call on article 13 of the UN declaration of human rights, it directly apply to this.

quote:
For one thing, the areas affected by Katrina are (well, were) some of the poorest in the USA.
There is an upside to that. That means that more of the affected are blue collar, which means that they will be more likely to have the needed skill set (face it, a stock trader will not do much good when hauling debris and building roads).

quote:
How about where the hell are they supposed to work to get the money to get these things to MacGuyver their houses back to being livable??? We are not talking about people who had a lot to begin with, these are the poorest of the working poor, and the places that they used to work are gone, the contractors who are working in the area won't hire a lot of them because they have no skills in carpentry, etc..
They get by someway now. How do they get money at the moment? If they have no job, what is stopping them from putting in some work in the rebuild effort?

quote:
From your responses, I, and clearly others, get the impression that you have no idea of the scope of what happened here.
No, I don't really have a clear idea of the mess, and I don't really care. Why? Because I know that it's not the largest disaster ever, not even close. Other people have managed to pull them self out of the rubble and rebuild after earth quakes, floods, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, war, famine, epidemics and all the other weapons of mass destruction that faith has in its arsenal.

Look at the recent tsunami in SE Asia. Look at the flood that nearly levelled Lissabon. Look at the aftermath of various wars. Look how Europe rebuilt after the plague (granted, it took over a century, but we did it).

USA has shown that it's a capable nation when it sets its mind to something. The colonization of the west. WW2. The Apollo program. Various other wars. Do not misunderstand this, for this is crucial. It wasn't the government setting its mind to it that made these efforts possible, that merely offered the alternative. What made it possible is that the nation itself, the very citizens of which the nation is based upon, set its mind to it. That's where the real power of any nation lies.

You choose to go to the moon, not because it was easy, but because it was hard. Show some of that spirit and rebuild New Orleans, because it is hard, and to show that you can show the one finger a true American need to faith and say "Is that all you can do?".

--------------------
/Troberg

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Griffin at the Maul
Joyeux New Sale


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There was a case recently here in Dallas where a company demolished a building without the proper permits (the building was designated as historic, so they would not have been able to get the permits anyway). They will now have to rebuild the building brick by brick. It is actually rather funny.

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Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?

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Sue Bee
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
For one thing, the areas affected by Katrina are (well, were) some of the poorest in the USA.
There is an upside to that. That means that more of the affected are blue collar, which means that they will be more likely to have the needed skill set (face it, a stock trader will not do much good when hauling debris and building roads).
No Troberg, these are not blue collar folks in the sense of people who are used to manual labor. These are folks who worked in the entertainment industries, as wait staff, bussers, bartenders, chefs, musicians and the service industries.

quote:
How about where the hell are they supposed to work to get the money to get these things to MacGuyver their houses back to being livable??? We are not talking about people who had a lot to begin with, these are the poorest of the working poor, and the places that they used to work are gone, the contractors who are working in the area won't hire a lot of them because they have no skills in carpentry, etc..
They get by someway now. How do they get money at the moment? If they have no job, what is stopping them from putting in some work in the rebuild effort?

Probably the fact that they've gone to Houston, Baton Rouge, Chicago, New York. In other words, because the area is and had been unlivable, and because there are not enough jobs to go around, most folks who were able to leave before the storm stayed away when the storm was over. Many who stayed through the storm have been relocated.

quote:
From your responses, I, and clearly others, get the impression that you have no idea of the scope of what happened here.
No, I don't really have a clear idea of the mess, and I don't really care. Why? Because I know that it's not the largest disaster ever, not even close. Other people have managed to pull them self out of the rubble and rebuild after earth quakes, floods, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, war, famine, epidemics and all the other weapons of mass destruction that faith has in its arsenal.

Look at the recent tsunami in SE Asia. Look at the flood that nearly levelled Lissabon. Look at the aftermath of various wars. Look how Europe rebuilt after the plague (granted, it took over a century, but we did it).

USA has shown that it's a capable nation when it sets its mind to something. The colonization of the west. WW2. The Apollo program. Various other wars. Do not misunderstand this, for this is crucial. It wasn't the government setting its mind to it that made these efforts possible, that merely offered the alternative. What made it possible is that the nation itself, the very citizens of which the nation is based upon, set its mind to it. That's where the real power of any nation lies.

You choose to go to the moon, not because it was easy, but because it was hard. Show some of that spirit and rebuild New Orleans, because it is hard, and to show that you can show the one finger a true American need to faith and say "Is that all you can do?".
[/QUOTE]

To address your last point in this paragraph first, I think that Hambubba's reason for opening the topic is to try to stir up people, to motivate them to do something like have these images in their minds eyes while they are dialing or emailing their representatives in the government, while they are moving a lever or X'ing a box in a polling place, while they have their check book to write a check to someplace like Habitat for Humanity.

You list all these things that America did through the direction of the government, whether it was the (mind of the) nation who backed it or not. You can not have it both ways in regards to your arguments. The government, and not the local government, but the National government, has to get more involved in the reconstruction. This is too big to have individuals do.


ETA about a million times because code is hard.

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tootiredtocare
Deck the Malls


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Here is the thing flood plain areas are where a lot of humans live. Because it's where a source of water is that is drinkable and can be used for agriculture.

There isn't a place on earth that will not have a natural disaster at some point or other.

The poverty in new orleans was such that it stretched back for generations. Most of them had no family outside of New Orleans.

They have no where to go to but another housing project. They have no income that isn't subjected to a massive ghetto tax, they aren't educated because of ignorance foisted on them.

New Orleans a block would be expensive homes then the next block would be slums. You had antique stores on one block then a row of crack houses on the next. Five star resturants, five star hotels would be surronded by private homes, strip clubs, gay bars.

New Orleans was a prime vacacation area for Bible Belters who wanted to get away from the Bible Belt for a few days or even a week.

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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You can't rebuild homes without materials. You can't buy materials without money. Money won't buy things which aren't available because there are no stores.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I don't claim to have all the solutions, but I'm confident that the solutions exist (worse disasters have been handled under worse conditions) and that someone in the area have the needed knowledge to find those solutions. The ones who don't have the solutions can help the ones who have, there is always lots of simple work that can be done by anyone not medically unfit.

Sure, if you feel that is too much, you are free to relocate.

The point is that you either get in the fight or you walk away, but you can not whine about not winning if you left a walkover.

I agree wholeheartedly that the government has effed up the entire effort to an extent that is probably criminal, but that is just all the more reason to not keep waiting for them indefinately. If something must be done and no one is doing it, everybody is equally at fault.

Realize that you are a community, with or without the support of your leaders, and act accordingly.

quote:
You can't rebuild homes without materials. You can't buy materials without money. Money won't buy things which aren't available because there are no stores.
Well, then it's a good thing that America had a lot of open stores ready and waiting when the European settlers came and built homes all over the continent.

--------------------
/Troberg

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Forget materials. You have to have some place to put the trash. And by "trash" I mean "every material thing that existed before."

So, where do you pile the houses? Where do you pile the years of stuff you have accumulated?

And Troberg, perhaps if you don't claim to have all the answers, you should reserve judgement of the situation. Your insinuation that people could have been done with this already had they but tried harder is made in glaring ignorance of the situation.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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abbubmah
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recent NEWS videos of the area, the people, and the struggle.

Pay special attention to the Plaquemines Parish coverage.

--------------------
Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Forget materials. You have to have some place to put the trash. And by "trash" I mean "every material thing that existed before."

So, where do you pile the houses? Where do you pile the years of stuff you have accumulated?

Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.

quote:
And Troberg, perhaps if you don't claim to have all the answers, you should reserve judgement of the situation. Your insinuation that people could have been done with this already had they but tried harder is made in glaring ignorance of the situation.
Have I said that they would be done by now? I don't think so, and if I have, I apologize. I think things could have been well underway, but a rebuilding project of this size will take time.

Fact remains: other disasters are handled, often without help (when they happen in poor countries) or with little help. It's not impossible, just difficult, but it requires a serious group effort.

Heck, some of the great canals where dug by lots of people with shovels. The ancient Egyptians built the pyramids without steel or machinery. Dozens of war torn nations have pulled themselves up by the boot strap.

You are selling yourself short. Where is the American entrepeneur spirit, where is the spirit than won the west, where is the spirit that won a world war? Where is the spirit I saw before the second Gulf war, when they interviewed some people in the street asking them if they thought you'd win and one answered "Of course we'll win, we are Americans!"?

I've never hidden the fact that there are many things about how USA works that I don't like, but I have always admired your ability to get things done (IMHO, that's where you won the cold war). Yet, suddenly, it's like all the air has gone out of you, and you are about as ready to stand proud and get going again as a used condom.

Don't stumble on the the big picture. It doesn't matter what issue you are working with, the big picture always look crappy. Trust me on that, I've seen enough disastrous projects to know that. Just look for the things that can be done. Nibble away at the edges of that big picture, until it's gone.

It took hundreds of years to build NO, no one expects it to be quick, easy and painless to do it again, but the longer you wait, the longer it will take. So, it may take a some years before it is habitable, and maybe a couple of decades before it's complete. If you think that it's worth it, get to it as soon as possible, because it will not rebuild itself. If not, give up and move elsewhere. Sitting still and wishing for things to be different is the by far worst alternative, as it leads nowhere.

I don't promise a simple and quick solution. Churchill would probably have called it "Blood, sweat and tears", but with good old hard work, grim determination and cooperation, anything is possible (although, sometimes some vaseline may help).

--------------------
/Troberg

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Well, then it's a good thing that America had a lot of open stores ready and waiting when the European settlers came and built homes all over the continent.

That is truly a stupid comment.

Let's see: The homes in the area where I live (one of the first settled) were built with either the wood from the plentiful forests or from the stones that were available. Neither are free or readily available any longer in the area of New Orleans flooded by Katrina. I'm sure homes in the New Orleans area weren't built from sod, so once the local forests were exhausted, the residents had to haul in lumber from mills. Much of what NO uses comes down the Mississipi or in through the Gulf. What shape is the port in these days?

When earliest settlers first came here were no zoning or building codes that had to be followed. And there weren't so many people that you couldn't go out in the woods or the field to take a crap or piss until you got a hole dug for an outhouse.

Water was available from unpoluted creeks or streams or wells. You didn't need functioning plumbing to survive.

And, in fact, some of the earliest settlers had more to start with than some of these people in New Orleans. At least the settlers had the tools they needed to build houses.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Richard W
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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
They have no neighbours, no shops, no power, no water, no place to buy fuel, no jobs...
In other words, they have nothing to lose by trying.
Doesn't it mean they have nothing to gain by trying? From an individual point of view it surely makes much more sense to try to build a new life in whatever place they've been evacuated to. Which I guess is what most are trying to do. That should be doable as individuals or small co-operating groups, and I'm sure even that won't be easy.
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.


The various governments regulate landfills. The man on the street can't just start one up. And usually we don't allow landfills in flood plains.

quote:
Fact remains: other disasters are handled, often without help (when they happen in poor countries) or with little help. It's not impossible, just difficult, but it requires a serious group effort.

It's a lot easier to rebuild in underdeveloped countries than it is in cities of developed countries. Back to zoning and building codes.

And many other countries built after disasters -- manmade or otherwise -- because the government stepped in. Our government stepped in it.* The corruption/ineptitude in FEMA which is not helping but hurting the people who want to rebuild.

quote:
Heck, some of the great canals where dug by lots of people with shovels. The ancient Egyptians built the pyramids without steel or machinery. Dozens of war torn nations have pulled themselves up by the boot strap.

Ignore that the governments did those things and pretend they were done by some gung-ho individual. Right. Yeah, like I said, have FEMA buy everyone new boots so they can pull themselve up by those wonderful, all problem solving bootstraps.

quote:
You are selling yourself short. Where is the American entrepeneur spirit, where is the spirit than won the west, where is the spirit that won a world war? Where is the spirit I saw before the second Gulf war, when they interviewed some people in the street asking them if they thought you'd win and one answered "Of course we'll win, we are Americans!"?

It's bogged down in laws, rules, regulations, bureaucracy, lack of free and readily available raw materials and covered with trash.

quote:
Don't stumble on the the big picture. It doesn't matter what issue you are working with, the big picture always look crappy. Trust me on that, I've seen enough disastrous projects to know that. Just look for the things that can be done. Nibble away at the edges of that big picture, until it's gone.

It took hundreds of years to build NO, no one expects it to be quick, easy and painless to do it again, but the longer you wait, the longer it will take. So, it may take a some years before it is habitable, and maybe a couple of decades before it's complete. If you think that it's worth it, get to it as soon as possible, because it will not rebuild itself. If not, give up and move elsewhere. Sitting still and wishing for things to be different is the by far worst alternative, as it leads nowhere.

I don't promise a simple and quick solution. Churchill would probably have called it "Blood, sweat and tears", but with good old hard work, grim determination and cooperation, anything is possible (although, sometimes some vaseline may help).

Another simplistic response to a complex situation. Your rah-rah attitude comes across as based on an amazing lack of knowledge at best.


*"stepped in it" refers to what one does when one steps in fecses.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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glass papaya
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Where is the American entrepeneur spirit, where is the spirit than won the west, where is the spirit that won a world war? Where is the spirit I saw before the second Gulf war, when they interviewed some people in the street asking them if they thought you'd win and one answered "Of course we'll win, we are Americans!"?

Did you watch the videos hambubba linked to?

The spirit is there. It is being seriously hindered by government red tape.

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MaxKaladin
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.


The various governments regulate landfills. The man on the street can't just start one up. And usually we don't allow landfills in flood plains.

Besides, in the New Orleans area things don't stay buried. They can't have traditional cemetaries because coffins keep coming up. I'm sure they'd have similar problems with landfills.
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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.


The various governments regulate landfills. The man on the street can't just start one up. And usually we don't allow landfills in flood plains.

Besides, in the New Orleans area things don't stay buried. They can't have traditional cemetaries because coffins keep coming up. I'm sure they'd have similar problems with landfills.
And before Troberg comes up with the great idea to burn the debris as would have been done in earlier times: most municipality laws don't allow trash burning anymore, particularly trash that might contain toxins.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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glass papaya
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Landfill. Not only would it take care of the trash, it would raise the ground level a bit.


The various governments regulate landfills. The man on the street can't just start one up. And usually we don't allow landfills in flood plains.

Besides, in the New Orleans area things don't stay buried. They can't have traditional cemetaries because coffins keep coming up. I'm sure they'd have similar problems with landfills.
And before Troberg comes up with the great idea to burn the debris as would have been done in earlier times: most municipality laws don't allow trash burning anymore, particularly trash that might contain toxins.

Add also that the laws are to be strictly followed, even under disaster conditions.
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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
It's a lot easier to rebuild in underdeveloped countries than it is in cities of developed countries. Back to zoning and building codes.
and

quote:
It's bogged down in laws, rules, regulations, bureaucracy, lack of free and readily available raw materials and covered with trash.
So, it's better to follow building codes and be homeless than to screw them and at least have a bad house.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

quote:
Another simplistic response to a complex situation. Your rah-rah attitude comes across as based on an amazing lack of knowledge at best.
Bullshit. Whatever way you look at it, you will never get more done by doing nothing than by doing something. You can't deny that. That's all the argumentation that's needed, everything else is just clarifications to that statement.

quote:
Did you watch the videos hambubba linked to?
Nope, effed up my browser. I'll do it later at another computer.

quote:
The spirit is there. It is being seriously hindered by government red tape.
This is something that is completely alien to me. Why are you letting the government stop you? If they are wrong in this (which seems to be just about the only thing people agree on), why should one have a moral obligation to follow their dictates? Change starts with people going against the current dogmas, not by accepting them.

quote:
Add also that the laws are to be strictly followed, even under disaster conditions.
I Sweden we have a saying that goes "Nöd går före lag", which roughly translates as "Dire need has priority over law". This is accepted by the legal system. For instance, you can break into your neighbours house if your phone is out and you need to call an ambulance, and get away with it. It's still illegal, but you are not held responsible for it as the circumstances dictated this as the reasonable cause of action. Self defence is another classic example. This entire situation is so extraordinary that it fits this axiom perfectly.

Don't you have similar room for emergency actions?

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Building codes are put into place, ostensibly, so that the buildings are actually habitable.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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tootiredtocare
Deck the Malls


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Sorry troberg people would have to pay for damages and yes they would be arrested for it. They would spend a night or even a weekend in jail for breaking in someone's elses houses. They could even have prison time for it. You still broke into someone's house.

Add in getting sued by the homeowner for any damages.

It's considered more acceptable to knock on someone's else house. Usually there is about another hundred houses for you to knock on. Most Americans live in cities not the boonies where a small town would only have 100 people.

And there is a thing called electrical wiring. It's very dangerous to mess with. You really are ignorant of the law and facts of Katrina Troberg.

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Troberg, I'm really tempted to ask why, if it's that easy, aren't you flying down to the Gulf Coast to get ahold of a bulldozer and single-handedly help build everyone new homes. After all, you're sitting in Sweden getting frustrated at homeless hurricane victims in America for not following what you see as easy solutions. Perhaps you should come down here and lead by example.

Are you doing anything to help, or are you just sitting at your computer listing unrealistic answers to complex problems? Problems, I might add, about which you have no knowledge or experience.

Here's a tip: When people living in the disaster area are telling you that your solutions are not feasible, perhaps they're right and you should take their answers in consideration.

--------------------
"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Sara at home
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Well, Troberg, New Orleans ain't in Sweden so the laws and the way you'd do it in Sweden just doesn't matter.

And, one more time, people aren't doing something about it because the people don't have the money it takes to do it. Why is that so hard to grasp?? The government does have the money, but they'd rather launder it to their best buddies or simply flush it down the toilet than actually accomplish something with it. That's what happens when you have corrupt people at the top of the bureaucracy.

And I suggest that before you continue looking foolish insisting that people just do it, you first look at hambubba's videos, then learn something about New Orleans.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
It's considered more acceptable to knock on someone's else house. Usually there is about another hundred houses for you to knock on. Most Americans live in cities not the boonies where a small town would only have 100 people.
My example was exactly that, an example. We still have large towns here.

Besides, it may still happen. A decade or so ago, there was a big train wreck in the winter, and to keep the injured warm until help arrived, several nearby summer houses that was empty was broken into.

quote:
Troberg, I'm really tempted to ask why, if it's that easy, aren't you flying down to the Gulf Coast to get ahold of a bulldozer and single-handedly help build everyone new homes. After all, you're sitting in Sweden getting frustrated at homeless hurricane victims in America for not following what you see as easy solutions. Perhaps you should come down here and lead by example.
If I was to do disaster relief, it would be in a third world country where people are actually dying of they don't get the help.

Besides, have I ever said that it's something that could be done singlehandedly? Have I not stressed the importance of cooperation?

quote:
Here's a tip: When people living in the disaster area are telling you that your solutions are not feasible, perhaps they're right and you should take their answers in consideration.
Not when they are talking bullshit. Sure, some of my suggestions are not workable. As you say, I'm not there. I'm sure the people on site is better suited to decide what could be done.

Does that matter? Not at all.

It all boils down to this: Is there something that can be done to improve conditions? Anything at all, even if it just improves thing a tiny bit? If there is, which I'm pretty sure there is, how can you justify not doing that tiny bit?

If it's me or the people who are there who finds that thing that can be improved doesn't matter, the point is that it is there, somewhere.

quote:
And, one more time, people aren't doing something about it because the people don't have the money it takes to do it. Why is that so hard to grasp??
Because not everything costs money. How much does it cost to shovel muck out the way? Just grab a shovel and start. Some things can be done.

quote:
And I suggest that before you continue looking foolish insisting that people just do it
It's you who are looking foolish by sticking religiously to the statement that you'll get further by doing nothing than by at least trying to do something.

If you want to leave and resettle elsewhere, fine, do so. But if you want to remain, the place needs help. The government is obviously not providing that help. As far as I can see, the only intelligent alternative in that case is to at least give it a shot. Just sitting around will just leave you where you are. You are trying to play with the cards you wish you had, not the ones you actually have.

As I said earlier, it might not work out, but there is only shame in failing if you didn't give it your best shot.

Stop shooting at my suggestions, as they are just suggestions and not meant to be a complete and failsafe plan, and instead answer the very simple question:

What can be gained from doing nothing compared to at least trying to do something?

quote:
And there is a thing called electrical wiring. It's very dangerous to mess with.
What are you talking about here? Rebuilding or cleaning up?

Rebuilding: Surely, of all the people left homeless, some must be qualified for electrical work?

Cleaning up: I've worked briefly at power companies, and I can assure you that the power is shut down after a disaster like this. Why would they pump power into a demolished area, especially when doing so would risk the rest of their clients power supply as a fault within NO could shut down other parts of the network until it's fixed. They will not turn on the juice until the network is fixed again.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Because not everything costs money. How much does it cost to shovel muck out the way? Just grab a shovel and start. Some things can be done.


Muck?? With a shovel? Get a clue. And quit ignoring the simple fact that there is no way to dispose of the debris because it has to be trucked from the area. Then all the new materials have to be trucked into the area. We aren't talking about putting in a garden.

quote:
What can be gained from doing nothing compared to at least trying to do something?

Under normal circumstances, you would be right. But this isn't normal circumstance. It isn't like the people who lived in this area are living on the streets next to their destroyed homes, milling about dull eyed and stunned doing nothing but waiting for govenment aid like we are use to seeing people in disaster camps. They aren't there. The area is deserted because there is no place live, no public services, no food. Is there water? The people have been dispersed throughout the country. You expect people with no money and often no transportatin to move back to an area with no livable housing, no public services/utilities, no stores, no food to start piling rubbish and debris until someone with a truck and a loader comes along to get haul it away? In New Orleans in the summer.

I don't know. Doesn't seem hard for me to grasp why that ain't gonna happen.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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As far as I can see, these people are living in a reality gap.

1. They don't want to relocate. (Those who do are not really part of the issue)

2. To move back, the place must be rebuilt.

3. The government will not rebuild it.

4. The people who want to live there don't rebuild it.

5. So they wait while nothing is happening.

If the government doesn't fix it (and that seems very unlikely at the moment), and they don't do it themselves, it will not get rebuilt, and they can not move back. Yet they wait.

This is what I'm talking about when I say that they are playing with the cards they wish they held instead of the cards they actually hold.

Just waiting will get them nowhere, in fact it's likely that the situation will gradually detoriate. Relocating might provide a solution. Fighting to take back NO might also provide a solution (but, of course, there is no guarantee).

For some reason, they seem to have chosen the only alternative that's a guaranteed failure. Choose one of the other alternatives instead, they at least give a fighting chance.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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They are living in reality.

They are wishing for something that may not ever get: to move back to what they consider(ed) their homes -- in some cases for generations.

quote:
This is what I'm talking about when I say that they are playing with the cards they wish they held instead of the cards they actually hold.

The are playing with the cards they were delt. They wish they had been delt other cards.

quote:
Just waiting will get them nowhere, in fact it's likely that the situation will gradually detoriate.

How much worse can it get?

quote:
Relocating might provide a solution. Fighting to take back NO might also provide a solution (but, of course, there is no guarantee)

They have been relocated. They aren't living there. The people who use to live there are scattered across the country though there are areas where more live than in other areas.

The problem is many of them want to go "home". Nothing is being done by the government to make that possible -- like hauling away the debris, getting the services up and running, repairs to the infrastructure.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
How much worse can it get?
They are more or less living on wellfare. That will not last forever, and they need to get back up before that happens.

quote:
They have been relocated. They aren't living there. The people who use to live there are scattered across the country though there are areas where more live than in other areas.
I was talking about a permanent relocation. Any other alternative requires that someone rebuilds to work out. If the government don't rebuild and the people don't rebuild, it will not work out. They need to get the government to do it or do it themselves, or it will not be done and the area will remain a disaster area.

Those are the alternatives that have a potential to lead somewhere. Waiting does not.

It may be that it's impossible, but in that case, those who don't relocate are screwed. This lack of decisiveness is putting a lot of people in harm's way.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
How much worse can it get?
They are more or less living on wellfare. That will not last forever, and they need to get back up before that happens.

Did you miss that many of these people were more or less living on welfare before Katrina? And many of those who weren't were just scraping by? How do you not get that that's the problem??? NO MONEY and NO EFFECTIVE GOVERNMENT HELP.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Troberg, there is no reason for you to be ignorant of conditions in New Orleans (and the rest of the Gulf Coast, for that matter. It wasn't just one city that was destroyed, it was most of the coastal regions of three states).

Here are some pictures so you can get some understanding of the scope and scale of the issue:

Aerial view of New Orleans. Note the depth and breadth of the water. As far as the eye can see, huh?

Here's a photo of the 17th Street levee breach. See the debris field at the bottom of the picture? "A shovel" isn't going to be of much help.

Neither would a shovel help much here.

Here is a photo of Bay St. Louis, Mississippi. Those concrete slabs used to have buildings on top of them.

Here are photos of Pascagoula, Mississippi. This summer (nearly one year after the storm), my step-daughter's youth group from our church went down and spent a week helping with the cleanup effort.

People *are* working, Troberg. Good people are giving their all in order to help this area rebuild. People of middling competence, however, are doing whatever they can to obstruct the effort.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:

Here are photos of Pascagoula, Mississippi. This summer (nearly one year after the storm), my step-daughter's youth group from our church went down and spent a week helping with the cleanup effort.

I feel that I have to point out the obvious that when groups like this go into the area to help, there is a lot of coordination, pre-planning and financing that preceeds their arrival so that those volunteers can accomplish something worthwhile and so that they have food, water and a place to live. The just don't jump in the car, drive down and do something....anything.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Aren't the Pascagoula pics from hurricane Ivan damage, August '04? That's how long it takes to clean up, when there is an organized effort to clean up. I made a couple of trips of there last year, and while there was progress, it still looked like they just had a hurricane...

Sad.

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Sara, yes, there is a *lot* of coordination that goes into such efforts prior to them happening. Our kids all raised the 200-some odd dollars it cost to transport, house, and feed them (they stayed in tents). They also brought all their own tools and supplies.

And Hambubba, these are post-Katrina photos. Our youth pastor said what you said, that it looked like the hurricane had just happened, so evidentally not a lot of progress has been made. Still.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Anglrdr, you are correct, I had mental dyslexia Pascagoula<>Pensacola.

grr.

I hate it when that happens.

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

Posts: 7942 | From: Louisiana | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Die Capacitrix
We Three Blings


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Jackson County Mississippi is 1,043 mi² with 131,420 residents. Wikipedia
quote:
To date, more than 5.5 million cubic yards of hurricane debris has been removed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, city crews, and the County’s contractor.
Press Release from 12 July 206

If my math is correct, that is 40 cubic yards per resident. And they're not even done yet. [Eek!]

I'm wondering why the Army Corps of Engineers has stopped picking up debris if the area's not clear. I doubt Jackson County is the only place the CoE has abandoned. And FEMA's just wonderful.
quote:
Families in FEMA housing need to demonstrate every 60 to 90 days what they’re doing to pursue permanent housing.
Does fighting with bureaucrats count as pursuing permanent housing? Does FEMA really think all the affected people want to stay in trailers? People want homes and jobs.

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"Strength is the capacity to break a chocolate bar into four pieces with your bare hands - and then eat just one of the pieces." Judith Viorst

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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Efforts to steal homes and turn New Orleans white continue.

In this article, you can see the distrust of local officials by homeowners. Also take note of the 40,000(!) building permits issued.

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

Posts: 7942 | From: Louisiana | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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