Joe Bentley
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How do we proceed? Simple. As always a bunch of badly paid, under respected people in uniform will go in, risk life and limb to make everything better all while people complain that they aren't doing enough, probably get demonized the first time one of them shots an armed looter, and then we can all get back to bitching about gas prices.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
...at least, those of us who still have a home.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
On less snarky note one thing I'm hoping for is that more attention gets paid in the future to urban planning. I'm hoping what happened in New Orleans forces developers to realize that building cites on flood plans, faults lines, right next to giant volcanos, at the bottom of hills that have mud slides every season, etc, etc might not be the best idea.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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Turquoise Girl and Christie, just how high would you have had to stack the Guardsmen to have stopped the storm surge?
The levee system was designed to prevent any problems in a Cat III storm and minimize a huge majority of problems in a Cat IV storm. The storm was borderline Cat IV/V - and what do you know... it didn't hold. Sorry, no surprise there.
A co-worker just left the Coast Guard Civil Engineering Unit in NOLO, and she says that all the projects where monies were REQUESTED were to build the levee system to withstand a Cat VI storm (mega-Cat V). They KNEW that they would be cut - so they over-requested. Many - if not MOST government agencies do the same thing. The money that they DID receive was used to maintain the status quo. So, there was no degrade in the system - and there was no "cut" in funding.
This reads like the money "losses" in the auto industry. If they project earning $1000 in profit and only earn $900 in profit, they claim a $100 LOSS. The USACOE asked for the stars, received the moon, and now you are buying into their sob stories that they LOST money.
Sorry. Doesn't work for me.
And regarding the troops overseas: National Guard troops are almost ALL combat arms. This doesn't surprise anyone. That is how they are designed. Guard units are MADE to fill out active duty combat arms units.
Now that they are being used, suddenly its a bad thing. Quick note to Chloe's Christie's and TQ's fellas: Never use something in your right hand when you suddenly need it in your left - or you'll never live it down.
-------------------- Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...
Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it. Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003
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Sara at home
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There are tens and tens of thousands of people who have been without adequate food and water for four days. The reports of shooting started this morning. There was advance notice of a very big, very bad hurricane hitting somewhere in the Gulf coast. Why were there no supplies ready to go to shelters. Why was there no anticipation of flooding as the storm moved north. Why weren't supplies available Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday? Why is the blame for the condition of those 10s of thousands of people being shoved onto the shoulders of the people who started shooting this morning? Scapegoating, that's all it is.
Had things been handled properly from the start, there wouldn't be the level of anger and frustration -- and shooting -- now going on.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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You know, I can understand looting for things like food, water, and diapers but seeing pics of people stocking up on beer and electronics is just sickening--drop that shit and HELP! I can also understand the panic, fighting, and bickering but rapes? God damn rapes?
-------------------- Ralphie, get off the stage sweetheart. Posts: 2041 | From: Yuba City, California | Registered: Apr 2002
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That story was posted around 8PM on Aug 30. Several of the levees broke the morning of the 31st, the pumps started breaking and the sandbagging of the 17th Street levee never happened-- then the flooding got even worse and covered the French Quarter.
That resturant is probably flooded now unfortunately. But at least they were open for a bit-- it shows the New Orleans spirit.
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Why no buses? Again, all those unused school buses in NO, and all those poor people unable to leave because they didn't have access to transportation or the guarantee of somewhere to stay.
CNN on the convention center (I was just there a couple of months ago, making this hellishly easy to envision): "It's hard to describe. It's something I never could conceive of ever seeing in a major city like New Orleans. It is hard to believe. This is New Orleans Louisiana we are talking about. We spent the last few hours at the convention center where there are thousands of people just laying in the street. They have nowhere to go. These are mothers. We saw mothers. We talked to mothers holding babies. Some of these babies are 3, 4, 5, months old living in these horrible conditions. Putrid food on the ground. Sewage, their feet sitting in sewage. We saw feces on the ground. These people are being forced to live like animals. When you look at some of these mothers your heart just breaks. We're not talking about a few families or a few hundred families. Thousands of people are gathered around the convention.... People are literally dying. Right in front of us as we were watching this a man went into a seizure on the ground. It looked like he was dying. People tried to prop his head up. No one has medical training. No ambulance can come. It is just heartbreaking that people are just sitting there without food or water waiting for the buses to come take them away. People keep asking us - when are the buses coming. And I just have to say, I don't know."
But there are plenty of national guardsmen, right? Right? And even if there aren't, well, it might not be a popular thing to say, but this isn't really their job, now, is it?
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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I'm glad that DH and I just had a recent visit to one of our favorite places. Looks like it will never be the same. Over the past 2 days, we have enrolled 60 students at the elementary school where I teach. We are already overcrowded but we are welcoming them with open arms. They are coming in with nothing.
-------------------- "A bad acid trip does not a religion make" A friend commenting on another friend's religious charisma after a bad trip Posts: 232 | From: NW Florida Home of the Airbrushed T-Shirts | Registered: Jan 2003
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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Chloe do you have any arguments that aren't based on guilt trips?
How about this. Why aren't you down there right now? You seem to have all the answers. You seem to have no problem telling people that they should doing more. Buy a case of bottled water and some MREs, catch a Greyhound, you can be there by morning.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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Interesting concept, Joe. Your contention is that if I'm not ready to "catch a Greyhound" to N.O., I don't get to criticize the way this is being handled. Is this the criterion you plan to use for every subject we discuss from here on? Do let me know, and I'll save your comment for every future discussion in which it may become relevant.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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It pisses me off that all these journalists can get there and film people living in hell, yet are not doing a goddamn thing to help them. They're standing there on camera saying "these people behind me have no food, no water, they're sick and dying all around us." The CNN journalists yesterday were going around in a boat filming people trapped in their houses waving for help, and they didn't even acknowledge them or even ask "Are you okay? What do you need?" They just filmed them and kept moving. And then they wonder why people are starting to riot and shoot. If I needed immediate help and food, and some obviously healthy, well-off person came to film me and then walked away, I'd be pissed off too.
These news reporters look pretty good - they've got clean clothes on, a good meal, and most likely a cushy bed to sleep in and a toilet that flushes. How the NFBSK they can go into these areas and not even hand out bottles of water is beyond me. They're just standing there saying "These people have no water." Well obviously the news reporters have some. Give it to the people dying of dehydration right behind you, you selfish asshole.
Sorry for the rant, it's just really grating on me. How can they live with themselves?
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rhiandmoi
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I was under the impression that providing disaster relief and maintianing order were the National Guards jobs (in addition going into combat).
quote:During peacetime each state National Guard answers to the leadership in the 50 states, three territories and the District of Columbia. During national emergencies, however, the President reserves the right to mobilize the National Guard, putting them in federal duty status. While federalized, the units answer to the Combatant Commander of the theatre in which they are operating and, ultimately, to the President.
Even when not federalized, the Army National Guard has a federal obligation (or mission.) That mission is to maintain properly trained and equipped units, available for prompt mobilization for war, national emergency, or as otherwise needed.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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So Chloe, what exactly are you doing to solve the dilemma in Iraq and the disaster in NO?
You are complaining.
Joe is wearing a uniform.
I think my point is clear.
And Cervus - you are just echoing what I have been thinking for years - after seeing the fattened Sally Struthers whining about starving kids in Africaland.
-------------------- Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...
Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it. Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003
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Rhiandmoi
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quote:Sorry for the rant, it's just really grating on me. How can they live with themselves?
I think it is usually called documentarian detachment. If they stopped and got involved in every situation they couldn't capture the story. Not that it makes it alright, but this isn't the first situation where they have seen terrible things most likely and they learn to detach.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
Joe Bentley
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quote:Originally posted by Chloe: Interesting concept, Joe. Your contention is that if I'm not ready to "catch a Greyhound" to N.O., I don't get to criticize the way this is being handled. Is this the criterion you plan to use for every subject we discuss from here on? Do let me know, and I'll save your comment for every future discussion in which it may become relevant.
No I'm trying to figure why everyone is bitching that the government is not doing enough of something that isn't its job.
No where in the Constitution does it say anything about the government doing anything to help anyone after a natural disaster.
The point I was trying to make is that National Guard was not created to go into a lawless floodplan to stop idiots from stealing Snicker Bars from a washed out Walgreens. We have a military to protect from the foreign powers, not some jag-off who's taking fucking sniper shots at a hospital evacuation.
Does more need to be done, sure. But remember that for the most part of the people doing are doing things that are not their responsibility.
I'm hoping a lot more military assitance is forthcoming for the region. But its no more their job to do then it is yours. So don't complain that they are not doing enough. Everything they are doing right now is above and beyond.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Bentley: Chloe do you have any arguments that aren't based on guilt trips?
How about this. Why aren't you down there right now? You seem to have all the answers. You seem to have no problem telling people that they should doing more. Buy a case of bottled water and some MREs, catch a Greyhound, you can be there by morning.
It isn't Chloe's job to have the answers. It's someone else's -- the governor, the mayor, the president, the homeland security people -- someone's. A catastrophe like this should have been foreseen on some level. I thought preparedness was a national priority over the past few years. We can't get water to people who are in a flooded area caused by a hurricane we saw coming for a week. Someone needs to have the answers but it sure ain't Chloe.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Joe Bentley
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Let's be clear here. Chloe isn't blaming the government. She's blaming Bush.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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It absolutely *is* the government's job to provide for "the general welfare."
If you don't wish to take my word for it, read this.
[ETA: The government is Bush's. If he's not able to handle the blame when his administration screws up, he should just walk on down the road. It kills me how you people defend him as if he is a child. If it were Clinton, you'd be calling for his head. Pathetic, *and* transparent.]
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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I am not complaining about the military, and that the military is not doing enough. That's a red herring, and you know it. The military is doing what they can; what they can do is significantly limited by, among other things, the depletion among their numbers caused by the Iraq war. Are you honestly trying to tell me that isn't true?
And it would be difficult to hop on a Greyhound right now--but not as difficult as it would have been for the people of N.O., since Greyhounds reportedly stopped running out of the city _on Saturday_.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Bentley: Let's be clear here. Chloe isn't blaming the government. She's blaming Bush.
When the shoe fits.......
ETA: What's that old saying "The buck stops here"? Bush is the leader of the country, he hired the FEMA people and the homeland security people. We are woefully unprepared to handle catastrophes.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Bentley: Let's be clear here. Chloe isn't blaming the government. She's blaming Bush.
Ha! Bush, personally? Not really. He's clearly a dimwit. A criticism of Bush is metonymic for a criticism of his administration.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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Joe Bentley
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But my point is the inherent danger in the fact that Louisiana sits where it does and sits so far below sea level have been known and documented for long, long time. It wasn't Bush's job to fix it any more then it was Clinton's or Reagan's or Carter's... or hell I don't know how far it goes back.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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Rhiandmoi
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quote:The point I was trying to make is that National Guard was not created to go into a lawless floodplan to stop idiots from stealing Snicker Bars from a washed out Walgreens. We have a military to protect from the foreign powers, not some jag-off who's taking fucking sniper shots at a hospital evacuation.
quote:The Army National Guard's state mission is perhaps the most visible and well known. Nearly everyone has seen or heard of Guard units responding to battle fires or helping communities deal with floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, snowstorms or other emergency situations. In times of civil unrest, the citizens of a state can rest assured that the Guard will be ready to respond, if needed.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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ETA: The military just announced 30,000 more National Guard Troops to arrive in the region within 3 days. Fort Hood, Texas and Fort Bragg, NC have also both been put on alert to prepare troops to be deployed to the region.
The USNS Comfort Hospital Ship should be there before end of the week, and the USS Harry S. Truman (which by the way is the ship I'm reporting to in March) is expected to arrive next Thursday.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Bentley: No where in the Constitution does it say anything about the government doing anything to help anyone after a natural disaster.
You can't be serious. I don't care whether or not the Constitution specifically requires it. If governments don't exist to save the lives of hundreds of thousand of poor, homeless, starving, filthy, dehydrated, and hopeless people who are all in very grave danger of death, be it from starving, dehydration, disease, or getting shot by some asshole looter with a shotgun, then what the NFBSK are they for?
quote:The point I was trying to make is that National Guard was not created to go into a lawless floodplan to stop idiots from stealing Snicker Bars from a washed out Walgreens.
Come now. Surely you understand the seriousness of the situation. Belittling it in such a way is inexcusably disrespectful.
-------------------- ÒIf you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way.Ó -Emile Zola Posts: 1046 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
And the previous administrations had directed funding to work on it. This administration, however, directed funds *away* from it.
For this, the Bush administration, and this Congress, is to blame.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Bentley: ETA: The military just announced 30,000 more National Guard Troops to arrive in the region within 3 days. Fort Hood, Texas and Fort Bragg, NC have also both been put on alert to prepare troops to be deployed to the region.
The USNS Comfort Hospital Ship should be there before end of the week, and the USS Harry S. Truman (which by the way is the ship I'm reporting to in March) is expected to arrive next Thursday.
This is good news. But late--so late.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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Joe Bentley
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It takes a while to move one of those ships Chloe. Even the nuclear powered ones take a week to get from Norfolk around Florida to the gulf coast.
-------------------- "Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen Posts: 8929 | From: Norfolk, Virginia | Registered: Jun 2002
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It's your contention, then, that it was planned to send in those troops and troopships right from the beginning--from say, Saturday, the day that bus service to the city was cut off--, but they're just announcing it now?
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sorry, Chloe, but the storm was still raging Saturday - it wasn't until later on Sunday that a BIT of the damage was known. Every day more is seen. You can't roll back the clock and say that there should have been tens of thousands of troops just waiting in a big line in Baton Rouge - waiting for the rain to die down to get to NOLO. This kind of response takes time to generate and get going.
How many WEEKS were people without food/water in Sumatra? We have some people that refused to leave that have been without for a couple DAYS.
Give the rescuers a chance - and a break.
-------------------- Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...
Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it. Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003
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It may take weeks, but they should have been planning it. Knowing the levees could withstand a Cat 3 storm, contingency plans should have already been in the works for what to do in the even that a worse storm occurs.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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