quote:Originally posted by El Camino: I really think that the third one, basically standing up for myself, made the biggest difference. And you don't always have to stand up for yourself physically. My brother, who is very smart but also much more sociable than I was at his age (eleven years old), is also even less athletic and smaller than I was. He manages to avoid bullying with a quick wit and high ego. Just like me, in a lot of ways you think he'd make a good target for bullies (smart, nerdy, unathletic, plus he's small), but he avoids it by sticking up for himself with words.
There was one he was particularly proud of, and was eager to share with me. As this is his first year in middle school, we were a little concerned for the possibility of bullying, but he's doing great. On one occasion, some bully came over and was making fun of my brother for being smart, the usual stuff, and calling him a "dork." My brother retorted, "I prefer the term nerd, thank you." He was so proud of that.
But in any case, the point is that he didn't let the bully get away with it and idly take it, and so he's no longer a target.
Well, his bullies were a lot nicer than mine. It didn't matter what I said or tried. Ignoring them only egged them on, because I was obviously "accepting" it by remaining quiet. Trying to be sarcastic or witty just provoked them even more. If I said anything, it was mocked or ridiculed. If I didn't say anything, I was mocked and ridiculed. Every teacher who witnessed what was happening blamed me for my problems. Once even the assistant principal, who walked by and saw me alone at the lunch table, said with disgust, "What's the matter with you? You don't know how to make friends with anyone?"
On a daily basis for about seven years I was told I should stop being so "weird" (quiet, bookish, immune to fashion trends, etc). The implications were that if I completely changed everything about myself, the bullying would stop. I was smart enough to know that this was a trick. If I tried to be something I wasn't, I would look painfully awkward and be subjected to more ridicule. It was a no-win situation.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
My mother in law insists that if you ignore bullies, they leave you alone. She said that when boys would throw worms in her hair, she just shrugged it off and they left her alone. I don't know. I think she was just lucky. I tried that and like Cervus said, it just made them do it even more.
It didn't help that I had an illness I couldn't hide.
-------------------- It's like they took a bunch of movies, put them in a blender and turned it on really fast!-Mystery Science Theater 3000 Posts: 2603 | From: Magna, Utah | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
By all measures I should have been a huge target for bullies. I was small for my age, youngest in the class, bookish, smarter than average, uncoordinated, not good with putting together outfits, I liked bugs and science and I have a weird name. But I also have very good self esteem and a pretty big ego. So if I can ever figure out what my family did to make me think so highly of myself that teasing never grew into bullying, I think I will make a million dollars.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote:Originally posted by El Camino: I really think that the third one, basically standing up for myself, made the biggest difference. And you don't always have to stand up for yourself physically. My brother, who is very smart but also much more sociable than I was at his age (eleven years old), is also even less athletic and smaller than I was. He manages to avoid bullying with a quick wit and high ego. Just like me, in a lot of ways you think he'd make a good target for bullies (smart, nerdy, unathletic, plus he's small), but he avoids it by sticking up for himself with words.
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
My son also just wasn't any good with the quick witted retorts. That's not something you can teach someone to do. Either you can think of what to say right away or you can't. Coaching, role playing, etc - not really effective because when he's in the situation, it's never quiiiite the same and he just couldn't think of anything to say. ~ Also, you need to have the attitude to pull it off or they don't buy it and you almost make it worse.
My daughter will give back twice as much as she gets - her, I'm not worried about!!
-------------------- "Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit
(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad) Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:On a daily basis for about seven years I was told I should stop being so "weird" (quiet, bookish, immune to fashion trends, etc). The implications were that if I completely changed everything about myself, the bullying would stop. I was smart enough to know that this was a trick. If I tried to be something I wasn't, I would look painfully awkward and be subjected to more ridicule. It was a no-win situation.
What I found was that there is a middle ground. When I started high school, I took the opportunity to try to "fit in" more. I didn't try to follow all of the fashion trends or emulate the popular kids -- that would have made me look awkward and would have been ridiculed. Instead, I concentrated on what amounted to camoflage. I tried to be fashionable enough to blend into the faceless mass of the student body and not be noticed. I had started a sport (golf) solely because some form of physically active thing was required and I loathed PE with all of my being. I was surprised to discover just how much that helped my "reputation". I wasn't popular in high school by any means, but I had more friends and was pretty much left alone by bullies. I wish I had done this years earlier -- it would have made my life much easier.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by El Camino: I really think that the third one, basically standing up for myself, made the biggest difference.
Standing up for yourself is probably the best thing you can do to stop bullying, whether you do that verbally or physically. Unfortunately, the advice most commonly given to bullying victims (ignore them) is counter to that.
In your brother's case, I think being social may have helped as well. Bullies like to turn the crowd against their victim and that's harder when the victim is a sociable kid who is reasonably well liked. That's why they like to pick on unpopular loners, it's easier to get the crowd to join in laughing at them.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by VersesBatman: My mother in law insists that if you ignore bullies, they leave you alone. She said that when boys would throw worms in her hair, she just shrugged it off and they left her alone. I don't know. I think she was just lucky. I tried that and like Cervus said, it just made them do it even more.
My mom told me the same thing. And, like you, it made it even worse. I wish she taught me how to stand up for myself instead. My life might have turned out a lot different.
I was picked on, teased, called "fat and ugly", was threatened to get my butt kicked ("Back of the school!! 3 O'Clock!")every day during 6th, 7th and most of 8th grade. It was to the point where I actually considered taking my own life.
I still have no idea why I was such a target for these bullies. Trust me, I truly think that girls are worse then boys when it comes to this stuff. And from I hear in the media, they've gotten even worse.
Posts: 106 | From: Dumont, NJ | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ericsmom: [QUOTE] Trust me, I truly think that girls are worse then boys when it comes to this stuff. And from I hear in the media, they've gotten even worse.
I'm with you. I actually preferred the guy bullies to the girl ones because the guys never seemed to put anywhere near as much effort into picking on me, whereas the girls were out for blood. Also, girls were masters of that unique brand of psychological torment that lingers long after any bruises the guys might have given you have faded. Even today, while I am no good around people in general, I feel a little bit more comfortable with guys than with girls. Guys, if they are mad at you, you can read off their faces easily. Girls, on the other hand, no matter how friendly they may seem, I find myself mentally picking and prodding at them trying to figure out the hidden message behind their words.
-------------------- "You see? The mysteries of the Universe are revealed when you break stuff." Coop from MegasXLR
"I distrust who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony Posts: 2246 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ericsmom: [QUOTE] Trust me, I truly think that girls are worse then boys when it comes to this stuff. And from I hear in the media, they've gotten even worse.
I'm with you. I actually preferred the guy bullies to the girl ones because the guys never seemed to put anywhere near as much effort into picking on me, whereas the girls were out for blood. Also, girls were masters of that unique brand of psychological torment that lingers long after any bruises the guys might have given you have faded. Even today, while I am no good around people in general, I feel a little bit more comfortable with guys than with girls. Guys, if they are mad at you, you can read off their faces easily. Girls, on the other hand, no matter how friendly they may seem, I find myself mentally picking and prodding at them trying to figure out the hidden message behind their words.
Don't I know it. Weaker sex my fanny! Girls are like predators. Their memories are long. They are quick to judge. And yes, it's worse now with all the new technology. Vicious rumors can be spread quickly via tex messaging, chatrooms and e-mails. I am so scared for my daughter.
-------------------- It's like they took a bunch of movies, put them in a blender and turned it on really fast!-Mystery Science Theater 3000 Posts: 2603 | From: Magna, Utah | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ericsmom: [QUOTE] Trust me, I truly think that girls are worse then boys when it comes to this stuff. And from I hear in the media, they've gotten even worse.
I'm with you. I actually preferred the guy bullies to the girl ones because the guys never seemed to put anywhere near as much effort into picking on me, whereas the girls were out for blood. Also, girls were masters of that unique brand of psychological torment that lingers long after any bruises the guys might have given you have faded. Even today, while I am no good around people in general, I feel a little bit more comfortable with guys than with girls. Guys, if they are mad at you, you can read off their faces easily. Girls, on the other hand, no matter how friendly they may seem, I find myself mentally picking and prodding at them trying to figure out the hidden message behind their words.
You are totally right. Guys will punch each others lights out and then get over it, where girls will use some sort of teenage psychological torture for months on end. I'd rather have someone kick my ass then mentally abuse me.
I will never forget all the things that were said and done to me. Even 20 years later I can still remember how sick to my stomach I felt going to school everyday.
I lost 25 pounds during eighth grade and the summer going into high school. When school started nobody recognized me at first. The bullying stopped because I wasn't "fat" anymore.
Posts: 106 | From: Dumont, NJ | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ericsmom: You are totally right. Guys will punch each others lights out and then get over it, where girls will use some sort of teenage psychological torture for months on end. I'd rather have someone kick my ass then mentally abuse me.
Also, when you try to tell someone (a friend, a parent, an authority figure) "That girl won't stop teasing me" or "So-n-so said X," they tend to brush it off because it isn't physical abuse, and tell you to just buck up and sluff it off, as if it were that easy when it's happening all day every day.
-birdman
Posts: 1104 | From: near Cleveland, Ohio | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Girls can be vile, but - my son's bullies were pretty good at being sneaky. I wouldn't call it honest and above board, "let's just have a go with fisticuffs and then we'll all have tea!" In his case there was plenty of mental stuff going on too.
Though I do agree - in fact it's not even debatable - girls have a different way of doing it and they can be the most evil, soulless, hateful little ghouls when they do.
-------------------- "Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit
(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad) Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
There was also a weird turn-around in my situation. This one girl, who once was a friend, decided to join the gang in the teasing and name calling. My way of silent retaliation was prank calling her late at night (remember I was only 13 or 14!). As it turned out, she had a tracer on her phone and the cops showed up at my house and her family was going to press charges on me.
The next day in school, this girl told everyone about the police and the parnk phone calls, etc. As it turns out, everyone all of a sudden hated her. They all said things like "but ericsmom is so quiet and never bothers anyone! How could she send the cops to ericsmom's house". They also thought it was pretty badass that I was almost arrested. Back then, it was kind of cool to be known as a trouble-maker.
Posts: 106 | From: Dumont, NJ | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've never been a violent person. I've never even been in a real fight. I was always a rule-follower, and I figured it was wrong to punch someone who wasn't actually hitting me, even if they were spitting on me/stealing my shoes and throwing them onto roofs/sticking gum in my hair etc.
Looking back, I really wish I'd tried to kick the crap out of at least one of those guys.
But in a way, I got my revenge like Jessboo. At my 10-year reunion, the guy who'd been one of my worst tormentors was falling all over himself trying to get me to dance with him. The guys who'd ignored me in high school too. I like to say I was a "late bloomer".
-------------------- "He feeds the sparrows of the field, but He doesn't sit there and cram worms into their mouths." -- Mouse Posts: 396 | From: Pasadena, CA | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by UrbanReindeer: I've never been a violent person. I've never even been in a real fight. I was always a rule-follower, and I figured it was wrong to punch someone who wasn't actually hitting me, even if they were spitting on me/stealing my shoes and throwing them onto roofs/sticking gum in my hair etc.
I was like that for a long time. I made a huge effort to turn the other cheek, to ignore, to not retaliate, to obey all the rules and do what the adults around me said I should. I never resorted to violence. I reported incidents to teachers as I'd been told. I had this futile hope that, by doing all of these things, the bullying would end -- either because the bullies would all get bored and go away (HAH!) or because the teachers and other adults around me would protect me as I'd been repeatedly promised they would. This never happened. For a long time, I blamed myself. I was convinced that I was simply not being sufficiently "good" and redoubled my efforts to make the adults in charge see me as a "good kid" deserving of protection. It never worked.
Of course, I realize now that all of this must have made me look like a huge suck-up, a tattletale and a "good kid" of the sort many kids find generally insufferable. I'm sure it only made things worse.
As I said above, I finally had all I could stand and went berserk on a bully.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Fun with a 9mm: I find it odd that there are no Snopesters chiming in about being a bully when they were younger. Now THAT would be some interesting dialog.
In some thread, not too long ago, Troodon admitted to bully-like behavior.
The conversation was very interesting, indeed.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was bullied from elementary school to middle school. In seventh grade I was actually taken out and home schooled by my mom, partially because I was being bullied so intensely, and partially because I needed intensive help to cope with my severe learning disabilities.
Anyway, when I returned to public high school in ninth grade it was like nobody knew me, and I was also 6'2” by that time so nobody tried to mess with me physically. I found that if I laid low nobody would bully me; I could disappear into the crowd. During my years at high school people were being bullied around me, and even though I had been bullied for years and years, I did nothing to help them, because I was afraid that the focus of attention would return to me.
I am looking back, just one year, at my high school experience, and I can say that I am absolutely ashamed of the inaction and cowardice I demonstrated in high school. In many ways I feel that by doing nothing I acted as badly, or worse, than the bullies themselves. I wish I could somehow justify my decisions, and I’ve reflected on the subject at length-- and there really are no justifications or excuses for what I did.
-------------------- Obi Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Anakin: "Um, isn't your last statement an absolute?" Posts: 166 | From: San Antonio, Texas | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thought I would add that I was neither bully or bullied. I did spend a lot of time defending other kids from bullies. I was friends with kids from every clique, from the Stoners to the Preps, and accepted in most of them.
In High school I was voted "Most Tactless" because I frequently told people exactly what I thought of their actions.
-------------------- I'm not mean, you're just a big sissy. -Happy Bunny
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.- Verbal Kint
Trespassers will be pelted with jellyfish.- Daniel Cluley Posts: 221 | From: Bradenton, FL | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
My first suicide attempt happened when I was in 6th grade, after a day in which I was chased down by some of the boys in my class and had snow shoved down my clothing and in my face. I just. wanted. it. to. end.
I was bullied up through my senior year of highschool, when I finally stood up to one of them (verbally) and was backed up by an adult. My so-called best friend, who did her best to distance herself from me on the tortuous ride home on the school bus reiterated that I should have just ignored them.
And people wonder why I was not all enthiasm about going back for my high school reunions.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
My first suicide attempt happened when I was in 6th grade, after a day in which I was chased down by some of the boys in my class and had snow shoved down my clothing and in my face. I just. wanted. it. to. end.
I was bullied up through my senior year of highschool, when I finally stood up to one of them (verbally) and was backed up by an adult. My so-called best friend, who did her best to distance herself from me on the tortuous ride home on the school bus reiterated that I should have just ignored them.
And people wonder why I was not all enthiasm about going back for my high school reunions.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hero_Mike: There are a small number of kids who manage to get through school as neither bully nor victim. They tend to be popular but shy, but they are really cowards because they tacitly approve of the bullying around them.
I'm not sure about this. I hate to sound like I'm rationalizing, but I was neither a bully nor a victim. I know I was not a bully because I hardly interacted with other kids at all- just with my two best buddies. I was not popular and not particularly shy, just not interested in the games the other kids played. Nevertheless I cannot recall a single time when I could have spoken out against someone's being bullied. I don't recall seeing much bullying at all. It's possible that my school district was magically free of bullying, but it's more likely that the bullying was done where others, those who weren't sympathetic to the bullies, couldn't see or hear.
Maybe I'm being too sensitive but I feel you're painting with too broad a brush there.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hero_Mike: There are a small number of kids who manage to get through school as neither bully nor victim. They tend to be popular but shy, but they are really cowards because they tacitly approve of the bullying around them.
I'm not sure about this. I hate to sound like I'm rationalizing, but I was neither a bully nor a victim. I know I was not a bully because I hardly interacted with other kids at all- just with my two best buddies. I was not popular and not particularly shy, just not interested in the games the other kids played. Nevertheless I cannot recall a single time when I could have spoken out against someone's being bullied. I don't recall seeing much bullying at all. It's possible that my school district was magically free of bullying, but it's more likely that the bullying was done where others, those who weren't sympathetic to the bullies, couldn't see or hear.
Maybe I'm being too sensitive but I feel you're painting with too broad a brush there.
I agree with you Thistle. I wasn't particualrly bullied at school, although there were isolated occasions, and I certainly never bullied anyone myself. But I was also completely unaware of any actual bullying going on around me; my friends were not bullied either. I know that my school was a hotbed of bullying, because my sister was bullied for the whole five years she was there, but I didn't find that out until many years after we both left.
Because we weren't allowed out of the school building and the teachers were around all the time, the bullying at my school was exceedingly subtle and generally took place off school premises - my sister was bullied by people who caught the same train home as her. They were as nice as pie to her in school, however. So I never saw any bullying taking place in school, and because I went to and frim school with my friends on the bus (as opposed to with my sister on the the train), I never saw any of it happening on a regular basis around me.
(The bullying behaviour I have experienced came later in life, at sixth form and work.)
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thistles and Mosherette - I think that there may be another possibility of what I said. There are people who are neither bully nor victim, but they fail to notice what is happening around them.
It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
This isn't to say that everyone who did so was so self-absorbed or isolated that they didn't care, but I personally have a hard time believing that it neither happened, or that people didn't notice it.
Being the victim too often, I would have been happy - ecstatic even - to have that happen to me. Just once, when we moved and I changed schools, it would have been nice to not be the victim. Having experienced being the victim myself, the first time this happened, I probably wouldn't have done anything more than walk away and say "at least this time it's not me". But I know that I couldn't go on and let someone else just "take it", for no good reason, just as I had.
Ignoring bullies in the real world doesn't work. Not at any level. They need to be crushed, humiliated, defeated, or in extreme cases, dismembered.
If I had super powers, I think I would use them to vaporize schoolyard bullies.
-------------------- "The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat Posts: 1587 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, it's hard to notice something that you aren't looking for when it's intentionally kept out of your sight, especially when you are yourself a small child.
I feel like you're to some extent blaming those of us who were neutral parties. That strikes me as unfair.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Indeed. I'm not saying it didn't happen because it quite obviously did - see what I said re: my sister. But I didn't know it was happening at the time, and it didn't happen around me, to my friends or the people I was around at school. No one knew my sister was being bullied - not me, our parents, her best friend even - until many years after the fact; only she and her bully ever knew anything about it until much later.
I didn't fail to notice what was happening around me; it wasn't happening around me in the first place. It might have happened to people I knew and was even friends with, but it never happened when I was there. If these people never told me what was going on and it never went on in my presence, how was I supposed to know?
I've often wondered if I was in fact completely oblivious, but I've talked to a close friend from my schooldays about it and she knows of no bullying in our peer group either, and she stayed in contact with more people and for longer than I did.
Note: my sister and I assiduously avoided each other during our childhoods.
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I think there is another explanation, in addition to those put forth, about why those who aren't bullied and who don't bully don't speak up.
Sometimes they don't identify certain behaviors as bullying.
My nephew -- an outsider, at best, at his school -- sat at our table with my son who was in his school's band and unmercifully mocked kids who were in band at his school, simply because they were in band. Band members at his school included some of his circle of friends. But my nephew was absolutely convinced that there was nothing wrong with tormenting band members. Why? Because his school was firmly entrenched in the Culture of Football and the football team mocked the band so that made it ok. He was shocked that anyone might stick up for the band, that there was anything wrong with his attitude. He would never occur to him to identify the behavior towards band members as bullying.
While I don't believe my nephew ever did anything to bully a band member himself, he certainly wouldn't have said anything if someone else did bacause, in his words, "Well, c'mon, it's the band."
That's a lot like when there is one child who is fair game for being picked on -- the Designated Picked On Kid. Every school, if not every grade, has one. Someone who others feel free to say or do anything to because s/he is percieved, for some reason, to not deserve any sort of respect. Maybe s/he's not attractive, or poor, or mildly disabled in some way, or fat, or thin.....there are all sorts of illogical rationales. Few people would identify that behavior as "bullying" because, (as a teacher of mine once said), "After all, it's only Linda."
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mosherette: I've often wondered if I was in fact completely oblivious, but I've talked to a close friend from my schooldays about it and she knows of no bullying in our peer group either, and she stayed in contact with more people and for longer than I did.
That's the key - "in our peer group". You may have been in an isolated group and not one of your immediate friends was being bullied. But it happened around you.
I think that, as Thistles says, when it happens at a young age you don't really understand it. But when you have kids over 10 and you get the "group" bullying - where people get ostracized for no good reason by the cool, popular, and/or wealthy kids - I find it hard not to notice it. Or for that matter, to believe that it did not exist.
Maybe I should have been more clear in what I said, because it was a bit too all-encompassing - but I do blame those who see it and turn away as being part of the problem. I just have a hard time believing that there would be many people who didn't see it.
-------------------- "The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat Posts: 1587 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sara Claus at home: I think there is another explanation, in addition to those put forth, about why those who aren't bullied and who don't bully don't speak up.
Sometimes they don't identify certain behaviors as bullying.
My nephew -- an outsider, at best, at his school -- sat at our table with my son who was in his school's band and unmercifully mocked kids who were in band at his school, simply because they were in band. Band members at his school included some of his circle of friends. But my nephew was absolutely convinced that there was nothing wrong with tormenting band members. Why? Because his school was firmly entrenched in the Culture of Football and the football team mocked the band so that made it ok. He was shocked that anyone might stick up for the band, that there was anything wrong with his attitude. He would never occur to him to identify the behavior towards band members as bullying.
While I don't believe my nephew ever did anything to bully a band member himself, he certainly wouldn't have said anything if someone else did bacause, in his words, "Well, c'mon, it's the band."
That's a lot like when there is one child who is fair game for being picked on -- the Designated Picked On Kid. Every school, if not every grade, has one. Someone who others feel free to say or do anything to because s/he is percieved, for some reason, to not deserve any sort of respect. Maybe s/he's not attractive, or poor, or mildly disabled in some way, or fat, or thin.....there are all sorts of illogical rationales. Few people would identify that behavior as "bullying" because, (as a teacher of mine once said), "After all, it's only Linda."
I agree with this assessment completely. I was the Designated Picked-On Kid everywhere I went, which eventually led to my disillusionment with the Boy Scouts.
[ANECDOTE] During one game of "Hop the Gauntlet" (a game involving hopping on one foot while trying to knock your opponent over), a boy who went to my school knocked me over and deliberately kicked me in the face.
Before anyone suggests otherwise, there was no way it could have been anything other than deliberate. We were both holding our non-hopping foot with a hand to keep from accidentally putting it down.
So what happened? I was punished for trying to attack him in retaliation, while he wasn't even asked to apologize.
Yeah. People talk about the Boy Scouts building community and fellowship, but in reality they're just another clique.
In a seperate incident in a different state, my school was having a choir program wherein the choirs of each grade got up and performed for the rest of the school. After my grade was done, we sat down, and the boy sitting in the chair next to me started punching me for no reason. He got a single detention for punching me, while I got three for crying out. [/ANECDOTE]
A big part of this, as I see it, is that many childhood bullies end up in positions of authority as adults. That's just speculation on my part, but despite all the kid's shows and after-school specials, I've never seen a bully, when questioned about their actions, say "because I felt like it." In my experience, they always come up with some excuse or justification based on their victim's personality or actions.
Unfortunately, (again, in my own experience), the adults who were the authorities of the situation often agreed. No bully I encountered in my childhood ever recieved more than a token punishment for anything they did. This suggests to me that the authorities had also been bullies in their childhood, because they always sympathized with the bully more than the victim.
I think I'll leave it at that for now...I apologize if this post comes off as a whine about my crappy childhood. Bullies and their ilk are a real sore spot for me, not least because of my shame over my (thankfully) brief foray into it.
Posts: 213 | From: Point of Rocks, MD | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sara Claus at home: Sometimes they don't identify certain behaviors as bullying.
I think that's a big part of the problem.
I also think many kids vastly underestimate the effect of bullying behavior (whether they think it's bullying or not). I think they look on tormenting some other kid as being a bit of harmless fun and are mystified when someone makes a big deal out of it.
I have wondered if this sort of thing is why so many of us had such a hard time getting adult help with bullying as kids. I wonder a lot of the adults carried these attitudes into adulthood and were thinking that we were basically making a big deal out of nothing (AKA, whining), thinking we deserved it (becuase we were a band kid, nerd or whatever) or both.
I had a big problem with adults insisting that I was exaggerating what was happening and that it couldn't possibly be as bad as I said it was. They couldn't seem to understand that it wasn't just a bit of "harmless teasing" that could be easily ignored. That went on until some of my bullies happened to catch up to me in front of my grandmother's house where she heard and saw the whole thing. She dragged the whole story out of me and I remember the vicious glee I felt when I sat there and listened as she called my father (her son) and tore into him about brushing off my bullying problem. (Go grandma!)
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dancing Dragon: A big part of this, as I see it, is that many childhood bullies end up in positions of authority as adults. That's just speculation on my part, but despite all the kid's shows and after-school specials, I've never seen a bully, when questioned about their actions, say "because I felt like it." In my experience, they always come up with some excuse or justification based on their victim's personality or actions.
That's very true. The only exception I can think of is a bully who basically said "because I can" when asked why he was picking on me, though he was careful to only say that to me and never to an adult. With adults, it was all how I was just so annoying that he had no choice but to pick on me.
quote:Originally posted by Dancing Dragon: Unfortunately, (again, in my own experience), the adults who were the authorities of the situation often agreed. No bully I encountered in my childhood ever recieved more than a token punishment for anything they did. This suggests to me that the authorities had also been bullies in their childhood, because they always sympathized with the bully more than the victim.
I've often wondered if bullying victims are less likely to go into education than either bullies or the kids who didn't really think of bullying as bullying (like Sara's nephew). That would have the effect of perpetuating the problem because the people most likely to sympathize with the bullied kids aren't going into education where they can have a maximum effect while those who are more likely to ignore the problem or even encourage it are the ones who go into education.
By chance, I discovered that the current superintendent of the school district I attended growing up is man who was the vice-principal and then principal of the middle school when I was there. He was the one most likely to brush me off when I complained of being bullied, the most likely to accuse me of provoking my bullies and the one most likely to claim anyone who might back up my version of events of lying. The only time he would intervene was when it was deemed to be a fight and then every participant was punished equally. Actually figthing back was not a requirement. I once dropped to the ground and curled up in a ball in an effort to avoid a whipping yet got the same whipping the other boy got just the same. I feel very sorry for bullied kids in that district.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dancing Dragon: I've never seen a bully, when questioned about their actions, say "because I felt like it." In my experience, they always come up with some excuse or justification based on their victim's personality or actions.
I have, however, observed this:
Adult: Why did you hit him? Bully: I don't know. {shrug} Adult: Well you must have had some reason. Bully: {pause} I don't know. {shrug}
Because they know if they say "because I felt like it" or "because he wears glasses" it will sound bad. But if he plays dumb, then it's just boys-will-be-boys.
MaxKaladin also brought up a good point about the cumulative effect of bullying. When I was a kid, one of my friends was short and was mocked for it, as kids tend to do. I didn't think it was that bad, and wondered why he had such a Napoleon complex about it. But that's because I only saw part of it; I wasn't around him all day every day to see just how many people were commenting on his height. (BTW, this complex continued on into high school, even after he was of average height.)
-birdman
Posts: 1104 | From: near Cleveland, Ohio | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mosherette: I've often wondered if I was in fact completely oblivious, but I've talked to a close friend from my schooldays about it and she knows of no bullying in our peer group either, and she stayed in contact with more people and for longer than I did.
That's the key - "in our peer group". You may have been in an isolated group and not one of your immediate friends was being bullied. But it happened around you.
I think that, as Thistles says, when it happens at a young age you don't really understand it. But when you have kids over 10 and you get the "group" bullying - where people get ostracized for no good reason by the cool, popular, and/or wealthy kids - I find it hard not to notice it. Or for that matter, to believe that it did not exist.
Maybe I should have been more clear in what I said, because it was a bit too all-encompassing - but I do blame those who see it and turn away as being part of the problem. I just have a hard time believing that there would be many people who didn't see it.
I never saw hardcore bullying at my school. I saw, particpated in and was the victim of mild teasing [ETA] amongst my group of friends [/ETA] at high school (aged 11-16); I saw one fight between two of the hardest girls in the school and no way was I getting involved in that, thanks, and that's it. Like I said in my first post, because we were kept so much under the thumb at my school I think it was actually very difficult for bullying to take place inside the school, and it generally happened away from the premises, as happened to my sister. So, no, I didn't see it, and if you have a hard time beliving that then there's not much I can do about it.
I agree that those who see it and turn away are part of the problem.
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mosherette: I've often wondered if I was in fact completely oblivious, but I've talked to a close friend from my schooldays about it and she knows of no bullying in our peer group either, and she stayed in contact with more people and for longer than I did.
That's the key - "in our peer group". You may have been in an isolated group and not one of your immediate friends was being bullied. But it happened around you.
I think that, as Thistles says, when it happens at a young age you don't really understand it. But when you have kids over 10 and you get the "group" bullying - where people get ostracized for no good reason by the cool, popular, and/or wealthy kids - I find it hard not to notice it. Or for that matter, to believe that it did not exist.
Maybe I should have been more clear in what I said, because it was a bit too all-encompassing - but I do blame those who see it and turn away as being part of the problem. I just have a hard time believing that there would be many people who didn't see it.
I'm sure Thistles and Mosh truly didn't have an opportunity to see and object to bullying, as far as they knew. No blame on them. But, what you say, that bystanders can be part of the problem or part of the solution, is certainly believed to be true by some people, at least, because some of the anti bullying programs (and from what I've read, these are the most successful ones) focus a LOT on raising the awareness of it and responsibility for it on the part of the bystanders.
If everyone else who is just watching has been made to realize what is going on and they say to the bully, "hey dude, that is REAL uncool and you need to quit that now," it changes the dynamic considerably from the other two possible scenarios - that of watching in quiet fear that they will be next, or even joining in a little.
When you give these kids the tools to do this, even if they aren't bullied, they feel better, because one reason (as several snopesters have mentioned) that onlookers do nothing is that they are afraid they will become, themselves, the focus of the bullies.
I think one reason nobody ever helped out my son was that he, for some reason I'll never understand, (had to have been his meekness - he was goodlooking, tall, sense of humor, smart. He was just...slow to react, and gentle.) was the designated scapegoat. As long as it was HIM, it wouldn't be someone else, and they were all fine with letting him and not themselves get the pickin' on. It's natural to be afraid and protect one's self in this way - it's not especially evolved, unselfish, brave, or mature - but we can't expect those kinds of characteristics out of the average kid unless we have taken action to help them know how to be those things. Those sorts of characteristics - being able to face up to a bully and say, "hey, that's bogus, stop that crap now cause you aren't really impressing us" are the kind that very rarely, you find a young person who is just that cool and okay with himself and sort of wise beyond his or her years to have. But it doesn't seem to just happen on it's own, without help from adults, terribly often.
-------------------- "Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit
(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad) Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
