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Author Topic: What's so bad about Nelson Mandela?
Guinastasia
The Red and the Green Stamps


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On some boards I've frequented, I've seen people refer to Mandela as a communist, a terrorist, etc. What's the real deal? Was he really a terrorist? I was under the impression he was working to peacefully change things, that it was his ex-wife who got caught up with terrorists.
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rossdawg
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I believe the story about his arrest was he was travelling with some dynamite when he got picked up by the police originally. His now ex-wife's body guards, the Football Club, supposedly took part in multiple kidnappings, extortions, beatings, terrorism and the like.
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Anthony
The Red and the Green Stamps


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His ex-wife was not a nice person.

As for him, whatever he did before his arrest (and I would point out that the activities of the ANC's armed wing did not extent to PLO type terrorism), after his release and election as president, he did alot to try to reconcile the country.

He was not perfect, but he could have become a dictator and no one would have stopped him. Instead, he stepped down after one term.

Now, compare that with his fellow "freedom fighter" Robert Mugabe.


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FreeMary
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I thought Mandela was pretty clean until I read My Traitor's Heart by Rian Malan. It's definitely worth reading. After I read it, it was very difficult to get through Mandela's Long Walk to Freedom.

FreeMary


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Swamp Fox
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Here is the truth about Mandela and tha ANC in Rhodesia and South Africa. You marxist-indoctinated 20-somethings need to face the truth and the truth is not pretty.

When Terrorists win & rule countries... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos4.asp
1990, The Outlook is gloomy... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos14.asp
Landmines in Southern Africa... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos5.asp
The Russians in Mozambique... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos12.asp
(Important) The Russians in Angola... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos13.asp
(Important) The Russians & Communists in South Africa... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos15.asp
The Planned Russian Invasion of Rhodesia... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos6.asp
The Liberators were Communists... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos7.asp
(Gruesome) Terror in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos8.asp
(Gruesome) Terror in Angola... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos9.asp
(Bloody) Terror in South Africa... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos11.asp
(Bloody) More terror in South Africa (on another website)... http://home.mweb.co.za/sa/savimbi/photo1.htm
Robert Mugabe: The Racist Marxist... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos3.asp
(Bloody) Zimbabwe (from 2002-present)... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos10.asp
(Gruesome) Farm Murders in South Africa (from 1994-present)... http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos16.asp


Guinestasia, you are right, communists are not racists. They murder, torture, and mutliate blacks and whites alike. The Whites under apatheid never did this kind of butchery.


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Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox:
Here is the truth about Mandela . . .

Er, not really. Just about all your references relate to Robert Mugabe, not Nelson Mandella.


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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox:
http://WWW.AfricanCrisis.Org/Photos4.asps16.asp[/URL]

And more a lot of pages at AfricanCrisis.org.

quote:
The Webmaster of this racist site states:
About this Website and its owner: I was born in Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia), lived there until Mugabe took over and moved to South Africa where I have lived for over 20 years.

To the land where apartheid still prevailed.

quote:
It has always been obvious to me that there is not one ounce of difference between Mugabe's Zanu(PF) party and Mandela/Mbeki's ANC. Many people who know both countries have remarked on how trends in Zimbabwe precede those in South Africa by 10-20 years.

Yes, apartheid will come to an end, and an agrarian reformation will restore the people of South Africa their rights upon their lands.

quote:
This website and my book are about the deception in both countries, of how they will walk the same path and why, in the end, whites, like the Jews in Hitler's Germany, will be singled out, persecuted, murdered and driven from the African continent as we enter the new, and Second phase of "Liberation".

Like they unsucessfully tried to do to black people?

quote:
It should be remembered that from the first, whites in Africa had said that the so-called "Liberation" of Africa was not going to benefit the common black man, and that in the end, it was about a bunch of Marxists/Socialists being placed in power by Russia and China. Blacks in Africa are now far worse off than 40 years ago, and many of them flee to Europe and America in hordes instead of standing their ground and fighting for the principles they supposedly believe in.

Yeah. Slavery was sooooo much better.

quote:
Most of Africa has fallen into disrepair and become a failure, and yet, one still finds people who somehow want to believe that South Africa will be different, even though the trend since 1994 has clearly shown that we are doomed to the same.

Now, what about giving us some e-adresses for the KKK?

Luís Henrique


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FreeMary
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox:
Here is the truth about Mandela and tha ANC in Rhodesia and South Africa. You marxist-indoctinated 20-somethings need to face the truth and the truth is not pretty.

Ouch, ouch, ouch! During the course of my "marxist-indoctinated" (sic) education, a wise man told me this: all dichotomies are false. I'm not too fond of dividing the world into good and evil, black and white. I think that's how these messy things get started.

FreeMary


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FreeMary
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox:
Guinestasia, you are right, communists are not racists. They murder, torture, and mutliate blacks and whites alike. The Whites under apatheid never did this kind of butchery.

No, the whites in power under apartheid preferred to torture by more subtle means. Does the name Biko mean anything to you?

Oooh, I'm getting away from this thread before my head explodes.


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Anthony
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quote:
Originally posted by Swamp Fox:
Here is the truth about Mandela and tha ANC in Rhodesia and South Africa. You marxist-indoctinated 20-somethings need to face the truth and the truth is not pretty.


WOW! I have been called many things, but a "marxist-indoctinated 20-something" has never been one of them.

(Given, I guess, that I am a 30-something conservative).

My point on Mandela is that he could have been Mugabe and he was not. He was elected in a free election, stood for one term, and then left office, to a successor chosen in a free election.

South Africa has many problems, most importantly high crime and a high AIDS rate, it has not fallen into the Zimbabwe class. Might it? Maybe. But it is not now.

As for what happened prior Mandela's release, I admit that some nasty things happened on both sides.


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Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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You guys aren't all Marxist-indoctrinated 20-somethings?

Pah. I'm off then.

SwampFox describes himself as a "Communist Fighter" in his profile. I don't understand - is he a member of a red revolutionary army, or is he John Rambo? I think we should be told!

--------------------
I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.


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Guinastasia
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Would you guys believe that my question actually stems from a "debate" I was having with the webmaster of Africancrisis.org?

Marxist? Give me a break! I hate Marx. I don't like communism-I think it's a hideous, disgusting brutal system. However, one does not have to be a communist to be a brutal opressor. Somoza, Pinochet, Hitler, Mussolini were all violently anti-communist, and I wouldn't want them in charge. The whole idea that communism is the biggest evil facing the planet and that anything is preferable is dangerous and disgusting.


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Anthony
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quote:
Originally posted by Guinastasia:
Would you guys believe that my question actually stems from a "debate" I was having with the webmaster of Africancrisis.org?

Mandela said clearly many times, including in his trial, that he was NOT a communist. The ANC if anything was soft socialist or social democratic in its economic outlook, but economics played second fiddle there anyway.

Mandela did have communist allies (but then again, in WWII, so did we). The SA Communist party was part of the ANC.

Once he was released from prision, Mandela was attacked by "progressive" elements in SA and the US because he was willing to work within the SA system. I remember listening to the NY Pacifica station, WBAI (I was gather intelligence ) and hearing Mandela attacked because he was telling young South Africans to go back to school and work instead of . . . well, I am not really sure what they wanted. I guess a bloody communist revolution.


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greenphan
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Communists are vile? Huh? Am I missing something? The so-called "communist" nations (China, Cuba, Russia, etc.) are/were vile, cruel, oppressive, etc., but anyone with any knowledge of political science could tell you that they are not truly communist nations in the same vein that America is not a democracy.

--jeremy


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greenphan
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Communists are vile? Huh? Am I missing something? The so-called "communist" nations (China, Cuba, Russia, etc.) are/were vile, cruel, oppressive, etc., but anyone with any knowledge of political science could tell you that they are not truly communist nations in the same vein that America is not a democracy.
What you call yourself and what are you do not always coincide.

If you think about it, ideal communism is a beautiful pipe-dream: it seems nice but would never, ever happen. That's the way I see it anyways. As for the nations that claim to be communist, I don't think any (except maybe Cuba on a good day) come close to a communist ideal. They are stuck in socialist limbo and should be labeled as such.

--jeremy


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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
all dichotomies are false.

All generalities are false, too. Including this one.

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Well, I'm a 30-something conservative too, (Marx was simply WRONG) and I'm bright enough to realize that Mandela is/was no Mugabe.

The trekd in news from Africa does make me wonder sometimes, though, if 'Africa' and 'Democracy' are mutually exclusive terms.

I mean, it happens over and over again; one group or people struggle long and hard for freedom from repression, wins at long last... and transmutes itself into the very thing it fought against.

Even governments which are supposed to be modeled on that of the US... well, Liberia, anyone? How long did that civil war last?

SA does seem to be the most stable country on the continent at the moment. Here's hoping it stays that way.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle


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FreeMary
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:

All generalities are false, too. Including this one.

(Sorry, couldn't resist).


I know, I know! Isn't it beautiful? My pet quote proves itself!

Free "All smarty-pants comments are false" Mary


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chinpira
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Actually, Hitler and the German Nazi party were socialists and had much in common with Communism contrary to those that try to portray Hitler's Germany as extreme right wingers. I just read an interesting site that makes some great points about this, but will not post it for fear of offending, umm, people.
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chinpira
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:


The trekd in news from Africa does make me wonder sometimes, though, if 'Africa' and 'Democracy' are mutually exclusive terms.

I mean, it happens over and over again; one group or people struggle long and hard for freedom from repression, wins at long last... and transmutes itself into the very thing it fought against.

Even governments which are supposed to be modeled on that of the US... well, Liberia, anyone? How long did that civil war last?

SA does seem to be the most stable country on the continent at the moment. Here's hoping it stays that way.



I feel bad about the problems that affect SA nowadays. They had a bad label attached to them, the rape capital of the world. Even more horrific is the rise in rape of infants. Not to mention AIDS and carjacking and crime overall. What is the leadership doing to fight this?


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Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Actually, Hitler and the German Nazi party were socialists and had much in common with Communism contrary to those that try to portray Hitler's Germany as extreme right wingers

Isn't this partly due to the different weight that ther term "right" carries in Europe as compared to the USA? I'm sure this came up in another thread, but to me, "right-wing" does indeed conjure up the boot-boy side of the fascist project.

In a purely economic sense you may have a point, in that Nazi policies involved the high level of state control and investment that Americans associate with the left, but I imagine that had the German Socialist (SPD) party itself been in power their policies would have been significantly different from those of the Nazis. It's important that what the Nazis were peddling wasn't just "socialism" (which surely has international aspirations), but "National socialism", which I think is a different animal. The Nazis promised not only the kind of social reforms that are associated with socialist government and an appeal to the working classes, but also the economic growth and recovery which would appeal to the middle classes and industrialists. In return they did such un-socialist things as abolish the unions and forbid strikes...

The term "right" in Europe is very much associated with people who have a racist/ultra-nationalist agenda. I know nothing about the economic policies of the racist BNP, but I would consider them a "far right" party. Jean-Marie Le Pen is considered right wing in France. It is that aspect of the Hitler period which is recalled as "right wing".

Embra

--------------------
I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.


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JK Will
The Red and the Green Stamps


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The name of East Germany was the DDR or German DEMOCRAT REPUBLIC.

Hmm... considering the similarity of these last two words to the two major parties in the USA this clearly demonstrates that it is ruled by East European communist exiles who want to turn NATO into the Warsaw pact.

JK "this kind of thinking is called 'fallacy'" Will


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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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chinpira, short answer below. A longer one to come later.

quote:
Originally posted by chinpira:
Actually, Hitler and the German Nazi party were socialists

No, they weren't.

quote:
and had much in common with Communism

No, they hadn't. Even if you call Stalinism "Communism".

quote:
contrary to those that try to portray Hitler's Germany as extreme right wingers.

You mean mankind?!

quote:
I just read an interesting site that makes some great points about this, but will not post it for fear of offending, umm, people.

I can just imagine.

Luís Henrique


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La Marmotte
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Well, the term "right" is not commonly associated with racist, xenophobic, nationalist parties such as the Front National. They are usually described as "Far right" parties, while "right" describe the current parties of the oposition (RPR, UDF and such). But it's true that the Front National may be considered "right wing", as the Communist party (Far Left) is also a "left wing" party.

BTW, good news, it seems that Le Pen won't be able to collect his necessary 500 signatures for the incoming presdential election...


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Guinastasia
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Actually, you could compare the Nazis and the Bolsheviks, if you look at methods of madness and the way they dealt with the population. As one of my professors-a man who defected from the USSR in the early 80s-explained, they were actually very similiar in ideology. In that they both used torture, control, fear, etc.

It was their basic philosophy that was different. But either way-dictators and oppressive regimes=bad. I don't care what end of the political spectrum you're on.


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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by chinpira:
Actually, Hitler and the German Nazi party were socialists

No, they weren't. They used the term "socialist" for the name of their party (National-Socialist Party of the German Workers), but:

- they were against social equality;
- they were in favour of private enterprise;
- they tought class struggle should (and could!) be supressed;
- they were against working class movements (and would suppress them by violence, even before coming into power);
- they were nationalist, jingoistic and actively pro-war;
- they had nothing to do with any socialist intellectual tradition - they did not read Marx, or Proudhon, or Babeuf, or Bakunin, or whatever; on the contrary, they would burn books by any of these authors, and others;
- they fought Cummunists, and Socialdemocrats, on the streets of German cities before coming to power, and suppressed these parties (and others), and jailed and murdered their leaders after that.

If you like to know, Vladimir Jirinovski's ultra right wing party in Russia is (was?) called "Liberal Democratic Party". This does not make him Liberal, nor Democratic, and this does not make McGovern an anti-semithic chauvinist.

"National Socialism" is an oxymoron. Socialism is a movement (among other things) against social inequality, and nations are in itself a form of inequality.

quote:
and had much in common with Communism

You would have a slightly better case if you said that there are some features in common between Nazism and Stalinism. Even then, however, there are striking differences. The Nazis never thought of expropriating the German bourgeoisie (which, in fact, strongly backed them with money and political support). If it is true that they did introduce atate planning of the economy, this planning was always conducted with the aproval of the big trusts, and on behalf of them. Stalin, on the other hand, came to power in a situation in which the bourgeoisie had already been expropriated. The Russian equivalents of Krupp were never cozy with Stalin as the German trusts were with Hitler; in fact, they were in the West, scheming, conspiring and hiring troops against the "Soviet" State. We could, of course, wonder if Stalin would have nationalised anything if it was not handed down to him this way, but this already "iftory".

quote:
contrary to those that try to portray Hitler's Germany as extreme right wingers.

This means all serious historians, political scientists and sociologists I know, regardless of their political orientation - liberals, socialists, conservative. In fact, I would dare say that contending this view is a fringe position, generaly hold by two different kind of extreme right-wingers: those who would say that "Hitler was not that bad, he was even Socialist" (and who generally will explain how Zyklon B was intended to control lice), and those who will tell you that Nazism is the same as Stalinism which is the same as Communism, that is the same as Socialism, so you must kill those Socialdemocrat Union leaders that are striking for better wages before they start randomly slaughtering Jews (whick seems to be the particular kind of madness prevalent at AfricanCrisis.org, for instance).

quote:
I just read an interesting site that makes some great points about this, but will not post it for fear of offending, umm, people.

Seriously, you know this means you are aware that the content of these sites cannot be displayed to civilised people without prompting the adequate reactions, is it not?

Luís Henrique


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chinpira
The "Was on Sale" Song


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http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/gov_philosophy/socialist_origins_of_neonazism.htm


http://russp.org/nazis.html


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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by chinpira:
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/gov_philosophy/socialist_origins_of_neonazism.htm


Quotes from the site above:

quote:
If Al Gore were elected because of a split vote, the divisiveness of extreme leftist-collectivist Big Brotherism would kill America. This country is so polarized now that it will take a gifted leader or leaders to put it back together again.

quote:
Unfortunately, the fascist left now controls the once great and good Democratic Party.

quote:
Jesse Jackson would do better to stage his protests in the Sudan where people of color still sell other people of color to yet other people of color. Perhaps, he feels slavery is like incest - okay as long as you keep it in the family

quote:
Some years ago another hero of the globalist-Left, B.F.Skinner, in his book Beyond Freedom and Dignity, mounted a concerted attack on what he termed autonomous man.


quote:
http://russp.org/nazis.html

Quotes from the site above:

quote:
If you think the ``Theory of Evolution'' is ``proven,'' or even consistently corroborated by the empirical evidence, this book will ``blow your mind,'' guaranteed. Get it and read it, now. Any questions?

quote:
Petr Beckmann was a Professor of Electrical Engineering and a physicist who defected from Czechoslovakia in 1963 and took a position at the University of Colorado. In this amazing book he demonstrates beyond any doubt that most of what the general public ``knows'' about the safety and environmental impact of nuclear power are absurd myths perpetrated by environmental extremists and the mass media.

quote:
The official suspect was Lee Harvey Oswald, but of course he never had his day in court. Oswald joined the U.S. Marines at age seventeen and became a radar operator with at least a secret clearance at Atsugi Air Base in Japan, a known CIA operations center, where the U-2 reconnaissance aircraft was based. Although Oswald openly and regularly espoused Communism as a marine at the height of the cold war, the Marines did not seem to care. One day Oswald defected to the Soviet Union, boldly announcing his intention to divulge everything he knew to the Soviets. He stayed for a couple of years and got married, then he came back home with his wife. He was welcomed back hospitably by the U.S. government, which even paid his travel expenses back. He was never prosecuted for treason. After his arrest for the Kennedy assassination, he was questioned intensively for many hours without legal representation, despite his pleas for such. Supposedly, no notes or recordings of the interviews were kept. A couple of days after his arrest, Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby on national television.

Do they speak by themselves?

Luís Henrique


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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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All except the second-to-last one, which is true.

This proves, I suppose, that even nutballs can be right, once in a while. [Laughing out loud]

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle


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chinpira
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Luís, you didn't seem to address any of the issues raised in the articles themselves. None of your quotes are from the exact articles I posted, and the original issue was whether nazism and hitler were right wingers or not in the traditional sense. You are attacking the messenger and not the message. I don't agree with all of the guy's or website's viewpoints but I did find the article quite interesting.
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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by chinpira:
Luís, you didn't seem to address any of the issues raised in the articles themselves. None of your quotes are from the exact articles I posted, and the original issue was whether nazism and hitler were right wingers or not in the traditional sense. You are attacking the messenger and not the message. I don't agree with all of the guy's or website's viewpoints but I did find the article quite interesting.


OK, I'll take some time to read those pieces of utter nonsense and try to debunk them.

For your pleasure, while you wait:

From the site you quoted:

quote:
It was no accident that the Nazi flag was a red banner; it was taken from the flag of socialism.

From Adolf Hitler himself, in his "book" Mein Kampf:

quote:
We chose red for our posters after particular and careful deliberation, our intention being to irritate the Left, so as to arouse their attention and tempt them to come to our meetings – if only in order to break them up – so that in this way we got a chance of talking to the people.

Luís Henrique


Posts: 4498 | From: Brasília, Distrito Federal, Brazil | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Kilrati
The Red and the Green Stamps


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My two cents.
It’s hard to understand how a movement called national socialism ( formerly National Socialist German Workers’ Party, NSDAP), could ever be considered a part of the right, even more, a far-right ideology.

A solid argument can be made that Nazi, regardless of their view on any other subject, were left-wingers simply in respect for their view of government, that is that government should be big and powerful, see this assay for an explanation.
http://thenewamerican.com/tna/1998/vo14no23/vo14no23_holocaust.htm

from their platform :

"The German National Socialist Workers Party ... fights against all reactionary trends, against ecclesiastical, aristocratic, and capitalist privileges and every alien influence, but above all against the overpowering influence of the Jewish-commercial mentality in all domains of public life...."


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Guinastasia
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Kilrati-the size of government has nothing to do with it.

Again, you're quoting from a site that is heavily influenced by the JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY!!! Can we say tinfoil hats?

Edited to add [Thwack]


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Kiefer Wombat, Average Son
The Red and the Green Stamps


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This thread has strengthened my conviction that the "political spectrum" (right vs. left, conservative vs. liberal) is a thoroughly useless model. There is just too much complexity in political thought and ideology for it all to be crammed into a linear scale. The model might hold when applied to current politics in a single nation--especially one like the USA, which has only two major parties, roughly equal in influence, which naturally tend to take positions that are diametrically opposed (with respect to the currently accepted range of mainstream thought, that is). But try to use it to describe the political landscape of another country or another era, and it falls apart.

By the way, wasn't this thread supposed to be about Nelson Mandela?

Kiefer "moderate extremist" Wombat, Average Son

-----Edited to bring a certain errant "a" back into the Far Center fold-----


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chinpira
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Luís, the flag issue is only one part of the big picture. I always went along with conventional thinking, that neo nazi types were extreme right wingers. But the more one reads and studies the movement as praticed by hitler, the more one realizes that it is not that different from communism/socialism. I don't even think many in the neo nazi movement today are even aware of that, hence some tend to fancy themselves as republican conservatives and give republicans/conservatives a very bad name.
Posts: 5729 | From: HellPaso, TX | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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"Not that different from socialism"???!!!

Please, if you think that silly neo-nazis who align themselves with the American "right" give real republicans a bad name, then you could at least recognise that it's equally absurd to say that the Nazis were socialists. They were not.

I agree with Kiefer - in this instance it's particularly difficult to have a discussion on comparative political philosophies/ideologies while using such blunt terms as "left/right".

Thanks to Marmotte for clarifying the French understanding of "right"/"extreme right". I will revise my statement regarding Nazis being regarded merely as being on the right, and re-define them as "far" or "extreme" right if that helps. Bu this only really goes to show how inadequate the term is. Just look at the points we're trying to cover while using such a puny vocabulary!

We're asked whether the Nazis qualify as "right wing". Then whether they were "socialists" (which would seem to imply that they were "left wing"). At this point we still don't know whether we're talking about economic or social rightists, or whether we're talking about whether that relates to the nomenclature, or the ideology, or the policies of the Nazi government. At some points we seem to be talking about all three at the same time!

I do think that the argument has only really come up in this thread because some people have tried to associate Nazism with "the left" because they see themselves as being on the "right" and are tired of being associated themselves with racists and fascists. Nevertheless, this doesn't make the Nazis any more "socialist" in my eyes.

There is a debate to be had about the relative uses of state control in totalitarian governments with polar ideological bases, but using "left" and "right" in this context would be pretty useless. Plus it would be a massive hijack of this thread, which is apparently about Nelson Mandela!

Embra "right-ing on the wall"

--------------------
I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.


Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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