posted
My History professor, who is a devout Creationist, told me that there have been studies done (I'm assuming this is before moral regulations were put on psychological studies) where infants were raised without any language being used toward them. In all cases, the children died. That's about all he told us about the subject. He used it as proof that language is not something that could have evolved, and must have been something that was given to humans from the beginning of their existance. I have so many questions about this I have to form a list.
1)Has anybody ever heard of these studies? 2)Was there no communication at all with them (hand gestures, baby talk, etc.) or just no formal language?
Oh, well I guess it's just those two for now. Anybody that can shed some light on this matter would be most appreciated, because in my honest opinion, I think the guy is a fruit and would love to call him out on something.
Posts: 265 | From: Groveland, FL | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
My psychology teacher in high school told us a similar story...From what he said it was back in the 1920's-30's and they had studied orphan babies. I think these babies were completely ignored, no talking, holding or touching. The result was that several babies turned their faces to the walls and died. The others that lived were either mentally slow, or emotionally disturbed. Sorry I can't give more info...it was just a story that really fascinated me in high school, and it stuck with me.
mrs.hi-c
-------------------- This song has no title...just words and a tune.
quote:Language Acquisition in the Wild Quite obviously, feral, isolated and confined children who entered isolation before they could learn to talk never learned human language while in the wild, since they had nobody to teach them. They cannot spontaneously learn language.
Posts: 321 | From: Ohio (Land of Good Morning) | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
If there was no type of communication toward the children, that doesn't seem to give any kind of proof that language must have always existed. I mean, you can convey emotion and basic ideas through grunts and noises, which could have easily evolved into language.
Posts: 265 | From: Groveland, FL | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Even if isolated children die (not unlikely), that does not mean that language could not have evolved. After all, we all need oxygen to live, but it was a deadly poison to our distant single celled ancestors billions of years ago.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I find it hard to believe that children would just die. In psychology I've never been told of studies like that.
There was a case study done a girl they called Genie, however. Her parents kept her locked in an attic, never spoke to her, beat her, and never showed her any kind of love. All they did was feed her, and tie her to a potty chair for hours every day. When they found her I believe she was 13, she couldn't walk upright, she couldn't talk. When they tried to teach her language, she managed to pick up basic things to communicate, but she could never fully grasp it. She is still very much alive, living in a group home.
posted
Ah-ha! It was Psamtik I in the 7th century BC. Herodotus write:
quote:Now the Egyptians, before the reign of their king Psammetichus, believed themselves to be the most ancient of mankind. Since Psammetichus, however, made an attempt to discover who were actually the primitive race, they have been of opinion that while they surpass all other nations, the Phrygians surpass them in antiquity. This king, finding it impossible to make out by dint of inquiry what men were the most ancient, contrived the following method of discovery:- He took two children of the common sort, and gave them over to a herdsman to bring up at his folds, strictly charging him to let no one utter a word in their presence, but to keep them in a sequestered cottage, and from time to time introduce goats to their apartment, see that they got their fill of milk, and in all other respects look after them. His object herein was to know, after the indistinct babblings of infancy were over, what word they would first articulate. It happened as he had anticipated. The herdsman obeyed his orders for two years, and at the end of that time, on his one day opening the door of their room and going in, the children both ran up to him with outstretched arms, and distinctly said "Becos." When this first happened the herdsman took no notice; but afterwards when he observed, on coming often to see after them, that the word was constantly in their mouths, he informed his lord, and by his command brought the children into his presence. Psammetichus then himself heard them say the word, upon which he proceeded to make inquiry what people there was who called anything "becos," and hereupon he learnt that "becos" was the Phrygian name for bread. In consideration of this circumstance the Egyptians yielded their claims, and admitted the greater antiquity of the Phrygians.
The herdsmen were probably Phrygians.
-------------------- All posts foretold by Nostradamus.
Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
I once read somewhere (worse than a FOAF!) that if you don't learn how to read a map by the age of 18, you never can. The abstract concepts ("This is a map. See, here is your street...") are apparently brain-altering (just as speech is.)
I do know that there are people who cannot read maps unless the map is aligned properly: i.e., they have to face north if reading a map where north is "up." They can't work out how to "rotate" the map in their mind.
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Another link of feral children. I didn't find any reports of feral children, or other children who have died from lack of language.
-------------------- I am the snake. Bite, bite, bite. Posts: 247 | From: Winnipeg, Canada | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
The problem I have with the idea that language could not have evolved is that it is a communication between two people, or even two animals. So if there are not two creatures trying to communicate with each other (as in babies being ignored) there is no way for language to develop.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
posted
The point is, my teacher makes the assumption that humans never had a period where they were just grunting to each other and using hand gestures. He made the statement that mankind has always had language, that is, having specific sounds to represent specific objects, ideas, and actions.
Posts: 265 | From: Groveland, FL | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by mrrentalshoes: The point is, my teacher makes the assumption that humans never had a period where they were just grunting to each other and using hand gestures. He made the statement that mankind has always had language, that is, having specific sounds to represent specific objects, ideas, and actions.
Oh! That's different. To quote Sidney Wang, from "Murder by Death" (one of my favorite movies): "Interesting theory! Only one thing wrong with theory. Is stupid! Is most stupid thing I ever heard! Ha! Ha!"
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by mrrentalshoes: My History professor, who is a devout Creationist...
That's where the 404 light came on.
Posts: 2079 | From: California | Registered: Feb 2000
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I think this is the experiment the Professor is talking about;
quote:"Frederick II, King of Sicily and Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, wanted to know what language children, if deprived of any verbal influence, would speak as they grew. He took a group of infants from their mothers and ordered they be raised by caretakers who provided food and shelter but were forbidden to speak in their presence. He never found out. None of the children in this bizarre experiment ever spoke a word, all having withered and died from lack of connection to the world they were born into.
posted
What about deaf children? Those born deaf never hear a spoken word, yet they seem to get along just fine. And I don't think deaf mutes spontaneously die, either.
BB&S
-------------------- "How dare your reality hinder my ability to believe what I want!" Joe Bentley Posts: 697 | From: Backwoods of Arkansas | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Deaf children have a language though. They have sign language. These other children have no language, nothing at all that they could have learned from anyone.
-------------------- I am the snake. Bite, bite, bite. Posts: 247 | From: Winnipeg, Canada | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by mrs.hi-c: My psychology teacher in high school told us a similar story...From what he said it was back in the 1920's-30's and they had studied orphan babies. I think these babies were completely ignored, no talking, holding or touching. The result was that several babies turned their faces to the walls and died. The others that lived were either mentally slow, or emotionally disturbed. Sorry I can't give more info...it was just a story that really fascinated me in high school, and it stuck with me.
mrs.hi-c
But there's a complete lack of controls in that experiment. If only verbal communication had been taken away, then the outcome could be tied to the lack of a language. In that case, all human interaction had been taken away, which would cause the babies to be emotionally disturbed later on in life.
How sad that this was done at all, though.
LR
Posts: 780 | From: Dallas, TX | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by mrs.hi-c: My psychology teacher in high school told us a similar story...From what he said it was back in the 1920's-30's and they had studied orphan babies. I think these babies were completely ignored, no talking, holding or touching. The result was that several babies turned their faces to the walls and died. mrs.hi-c
I'd have to think that your professor is forgetting that there is a difference between language and commmunication. I don't believe the children above died because noone spoke to them. They died because noone touched them. It was the lack of tactile stimulation that caused the children to shut down and die.
Touch and gestures were around long before the spoken word, and can develop into a rich form of language. Most of the animal kingdom relies on this form of communication, and can convey some pretty sophisticated information with it.
I imagine humankind came up with spoken language when they needed to figure out some way to lie. Posts: 1651 | From: Columbus, Ohio | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I JUST completed a course on language and communication acquisition in disabled children.
Language and communication can exist without verbal speech. ASL is a good example, as are the rudimentary gestures that very young children use before they learn to speak words. In order to be communication, more than one person has to be able to use it to convey a message. The exact opposite is also true. Speech can exist without it being language or communication. Think meaningless grunts, or baby babble that has no meaning associated with it other than to create sound.
posted
What about Helen Keller and others like her? granted she didn't become blind and deaf until almost 2, but from then until 7 she really didn't have a 'language' (7 being when anne sullivan came to teach her sign language) I'm sure she had some communication, but she certainly had no language. And she did not languish or die, though she was very frustrated at times at not being able to communicate fully sometimes.
-------------------- "Long ago, when we all lived in the forest..." Who are you? Who? Who? Posts: 1587 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
The children were dying from a lack of communication. Communication is not always language. These children only had their basic physical needs met, but humans need their social needs met, also. These children died of depression, if I recall the research correctly. They gave up living because they had no human interaction.
posted
Very strange... this probably sounds really creepy, but I actually had wondered for quite some time how a human being would live without any human upbringing whatsoever... provided with food and an adequate living area, of course. What would they do purely on instinct? How much would they be able to learn simply from observation and reasoning? If this is any indication, they wouldn't live long at all without any interaction, so the point is moot... However it appears that I am -not- the only one to wonder about this! So maybe I'm -not- crazy! Yay!
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quote:Originally posted by kjbrasda: What about Helen Keller and others like her? granted she didn't become blind and deaf until almost 2, but from then until 7 she really didn't have a 'language' (7 being when anne sullivan came to teach her sign language) I'm sure she had some communication, but she certainly had no language. And she did not languish or die, though she was very frustrated at times at not being able to communicate fully sometimes.
Wait, they (they being my pansy of a 9th grade english teacher) led me to believe that Helen Keller was born that way... God damn that stupid movie.
-------------------- Hey, check out my dads website -- www.eastcountyhwy.com He grooms dogs too. Posts: 1593 | From: Bedias, TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by vampyrviolia: Wait, they (they being my pansy of a 9th grade english teacher) led me to believe that Helen Keller was born that way... God damn that stupid movie.
Did they tell you she went on to Radcliffe and graduated? That she became a Socialist and then a Wobbly? That she supported Eugene V Deb's (CPUSA) run for President (whom Wilson had thrown in prison for being a Communist)? That the Nazis burned her books because she was a Socialist? That she opposed Wilson's invasion of Russia in 1918?
quote:In the East a new star is risen! With pain and anguish the old order has given birth to the new, and behold in the East a man-child is born! Onward, comrades, all together! Onward to the campfires of Russia! Onward to the coming dawn! -- Helen Keller
-------------------- All posts foretold by Nostradamus.
Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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Frenchy
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote: I do know that there are people who cannot read maps unless the map is aligned properly: i.e., they have to face north if reading a map where north is "up." They can't work out how to "rotate" the map in their mind. (silas)
I was totally like that, and still am a bit of an idiot with a map .. I have to see where I am, then turn (not necessarily north, but where the street I see on the map goes for eg). And THEN I can see where I'm supposed to go. Basically, what I find the hardest, is have the street I need to go to behind me. It's much easier if I turn around, and face that street. Then I know I have to turn left for eg (not imagining I'm facing the other way, turning left). I think it's just a simple 'flat' interpretation to a 3D interpretation of info (which apparently, men are better at understandig). It's also I believe a question of practice. The more I travel, the better I'm at reading maps.
quote: I'd have to think that your professor is forgetting that there is a difference between language and commmunication. I don't believe the children above died because noone spoke to them. They died because noone touched them. It was the lack of tactile stimulation that caused the children to shut down and die. (headless horse chestnut)
I agree. I have also been taught that theory, and emphasised the fact that children (esp. babies) required a lot of caresses and cuddles. Not because they're small and cute, and you naturally want to do it anyway but because they NEED it to survive and make happy kids and adults. I know it's a problem where the mum has post-natal depression for eg. The nurses have to make sure they cuddle the babies instead of the mum so that the kid is not lacking in that area. Mums who don't cuddle their babies have difficulties later on in life to bond with them or make them accept their authority (that's what I learnt in a child psychology course). I find that fascinating... And I would never deprive a kid of cuddles or any other interraction. It's SO cruel to even think about it.
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Hampshire Vampire
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
Funny this thread should come up.My philosophy teacher told us about an experiment done in europe(Russia if I remember correctly) where orphans of similar health were taken into a nursery.One half of the children were raised in a pleasant environment where the doctors and nurses would play with them and talk to them often.The other half was raised with the bare physical necessities,but the nurse were told never to speak to them or communicate in any other way.So they were always cold and emotionless in front of these children.
Of course those children ended up being frail and always sick.
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Not only were the children in the orphanage not spoken to and received no physical contact, they were in cribs in a room with little sensory stimulation from any source, not just from other humans. If the child were in a stimulating environment -- even ferrel -- the child would fare far better mentally and emotionally.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer: Oh! That's different. To quote Sidney Wang, from "Murder by Death" (one of my favorite movies): "Interesting theory! Only one thing wrong with theory. Is stupid! Is most stupid thing I ever heard! Ha! Ha!"
I knew there was a reason I liked you, Silas.
-Tabby the princess with claws
-------------------- If you don't appreciate the irony, the irony appreciates.
"Sappiness and medieval violence: it's a wonderful combination. Like chocolate and peanut butter for the mind." -me on my fantasy novel-in-progress Posts: 2281 | From: Arizona | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I remember reading a book by Helen Keller...Hmm...Ah yes! "The Story of My Life" by Helen Keller. In it she said that she communicated: "Soon I felt the need of some communication with others and begane to make crude signs. A shake of the head mean 'No' and a nod, 'Yes,' a pull meant 'Come' and a push 'Go.' ...If I wanted my mother to make ice-cream for dinner I made the sign for working the freezer and shivered, indicating cold."
Of course, she says later, "Meanwhile, the desire to express myself grew. The few signs I used became less and less adequate, and my failures to make myself understood were invariably followed by outbursts of passion."
So while, yes, she could communicate, it wasn't very good communication for her growing years and understanding. That, and she had some aspects of speaking before she became sick. She remembered what water was from when she was younger.
Okay, you can tell I am in training to become an English teacher. I'll leave you to your regularly scheduled messages now.
-------------------- Hey look! A shiny new post! Posts: 125 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Jul 2004
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I JUST completed a course on language and communication acquisition in disabled children. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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.. I have to see where I am, then turn (not necessarily north, but where the street I see on the map goes for eg). And THEN I can see where I'm supposed to go. Basically, what I find the hardest, is have the street I need to go to behind me. It's much easier if I turn around, and face that street. Then I know I have to turn left for eg (not imagining I'm facing the other way, turning left). I think it's just a simple 'flat' interpretation to a 3D interpretation of info (which apparently, men are better at understandig). It's also I believe a question of practice. The more I travel, the better I'm at reading maps. ![[lol]](graemlins/lol.gif)
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