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Author Topic: Kirk Cameron's circular logic
LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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Found this on the site.

quote:
1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?

Does she want an abortion? If so...yes. If not...no.

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. Of their four children, the first is blind, the second has died, the third is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she’s pregnant again. Given this extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?

The father is sick with SNIFFLES? Why even bother throwing that into the equation. Anyway, same answer as above.

3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl and she’s now pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

Probably, if I were her parents

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She’s not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby, and he’s upset. Would you recommend abortion?

No. Once again, it's her call.

In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century.

Slight correction. I prevented him from being born.

In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven.

In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer.

If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have declared the murder of Jesus Christ!

* bold is mine

--------------------
"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Point 2 should, I think, read 'syphilis', not 'sniffles.'

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by 80 Proof MapleLeaf:
Found this on the site.

[QUOTE]1. A preacher and his wife are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she’s pregnant with the 15th. They’re living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending she get an abortion?
(Snip)
In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists in the 19th century.
(Snip)
[

Without trying to sound extremely cold-hearted...I can live with that.

This whole type of rationale kinda bugs me because you could easily flip it around and say something like:

If you knew a married, midwestern couple in the 60's who didn't necessarily have the means to raise a child without enduring financial struggles, and had much tension in their marriage, and the wife became pregnant, would you stop them from getting an abortion?

If so, then you just delivered Jeffery Dahmer into the world. You would have contributed to killing, mutilating, and cannibalizing all those innocent people.

Obviously, a rational person wouldn't see the situation that way. But still evangelicals make those ridiculous arguments. [Roll Eyes]

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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golem
The Red and the Green Stamps


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An interesting sidenote about aborting history's worst. Apparently Saddam Hussein's mother considered getting an abortion, due to the stigma of having a baby out of wedlock, and due to crushing poverty. The Jews of Tikrit convinced her to bring Saddam to term, and then supported her. Of course we all know how Saddam repayed the Jews of Tikrit. [Frown]
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by golem:
An interesting sidenote about aborting history's worst. Apparently Saddam Hussein's mother considered getting an abortion, due to the stigma of having a baby out of wedlock, and due to crushing poverty. The Jews of Tikrit convinced her to bring Saddam to term, and then supported her. Of course we all know how Saddam repayed the Jews of Tikrit. [Frown]

Do you have a cite for that? I mean, I'm really willing it to be true here, but it sounds really like glurge to be honest. Plus, that whole "The Jews of Tikrit convinced her to bring Saddam to term" strikes a wrong note. What did they do, fill out a petition?

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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STF
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Magdalene:
I'm trying to figure out which is worse....when former child stars turn to a life of crime, or when they turn to a life of uber-religion.

There are some who just go middle-of-the-road in their adult lives, aren't there?

Magdalene

Crime is the answer.

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RoyalNoneSuch
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by MisterGrey:

...Kirk Cameron/Australian Guy: Have you ever told a lie?

Randomly Selected Sap: Well, sure--

KC/AG: Now, Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you've committed adultery. Have you ever looked at a woman with lust in your heart?

RSS: Yeah-

KC/AG: Ok, now, have you ever taken something that didn't belong to you? This can mean anything. If you've ever taken anything home from work, paperclips, the company buys those paperclips, they don't belong to you. Have you ever taken anything that wasn't yours?

RSS: Well, once--

KC/AG: OK, now, BY YOUR OWN ADMITION, your are a lying, adulterous thief. And do you know what God says about liars, adulterers, and thieves? None of them will ever inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. That means you will go to Hell...

(cue ad nauseum evangalizing for converting to Evangelicalism)

I don't really have a problem with this. It pretty much sums up a basic part of my belief system.

Pretty much, it is getting people to realize that if they have ever done anything wrong, no matter how minor, they have sinned. A sinner cannot stand before God, because God is perfect. God loves us anyway, so He sent His Son to pay for our sins. His Son, Jesus, died on the cross for us, and if we accept that, we are cleansed and can then stand before God during the judgement.

Of course, it is also fun to say how stupid that all is, and that anyone who believes such a thing and has had the nerve to have acted in a silly 80's sitcom must be a moron.
[dunce]

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by RoyalNoneSuch:
Of course, it is also fun to say how stupid that all is, and that anyone who believes such a thing and has had the nerve to have acted in a silly 80's sitcom must be a moron.
[dunce]

No, that's not it. It's the fact that his logic is so bad, and his method of witnessing so annoying, that makes me think he's a moron. But I would think that of someone whose entire persuasive argument consists of, "I'm right because I am. Oh, and God told me."

As has been shown already, his arguments run in circles and are easily refuted. His belief system may coincide with yours, RoyalNoneSuch. Doesn't change the fact he's a lousy theologian.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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The whole "everyone sins, so noone really deserves to go to heaven, but God will forgive you if you ask" belief does not make sense, IMO. After all, if no one can avoid sinning, which seems to be the case, then how can anyone be justly punished for doing something they cannot under any circumstances avoid doing? Divine punishment for unavoidable sin makes as much sense as divine punishment for breathing.

Furthermore, what right does god have to judge and forgive a sinner? If god were a human who had managed to overcome the temptation to sin, he would have the "moral high ground" to judge and forgive sinners. However, he is perfect, meaning that he never even felt the temptation to sin. Therefore, him judging us is like a creature that does not need to eat judging a hungry man for stealing a loaf of bread. It is true that one does not need to be a thief, for example, to judge a thief, but I still think that someone who has never even felt hunger cannot judge whether or not a hungry man is right in stealing food. Likewise, what right does someone who never even experienced the urge to sin have to judge sinners?

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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The problem with the idea that sinners cannot stand before God because he is perfect, is that if he were perfect, he would not have created sinners. A flawed creation requires a fallible creator.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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Finite Fourier Alchemy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
This sounds like a rude joke...but, in space, when stars explode, they can cause compression of nearby clouds of dust, which can lead to the formation of more stars. Explosions *can* cause order!

And as the saying goes, in space, no one can hear your screed.

-A

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Thinking about New England / missing old Japan

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Crono
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Troodon:
The whole "everyone sins, so noone really deserves to go to heaven, but God will forgive you if you ask" belief does not make sense, IMO. After all, if no one can avoid sinning, which seems to be the case, then how can anyone be justly punished for doing something they cannot under any circumstances avoid doing? Divine punishment for unavoidable sin makes as much sense as divine punishment for breathing.

There are actually various different Christian theologies about this, and not all of them believe that sin is unavoidable. Arminianism, for example, does not hold that sin is inevitable. Forgiveness is necessary because it is fully within our power not to sin, but we do it anyway.

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Disclaimer: I might know something about everything, but I don't know much about anything.

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golem
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara:
quote:
Originally posted by golem:
An interesting sidenote about aborting history's worst. Apparently Saddam Hussein's mother considered getting an abortion, due to the stigma of having a baby out of wedlock, and due to crushing poverty. The Jews of Tikrit convinced her to bring Saddam to term, and then supported her. Of course we all know how Saddam repayed the Jews of Tikrit. [Frown]

Do you have a cite for that? I mean, I'm really willing it to be true here, but it sounds really like glurge to be honest. Plus, that whole "The Jews of Tikrit convinced her to bring Saddam to term" strikes a wrong note. What did they do, fill out a petition?
Unfortunately I don't have a reference on hand. It wasn't every Jew in Tikrit, but there were several who convinced her to carry the baby to term, and then supported her financially. Sorry it sounds like glurge, but when I heard the story, there were references to the year, and to the Jewish families in question.
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RoyalNoneSuch
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Norwegian Woodchuck:
The problem with the idea that sinners cannot stand before God because he is perfect, is that if he were perfect, he would not have created sinners. A flawed creation requires a fallible creator.

Nonny

Or, I suppose, you could take the view that; God is in fact infallible and did not create sinners. He created beings with free will to chose to either follow Him or not. Maybe we are given the choice so as not to be automatons. Maybe it is possible, theoritically, to live a perfect life and get to heaven on our own merits. If we fall short, a sacrifice is required to make up for it. We can either pay it ourselves, meaning eternal separation from God, or accept the gift of Christ's having died for our sins and cleansing us.

Some people counter with something like, "well, if God is omnipotent then He knew I was going to sin, so it is His fault, not mine." The thing is knowing and causing are two different things.

I hope that I am not alienating people on this board, because I rather like posting here, and really respect the opinions of the people who frequent this site. I am glad this discussion is taking place in the, "religion," forum. I am going to cool it now, because when I get started it is hard to stop. I do not mean to advertise, but if you want to read further about my views, my personal site is http://www.dougwinans.com.

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Norwegian Woodchuck:
The problem with the idea that sinners cannot stand before God because he is perfect, is that if he were perfect, he would not have created sinners. A flawed creation requires a fallible creator.

Nonny

However we chose to violate this. God gave us free will. We chose to violate that state of "perfect". God is still "perfect" but we chose not to be that way when we sinned. Thats the problem of free will....

oh no... *head explodes*

did "if you believe that sort of thing anyways" dy

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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KennRice
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Milhouse Van Houten:
quote:
Originally posted by blucanary:
Why does it sa WDJD on the logo?

I believe it's their own take on the "WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) movement. I didn't scour the entire site, nor order the materials, but I believe that the WDJD stands for "What DID Jesus Do"; their way of putting the focus on the belief that Jesus died for man's sins.

I personally preferred the alternate take on WWJD that was going around about two years ago as the Iraq war was beginning. There were stickers and t-shirts asking "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" [Big Grin]

I like the following interpretations:

WWJD = We Want Jack Daniels

WDJD = We Desire Jack Daniels

WDJD = We Drink Jack Daniels

Ken

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peculiar hailstone
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by golem:
An interesting sidenote about aborting history's worst. Apparently Saddam Hussein's mother considered getting an abortion, due to the stigma of having a baby out of wedlock, and due to crushing poverty. The Jews of Tikrit convinced her to bring Saddam to term, and then supported her. Of course we all know how Saddam repayed the Jews of Tikrit. [Frown]

Hmmm, someone should tell that one to that one evangelical that we all know. You know, the one who lives in the big white house...

--------------------
my wife made me join a bridge club. I jump off next Tuesday...

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MisterGrey
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by peculiar hailstone:
quote:
Originally posted by golem:
An interesting sidenote about aborting history's worst. Apparently Saddam Hussein's mother considered getting an abortion, due to the stigma of having a baby out of wedlock, and due to crushing poverty. The Jews of Tikrit convinced her to bring Saddam to term, and then supported her. Of course we all know how Saddam repayed the Jews of Tikrit. [Frown]

Hmmm, someone should tell that one to that one evangelical that we all know. You know, the one who lives in the big white house...
Please don't. He might spend the entire defense budget funding a time machine.
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KingDavid8
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Norwegian Woodchuck:
The problem with the idea that sinners cannot stand before God because he is perfect, is that if he were perfect, he would not have created sinners. A flawed creation requires a fallible creator.

Nonny

However we chose to violate this. God gave us free will. We chose to violate that state of "perfect". God is still "perfect" but we chose not to be that way when we sinned. Thats the problem of free will....

As far as I'm concerned, not having free will would make life not worth living.

David

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www.MySpace.com/KDavid8

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chillas
Coventry Mall Carol


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quote:
Originally posted by KingDavid8:
As far as I'm concerned, not having free will would make life not worth living.

If someone is standing behind you with a gun pointed at your head and saying, "go ahead, you can do whatever you want," but you know they're going to shoot you if you don't do what they want you to do, it's not really free will.

--------------------
Come on, come on - spin a little tighter
Come on, come on - and the world's a little brighter


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hoitoider
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by chillas:
quote:
Originally posted by KingDavid8:
As far as I'm concerned, not having free will would make life not worth living.

If someone is standing behind you with a gun pointed at your head and saying, "go ahead, you can do whatever you want," but you know they're going to shoot you if you don't do what they want you to do, it's not really free will.
People have gotten out of those situations w/out being shot - they talk the person out of it or know kung fu or whatever. Free will isn't necessarily easy or risk free.

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No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie

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chillas
Coventry Mall Carol


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I can use Kung Fu on god?

--------------------
Come on, come on - spin a little tighter
Come on, come on - and the world's a little brighter


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Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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Or debate him and win? Either option would make him pretty unfit to be a supreme deity, at least in my opinion.

- Il-Mari

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When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both.

- Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Il-Mari:
Or debate him and win? Either option would make him pretty unfit to be a supreme deity, at least in my opinion.

- Il-Mari

You can debate him, but if he is omnipotent, you will loose.

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by MisterGrey:
quote:
Originally posted by peculiar hailstone:
quote:
Originally posted by golem:
An interesting sidenote about aborting history's worst. Apparently Saddam Hussein's mother considered getting an abortion, due to the stigma of having a baby out of wedlock, and due to crushing poverty. The Jews of Tikrit convinced her to bring Saddam to term, and then supported her. Of course we all know how Saddam repayed the Jews of Tikrit. [Frown]

Hmmm, someone should tell that one to that one evangelical that we all know. You know, the one who lives in the big white house...
Please don't. He might spend the entire defense budget funding a time machine.
[bad George Bush immatation] Hey, A time machiene, that sounds like a terriffic idea, I could go back in time to remove that stupid term limit and be prez forever *heh heh heh* [/bad George Bush imitation]

did "just kidding on that" dy

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by KingDavid8:
As far as I'm concerned, not having free will would make life not worth living.

How would you know? Perhaps you were pre-destined, from the moment the universe was made, to hold that belief...

Slightly more seriously, there is the following law of human nature: "A sufficiently gilded cage is indistinguishable from freedom."

Silas

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Elwood
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Since God is postulated to have multiple infinitely perfect attributes, we are going to run into some obvious logical problems trying to describe him. One could say that if God is infinitely good and He created free will, free will must be perfectly good, regardless of the result. Another may focus on God's infinite power and note that whatever happens must have been ordained by God, being perfect because He ordained it, whether or not that perfection offends our sensabilities. Another may focus on perfect justice, claiming that God has a right to judge his own creation or soveignty, claiming God has a right to do whatever he wants with His own creation. Others may come up with any combination these attributes to explain perfection but the introduction of other attributes into the discussion will always result in a paradox.

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"If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006.

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Sylvanz
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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It really comes down to the fact that if there is something illogical about "God" the explanation is never that perhaps we're wrong and God isn't the things the Bible, hierarchy, church, etc. says, or that God perhaps doesn't exist, but we puny humans just aren't "equipped" to understand God. This strikes me as a rationalization/excuse for the problems with theology and theism. This was one of my main problems with Christianity as I moved away from it: the notion that anything illogical can be waved away with the vague notion that if it doesn't make sense it isn't the fault of the idea/belief but the fault of the questioners. They are, after all, operating with only "human" (read inferior) knowledge not "Godly knowledge." This, IMHO, gives this sort of belief system a free pass from logic and non-believers simply cannot ever successfully participate in this argument.

P&LL, Syl

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire

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Elwood
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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But a paradox isn't necessarily illogical, only counterintuitive. No system of belief is without problems. The various explanations and attempted resolutions of those problems are usually what cause factions to develop within religion as time goes on.

I certainly do not intend to gloss over problems, only to explain the solutions as best as I can. I am a firm believer in both God and logic, but I also believe that the latter has limitations when dealing with metaphysics, which by definition require a certain amount of a priori postulation. I will fully admit that I am probably a better apologist of my views regarding God among those who accept His existance than I am among those who do not. Once I get back to a certain point, I will have to fall back on certain assumptions that are unprovable but fundamental to my belief, as will the atheist, agnostic, or fideist.

--------------------
"If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Elwood:
But a paradox isn't necessarily illogical, only counterintuitive. . . .

Technically speaking, a paradox is not only illogical, but impossible. Paradoxes are only apparent; they cannot exist in formal logic...or the real world.

(The resolution to most paradoxes is simply to take a step back into the "real world" and examine it from a meta-perspective. Who *said* that the Barber must shave everyone who does not shave himself? Whoever gave that command is a ninny, and the order is to be ignored!)

In theology, it is harder to "step back," as there is argued to be no higher perspective than that of God. Still, if (?) we demand of God that he not contradict himself, such apparent paradoxes do require resolution.

The classical Christian resolution is that "we brought it all on ourselves" when Adam sinned. Many of us don't *like* that answer, but it is a valid answer.

Silas

Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elwood
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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I guess it depends on the definition of a Paradox: "A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true" is one entry in the dictionary but "An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises" is another. The first definition describes a scenario in which the contradiction is only apparent due, perhaps to a limited frame of reference while the latter is a product of too many steps in a seemingly logical progression of arguments.

Infinity and absolute perfection are difficult to deal with becuase we simply do not encounter them in the material world. I've heard one pastor claim that God is essentially self-validating in His truthfulness--the reason God cannot lie is that whatever He chooses to say becomes to be instantly. I, OTOH tend to draw from a hint of Taoism and argue that God is actually bound his own perfection, even if to the point of apparent frustration on His own part. Both are very difficult positions to maintain without first accpeting that God does in fact existance outside of the realm of humankind's imagination.

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"If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006.

Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Elwood:
I guess it depends on the definition of a Paradox: "A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true" is one entry in the dictionary but "An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises" is another. The first definition describes a scenario in which the contradiction is only apparent due, perhaps to a limited frame of reference while the latter is a product of too many steps in a seemingly logical progression of arguments.



Fair enough... For instance, human behavior is often "paradoxical" in that we (sigh) sometimes act in such a way as to thwart our own greatest desires. ("We always hurt the ones we love.")

This isn't a "real" paradox, a logical paradox such as "X is True if X is False."

quote:

Infinity and absolute perfection are difficult to deal with becuase we simply do not encounter them in the material world. I've heard one pastor claim that God is essentially self-validating in His truthfulness--the reason God cannot lie is that whatever He chooses to say becomes to be instantly. I, OTOH tend to draw from a hint of Taoism and argue that God is actually bound his own perfection, even if to the point of apparent frustration on His own part. Both are very difficult positions to maintain without first accpeting that God does in fact existance outside of the realm of humankind's imagination.

"Absolute perfection" leads to the wonderful medieval "proof of God" in which God must lack any faults or failings...such as "non-existence." Obviously, there's something wrong with this, but it is elegant and even kind of pretty.

Obviously, we mere humans have no ability to work with true "infinity." In a way, infinity is a limitation, not an expression. Infinity is really only workable as a negative.

("Are we there yet?" "No."
"Are we there yet?" "No."
"Are we there yet?" "No.")

(This is why the infinitesimal calculus is so nifty; it doesn't work with infinity per se, but only with a mathematical proof that works on an almost "legalistic" principal. If you pick a number, I can pick another number that's closer to the mathematical limit than your number was. You pick 1.001, I pick 1.0001. You pick 1.00001, I pick 1.000001. I can keep it up as long as you can, and thus the limit is "proven" by a kind of exhaustive extension.)

For human purposes, there is always a finite number -- and it's usually not very large -- that is functionally indistinguishable from infinity. As I said in another thread, if I give you 10^70 dollars, it is, for any purpose at all, the same as giving you an infinite amount of money.

(Can you tell I love math and logic?)

Silas

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Elwood
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Yes, though I've wondered somewhat from my roots, I remain the son a math prof who can't help but appreciate the numbers. The problem with explaining God is that there is no objective measure of perfection as we understand it that can be applied. One person believes that a perfect God would create a world without suffering while another believes that a perfect God believes that a perfect God would offer perfect proof of himself while another believes that only by concealing portions of his identity can God truly offer choice, which is taken as further evidenced of God's pefection.

Unlike in theoretical math, where one can always add one more to a set, there is simply no way to move from "perfect" to "more perfect" or from "infinity" to "greater infinity" in theology without running into serious logical roadblocks. I suppose one could ascribe his own values to various attributes and measure God by that standard, but that says nothing about how perfect God is or isn't since, as the only perfect being, He would also be the only one who would know what "objective" perfection is--making the definition of perfection none other than Himself!

El "pair a ducks" wood

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"If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006.

Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
me, no really
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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To my mind this thread shows up a lot of the locical fallacies that apply to religions in general. People say things like "I think god should be like this" or "I don't believe in god because god is supposed to be like X and I can't beleive that"

To me, this is mostly humans, with human reasoning, trying to work out if there is a god, and if so what form that god takes. Silly. If there is a god, then that god would by nature be above our level of reasoning ability. To me it makes sense to look at ti the other way around. If there is a god, it seems reasonable that that god would have done something to communicate his/her existance to humanity, either by some form of direct communication ("the audible voice of god", writing in the sky etc) or indirectly (we see a big hill over there and assume there must be a god in charge of the hill etc).

Now, through history, lots of people have actually claimed to be god in human form. That's not an unusual claim at all. The Roman emperors did. Unitl recently the Japanese emperor was considered divine. The Hindu religion would say that every human is a god/an aspect of god. That would put about 5 million gods on the planet at present. A Jewish carpenter by the name of Yeshua (Jesus in Greek) made the claim to be god. To my mind, the task is not necessarily to begin by trying to imagine what god might be like. The task is firstly to examine the claims of divinity that people have made to see if any of them may be true. If so, then listen to what that person says about god, and his/her nature. If it comes from someone who is truly divine, then it is something we must seriously listen to, whether we like what we hear of not.

For me, when I look at the life, death and resurrection of that Jewish carpenter, I find a lot of evidence that the Bible is a historical record of real events. I therefore must take seriously what he says about the nature of God, and morality.

me

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Posts: 831 | From: Brisbane, Australia | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by me, no really:

For me, when I look at the life, death and resurrection of that Jewish carpenter, I find a lot of evidence that the Bible is a historical record of real events. I therefore must take seriously what he says about the nature of God, and morality.

me

I don't get it. What exactly gives Jesus' claims more weight in your eyes again? You admit yourself that there are tons of people who pretend to be speaking for God, to be God, to be a divine emissary, etc.... Just because the existence of this particular man was recorded gives it more theological and moral weight than others? But then again, the lives and deaths of many other "prophets" of all kinds have been recorded, why aren't they on par with Jesus to you?

And how is the story of the resurrection a "record of real events"? Was it recorded as true in works other than those written by those who pretended to have seen Jesus alive after his death? What gives these testimony more weight than those of everybody who, say, pretend to have seen Elvis alive after his death?

I don't mean this to sound too agressive... Your post starts fairly reasonnably, but the last paragraph really has me scratching my head. I don't understand the reasons why you give the Bible more credibility than, say, the Quran, as an example.

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Posts: 4372 | From: Quebec | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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