snopes.com Post new topic  Post a reply
search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello snopes.com » Archived Forums » Religion Archive » Kirk Cameron's circular logic (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 7 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7   
Author Topic: Kirk Cameron's circular logic
Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


Icon 221 posted      Profile for Methuselah     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Hey folks,

I recently stumbled onto Way of the Master which is Kirk Cameron's internet evangelism site (he's a preacher now). It's quite entertaining (well, I should say it's entertaining for atheists).

One thing that really struck me as funny, though, is the "100 Questions and Objections" from the "Way of the Master Evidence Bible". It's a list of 'proof' that the bible is true. I've never seen such extensive use of circular logic before.

Example:
Objection: "Adam was a mythical figure who never really lived"

Answer: (truncated)Jesus was descended from Adam, and it is impossible to be descended from a myth.


Well, that's proof positive for me! Good thing we cleared all of that up. [Roll Eyes]

Example 2:
Objection: "Doesn't the Big Bang theory disprove the Genesis account of creation?"

Answer: (truncated)Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? Big bangs cause chaos. Try this interesting experiment: Empty your garage of every piece of metal, wood, paint, rubber and plastic. Make sure there is nothing there. Nothing. Then wait for ten years and see if a Mercedes evolves. Try it. If it doesnít appear, leave it for 20 years. If that doesnít work, try it for 100 years.


Again, wow! I didn't realize how silly I was being. Obviously god created the earth, because Mercedes didn't evolve outta nowhere. The ol' heavenly father created them! (Although, it musta been on the eigth day, cause those first seven days were all accounted for) [Razz]

It's a fun site for those with time to waste.

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MisterGrey
Little Sales Drummer Boy


Icon 1 posted      Profile for MisterGrey     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
This dumbass pretty much has his own television station down here; a local number is constantly plastered across the bottom of the screen, so I'm assuming that he's located at least in the tri-county area. Most of his shows are him and this Australian guy (who looks like a British hippe out of the 60s) harassing people at shopping malls:

Kirk Cameron/Australian Guy: Have you ever told a lie?

Randomly Selected Sap: Well, sure--

KC/AG: Now, Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you've committed adultery. Have you ever looked at a woman with lust in your heart?

RSS: Yeah-

KC/AG: Ok, now, have you ever taken something that didn't belong to you? This can mean anything. If you've ever taken anything home from work, paperclips, the company buys those paperclips, they don't belong to you. Have you ever taken anything that wasn't yours?

RSS: Well, once--

KC/AG: OK, now, BY YOUR OWN ADMITION, your are a lying, adulterous thief. And do you know what God says about liars, adulterers, and thieves? None of them will ever inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. That means you will go to Hell...

(cue ad nauseum evangalizing for converting to Evangelicalism)

Posts: 2711 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Grumpy
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 208 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Does a terrorist bomb create harmony?
I've heard the "explosions don't create order" trope before. It's already a false analogy, and here we see it pushed one step further. A false analogy of a false analogy -- bravo, Mr. Cameron!
IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
snopes
Return! Return! Return!


Icon 607 posted      Profile for snopes   Author's Homepage   E-mail snopes       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
I've never seen such extensive use of circular logic before.
Ah, but they've already got that objection covered:

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/Christianscantusecircularreasoning.shtml

quote:
"Christians can't use 'circular reasoning' by trying to prove the Bible by quoting from the Bible!"

The "circular reasoning" argument is absurd. That's like saying you can't prove that the President lives in the White House by looking into the White House. It is looking into the White House that will provide the necessary proof. The fulfilled prophecies, the amazing consistency, and the many scientific statements of the Bible prove it to be the Word of God. They provide evidence that it is supernatural in origin.

Of course, that's really like saying you can definitively prove the President lives in the White House by looking in the White House -- if you see a person living there, it must be the President, because everyone knows the President lives in the White House.

- snopes

Posts: 36029 | From: Admin | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


Icon 504 posted      Profile for Silas Sparkhammer   Author's Homepage   E-mail Silas Sparkhammer   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Actually, explosions do create order, although of a rather basic sort. Take a jungle, full of creepers and vines and ants and aardvarks and daffodils and things. Set off a large explosion. Poof! You now have a wonderful clear area, floored by a shallow crater shaped like a section of a perfect sphere. What could be more orderly?

This sounds like a rude joke...but, in space, when stars explode, they can cause compression of nearby clouds of dust, which can lead to the formation of more stars. Explosions *can* cause order!

Silas

Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Brian O'blivion
Deck the Malls


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Brian O'blivion     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
More answers:

Objection: "Adam was a mythical figure who never really lived"

Answer: If Adam and Eve were not real, then we ought to doubt whether their children were real too, and their children...and then we ought to doubt the first 11 chapters of Genesis, and so on.


Done and done.

Posts: 307 | From: California | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elkhound         Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
What sort of training did he get before setting himself up as an evangelist? It sounds as though he didn't even go to a halfway decent Bible College, let alone a respectable seminary.

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


Icon 605 posted      Profile for Methuselah     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
What sort of training did he get before setting himself up as an evangelist? It sounds as though he didn't even go to a halfway decent Bible College, let alone a respectable seminary.

Fortunately for Mr. Cameron (and unfortunately for the general population), no training is required to be an evangelist...heck, you don't even need the ability to use reason or logic. All he needed was some cash, and a product to sell.

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


Icon 208 posted      Profile for Methuselah     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brian O'blivion:
More answers:

Objection: "Adam was a mythical figure who never really lived"

Answer: If Adam and Eve were not real, then we ought to doubt whether their children were real too, and their children...and then we ought to doubt the first 11 chapters of Genesis, and so on.


Done and done.

[lol] The perfect response [lol]

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
finger stutters
Deck the Malls


Icon 1 posted      Profile for finger stutters     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
"Man is the master of his own destiny!"
"If man is in total control of his future, then he should at least be in control of his own body. Instead, he is subject to involuntary yawning, sneezing, breathing, swallowing, sleeping, salivating, dreaming, blinking, and thinking. He canít even control hair and nail growth. He automatically does these things, irrespective of his will."

"God made me like this. Sin is His fault!"
"If this wonít work in a civil court, it certainly wonít work on Judgment Day. Even with an expert defense lawyer, it would take a pretty inept judge to fall for the old "God made me do it" defense. We are responsible moral agents. The "buck" stopped at Adam. He tried to blame both God and Eve for his sin; Eve blamed the serpent. It is human nature to try, but it doesnít work with God."

These two don't make sense. One says that God controls people and the other one says that He doesn't. I wish these people would get their story straight before telling people their beliefs.

--------------------
YHBT. YHL. HAND.
My youtube channel

Posts: 258 | From: Colorado | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
ParaDiddle
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for ParaDiddle   E-mail ParaDiddle       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure how this thread wound up on my "recent posts" list but whomever is responsible, thanks!

Maybe it was done because of my post on the God's DNA thread, which itself is missing from my list. It's all good though.

- P

Posts: 1856 | From: Milwaukee, WI | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
blucanary
Jingle Bell Hock


Icon 1 posted      Profile for blucanary   Author's Homepage   E-mail blucanary   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
If a thread of yours gets moved or is deleted then it causes a glitch in the "Recent Posts"

I suppose staring in some horrible movies based on the "Left Behind" books makes Cameron qualified to save our souls now. This is quite hilarious. Why does it sa WDJD on the logo?

--------------------
I would add my signature but the pen won't write on the screen.

Posts: 458 | From: Maryland | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Oualawouzou     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ParaDiddle:
I'm not sure how this thread wound up on my "recent posts" list but whomever is responsible, thanks!

Maybe it was done because of my post on the God's DNA thread, which itself is missing from my list. It's all good though.

- P

I seem to recall seeing it was moved to SLC Central.

--------------------
Le champignon arrive.

Posts: 4372 | From: Quebec | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Methuselah     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by blucanary:
Why does it sa WDJD on the logo?

I believe it's their own take on the "WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) movement. I didn't scour the entire site, nor order the materials, but I believe that the WDJD stands for "What DID Jesus Do"; their way of putting the focus on the belief that Jesus died for man's sins.

I personally preferred the alternate take on WWJD that was going around about two years ago as the Iraq war was beginning. There were stickers and t-shirts asking "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" [Big Grin]

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for DemonWolf     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Milhouse Van Houten:

Answer: (truncated)Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? Big bangs cause chaos. Try this interesting experiment: Empty your garage of every piece of metal, wood, paint, rubber and plastic. Make sure there is nothing there. Nothing. Then wait for ten years and see if a Mercedes evolves. Try it. If it doesnít appear, leave it for 20 years. If that doesnít work, try it for 100 years. [/i]

Actually, if I emptied my driveway, I'm pretty sure that I would find a car there the next morning. It might be my wife's car, But I'm pretty sure that a car will be there, and I didn't put it there.
By Cameron's logic, did I just prove the Big Bang Theory?

--------------------
Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

Posts: 7224 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
ParaDiddle
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for ParaDiddle   E-mail ParaDiddle       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Milhouse Van Houten:
I personally preferred the alternate take on WWJD that was going around about two years ago as the Iraq war was beginning. There were stickers and t-shirts asking "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" [Big Grin]

I always liked the one I saw on t-shirthell.com

"What Would Jesus Do for a Klondike Bar?"

- P

Posts: 1856 | From: Milwaukee, WI | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


Icon 500 posted      Profile for Methuselah     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
quote:
"Christians can't use 'circular reasoning' by trying to prove the Bible by quoting from the Bible!"

The "circular reasoning" argument is absurd. That's like saying you can't prove that the President lives in the White House by looking into the White House. It is looking into the White House that will provide the necessary proof. The fulfilled prophecies, the amazing consistency, and the many scientific statements of the Bible prove it to be the Word of God. They provide evidence that it is supernatural in origin.

Of course, that's really like saying you can definitively prove the President lives in the White House by looking in the White House -- if you see a person living there, it must be the President, because everyone knows the President lives in the White House.

- snopes

And why exactly are these "christians" going around and peeping into the White House anyways...sick perverts. [Razz]

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Arts Myth
The First USA Noel


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Arts Myth   E-mail Arts Myth   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DemonWolf:
Actually, if I emptied my driveway, I'm pretty sure that I would find a car there the next morning. It might be my wife's car, But I'm pretty sure that a car will be there, and I didn't put it there.
By Cameron's logic, did I just prove the Big Bang Theory?

No, but you have proven that your wife is God.

Arts "she who must be obeyed" Myth

--------------------
Stupid, stupid rat creatures! - Bone
"The missionaries told us not to cut ourselves. It displeases Jesus." - Elsie Clews Parsons, Kiowa Tales, quoted in The Mourner's Dance, Katherine Ashenburg

Posts: 695 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Crono
Deck the Malls


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crono   Author's Homepage   E-mail Crono   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thescoot106:
"Man is the master of his own destiny!"
"If man is in total control of his future, then he should at least be in control of his own body. Instead, he is subject to involuntary yawning, sneezing, breathing, swallowing, sleeping, salivating, dreaming, blinking, and thinking. He canít even control hair and nail growth. He automatically does these things, irrespective of his will."

"God made me like this. Sin is His fault!"
"If this wonít work in a civil court, it certainly wonít work on Judgment Day. Even with an expert defense lawyer, it would take a pretty inept judge to fall for the old "God made me do it" defense. We are responsible moral agents. The "buck" stopped at Adam. He tried to blame both God and Eve for his sin; Eve blamed the serpent. It is human nature to try, but it doesnít work with God."

These two don't make sense. One says that God controls people and the other one says that He doesn't. I wish these people would get their story straight before telling people their beliefs.

It's very contradictory, but it also seems to be a common belief among evangelicals, especially Baptists. I remember being taught growing up that God is in complete control over everything, and every event of our lives is a direct product of His intervention. However, I was also taught that we have free will, so we are responsible for our action, including our moral choices and our decision whether or not to accept Him.

Many people who hold this view know that it is contradictory. The explanation is usually something along the lines that it is impossible to fully explain or understand God, so even if it seems contradictory to us, it is still possible for God.

--------------------
Disclaimer: I might know something about everything, but I don't know much about anything.

Posts: 293 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
FaithHopeLOVE
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I like to think that God is omniscient, and knows all that will happen. Man has free will, to make his own decisions, but God knows what those will be.

If you want, it's predestination, except that we don't know what that destination is, nor can we. (Well, I suppose you could make a case for that. I don't know what my destination is, at any rate.)

For the OP, I'm not sure how it's circular logic, refuting Adam being a myth. It's not exactly good logic, either. Isn't there another thread about whether Jesus existed?

Faith "wishes he could leave behind the days spent reading those books [Razz] " Love

IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 302 posted      Profile for Canuckistan   E-mail Canuckistan   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thescoot106:

"God made me like this. Sin is His fault!"
"If this wonít work in a civil court, it certainly wonít work on Judgment Day. Even with an expert defense lawyer, it would take a pretty inept judge to fall for the old "God made me do it" defense. We are responsible moral agents. The "buck" stopped at Adam. He tried to blame both God and Eve for his sin; Eve blamed the serpent. It is human nature to try, but it doesnít work with God."


That analogy doesn't work at all. Of course no judge would accept the "God made me do it" defence. But, on this planet, no sane defendant would say, "Your Honour, you made me this way, so it's your fault." Furthermore, I've yet to see the human judge who claims to be the creator of the defendant in any trial.

Wouldn't a better analogy be confronting the maker of a defective product with evidence that they knowingly made the product defective, then having the maker turn around and blame the product?

--------------------
People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
TrishDaDish
Let There Be PCs on Earth


Icon 1 posted      Profile for TrishDaDish   Author's Homepage   E-mail TrishDaDish   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Example 2:
Objection: "Doesn't the Big Bang theory disprove the Genesis account of creation?"

Answer: (truncated)Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? Big bangs cause chaos. Try this interesting experiment: Empty your garage of every piece of metal, wood, paint, rubber and plastic. Make sure there is nothing there. Nothing. Then wait for ten years and see if a Mercedes evolves. Try it. If it doesnít appear, leave it for 20 years. If that doesnít work, try it for 100 years.

So, I can't accept that something was created out of nothing. Unless it was created by a guy I have no proof exists. Even when I was a good Catholic school girl and believed everything the church told me, I still always had one nagging thought - "If God created the entire world out of nothing, I mean, there was nothing before God made it...then where did God come from? Did He always just exist? That doesn't make sense."

--------------------
I would prefer not to.
My blog

Posts: 4789 | From: Rhode Island | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Unusual Elfin Lights
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Unusual Elfin Lights   Author's Homepage   E-mail Unusual Elfin Lights   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
But, on this planet, no sane defendant would say, "Your Honour, you made me this way, so it's your fault."

It sort of happened recently...
Story

quote:
Richter said he was driven to rob banks because he had already served time in prison for a bank robbery he said he did not commit.

"Many years were already gone from my life," Ackermann said. "When I got out of prison I said to myself: Now I'm going to get even."


Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
The Ota Faction
Happy Holly Days


Icon 218 posted      Profile for The Ota Faction   Author's Homepage   E-mail The Ota Faction   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? Big bangs cause chaos. Try this interesting experiment: Empty your garage of every piece of metal, wood, paint, rubber and plastic. Make sure there is nothing there. Nothing. Then wait for ten years and see if a Mercedes evolves. Try it. If it doesnít appear, leave it for 20 years. If that doesnít work, try it for 100 years.
I tried this a week ago, and all I got was a Dodge Neon; will it turn into a Mercedes, or is that all I'm getting? [Big Grin]

--------------------
"Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are." - Anthelme Brillat-Savarin
"That lonely recluse who lives down the road is crying out. So is that pregnant teenager. And the prostitute. And the drunkard."
Join the Free State Project - I did!

Posts: 1516 | From: *sigh* Elmira, NY | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Grumpy
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 500 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:

"If man is in total control of his future, then he should at least be in control of his own body.... He canít even control hair and nail growth."
versus
"Even with an expert defense lawyer, it would take a pretty inept judge to fall for the old "God made me do it" defense."

Clearly, you need a better defense lawyer.

"Your honor, my client would've been unable to pull the trigger, if only God had caused his fingernails to grow to ridiculous lengths. Therefore, I submit that God is responsible."

I guarantee that would work. (Notaguarantee)

IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
snopes
Return! Return! Return!


Icon 86 posted      Profile for snopes   Author's Homepage   E-mail snopes       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Try to think of any explosion that has produced order.
An exploding tear gas canister in the middle of a riot usually does the trick.

- snopes

Posts: 36029 | From: Admin | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
KingDavid8
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


Icon 1 posted      Profile for KingDavid8   Author's Homepage     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thescoot106:
"Man is the master of his own destiny!"
"If man is in total control of his future, then he should at least be in control of his own body. Instead, he is subject to involuntary yawning, sneezing, breathing, swallowing, sleeping, salivating, dreaming, blinking, and thinking. He can’t even control hair and nail growth. He automatically does these things, irrespective of his will."

"God made me like this. Sin is His fault!"
"If this won’t work in a civil court, it certainly won’t work on Judgment Day. Even with an expert defense lawyer, it would take a pretty inept judge to fall for the old "God made me do it" defense. We are responsible moral agents. The "buck" stopped at Adam. He tried to blame both God and Eve for his sin; Eve blamed the serpent. It is human nature to try, but it doesn’t work with God."

These two don't make sense. One says that God controls people and the other one says that He doesn't. I wish these people would get their story straight before telling people their beliefs.

I don't think the first is saying that God controls those things, just pointing out that not everything we do is a result of our conscious choices. I guess I kind of agree with Kirk on both of these things (though not on everything he says), except I wouldn't say the fact that we involuntarily sneeze, yawn, etc. means that we aren't in control of our destinies, since I don't think that these things really interfere with our destinies. At the very least, I'd say there are better examples of things outside of our conscious will that affect who we become. For example, how our parents raise us certainly affects who we are, having lots of bad experiences in our lives can make us more pessimistic than we would be otherwise, etc.

David

--------------------
www.MySpace.com/KDavid8

Posts: 2530 | From: Lansing, MI | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


Icon 504 posted      Profile for Silas Sparkhammer   Author's Homepage   E-mail Silas Sparkhammer   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by KingDavid8:
. . . I wouldn't say the fact that we involuntarily sneeze, yawn, etc. means that we aren't in control of our destinies, since I don't think that these things really interfere with our destinies. . . .


So the guy hiding from the Gestapo sneezes, and they hear him, and...
quote:

At the very least, I'd say there are better examples of things outside of our conscious will that affect who we become. For example, how our parents raise us certainly affects who we are, having lots of bad experiences in our lives can make us more pessimistic than we would be otherwise, etc.

Being a little more serious, we are not in total control of our minds -- that's why we can lose our tempers, or unexpectedly fall in love. Many times in our lives, we will do or say things that are entirely a surprise -- to ourselves!

(Free will is also impugned -- if only slightly -- by the fact that candy is on display nearby the checkout stand at supermarkets -- and that this actually increases candy sales!)

Personally, I think that the "big tests" of free will are those in which we have some time to think things over. The accountant who embezzles funds from the bank, for instance: such an action requires so much planning and determination that it is very difficult to claim that it happened "in a moment of weakness."

There is a terrible recent story from California, in which a kid -- 13 years old, if memory serves -- completely lost his temper after being teased, after losing a baseball game in a rather humiliating fashion. But the point is that the kid really *was* a good kid -- even the victim's parents say so! -- who was suddenly overwhelmed by a rush of emotion he had never been prepared for.

Silas

Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MisterGrey
Little Sales Drummer Boy


Icon 1 posted      Profile for MisterGrey     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
The sad thing is, there are actually some reasonable, thought-out responses to several of these "objections," but as several snopesters have pointed out, neither Cameron nor his Aussie buddy appear to have any formal training or education which would allow them to answer them in such a fashion. Heck, even a layman who really gives it some thought can come up with some better non-copouts.

Objection: "Doesn't the Big Bang theory disprove the Genesis account of creation?"

Answer: The Bible does not mention in any specific detail the work that God put into creating the earth; its vagueness allows open the possibility that the Big Bang was the method of Genesis, just as birth is the method of bringing new life into the world; God most often works in ways which man can see.

Posts: 2711 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
M. J. Wise
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Kirk Cameron once came to speak at my high school. He's not much of a public speaker either. We were treated to 50 minutes of the most digressing, rambling speech regarding adoption (at least that's what I THINK he was trying to talk about) that I have ever had the opportunity to hear. The only good part came during the Q&A when we convinced him to start re-enacting things from Growing Pains.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Methuselah     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by FaithHopeLOVE:
For the OP, I'm not sure how it's circular logic, refuting Adam being a myth. It's not exactly good logic, either. Isn't there another thread about whether Jesus existed?

It's circular logic in the sense that they're saying, in essence: Our beliefs dictate that Adam existed. Our beliefs dictate that Jesus existed. Our beliefs dictate that Jesus would have to have descended from Adam. You can't be desceded from a myth, therefore; Adam is now a proven truth. [Confused]

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Jusenkyo no Pikachu
We Three Blings


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Jusenkyo no Pikachu     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
...so this is what comes from being in Left Behind, right?

Pi "Unfortunately for all, Left Behind II was a better movie" ka

--------------------
"Never underestimate a nerd from outer space."
--Von, that alien from that Kids Incorporated episode.

Posts: 1189 | From: Australia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Magdalene
Happy Holly Days


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Magdalene   E-mail Magdalene   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm trying to figure out which is worse....when former child stars turn to a life of crime, or when they turn to a life of uber-religion.

There are some who just go middle-of-the-road in their adult lives, aren't there?

Magdalene

--------------------
"Don't mess with me. I dance with swords."

Posts: 1656 | From: Colorado | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
notacoolname
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
My question is why do we think that just because someone was in a popular (but not very good) sitcom (or movie or music video) they are experts on anything?

Kirk Cammeron is an actor- and probably not the most intelligent one on the planet,since he cannot seem to get the rudiments of logic for his "logical" argument proving God. Even if as an evangelical he can't go back to the medieval scholastic movement because it is Catholic, he could at least take one course in logic 101.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
blucanary
Jingle Bell Hock


Icon 1 posted      Profile for blucanary   Author's Homepage   E-mail blucanary   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
There are plenty of middle-of-the-road former child stars. You just never hear about them in the news because it's not so exciting that the kid who played Charlie in Willy Wonka is now a Vet working in upstate new york for dairy farmers, but if he had tunred out to be a crack head we'd have heard about it.

--------------------
I would add my signature but the pen won't write on the screen.

Posts: 458 | From: Maryland | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
  This topic comprises 7 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Codeô is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post new topic  Post a reply Close topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Urban Legends Reference Pages

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2