posted
In regards to the Sumerians and other Mesopotamian peoples being black, it is true that sang-ngi6 means "black head", but it seems to refer to the color of their hair. Also, if you look at statues of Sumerians, they look an awful lot like the people who currently live in the general area. For instance, my girlfriend, who is half Assyrian, bears a resemblance to persons depicted in Sumerian art. The same holds for Iran; statues, coins, stelae, etc. strongly resemble the people currently residing in the area, not blacks.
In regards to Egypt, it is certainly located in Africa, but blacks (and whites) show up in Egyptian art and are portrayed differently than native Egyptians. That, combined with the facts that the Egyptians considered the Nubians (who are black) to be different than themselves and that the locals in Egypt today, be they Arab or Copt, are not black would lead me to believe that the ancient population of Egypt was not black.
Posts: 77 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Jaime Vargas Sanchez: Judging by how the Germans who come here in holiday look, probably Beethoven's contemporaries would say I am dark-skinned too.
Jaime
[hijack]Judging from this picture
even todays Germans would at last think that you do look a little bit odd... [/hijack]
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rotten little boys: None of my dark skinned friend ever burned. Tanned yes, burn no.
[/QB]
Just an FYI (and off topic, I know), but blacks *can* burn, as an Army buddy of my dad's found out once when their platoon spent a day at the beach. They were all shocked--none of them thought blacks could sunburn.
Magdalene
-------------------- "Don't mess with me. I dance with swords." Posts: 1656 | From: Colorado | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Know_Nothing: Any good book on the Jews will tell you that the Pharisees arrived in Palestine with the arrival of Alexander the Great.
The Blacks of Palestine were thus a conquered people, and the Pharisees etc. imposed their will on them. Read about the Khazars and you will realize that they are mostly the White Jews of today. Find out when they adopted Judaism. They are not the real Jews. Have an open mind, relax, and read "Retake Your Fame." You will never be the same again by the time you finish.
Know Nothing continues to live up to his name. I wrote a note on page 2 in this thread- please go back and read it over.
Posts: 479 | From: Owosso, MI | Registered: Jun 2003
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M'eyari
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:The 25 December birthdates and other similarities is the result of altering the stories to make them fit into the Christ story or otherwise Christianising them.
Pardon me, but I always thought that the December 25th birthdate of Christ was a change in the Christ-story to align it more closely with the Winter Solstice, not a change in other religions to align them to Christianity?
IIRC, Christ's birthday as a holiday was changed to draw newly-converted Christians away from the pagan Yule fires that they would have attended had not an important Christian holiday been occurring at the same time (this is why some Christian churches still have midnight services on Christmas Eve - out of habit, though, not to draw the closet pagans from Yule, lol).
quote:Originally posted by Cobra4J: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Know_Nothing: Have an open mind, relax, and read "Retake Your Fame." You will never be the same again by the time you finish.
Know Nothing continues to live up to his name. I wrote a note on page 2 in this thread- please go back and read it over. [/QB]
I find it interesting that Know Nothing asks us to have open minds, yet does not seem to willing to have one himself when others are presenting him with established facts instead of conjectures.
Know Nothing, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with you edifying your race and ancestral culture, provided you do so with actual facts and not conjectures that steal the accomplishments of several other cultures. So far the only sources you have stated do exactly that - a kind of historical plagiarism, imho.
I'll have an open mind towards your views just as soon as you stop quoting books that came from the same bookshelf as "Pyramid Power".
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quote:The 25 December birthdates and other similarities is the result of altering the stories to make them fit into the Christ story or otherwise Christianising them.
Pardon me, but I always thought that the December 25th birthdate of Christ was a change in the Christ-story to align it more closely with the Winter Solstice, not a change in other religions to align them to Christianity?
Yes, the December 25th date for Christmas i thought to be to align it with the winter solstice. What Jason is referring to is the way the Pagan Christs theory then turns around and assigns a birthday of December 25th to various dieties to try to get all of the stories to fit that theory. It's a bit convoluted.
quote:IIRC, Christ's birthday as a holiday was changed to draw newly-converted Christians away from the pagan Yule fires that they would have attended had not an important Christian holiday been occurring at the same time (this is why some Christian churches still have midnight services on Christmas Eve - out of habit, though, not to draw the closet pagans from Yule, lol).
Its a bit of a nitpick, but initially it would have been to align it with the various Winter Solstice related celebrations that went on in the area around the Mediterranean. Yule is the name of the celebrations that went on among the northern heathens and while it shares the time period for the celebration but there are some differences.
Noemi "nitpickin' heathen"
-------------------- Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult. My blog, no guarantees about witty or intelligent content. My current projects. Coveted Beads <---- our eBay store, new items being added somewhat regularly Posts: 8418 | From: Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2002
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Know Nothing, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with you edifying your race and ancestral culture, provided you do so with actual facts and not conjectures that steal the accomplishments of several other cultures. So far the only sources you have stated do exactly that - a kind of historical plagiarism, imho.
I wouldn't call it plagiarism. I would call it racism.
kitap
-------------------- "I have never in my life been more disappointed by a politician I voted for than I have been with George Bush. He is a total liberal."- overheard by me on the shuttle to the U of A game on Nov. 11th. Posts: 3878 | From: Tucson, AZ | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Noemi: Its a bit of a nitpick, but initially it would have been to align it with the various Winter Solstice related celebrations that went on in the area around the Mediterranean. Yule is the name of the celebrations that went on among the northern heathens and while it shares the time period for the celebration but there are some differences.
A nitpick I'm very grateful for. I know you know that it's one of my munchkins.
Jaime
-------------------- "Everyone has problems. They only vary in design" - Mama Duck Posts: 4988 | From: Spain | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I knew Noemi would get it. She's mentioned that the Eddas may have been Christianised. Krishna's birthday wouldn't been on 25 December simply because the Indians did not use the Roman calendar.
The origins of the Christian use of 25 December for Christmas are unknown. Deriving it from pagan sources is highly unlikely, as early Christians abhorred paganism. Giving a Jewish origin would make perfect sense -- the strange calculation for the date of Easter (first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox) derives from the date of Passover (14/15 Nisan -- Nisan begins around the vernal equinox). A popular view in the past was that prophet's lives were complete, that is, a prophet dies on his/her birthday or day of conception. Putting Jesus's death and conception on 25 March gives you a birthday of 25 December.
Saying that Christians appropriated Sol Invinctus is unlikely -- the earliest evidence for Sol Invictus on 25 December dates from 274 while the earliest evidence for Christmas on 25 December is ~200. Earlier data on practices for either is currently unknown.
Finding a Roman holiday for any Christian holiday is easy -- there was a Roman holiday almost every other day! (A Roman writer once complained about it, but I can't find the quote right now.)
-------------------- All posts foretold by Nostradamus.
Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer: I knew Noemi would get it. She's mentioned that the Eddas may have been Christianised.
Thank you. And in a slight digression, I've since found out the situation with the Eddas is even more complicated. Snorri Sturlson was a monk, highly educated and knew the lore for a lot of different regions so along with some Christian elements there are Irish and Greek/Roman influences as well. He also ended up compiling things in an order that made sense to him but may not be accurate.
quote:The origins of the Christian use of 25 December for Christmas are unknown. Deriving it from pagan sources is highly unlikely, as early Christians abhorred paganism. Giving a Jewish origin would make perfect sense -- the strange calculation for the date of Easter (first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox) derives from the date of Passover (14/15 Nisan -- Nisan begins around the vernal equinox). A popular view in the past was that prophet's lives were complete, that is, a prophet dies on his/her birthday or day of conception. Putting Jesus's death and conception on 25 March gives you a birthday of 25 December.
That really makes much more sense than the idea that it was to copy pagan festivals, although you are right that it wouldn't be hard with the Roman religion. I had been trying to stay more neutral in my responses on that issue since I've never been too sure about it myself but I see I really wasn't. Later a lot of the symbols of Yule were added to the celebration of Christmas but I've never been sure if it was a case where the newly Christianized brought those symbols with them or if it was an attempt to draw people in.
Noemi
-------------------- Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult. My blog, no guarantees about witty or intelligent content. My current projects. Coveted Beads <---- our eBay store, new items being added somewhat regularly Posts: 8418 | From: Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Noemi: [QUOTE] Later a lot of the symbols of Yule were added to the celebration of Christmas but I've never been sure if it was a case where the newly Christianized brought those symbols with them or if it was an attempt to draw people in.
Noemi
Couldn't it have been both? I think that's very likely; certainly priests would be trying to get to people with symbols they alreayd were familiar with and many people would be bringing familiar symbols with them- probably some due to the "well, Christianity is correct but *just in case I'm wrong* and the Old Gods are really the correct Gods" mindset.
kitap
-------------------- "I have never in my life been more disappointed by a politician I voted for than I have been with George Bush. He is a total liberal."- overheard by me on the shuttle to the U of A game on Nov. 11th. Posts: 3878 | From: Tucson, AZ | Registered: Jan 2001
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Know_Nothing
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
Racist? Against whom? What ever.. Now you stole my thunder |0| This,i suppose, is a discussion forum not a cult recruting ranch.
As i have said a zillion times, history and its antiquities have been distorted, stolen or destroyed by self serving forces. A 10,000 years of history might have been hard for you, a good example for you will be what happened in the '30s. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/story.jsp?story=568500 http://www.ethiopiaonline.net/obelisk/guardian/pressure.html This was just cought since we had a matured political and deplomatic dialoge between nations and powers, it would unlikely to happen Thousands of years ago when invaders loot and destroy anything that doesn't sevrve their desire, especially if it depicts people other than the invaders. Check whose sphinx is 12,000 years.
Where was the first sophisticated alphabet ever discovered while the rest was using object and animal image to write? The Nile Valley app.2000BC! Greek, Arabic, Hebrew are closer to each other than the Nubian or even the ge'ez, compare the alphabet link at the bottom: """"" In 1993-1994 American Egyptologists surveying ancient travel routes in southern Egypt discovered inscriptions in a semi-cursive Semitic script in the Nile valley in Egypt, dated at about 1900 bc to 1800 bc, which constitute the earliest evidence of semi-alphabetic writing. Before this discovery, the general supposition was that the first known alphabet developed in Palestine and Syria between 1700 and 1500 bc. This alphabet, known as North Semitic, evolved from a combination of cuneiform and hieroglyphic symbols; some symbols might have been taken from kindred systems, such as the Cretan and Hittite. The North Semitic alphabet consisted exclusively of 22 consonants. The vowel sounds of a word had to be supplied by the speaker or reader. The Hebrew, Arabic, and Phoenician alphabets were based on this model and the present-day Hebrew and Arabic alphabets still consist of consonantal letters only, the former having 22 and the latter 28. Some of these, however, may be used to represent long vowels, and vowels may also be indicated in writing by optional vowel points and dashes placed below, above, or to the side of the consonant. Writing is from the right to the left.
Many scholars believe that around 1000 bc four branches developed from the original Semitic alphabet: South Semitic, Canaanite, Aramaic, and Greek. (Other scholars, however, believe that South Semitic developed independently from North Semitic or that both developed from a common ancestor.) The South Semitic branch was the ancestor of the alphabets of extinct languages used in the Arabian Peninsula and in the modern languages of Ethiopia. Canaanite was subdivided into Early Hebrew and Phoenician, and the extremely important Aramaic branch became the basis of Semitic and non-Semitic scripts throughout western Asia. The non-Semitic group was the basis of the alphabets of nearly all Indian scripts; the Semitic sub-branch includes Square Hebrew, which superseded Early Hebrew to become the prototype of modern Hebrew writing.
Greek and Roman Alphabets Around 1000-900 bc the Greeks adapted the Phoenician variant of the Semitic alphabet, expanding its 22 consonant symbols to 24 (even more in some dialects), and setting apart some of the original consonant symbols to serve exclusively as vowels. There were several forms of the Greek alphabet, Chalcidian (western) and Ionic (eastern) being the most prominent. After about 500 bc, Greek was regularly written from left to right and the Ionic script was dominant. The Greek alphabet spread throughout the Mediterranean world, giving rise to various modified forms, including the Etruscan (from Chalcidian), Oscan, Umbrian, and Roman (or Latin) alphabets. The Roman alphabet developed mainly from the Etruscan script. Because of Roman conquests and the spread of the Latin language, that language’s Roman alphabet became the basic alphabet of all the languages of Western Europe."""""
If you read atleast one of these languages, you will answer most of your questions for yourself.
quote:Originally posted by Noemi: Snorri Sturlson was a monk, highly educated and knew the lore for a lot of different regions so along with some Christian elements there are Irish and Greek/Roman influences as well.
So the Eddas may actually be a slightly Christian, slightly Irish, slightly Roman, and slightly Greek Norse myth?
That's kind of like the situation with the old version of Egyptian religion -- no-one could read the hieroglyphs before the Rosetta Stone so people made up a Egyptian religion based on the Greek and Roman writers (the ancient Greek and Roman writers were guilty of this). It turns out the old version was completely wrong (although Afrocentric writers have used the old, incorrect version to demonstrate that white Greek stole from "black Egyptians").
quote:Originally posted by Noemi: Later a lot of the symbols of Yule were added to the celebration of Christmas but I've never been sure if it was a case where the newly Christianized brought those symbols with them or if it was an attempt to draw people in.
I would bet on a popular adoption of those symbols along with bishops either ignoring it or being unable to do anything about it. Some of it may be new Christians bringing along their traditions or it may be Christians creating new customs to remind them of Christian ideas, which would be similar to non-Christian traditions because Christians and non-Christians live in the same world.
The Yule Log was probably a popular adaption of winter fires to keep warm in the cold weather in December in the northern hemisphere and only related to non-Christian December fire traditions by the source -- the coldness of the winter around them and the warmth a fire brings!
-------------------- All posts foretold by Nostradamus.
Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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I followed the links. I do not see where this proves or disproves anyones point. Yes, the Italians took the art. Yes, the Ethiopians deserve their art back.
Are you pointing to the age of the monoliths?
quote:Originally posted by Know_Nothing: Where was the first sophisticated alphabet ever discovered while the rest was using object and animal image to write? The Nile Valley app.2000BC! Greek, Arabic, Hebrew are closer to each other than the Nubian or even the ge'ez, compare the alphabet link at the bottom:
Yes, it is common knowledge that civiliazation began in that area. This is not in dispute either.
For the sake of space, I have deleted the rest of your post. It can be found directly above.
Eh, you are begining to make moot points on this already agreed upon by many scholars. But two things that bother me. Why did you dismiss the contemporary portraits of Bethoven, only chosing those that supported your point?
You still have yet to answer wether you think my name is mythology only.
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quote:Where was the first sophisticated alphabet ever discovered while the rest was using object and animal image to write? The Nile Valley app.2000BC!
In 1993-1994 American Egyptologists surveying ancient travel routes in southern Egypt discovered inscriptions in a semi-cursive Semitic script in the Nile valley in Egypt, dated at about 1900 bc to 1800 bc
Which brings us back to the seemingly very broad definiton of "black." Egyptian contribution is unquestionable to several fields, but can Egyptians accurately be described as black? African does not traditionally equate with black.
Asside from the jillions of inaccuracies already pointed out by my fellow snopesters, any of which can rip this book's claims to shreds, I have to wonder if accomplishments, even if true, can be equated with contribution to society if said accomplishments are done in isolation. For example, Aztec or Mayan accomplishments in Mathmatics or Astronomy are quite impressive, but they cannot be said to have contrtibuted to European understanding in the same fields. Even if West and South African tribesman did make certain advances, their influence on Egyptian, North African and Middle Eastern culture and thought is harder to demonstrate.
-------------------- "If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006. Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Know_Nothing: As i have said a zillion times, history and its antiquities have been distorted, stolen or destroyed by self serving forces.
However, as many many of us have said just as many times, you have yet to give any reputable sources (some random person's Geo-Cities-esque webpage is not reputable) with which to back up your rather far-fetched claims. Until you do, no one is going to belive a word you say; it's as simple as that.
-------------------- ̉If you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way.Ó -Emile Zola Posts: 1046 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by kitap of the really, really dead: Couldn't it have been both? I think that's very likely; certainly priests would be trying to get to people with symbols they alreayd were familiar with and many people would be bringing familiar symbols with them- probably some due to the "well, Christianity is correct but *just in case I'm wrong* and the Old Gods are really the correct Gods" mindset.
That is entirely possible and matches up with some of the archeological finds like baptismal fonts craved with runes and cross pendants that look a lot like Thor's Hammers.
Noemi
-------------------- Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult. My blog, no guarantees about witty or intelligent content. My current projects. Coveted Beads <---- our eBay store, new items being added somewhat regularly Posts: 8418 | From: Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2002
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Simonstrical
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
UE Loyalist:
You appear to be an intelligent scholar, who has the ability to think clearly about a course of action.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer: So the Eddas may actually be a slightly Christian, slightly Irish, slightly Roman, and slightly Greek Norse myth?
The Younger (Prose) Edda at least. The Elder Edd itt depends on the translation you read.
quote:That's kind of like the situation with the old version of Egyptian religion -- no-one could read the hieroglyphs before the Rosetta Stone so people made up a Egyptian religion based on the Greek and Roman writers (the ancient Greek and Roman writers were guilty of this).
Interesting, I didn't realize that the Greeks and Romans had done that. I had always thought the misinterpretations started much later.
quote: I would bet on a popular adoption of those symbols along with bishops either ignoring it or being unable to do anything about it. Some of it may be new Christians bringing along their traditions or it may be Christians creating new customs to remind them of Christian ideas, which would be similar to non-Christian traditions because Christians and non-Christians live in the same world.
I think that is also a big part of it as well. The Norse in poarticular held out the longest against Christianity, and as I mentioned in response to kitap, there are a lot of things that show signs of that. There are some customs that were pretty clearly borrowed like the Yule log, decorated trees, and the use of evergreens.
quote:The Yule Log was probably a popular adaption of winter fires to keep warm in the cold weather in December in the northern hemisphere and only related to non-Christian December fire traditions by the source -- the coldness of the winter around them and the warmth a fire brings!
Yes and no. Yule is a winter solstice celebration but because of the cold and long winters in the North its focus was on the countdown to spring starting. The Yule log symbolized a number of things but one was the coming warmth of spring. Evergreens symbolized the new growth of spring and decorated evergreens symbolized growing fruit trees. When these symbols moved over they took on new meanings.
Noemi
-------------------- Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult. My blog, no guarantees about witty or intelligent content. My current projects. Coveted Beads <---- our eBay store, new items being added somewhat regularly Posts: 8418 | From: Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2002
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Know_Nothing
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
Someone asked me about the construction of Stonehenge.
Anyone can go to the library and read books on Irish History. According to Irish mythology, Stonehenge was built by giants from Africa. Read also about the dreaded Formorians. They were Africans.
Megaliths like Stonehenge can be found in many places around the world, not only in England. They can be found in Africa, the Yemen etc.
Here is a link to Nabta, older than Stonehenge in England by at least a thousand years.
Know_Nothing
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
I forgot to add: Someone asked where the ancient Blacks in Britain are.
They wre later conquered by Whites and intermixture led to their ultimate disappearance. However, the Gypsies are remnants of Blacks. The term "Gypsy" is a corruption or shortening of "Egyptian."
In his book "Ancient and Modern Britons," first published in the 19th century, Scottish historian David MacRitchie has presented enough evidence to prove that the Gypsies were Black. The pure blooded gypsies have mixed mostly with Whites.
Blacks in England like the Black Picts were subdued by the Romans.
Posts: 127 | From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2004
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Know_Nothing
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
It is possible that the Black man forsaw his demise and thus decided to leave behind concrete prove proof that he had once been master of the world
The Great Sphinx of Egypt clearly depicts a "negro." Some believe it is a representation of Khafre. However, it more likely depicts Horus I, sometimes called Ra.
The Sphinx is thousands of years older than Khafre.
quote:Originally posted by Know_Nothing: The Great Sphinx of Egypt clearly depicts a "negro."
I look and I look, and I just can't see that. It's a stylized human, damaged by weather and Mamelukes, and it could as easily be Mao Tse Tung as Nelson Mandela.
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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ticrazyguy
The Red and the Green Stamps
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Just to put in a few good words for the Egyptians, I remember a college professor talking about them being VERY tolerant of different people. "The question was not whether if you were white or black, but were you civilized. And their word for civilized was the same word for Egyption." I believe race was talked about and that Egypt did have a diverse population. What made up most of the population was hard to say, but it definitly had a black population. It was a very interesting class and I still rember a lot of what happend.
I took a good look at a couple close-up pictures on the sphinx, and if I had to make a bet, I would say the model was black.
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rotten little boys
The Red and the Green Stamps
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I'll be hanged. You finally showed a piece of information that could be quantified. But are you sure you want to use this?
Yes, the Fomorians were thought to be from Northern Africa or even Asia. Here, I will just copy and paste. "The Fomorians were an ancient sea-faring race it is thought that they originally came from Northern Africa or Asia as they are described as having dark hair and dark skin in the original accounts."
But the account goes on to say that not all Fomorians were dark. Take this for example. "Most Fomorians are described as dark-haired but there are exceptions Elatha the father of Bres being described as having 'golden-hair and being the handsomest man in sight'." Here is the link. http://www.shee-eire.com/Magic&Mythology/Races/Formorians/Page1.htm
From Wikipedia. "In Celtic mythology, the Fomorians, or Fomors were a race of giants who were the occupants of Ireland before the Gaels. They were said to be the offspring of Noah's son, Ham. They are said to have had the body of a man and the head of a goat, according to an 11th century text called The Book of the Dun Cow." Hmmm... Goat heads, huh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians
And this..."Irish-Celtic mythology, the Fomorians are a race of demonic giants, ancient occupants of Ireland (or sometimes mentioned as a mythical, prehistoric people who raided and pillaged Ireland from the sea). The first to invade Ireland were the Partholons, but after many battles the Fomorians afflicted them all with plague." http://www.pantheon.org/articles/f/fomorians.html
All I am getting out of this is a bunch of disjointed facts. It is like trying to piece together a fish tail and a frog head because they both live in the water.
Gypsis have been traced back to northern India through linguistics; not Africa.
"Most Roma speak some form of Romany, a language closely related to the modern Indo-European languages of northern India." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsies
"THE ORIGIN OF GYPSIES The Gypsy race originated in the northern part of India near the Punjab Region [Demand 1980:31]." http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/Roma ___Sinti__Gypsies_/Gypsies__A_Persecuted_Race/gypsies__ a_persecuted_race.html#origins
You still have not answered my question on Beethovens picture or my name.
We all agree that Africans have made many contributions to the world, but your concept is no better than when whites thought they were the chosen people to run God's world as they saw fit. Non-white people were not even considered human.
We will not lay down and agree with you that Africans are the supreme race of the world, having birthed the only good things in this universe.
No one here will change your mind but I hope you finally see your errors some day and come back to the middle ground where we are all HUMAN and NEED ONE ANOTHER.
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quote:Originally posted by Know_Nothing: I forgot to add: Someone asked where the ancient Blacks in Britain are....Blacks in England like the Black Picts were subdued by the Romans.
The trouble with names like the "Black Picts" is that the word Black could mean anything. Case in point: In Lucan Ontario, there is the old story of the Donnelly family brutally murdered by a lynch mob. I have often heard of them (and have seen a book with the title) called the "Black Donnellys".
They were not called Black because of the colour of their skin. They were first generation Irish immigrants, caucasian each one.
About Stonehenge: The remains of the archer found at Stonehenge, and of the child found at nearby Woodhenge were not African. They are of the same background as all the families buried in the tumuli nearby. They are the ancestors of the Britons.
Your statement that because there is a circle of stones in Africa older than Stonehenge, it must mean that one is the inspiration of the other is false. When I lived in the UK I was within 800 metres of Woodhenge and 3000 metres of Stonehenge. Both sites are visited very much by people from around the world. However, if you search Woodhenge on the internet, the most popular site (in my experience) for the search is an ancient site in North America (Wisconsin I believe). I do not think that these two similar sites were built with the knowledge of the other.
Do you?
I grow weary of the argument. Good night.
Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004
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M'eyari
The Red and the Green Stamps
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Noemi the Nitpicking Heathen Thank you for the clarification, it was very much appreciated!
Kitap I was trying to be nice. It's that darn melancholy/phlegmatic personality of mine at work. (Personality type assessed while reading Personality Plus: How to Understand Others by Understanding Yourself by Florence Littauer; it's an interesting read if you're into that sort of thing.)
Jason Threadslayer Very interesting, I did not know that Christ's birth could have been calculated from his death like that. Thank you.
Noemi and Jason - I don't think I was clear when expressing my thought on why Christmas corresponds with Winter Solstice (though come to think of it, isn't Winter Solstice usually on the 21st or 22nd of December? In which case, it wouldn't correspond, now would it?). The thought behind that theory wasn't that the early Christians were trying to copy their pagan neighbors, but to set their own holy date (and its accompanying festivities) specifically on an established pagan date to keep their newly converted Christians in their churches and prevent them from "slipping" and celebrating Solstice with their nonconverted friends and relatives (and then possibly have those new converts think "To heck with this Christianity thing! It's back to the old gods for me!"). Yule was simply the example that I was most familiar with, though to be honest I'm not very familiar with non-Christian holidays (but open to learning, I assure you.)
Part of what reinforced my original thought of that theory possibly being true (other than that that was the going theory being taught in my medieval lit. courses when I was in school) was the fact that the Western and Eastern (Orthodox) churches celebrate Christmas on different days - I believe the Orthodox date is January 7th, but I could be wrong. Since the churches split pretty much with the Roman Empire (around 400 CE/AD, I think - my apologies for my fuzzy memory), that leads to two thoughts: A, that the exact date of Christmas wasn't pegged down before the churches split; or B, that Jan. 7th was the original accepted date and the Western church changed it on their calendar because of the aforementioned theory.
Know Nothing - you're getting better with verifying. Not perfect, but better - as someone else mentioned, you need good verifiable (and unbiased) sites as sources. University sites are usually good for this.
Keep trying, and you will have my attention. I'm not saying I'll believe you - just that I will try harder to listen. Could you post a picture of the Sphynx, for example, and point out exactly what it is that you see as black features? Perhaps telling me exactly what you consider to be black features could be a help...
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quote:Originally posted by kitap of the really, really dead: Couldn't it have been both? I think that's very likely; certainly priests would be trying to get to people with symbols they alreayd were familiar with and many people would be bringing familiar symbols with them- probably some due to the "well, Christianity is correct but *just in case I'm wrong* and the Old Gods are really the correct Gods" mindset.
That is entirely possible and matches up with some of the archeological finds like baptismal fonts craved with runes and cross pendants that look a lot like Thor's Hammers.
Besides, by the time Christianity reached those regions, it was already somewhat "established", just not there, right? So while "pandering to pagans" might have been a necessity when Christianity was trying to spread through the Roman Empire, when it travelled North it had enough strength, prestige and (more importantly) self-confidence as not not have to resort to those tactics.
Jaime
-------------------- "Everyone has problems. They only vary in design" - Mama Duck Posts: 4988 | From: Spain | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by M'eyari: Noemi and Jason - I don't think I was clear when expressing my thought on why Christmas corresponds with Winter Solstice (though come to think of it, isn't Winter Solstice usually on the 21st or 22nd of December? In which case, it wouldn't correspond, now would it?).
You're thinking in the Gregorian Calendar... on the Julian Calendar, it was different (in fact, it drifted by 1 day every ~128 years). The winter solstice was on 21 December in 325, the year the First Council of Nicaea was held. One of the acts of the Council was to establish the date of Easter to "the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox", set the date of the vernal equinox to 21 March, and set the date of Easter based on that date. When astronomers brought the drifting date to the attention of Pope Gregory, he decided to fix the calendar so that the solstices and equinoxes matched what they were in 325. In 325, the dates had drifted by 3 days from when Julius Caesar had set the dates, so that the winter solstice had originally occured on 24 or 25 December. By the time Christmas was first mentioned (~200), the winter solstice fell on 22 or 23 December.
quote:Originally posted by M'eyari: Part of what reinforced my original thought of that theory possibly being true (other than that that was the going theory being taught in my medieval lit. courses when I was in school) was the fact that the Western and Eastern (Orthodox) churches celebrate Christmas on different days - I believe the Orthodox date is January 7th, but I could be wrong. Since the churches split pretty much with the Roman Empire (around 400 CE/AD, I think - my apologies for my fuzzy memory), that leads to two thoughts: A, that the exact date of Christmas wasn't pegged down before the churches split; or B, that Jan. 7th was the original accepted date and the Western church changed it on their calendar because of the aforementioned theory.
Close. The Eastern Orthodox celebrate Christmas on 25 December... except on the Julian Calendar. 25 December on the Julian Calendar falls on 7 January on the Gregorian calendar. The Gregorian Calendar was adopted after the Reformation (which came well after the Great Schism -- 1054 is the date that is usually given, but there were short-lived unions up until 1453) and the Eastern Orthodox Churches have yet to completely adopt that calendar.
The Armenians celebrate Christmas 6 January. I'm not sure if all of the Ancient Churches of the East celebrate that same day. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Epiphany/Theophany (Visitation of the Magi) that day (19 January to people using the Gregorian Calendar). Epiphany/Theophany has a much greater significance in the East and in the first two century of Christian history so that it is likely that Christians celebrated it rather than Christmas (which doesn't show up extant calendars until later). Some people believe that the date of Christmas was fixed based on the date of Epiphany/Theophany (I forgot about that when I made my previous post).
Epiphany is 12 days after Christmas and the period between was 12 days straight of feasting, the origin of "The Twelve Days of Christmas".
-------------------- All posts foretold by Nostradamus.
Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
This debate brought to mind a theory I remembery being presented on Discovery Channel some years back. The host believe there was advanced civilization from 14,000-10,000BC that influenced architecture, religion, science and culture. Evidence was basically linked to the positons of pyramids and temples in relation to constellations. Supposedly, the layout of these structures in many parts of the world resemble constellations, but not as they appeared in 2000BC. A computerized star map from 14000BC was thoguht to be a much closer match. Though likely centered in Africa, the reach of this lost civilization was thought to be as far as South America and Japan. No reason for the demise of this once-great power was given.
However, any connection between these prehistoric advanced people and modern civilization was supposed to have been lost. It was also unlikely even if they existed that their race would correspond to any modern group today. They would have been the ancestors of people groups trhoughout the world-the original race. All of this to say, African origin may or may not correspond to race as we now percieve it. It is intellectually dishonest to say African = black when so much of the world can trace their roots to Africa.
-------------------- "If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006. Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Or maybe they were striped, like Zebras. More likely, it's probalby best I not try to post under the influence of percocet!
El "lost more than just my civilization" wood
ETA: Seriously though, is there not evidence that the default skin color for the human race is a middle-brown, something similar to the Middle-Eastern people of today or is that just the Creationist Literature passing as real science?
-------------------- "If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006. Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Elwood - might that Discovery channel special been on the Atlanteans? It sounds vaguely familiar
The series was hosted by Graham Hancock. It is called Quest for the Lost Civilization I don't think Atlantis had much part in his thinking He has a video series and a book about his theory. Book here
El "the things I remember" wood
-------------------- "If I didn't see it and didn't know it was a real news report, I wouldn't believe it. I mean, how nutty can you get?"-Pat Robertson Oct 26, 2006. Posts: 2936 | From: Mean Streets of West Virginia | Registered: Feb 2003
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She's mentioned that the Eddas may have been Christianised. Krishna's birthday wouldn't been on 25 December simply because the Indians did not use the Roman calendar.
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