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Author Topic: Icicle as weapon
DemonWolf
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I have heard of people getting killed by falling icicles, so I wolud say the this sounds plausable.

The mythbusters test was done usung ice bullets, I wonder if the shock of being fired may have weakened the bullets prior to impact.

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Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by DemonWolf:
I have heard of people getting killed by falling icicles, so I wolud say the this sounds plausable.

Ah, but were they killed by a stab-type wound (from sharp ice) or by blunt trauma (from a large weight of frozen water) ?
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Keeper of the Mad Bunnies
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc J.:
quote:
Originally posted by DemonWolf:
I have heard of people getting killed by falling icicles, so I wolud say the this sounds plausable.

Ah, but were they killed by a stab-type wound (from sharp ice) or by blunt trauma (from a large weight of frozen water) ?
More likely, blunt trauma.

News Article about People Killed by Falling Icicles

James Powell

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Joe Bentley
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All I know is it made a cool scene in Die Hard 2.

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Dondi
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I think there was an episode of CSI that had a similiar case where a frozen bullet was used. Actually, I think it was a frozen meat bullet, but it took a while to figure out what happened.

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FullMetal
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i thought the mythbusters determined that the bullet actually melted and evaporated due to the heat of being fired through a gun. i think they should have used a pistol however, less friction in the gunbarrel. might make more of the bullet survive leaving the gun.
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Joe Bentley
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The Mythbuster also did another episode were they did a test that confirmed that a large icicle can penetrate a human skull, even if dropped from only a small distance.

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Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
The Mythbuster also did another episode were they did a test that confirmed that a large icicle can penetrate a human skull, even if dropped from only a small distance.

. . . so they did. Well, I stand corrected then.
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Pseudo_Croat
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Yes, but that's an icicle falling on someone from a distance. Could that exact same icicle be deadly if used to stab someone at close range? The mass would be the same, but the velocity wouldn't, so I'm not sure. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

- Pseudo_Croat

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Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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IIRC, the mythbusters used a 4lb icicle (2Kg) dropped from a height of 15 ft (5m) - what you now need is somebody to work out the kinetic energy or acceleration, or some other physics witchcraft, as I gave up trying to understand it 16 years ago.
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Brad from Georgia
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In one of his Dr. Fell novels, The Hollow Man (1935), John Dickson Carr devotes a chapter to various "impossible murder" devices--including stabbing the victim with an icicle and shooting the victim with a bullet made of his own frozen blood. Carr treats these as fictional devices--indeed, the novel is an example of metafiction, since Dr. Fell cheerfully admits at the beginning of the chapter that he and all the other investigators are only characters in a mystery story. One of them, a policeman iirc, gets rather grumpy about that.

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DemonWolf
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quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
Yes, but that's an icicle falling on someone from a distance. Could that exact same icicle be deadly if used to stab someone at close range? The mass would be the same, but the velocity wouldn't, so I'm not sure. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

- Pseudo_Croat

The velocity might be about the same. The strenght of your swing would make up for the lack of falling distance.
If I drop my knife, blade first, into my hardwood floor the tip would penetrate about an eighth of an inch into the wood (and my wife would get pissed), but if I held the knife and plunged it in, it would penetrate much deeper, if it didn't break (and my wife would get pissed).

Demon "He Who Sleeps on Couch" Wolf

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by FullMetal:
i thought the mythbusters determined that the bullet actually melted and evaporated due to the heat of being fired through a gun. i think they should have used a pistol however, less friction in the gunbarrel. might make more of the bullet survive leaving the gun.

From what I understand, it still wont work. Ice s very britle and it wasnt part of the myth that they were testing. The heat would still cause it to melt to a point where it would not make it to the victim and inflict a lethal wound. The many gum experts have testified to this on the Mythbusters forums.

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FrogFeathers
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Everyone is mentioning where they heard different things from (Mythbusters, books, etc)...

I read the same type of thing in "The Lovely Bones".

Very awesome book, btw. And Mythbusters is totally cool.

And beyond that, I have nothing to add, aside from it gets pretty cold here in Wisconsin, and I've seen some vicious-looking icicles on my own house. My husband is disabled and on blood thinners, so I spend a couple days a week in late winter banging those off my roof, lest one fall on his head.

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BlackForge
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First, it does not need to be very sharp or hard to puncher. It makes it easier by requiring less force at on the object. Flesh only has so much striengh before it tears. I do not know what the streigth of skin is but for this lets say it tear at 1000 pounds per square inch. If the point of my spear were broken so that the pointy end had on sq inch of flat erea (a little lest the the area of a dime), I would have to put 1000 pound of force behind it to stab you and break the skin. Of cours to go further in you would have to tear more skin and flesh as you go deaper and widen the hole, but I will keep it simple for this example (mainly because I don't know all the number and don't wish to look them up or do the math). So if I sharpen my spear some and now tip has an area of 1/10 inch. I will only need 100 pound of force to break the skin. If I sharpen it more say down to 1/100 an inch, then I only need 10 pounds of force. I does not need to be sharp, but it helps. Hardness helps in that it makes it harder for the flesh to deform the sharpend edge and therefore requiring more force.

So can some be stabbed with ice. Yes! Can a normal human with out any aid other than something to hold it with, pick up a large enough peice as to not easly break and put enough force behind it to stabbe some and kill them? This I do not know. It would have to be a gut wound and a slow death anyway. It is hard enough to stab a person in the chest with a knife and it does not have to worry as much about breaking on a rib.

I do believe it can be done, but it had better one dam good shoot do it with out breaking the ice.

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BlackForge
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I was thinking about how a person could possibly shoot a ice projectile from a gun last night. The first thing one would have to do is slow down the exceleration. There are two ways to do that first is the powder and second is the size of the shot. So smokless powder is out and we use black powder. As for the shot that is easy if you know some gun/rifle history. During the 1700 and 1800s there was a large calibre shot musket called a Blunderbuss.

Anyway if I were to try and make this work that is were I would start. If I can't shoot a ice ball from large calibre blunderbuss, then I do not think anything else is going to work.

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Jay Tea
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BlackForge

You ever seen a potato gun work out?

Works with ice too... [Wink] (Just for laffs - few secs to load)

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/iceballgun.html

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moonfall86
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I was going to mention The Lovely Bones. Some kids entered a "Commit the Perfect Murder" thinking contest at a gifted symposium, and the winner came up with the icicle idea. I don't think the book specified how it was supposed to be used.

However:

SPOILER ALERT

At the end of the book, Susie (the narrator) gets revenge on her murderer by somehow causing an icicle to fall on him and knock him into a ditch, where he drowns.

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Delta-V
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackForge:
I was thinking about how a person could possibly shoot a ice projectile from a gun last night.

You wouldn't need to bother with a gun. A sling or slingshot can be just as deadly. For that matter, compressed air would work quite nicely.

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DemonWolf
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackForge:
It would have to be a gut wound and a slow death anyway.

A neck would migh bleed profusely and possibly kill withing minuted if the corrotid (sp?) atrery was severed.

I agree, My vote is for possible, but a person is unlikely to find an icecle of sufficient size and strength for the job.

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Joseph Z
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Die Hard 2 - Bruce Willis

John tries to subdue a guard but his beeper goes off. They go into a fight. As John is laying on the ground about to die, he reaches for an icicle and runs it through the guard's eye and snaps off the part he grasped onto.

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Joseph Z

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chillas
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quote:
Originally posted by Joseph Z:
Die Hard 2 - Bruce Willis

[Roll Eyes]

Joe Bentley mentioned that half a page and four days ago.

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abigsmurf
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actually if you were to mix sawdust with water and freeze it you could easily make bullets that could the force of being fired.

It's a little known fact that sawdust and ice is an extremely tough material, you can pound it with a sledgehammer and it won't crack

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Rogue1stclass
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It may be possible to kill someone with an icicle. Hell, it's possible to kill someone with a Cabbage Patch doll. Doesn't mean it's easy, though.

I think the most likely result trying to stab someone with an icicle is the icicle slipping out of your hands. However, if you got around this, you have potential. The potential of a person armed with a tent stake.

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Dr. Van Thorp
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On the subject of the ice bullet:

There is a documentary about Scotland Yard's "Black Museum" starring David Nivin. The Black Museum is the Yard's colection of unique weapons and devices used in the commission of crimes. In the documentary, the items are shown and David Niven describes their function and use. The film makers were given un-precidented access to Scottland Yard's collection, and I beleive that the film was entirely factual in its description of all the weaopns shown.

One of the items was a pistol modified to shoot ice bullets. The pistol was loaded with a blank, then tipped barrel-up so that the barrel could be filled with water, then the gun was placed in a freezer to freeze the water in to a solid bullet. The documentary said that the pistol had been used in an actual murder.

So, yes, ice bullets are possible.

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by abigsmurf:
actually if you were to mix sawdust with water and freeze it you could easily make bullets that could the force of being fired.

It's a little known fact that sawdust and ice is an extremely tough material, you can pound it with a sledgehammer and it won't crack

Except that would leave ballistic evidence. The whole point of the Ice bullet myth is to have a bullet that would leave no evidence whatsoever and be able to kill a person at a far range. THere is no way that I have seen that can be done. I have read just about every idea on teh mythbusters forums about this. This has been debunked long ago.

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But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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Oualawouzou
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How come nobody remembers Mortal Kombat? You do not need to stab someone with an icicle. Just throw some water in his general direction and let him freeze it in mid-air! T'was a somewhat lame movie, but that scene was cool. [Razz]

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diddy
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quote:
One of the items was a pistol modified to shoot ice bullets. The pistol was loaded with a blank, then tipped barrel-up so that the barrel could be filled with water, then the gun was placed in a freezer to freeze the water in to a solid bullet. The documentary said that the pistol had been used in an actual murder.

So, yes, ice bullets are possible.

Unless there is a documented actual murder where it can be conclucsively show that an Ice bullet was used in a murder that was unsovled, I',m going to be unconvinced since all evidence that I have said that an Ice bullet wold not stand up to the heat, friction, stress, accuracy etc that would make it a lethal object that leaves ablolutley no evidence and could be a viable murder weapon simply does not work.

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W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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HYHYBT
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quote:
Unless there is a documented actual murder where it can be conclucsively show that an Ice bullet was used in a murder that was unsovled, I',m going to be unconvinced
Why an *unsolved* murder?
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BlackForge
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quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
quote:
One of the items was a pistol modified to shoot ice bullets. The pistol was loaded with a blank, then tipped barrel-up so that the barrel could be filled with water, then the gun was placed in a freezer to freeze the water in to a solid bullet. The documentary said that the pistol had been used in an actual murder.

So, yes, ice bullets are possible.

Unless there is a documented actual murder where it can be conclucsively show that an Ice bullet was used in a murder that was unsovled, I',m going to be unconvinced since all evidence that I have said that an Ice bullet wold not stand up to the heat, friction, stress, accuracy etc that would make it a lethal object that leaves ablolutley no evidence and could be a viable murder weapon simply does not work.
All evidence I have seen does not account for older blackpowder weapons. The test are done with todays smokeless gunpowder which is a lot more powerfull than the old blackpowder. Also most of the blackpowder weapons used wadding that would have help protect the ice from heat. The biggest problem with the old hand guns was range and accracy, they both left a lot to be desired.
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skrap
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quote:
Originally posted by DemonWolf:
I agree, My vote is for possible, but a person is unlikely to find an icecle of sufficient size and strength for the job. [/QB]

Remind me to take a picture of some the the icicles we get here in February or March. [Big Grin] Some of them are almost as long as I am tall.
skrap

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TailsAndy
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Would you like to see icicles in here in Buffalo? [Big Grin]

I've seen one that actually went from the roof to the ground at a neighbors house. Had to be at least a foot thick, touching the wall of the house all the way. The outside edge was, I'm guessing, 6 inches from the wall. Saw it every day, as the house was right across the street. Wish I had a picture, though. It's long gone now. [Frown]

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by HYHYBT:
quote:
Unless there is a documented actual murder where it can be conclucsively show that an Ice bullet was used in a murder that was unsovled, I',m going to be unconvinced
Why an *unsolved* murder?
The purpose of a ice bullet would have no ballistic evidence to use. Therefore it would impossible to link the bullet to a killer.

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W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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diddy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by BlackForge:
quote:
Originally posted by diddy:
quote:
One of the items was a pistol modified to shoot ice bullets. The pistol was loaded with a blank, then tipped barrel-up so that the barrel could be filled with water, then the gun was placed in a freezer to freeze the water in to a solid bullet. The documentary said that the pistol had been used in an actual murder.

So, yes, ice bullets are possible.

Unless there is a documented actual murder where it can be conclucsively show that an Ice bullet was used in a murder that was unsovled, I',m going to be unconvinced since all evidence that I have said that an Ice bullet wold not stand up to the heat, friction, stress, accuracy etc that would make it a lethal object that leaves ablolutley no evidence and could be a viable murder weapon simply does not work.
All evidence I have seen does not account for older blackpowder weapons. The test are done with todays smokeless gunpowder which is a lot more powerfull than the old blackpowder. Also most of the blackpowder weapons used wadding that would have help protect the ice from heat. The biggest problem with the old hand guns was range and accracy, they both left a lot to be desired.
All evidence that I have seen says that it wont work at all. The problem is that leand is far more dense than ice is at any state. Its just too britle to make a effective lethal projectal. It is also subject to the extreme heat that guns produce and the friction. When ice even melts a bit, the physics change and the entire effectiveness of the bullet changes. From wehat I have read on the Mythbusters forums from consitsant experts. THe myth as stated does not work at all.

Untill I can see documented evidence of a lethal ice bullet that leaves no balistic evidence, i will not be convinced.

--------------------
W.W.F.S.M.D?
But this image of Bush as some sort of Snidely Whiplash tying the fair maiden to the railroad tracks is beyond the pale. - Joe Bentley

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Der Induktionator
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Some scientists believe that the dinosaurs were killed by a chunk of ice crashing into the earth. In other words, a comet, although ice is a somewhat liberal description, as comets are sometimes called dirty snowballs or "icy mudballs" (ref: http://www.deepspace.ucsb.edu/ia/nineplanets/comets.html) and may contain a varying proportion of rock. It could have also been a asteroid, though the distinction between an asteroid and a comet seems to me to be a difference of degrees.

So maybe it depends on how big the ice bullet is and how fast it's moving. A high velocity tiny bullet from a rifle and a slow moving heavy rifled slug from a shotdun can both be fatal. So I could imagine ice bullet fired from a shotgun at close range could be fatal. And if not a shotgun, perhaps a handheld mortar like those used to fire signal flares. The recoil from firing such a heavy bullet would probably be extremely uncomfortable to the shooter, though.

I'm no detective, but I would expect there would be plenty of other evidence to support a conviction, even if the projectile or ice-knife couldn't be found.

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Posts: 44 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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