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Author Topic: Pledge of Allegiance Glurge
InfraPurple
The First USA Noel


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quote:
I was asked to send this on if I agree, or delete if I don't. I choose not to delete it.
Watch for a couple seconds........

Crying Eagle
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I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG,
OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
AND TO THE REPUBLIC,
FOR WHICH IT STANDS,
ONE NATION UNDER GOD,
INDIVISIBLE,
WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!
It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why
there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of
Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!
If you agree, pass this on, if not

Excuse me while I get glurgy myself....

I hate that this country has freedom of religion, so long as it's everyone elses.

I hate that this country has freedom of expression, so long as everyone like what is said.

I hate that this country has acceptance and tolerance, just so long as you're like everyone else.

Okay, I realize that I'm overgeneralizing here (Hey! I did say I was gonna glurge myself!) but damn, people! Live and let live. If it bothers people that 'Under God' is in the Pledge, respect that! You expect them to respect your rights....so do the same!

Anyways....

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Cuervorose
I Saw Three Shipments


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I'm one of the 14%. The fact that "God" is in the pledge doesn't bother me, I can respect it for the sentiment and historical value it has. The fact that 14% of the country apparently has no right to believe what they want bothers me.

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chillas
Coventry Mall Carol


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quote:
Originally posted by Cuervorose:
I'm one of the 14%. The fact that "God" is in the pledge doesn't bother me, I can respect it for the sentiment and historical value it has.

You mean you repect it for its reflection of the rampant jingoism of the McCarthy era during which those words were added? Interesting.

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Turner:
It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why
there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of
Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!
If you agree, pass this on, if not

I wonder if this glurger would hold the same opinion if the pledge was paying homage to god through islamic symbolism...or if, let's say, a memorial to September 11th victims included a red crescent... [Roll Eyes]

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Mouse
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Egads, this glurger needs to be taken out back and shot for the crying eagle icon alone.

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"I distrust who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
If you agree, pass this on, if not
If not ... then what?

What? For God's sake, tell me, what?

Will I be smoted? Arrested? Condemned to hell?

What will happen? I'm dying of curiosity!

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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Why is this eagle crying ?

It looks as if it had a flag stamped on its face and it hurts... [fish]

Yet, let's be honest: I can't make too much fun of this. In Switzerland, our Constitution begins with the words: "In the name of God Almighty, amen"... and our national anthem is basically a religious hymn. On the other hand, it doesn't keep us from being a very liberal country where religion has nothing, repeat, nothing to do with politics or legislation... and we only pledge allegiance to the Flag and Constitution when, being in the Army, we go on active duty (which is extremly rare).

I sometimes find it difficult to understand the Americans...

PS: I also find the word "indivisible" quite peculiar in a federal state.

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Desperate, but not serious.

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Open Mike Night
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Major D. Saster:

PS: I also find the word "indivisible" quite peculiar in a federal state.

Post Civil War sentiments. You can try to be divisible, but it won't work, by gum.

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Member: AAMAH

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Major D. Saster said:
In Switzerland, our Constitution begins with the words: "In the name of God Almighty, amen"... and our national anthem is basically a religious hymn.

Probably better than "God Save the Queen", at least...

Of course those fine words are responsible for the current rude health of the monarchy, and deep Christian faith of the British population as a whole, so who'd knock them?

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Communication Attempt
Jingle Bell Hock


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I believe it's because of the contradiction of a country that claims high and loud it's freedom of expression and worship and then you have those people who think immigrants should become english-speaking christians or go back to their own country.

Here's a small exercise.Replace the word God with any other deity's name while reciting the pledge of allegiance.After saying a couple of times you may understand why many non-christians don't like it.

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"I love God,he's so deliciously evil!" -Stewie,Family Guy

The fun thing about standards is that they come in so many varieties.

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HeartlessWretch
The Red and the Green Stamps


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I find the injunctions against allowing schoolchildren to say "under God" to be intolerant and loathsome, but that stupid crying eagle is enough to make me take a swing at my own side. Good Lord, people--religion isn't supposed to be glurgy, kthnxbai.
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chillas
Coventry Mall Carol


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quote:
Originally posted by HeartlessWretch:
I find the injunctions against allowing schoolchildren to say "under God" to be intolerant and loathsome

Which injunctions would those be, exactly?

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Come on, come on - spin a little tighter
Come on, come on - and the world's a little brighter


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DawnStorm
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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If the 'under God' part offended me, I just wouldn't say it. I'd jump from from 'one nation' to 'indivisible'. I guess that's not good enough for some pCms. [Roll Eyes]
What I mean is the pCm attitude of "you're gonna say 'under God' and like it!"


Dawn--one nation under Cthulhu; would that work? [Big Grin] --Storm

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Leashes?! We don't need no stinking leashes!!

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HeartlessWretch
The Red and the Green Stamps


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There's a guy who insists that it shouldn't be allowed in school--that was the whole big flap. That's fairly different from saying it's not mandatory. I mean, it's not like anyone in school is taking notice of whether or not an individual child is pledging "under God." Half the kids are saying that they're pledging legions to underdog anyway.
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Jon Up North
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
I find the injunctions against allowing schoolchildren to say "under God" to be intolerant and loathsome
Chillas wrote;
quote:
Which injunctions would those be, exactly?
Heartless responded
quote:
There's a guy who insists that it shouldn't be allowed in school
A, some guy.

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We're not insured for pickles.

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by HeartlessWretch:
There's a guy who insists that it shouldn't be allowed in school--that was the whole big flap. That's fairly different from saying it's not mandatory. I mean, it's not like anyone in school is taking notice of whether or not an individual child is pledging "under God." Half the kids are saying that they're pledging legions to underdog anyway.

Which guy would that be? All the court actions have been to remove mandatory participation in the Pledge of Allegiance for as long as it contains a reference to a specific religious belief.

ETA: And by mandatory, I refer to school-led recitation. Obviously, no one is denying a child the right to say the Pledge of their own accord and on their own time.

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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HeartlessWretch
The Red and the Green Stamps


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ETA: And by mandatory, I refer to school-led recitation. Obviously, no one is denying a child the right to say the Pledge of their own accord and on their own time.

That's the one I'm talking about. Sorry--I'm blanking on his name and don't particularly feel like going looking for it; it's not an issue of vast importantance to me. You've got a basic tradition in American schools of reciting the Pledge--it's part of the whole citizenship thing--but as long as it includes the words "under God," schools can't engage in the tradition.

No, there's nothing stopping an individual student from saying the pledge, but let's be honest... most of them aren't going to. It's a school thing that mostly is there to promote community, not something the kids do because it reflects their deep and heartfelt beliefs. The object of the legislation is to remove the mention entirely, and/or remove the pledge entirely. Why be disingenuous about it?

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Which guy would that be? All the court actions have been to remove mandatory participation in the Pledge of Allegiance for as long as it contains a reference to a specific religious belief.

Wrong. The Supreme Court decision that ruled that the Pledge cannot be mandatory was made in 1943, before "under God" was added. Mandatory recitation of the Pledge is unconstitutional regardless of religion.

pinqy

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Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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HeartlessWretch
The Red and the Green Stamps


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And yes, I'm sorry--not well-researched. I appreciate that. I was responding to the glurge--the stupid crying eagle--not the issue, and hadn't properly prepared for a debate on the subject. I was only posting to point out that, no matter what I agree with, that's an atrocious graphic.

The man I was thinking of was Newdow, and the case I'm thinking of involves three districts in Sacramento, where a judge named Lawrence Karlton, as of Friday, was expected "to sign a restraining order to stop the pledge from being recited in three local school districts" according to this, although he hadn't done so yet, which also asserts that Newdow would like to take it to the Supreme Court eventually.

Better? The upshot is that the pledge is, in fact, in danger of being banned in public schools because it invokes religious language, and Newdow himself says his "ultimate goal to get the Pledge of Allegiance to be for all Americans," which means he intends it to go beyond the schools.

EDIT: pinqy's right about it not being mandatory now--that's the puzzling part about this particular campaign. It's school-led, but people have been free to refuse for a long time. Jehovah's Witnesses, at least, are prohibited from pledging at all, and therefore don't do so. It doesn't end them up with demerits or lower grades.

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Which guy would that be? All the court actions have been to remove mandatory participation in the Pledge of Allegiance for as long as it contains a reference to a specific religious belief.

Wrong. The Supreme Court decision that ruled that the Pledge cannot be mandatory was made in 1943, before "under God" was added. Mandatory recitation of the Pledge is unconstitutional regardless of religion.
That's why I edited my post to reflect that by mandatory I was referring to the court cases that equate school-led recitations to defacto compulsory actions.

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by HeartlessWretch:
The man I was thinking of was Newdow, and the case I'm thinking of involves three districts in Sacramento, where a judge named Lawrence Karlton, as of Friday, was expected "to sign a restraining order to stop the pledge from being recited in three local school districts" according to this, although he hadn't done so yet, which also asserts that Newdow would like to take it to the Supreme Court eventually.

But he's not seeking a public ban on the pledge. He's seeking to end school sanctioned recitation.

From his view, if your elementary school class of 35 children is asked at the start of every day to stand and recite the pledge, led by the authority figures of the school, in essence it becomes compulsory for the children to state that there is a god.

You will be able to recite the pledge wherever and whenever you want. This injunction will simply stop the school from leading the children in doing so.

quote:
Better? The upshot is that the pledge is, in fact, in danger of being banned in public schools because it invokes religious language, and Newdow himself says his "ultimate goal to get the Pledge of Allegiance to be for all Americans," which means he intends it to go beyond the schools.
To me it means that he intends to revert the Pledge to it's original form before McCarthy style politics changed it into it's current, bastardized form.

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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HeartlessWretch
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Milhouse Van Houten:
But he's not seeking a public ban on the pledge. He's seeking to end school sanctioned recitation.

School-sanctioned recitation is the most common manner in which the pledge is recited. Basically, his argument is that the school can't give approval to students using religious language or allow it in a sanctioned structure. I understand the argument, but find it intolerant of general sensibilities (as suggested by the responses of the adults quoted in the article). If the recitation were mandatory, I'd be the first on board with it. Even if we were talking about something like having the chorus sing three out of five explicitly religious (Christian) songs at the Christmas concert, I'd side with it--chorus is a class in which people are graded, and participation is involved in that grade, and while I wholly approve of studying religious music and art, I don't think students should be asked to actually voice the words or risk their grade for lack of participation. But the pledge? It has no particular academic function, and doesn't generally occur in any graded context. It's a little citizenship ritual that kids engage in at the beginning of the day and promptly forget about. They also mock it and say it with the wrong words and do any number of odd things to it without any consequences. So going out of one's way to ban it just because the words "under God" (a non-denominational notion that doesn't support any particular religion) seems quite petty and an attack on the mention of any belief in God.

quote:
From his view, if your elementary school class of 35 children is asked at the start of every day to stand and recite the pledge, led by the authority figures of the school, in essence it becomes compulsory for the children to state that there is a god.
I understand his view, and think he's wrong.

quote:
You will be able to recite the pledge wherever and whenever you want. This injunction will simply stop the school from leading the children in doing so.
The point of the pledge is citizenship building and community building (though it doesn't really work as planned). Muttering it under one's breath as one passes by the flagpole outside doesn't really promote that.

quote:
To me it means that he intends to revert the Pledge to it's original form before McCarthy style politics changed it into it's current, bastardized form.
The problem is that the particular words added and which Newdow wants to remove are a reference to God, and this is of a piece with quite a lot of activism in this arena that religious people are finally getting fed up with after several years, as to their ears, it is the government saying that freedom of speech is absolute... unless, of course, you happen to mention God.
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jtelson
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
it is the government saying that freedom of speech is absolute... unless, of course, you happen to mention God.
Nothing here suggests that little Bobby or anyone else can't mention God. The complaint is that government paid, authority figures charged with the education of our youth shouldn't be leading their charges in a cheer about how our nation is subserviant to a diety.

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
The point of the pledge is citizenship building and community building
In West Virginia v Barnette Justice Jackson wrote:
quote:
If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us
Prescribing "proper citizenship" is not what schools should do. Recitation of set phrases is not teaching. Requiring those of different opinions to single themselves out is not "community building."

quote:
it is the government saying that freedom of speech is absolute... unless, of course, you happen to mention God.
Freedom of Speech does not mean you can compel people to listen. Freedom of Speech does not mean requiring people to say things they may or may not believe or forcing them to single themselves out as dissenters. You can mention God all you want. But you can't make me listen...you can't require me to attend religious meetings or to turn secular meetings I do attend into religious religious meetings.

pinqy

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HeartlessWretch
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quote:
Prescribing "proper citizenship" is not what schools should do. Recitation of set phrases is not teaching. Requiring those of different opinions to single themselves out is not "community building."
Actually, citizenship used to be one of the main functions of school--acclimating immigrants to American culture, teaching all kids basic civics, and so on. They've been used for all sorts of other weird social engineering projects, too, both of the right and the left. I'd love to have a place of pure academia--a nice, clean ivory tower where people learn Latin and study esoteric philosophy and argue about the merits of surrealism vs. abstract impressionism--and if dropping the pledge would help get us there, I'll toss the thing in the incinerator. Unfortunately, schools have moved in a lot of socializing directions over the years, and the culture has become accustomed to the idea that the school mainly exists for this purpose.

The issue of whether or not the pledge should be said at all is a different one from whether or not the words "under God" should be removed from it, I think. If schools aren't about citizenship, then no--don't say the pledge. But if it's okay to say it without "under God," then that's not really the issue under discussion. I brought it up mainly because that's what the pledge is doing there, so muttering it to oneself, hoping not to be noticed, is really not doing anything at all.

quote:
Freedom of Speech does not mean you can compel people to listen. Freedom of Speech does not mean requiring people to say things they may or may not believe or forcing them to single themselves out as dissenters. You can mention God all you want. But you can't make me listen...you can't require me to attend religious meetings or to turn secular meetings I do attend into religious religious meetings.
Well, you could always homeschool, if it suits your beliefs better. [Wink]

A mention of God does not a religious meeting make. God is pretty universal to all religions, though he's got a few aliases. A particular theology or code of conduct related to the existence of God... that would be arguably religious and would be throwing the state's weight behind some particular church/mosque/synagogue, and therefore establishing a state church, which the Constitution doesn't like very well. But if you look at old McGuffey readers, it's clear that school boards of the past haven't found mentions of God to be outside the realm of public school. In fact, they go a lot further than saying "under God," and I'm glad they're long-ditched (the Lord's Prayer is pretty darned religion-specific), but the point is that this is not some pristine form of atheist school life that we're fighting to return to after the evil age of McCarthy. This is the removal of something that people value for reasons that they by and large either disagree with or find incomprehensible and hostile. It's something without much precedent in American public schools. The glurge, dopey as it is, expresses this feeling.

And clearly, in schools, kids are required, repeatedly, to either go along or single themselves out as dissenters. Not saying "under God" when 86% of your classmates do is simple compared to, say, standing up and disagreeing with your teacher when she spends class explaining how to protest the war in Iraq (and yes, I saw a teacher do exactly that, with my own eyes). For myself, I'd be less cynical about the motives here if it weren't for the fact that authority figures are allowed to peddle every other belief under the sun in schools--whether it's related to the subject being taught or not--but two non-specific words with no special call to action included are targeted for a Supreme Court lawsuit, if a lawyer can swing it.

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by HeartlessWretch:
The issue of whether or not the pledge should be said at all is a different one from whether or not the words "under God" should be removed from it, I think. If schools aren't about citizenship, then no--don't say the pledge. But if it's okay to say it without "under God," then that's not really the issue under discussion. I brought it up mainly because that's what the pledge is doing there, so muttering it to oneself, hoping not to be noticed, is really not doing anything at all.

Could you please remind me where anybody suggested that the pledge must be muttered under one's breath so as not to be noticed?

The fact is when the absolute authority figure of the school, who is paid through public tax money, says "it's now time to say the pledge", it matters not that it's not 'legally' mandatory. That action has, in and of itself, made official recognition that there is a single deity to which we must pay homage. There is little that is more un-American in my view.

quote:
Well, you could always homeschool, if it suits your beliefs better. [Wink]
And christians may take their children out of public education and put them into religious education so that they may worship exactly as instructed. Heck, republicans have even made it so that my tax dollars pay for that private religious education anyways!

quote:
A mention of God does not a religious meeting make. God is pretty universal to all religions, though he's got a few aliases. A particular theology or code of conduct related to the existence of God... that would be arguably religious and would be throwing the state's weight behind some particular church/mosque/synagogue, and therefore establishing a state church, which the Constitution doesn't like very well.
A mention of god validates the Judeo-christian religions, while invalidating athiesm, hinduism, sikhism, buddhism...huh, I guess god isn't quite as universal as you might think.

quote:
But if you look at old McGuffey readers, it's clear that school boards of the past haven't found mentions of God to be outside the realm of public school. In fact, they go a lot further than saying "under God," and I'm glad they're long-ditched (the Lord's Prayer is pretty darned religion-specific), but the point is that this is not some pristine form of atheist school life that we're fighting to return to after the evil age of McCarthy. This is the removal of something that people value for reasons that they by and large either disagree with or find incomprehensible and hostile. It's something without much precedent in American public schools. The glurge, dopey as it is, expresses this feeling.
Without precendent? Uh, you yourself just made reference to the outlawing of school prayer.

If you'd really like to keep the pledge in school, make it known to your representatives that you want the pledge returned to its original form.

quote:
And clearly, in schools, kids are required, repeatedly, to either go along or single themselves out as dissenters.
Thank you for making my point for me.

quote:
Not saying "under God" when 86% of your classmates do is simple compared to, say, standing up and disagreeing with your teacher when she spends class explaining how to protest the war in Iraq (and yes, I saw a teacher do exactly that, with my own eyes).
Hello again, strawman. (Or is that a 'tu quoque'?)

quote:
For myself, I'd be less cynical about the motives here if it weren't for the fact that authority figures are allowed to peddle every other belief under the sun in schools--whether it's related to the subject being taught or not--but two non-specific words with no special call to action included are targeted for a Supreme Court lawsuit, if a lawyer can swing it.
Please, tell me in what school am I allowed to lead the class in humbling themselves before Vishnu? And if "under God" is non-specific with no special call to action, why have it in the pledge at all? Why not take it out completely? Why capitalize 'god'? Why not add an 's' to 'god'?

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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InfraPurple
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Milhouse Van Houten:
quote:
Originally posted by Turner:
It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why
there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of
Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!
If you agree, pass this on, if not

I wonder if this glurger would hold the same opinion if the pledge was paying homage to god through islamic symbolism...or if, let's say, a memorial to September 11th victims included a red crescent... [Roll Eyes]
Indeed. In fact, there's another glurge going around about the Flight 93 memorial, and that the trees being planted around it make a cresent? And in the fall, a red one...

quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
quote:
If you agree, pass this on, if not
If not ... then what?

What? For God's sake, tell me, what?

Will I be smoted? Arrested? Condemned to hell?

What will happen? I'm dying of curiosity!

Sorry, that's the end of the email...I assumed if not, then delete it.

Who said homeschooling? Have you looked at the homeschool cirriculums? All the ones we found are Christian based. We managed to get our kids into a school district sponsored homeschooling, and there's still religious overtones to it! :sigh:

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While I wasn't falling down or anything, gravity and I did have an interesting relationship for a short time. - Purple Iguana

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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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This matter has other aspects :

At least from my european point of view, pledging allegiance to anything or anybody is a very serious personal commitment no one is supposed to take or even understand unless one reaches adulthood.

So, having school children reciting the Pledge is a complete nonsense - here, it would be illegal.

Besides, a pledge of allegiance is a solemn oath that is supposed to last all life long (unless a higher authority allows you to take it back).

So, repeating it every morning like parrots is also a complete nonsense.

And last but not least, a pledge of allegiance includes that you might have to put your life at risk. It's OK for soldiers, policemen, judges and other people who have to defend the society they live in.

Where's the point in having school kids pledging away like that ? The words "under God", or "under Bush",or "under the Flying Spaghetti Monster" - whatever your deity is - aren't the real problem.

The real problem is having generations of future citizens pledging allegiance so many times that they eventually forget the very meaning of it. Once more, the flag-waving patriots shoot themselves in the foot.

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Desperate, but not serious.

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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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PS : maybe this is why the darn eagle cries : a bullet through a claw must be quite painful.

Or maybe it's just a regular, not-so-patriotic eagle, and it's crying because of all the bulls**t committed in its name.

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Desperate, but not serious.

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by HeartlessWretch:
Actually, citizenship used to be one of the main functions of school--acclimating immigrants to American culture, teaching all kids basic civics, and so on.

And that is fine and proper. It's not what I was arguing against. I was arguing against "prescribing proper citizenship." Teaching that only X are "good Americans," or (especially) "only those who believe Y" are good Americans, is not the proper function of schools. Rote recitation of loyalty oaths is not teaching citizenship or civics.

quote:
The issue of whether or not the pledge should be said at all is a different one from whether or not the words "under God" should be removed from it, I think. If schools aren't about citizenship, then no--don't say the pledge. But if it's okay to say it without "under God," then that's not really the issue under discussion. I brought it up mainly because that's what the pledge is doing there, so muttering it to oneself, hoping not to be noticed, is really not doing anything at all.
While I disagree with recitation of pledges in principle, the ideas of the pledge are


quote:
quote:
Freedom of Speech does not mean you can compel people to listen. Freedom of Speech does not mean requiring people to say things they may or may not believe or forcing them to single themselves out as dissenters. You can mention God all you want. But you can't make me listen...you can't require me to attend religious meetings or to turn secular meetings I do attend into religious religious meetings.
Well, you could always homeschool, if it suits your beliefs better.
In a country with a ban on official religion and that acknowledges freedom of religion, that shouldn’t be necessary.

quote:
A mention of God does not a religious meeting make. God is pretty universal to all religions, though he's got a few aliases. A particular theology or code of conduct related to the existence of God... that would be arguably religious and would be throwing the state's weight behind some particular church/mosque/synagogue, and therefore establishing a state church, which the Constitution doesn't like very well.
Simply favoring a belief in a god over non belief is to officially endorse a religious opinion, which is a constitutional no-no.

quote:
But if you look at old McGuffey readers, it's clear that school boards of the past haven't found mentions of God to be outside the realm of public school. In fact, they go a lot further than saying "under God," and I'm glad they're long-ditched (the Lord's Prayer is pretty darned religion-specific), but the point is that this is not some pristine form of atheist school life that we're fighting to return to after the evil age of McCarthy. This is the removal of something that people value for reasons that they by and large either disagree with or find incomprehensible and hostile. It's something without much precedent in American public schools. The glurge, dopey as it is, expresses this feeling.
Segregated schools were also something people valued. So strongly that several counties in Virginia closed all public schools rather than desegregate. The values and ideals of racial separation, as handed down by God, were also very dear to people. Note too that all the Supreme Court cases on prayer in schools were brought by Theists, not Atheists. What exactly is the point, and need, to include “under God?” What is the importance of the phrase?

quote:
And clearly, in schools, kids are required, repeatedly, to either go along or single themselves out as dissenters. Not saying "under God" when 86% of your classmates do is simple compared to, say, standing up and disagreeing with your teacher when she spends class explaining how to protest the war in Iraq (and yes, I saw a teacher do exactly that, with my own eyes).
I’m sorry, were the children required by the teacher to state their disagreement with the war? If not, then it’s not really comparable.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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EthanMitchell
Deck the Malls


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Oooh, lots to say, but I have to run. I just want to point out, since I think its germane:

The pledge of allegiance is a barely modified version of a communist pledge by Bellamy, the author of Looking Backward. He's usually called a socialist, but he's pretty rabid by the usual lights of that phrase. It was adopted by the US, god only knows why, and modified twice: first to put in the phrase "of the United States of America," lest schoolkids might secretly be pledging allegiance to some other flag, and then to add the phrase "under God," thus appealing to the Christians. Obviously. Any argument that this is some general, non-specific God, might even be a sort of atheist God, are clearly specious.

I think that when we are discussing rote memorization and recitation as a "civics lesson," it is useful to remember that these words have been used to pledge obedience to more than one ideology.

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zakor
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by chillas:
quote:
Originally posted by Cuervorose:
I'm one of the 14%. The fact that "God" is in the pledge doesn't bother me, I can respect it for the sentiment and historical value it has.

You mean you repect it for its reflection of the rampant jingoism of the McCarthy era during which those words were added? Interesting.
It sounds more to me like he doesn't understand that the "under god" was added in 1952...It seems like he thinks the "under god" is from 1776...
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zakor
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
To me it means that he intends to revert the Pledge to it's original form before McCarthy style politics changed it into it's current, bastardized form. The problem is that the particular words added and which Newdow wants to remove are a reference to God, and this is of a piece with quite a lot of activism in this arena that religious people are finally getting fed up with after several years, as to their ears, it is the government saying that freedom of speech is absolute... unless, of course, you happen to mention God. [/QB]
Add a nice little dose of IRONY when you think that the Religous Right in the USA is UPSET with GWB for allowing Islam to be part of the Iraqi Constitution.

Remember Ahmed Johnson, Young Iraqi, Your contry was founded in 2006 on Christian Ideals.

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by EthanMitchell:
The pledge of allegiance is a barely modified version of a communist pledge by Bellamy, the author of Looking Backward.

Francis Bellamy wrote the pledge, Edward Bellamy wrote Looking Backward.

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All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

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Turning_Turning
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Besides, birds can't cry.

They don't have any tear ducts.

Pretty eagle though. [Smile] (The Bald Eagle has got to be one of my favourite birds-only second from the Kiwi of course [Wink] )

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