quote:So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went, And took the fire with him, and a knife. And as they sojourned both of them together, Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father, Behold the preparations, fire and iron, But where the lamb, for this burnt-offering? Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps, And builded parapets and trenches there, And stretched forth the knife to slay his son. When lo! an Angel called him out of heaven; Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad, Neither do anything to him, thy son. Behold! Caught in a thicket by its horns, A Ram. Offer the Ram of Pride instead.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son, And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
Oh, I'm sorry, I meant anti-glurge. The poet was Wilfred Owen if you care.
-------------------- "Dear Lord, please protect this rockethouse and all who dwell within..." Posts: 1093 | From: Japan | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- "You see? The mysteries of the Universe are revealed when you break stuff." Coop from MegasXLR
"I distrust who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony Posts: 2246 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I thought Abram had already become 'Abraham' at that point.
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ASL: But the old man would not so, but slew his son, And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
I'm lost. What does the last stansa mean? If this Wilfred Owen character is referring literally to Abram, how did Abram slay half the seed of Europe? Or am I just terribly naiive about what antisemitics accuse the Jews of doing?
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who do not.
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" - The Brain Posts: 587 | From: Colorado | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
hautdesert
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by Grand Illusion:
quote:Originally posted by ASL: But the old man would not so, but slew his son, And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
I'm lost. What does the last stansa mean? If this Wilfred Owen character is referring literally to Abram, how did Abram slay half the seed of Europe? Or am I just terribly naiive about what antisemitics accuse the Jews of doing?
It's not accusing the Jews of anything. Abram is symbolic in this instance for the leaders of European nations who sent their children to war (presumably for the sake of their own pride) killing their sons, and half the young men of Europe. Or that's my take on it, anyway, since he's famed as an anti-war poet.
IP: Logged |
posted
'Abram' became 'Abraham' when God made his covenant with Israel, before Isaac was born. I would think that misnomer is deliberate. Abraham didn't kill Isaac - he spared him as instructed by the Angel.
So if Abraham had killed Isaac, as the poem says, there wouldn't be Judaism. I guess the poem's saying 'all western wars are caused by God' or something...
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by hoitoider: 'Abram' became 'Abraham' when God made his covenant with Israel, before Isaac was born. I would think that misnomer is deliberate. Abraham didn't kill Isaac - he spared him as instructed by the Angel.
So if Abraham had killed Isaac, as the poem says, there wouldn't be Judaism. I guess the poem's saying 'all western wars are caused by God' or something...
This has nothing to do with anti-semitism or attacks on religion or anything of the like. Let's think for a minute. Just in case you are not framiliar with the biblical incident upon which this is based:
God asks Abraham to slay his son as a sign of his devotion to God. Abraham goes about his duty without faltering, despite his love for his son. As he is about to slay his son in sacrifice, God sends an angel to stop Abraham at the last moment, saying instead to sacrifice a nearby ram. Abraham is of course relieved, and no doubt it the son, and they all live happily ever-after. Abraham's decendents, through Isaac in particular, go on to populate the Holy Land and the world.
But the poem deviates towards the end. It is important to note that the ram is called "the ram of pride." In essence, God is telling Abram (who symbolizes the political/military leaders of Europe) to spare his son (who symbolizes the youth of Europe) and instead sacrifice their pride. But Abram is not willing to sacrifice his pride, despite God's decree that he should sacrifice pride rather than his son.
It's drawing this as a parallel to WWI and the meaningless nature of it all. War was never necessary but for the sake of national pride and national interests. As a result of the old men's inabiltiy to follow God's will (I'd say namely "Thou shalt not kill"), the old men of Europe sacrifice their sons for the sake of their own pride. And so dies half the seed of Europe.
The youth of Europe end up being sacrificed not for God, but for the whims of the aged leaders of Europe.
I still don't know how some of you got an anti-semitic message from this...
-------------------- "Dear Lord, please protect this rockethouse and all who dwell within..." Posts: 1093 | From: Japan | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most clearly put, ASL. I happen to agree with the sentiment thus expressed. Reading the history of that awful conflict, I can't help but think how silly the whole thing was. There was almost mentality of "Hey, there's a war on! Choose up sides! Germany's shirts, France is skins!". As if it was some game to see who could out-macho the other.
ASL... as in age/sex/location? That takes me back...
Guy235 has entered Room: A______hotnakedchicks hotnstudly34: Any chicks in here? manlyman22: Hey, where r the chicks? _-mrmustang-_: asl everybody hot_cowboy69: who wants to see my pic? Guy235: any chicks in here?
Smart "My apologies if your name is Alex Simon Lancaster or something" Arse
-------------------- Smart "Tired of concocting clever middle names" Arse :D
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve" - Bilbo Baggins Posts: 152 | From: Vancouver, Canada | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Calling Abraham 'Abram' completely ignores the covenant and the whole reason for the Isaac test. That has to factor into the analysis somehow.
It's like saying Saul was an early evangelist when it was Paul - Saul was his 'former self' who persecuted and murdered Christians. If you wrote a poem about Paul and kept referring to him as Saul, you'd be making a point with that alone.
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
hautdesert
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by hoitoider: Calling Abraham 'Abram' completely ignores the covenant and the whole reason for the Isaac test. That has to factor into the analysis somehow.
It's like saying Saul was an early evangelist when it was Paul - Saul was his 'former self' who persecuted and murdered Christians. If you wrote a poem about Paul and kept referring to him as Saul, you'd be making a point with that alone.
Except in this case, using "Abraham" wouldn't work with the meter, would it. I submit that meter explains, completely, why "Abram" was chosen and not Abraham.
The poet isn't saying anything at all about religion or Judaism, as I tried to explain (and failed) and as ASL tried to explain (very clearly, I thought). He's making a comment about WWI and using a Biblical story that would resonate with his audience.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by hautdesert: Except in this case, using "Abraham" wouldn't work with the meter, would it. I submit that meter explains, completely, why "Abram" was chosen and not Abraham.
And 'Abram' doesn't work with biblical philosophy, does it? I submit that explains, completely, why the poem lacks depth. He could've written 'War sucks' and accomplished the same goal.
-------------------- No man has a right in America to treat any other man "tolerantly" for tolerance is the assumption of superiority. -Wendell L. Willkie Posts: 3833 | From: Virginia | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
hautdesert
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by hoitoider:
quote:Originally posted by hautdesert: Except in this case, using "Abraham" wouldn't work with the meter, would it. I submit that meter explains, completely, why "Abram" was chosen and not Abraham.
And 'Abram' doesn't work with biblical philosophy, does it?
But since the poem isn't about Biblical philosophy why should it be judged by its adherence to such a thing? Once again, the poet is not trying to say anything about religion, or Judaism, or the Bible, or biblical philosophy. He's using a story that pretty much everyone in his audience will have heard, and will know how it ended so that he can play on the expectations that knowledge of that story will produce in his readers. He's saying "maybe once God commanded the father of a race to kill his child, but in the end he said to kill a ram instead. The "fathers" of these warring nations have metaphorically refused to listen to God's command to kill the ram instead, and have sacrificed not only their own sons but nearly everyone else's as well."
Just because the poet makes use of the story to make his point doesn't mean he has to make the use you would make of it. Just because there are other aspects of the story, or other stories that come before and after this one, doesn't mean he has to use those other aspects or stories or their implications--he's used what has suited his purpose, which involved only the sacrifice of sons. And while I'm not a member of his fan club, and I find the poem somewhat preachy, this poem is a bit more specific than "war sucks." Writing just "war sucks" would not, in fact, have accomplished his goal.
As far as using Abraham being neccesarily a statement about Jews (upthread a bit), please don't forget that Christians consider themselves to be the heirs of Abraham as well. So do moslems, if I recall correctly. So using Abraham isn't neccesarily meant to point only to Jews--or even to Jews at all, perverse as that may seem.
IP: Logged |
posted
I'd have to say that Abram probably wasn't used just for the sake of meter. I'd say it's an additional intentional deviation from the biblical story. Abraham had a covenant with God. He did God's will. The Abram of the poem, however, does not. He kills his son despite God's will. There is no covenant here. The rulers of the "Christian" nations of Europe did not act out of concern for the greater good or the will of God, but rather they masked the true intentions in such things. All the while they were doing the exact opposite of what Christians should be doing (ug, I almost said what would jesus do, I feel so dirty). They were not acting in the interest of the people or of morality or of a higher being, but rather for their own base desires and selfish pride. But it was the youth who suffered jsut as, in the poem, it was Isaac who bore the immedeate affects of his Father's disobediance to God.
You might say that this disobediance effectively breaks the covenant that the "Christian" nations of Europe claim to have with God, through Abraham, and thus the reason for using the name Abram. The covenant is being declared null and void. Breach of contract on the part of sinful mortals, dont you know...
-------------------- "Dear Lord, please protect this rockethouse and all who dwell within..." Posts: 1093 | From: Japan | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
