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Author Topic: New Jack the Ripper?
GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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So what if some slavery continues? The amount of slavery has been reduced. And since it is frowned upon and illegal in many cases, those who are still enslaved have some possiblity or hope of that slavery ending.

--------------------
IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
How long has slavery being going on in primate evolutionary terms? How long have sexual transactions been going on in primate evolutionary terms. Sexual transactions for food or protection have been observed in baboon troupes. Slavery hasn't. Sexual transactions may be part of primate nature while slavery would appear to be an aberration. It is easier to eradicate an aberration than to eradicate part of primate nature (humans are primates).

First, one of the main problems in Evo-bio research has been the anthropomorphizing of the behavior observed, which leads to an inextricable pattern of circular reasoning. And, as you know, bonobos have far different sexual behaviors than do baboons, and other primates behave still differently. Nor do the exchanges of sex for things in primates always follow the lines of sex. And many groups of animals appear to enslave or use others (mainly insects, but also appears in higher orders as well). You can use evo-bio to justify just about any behavior, including using your fecal matter to decorate walls and the eating of your tasty, tasty babies.


quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
People trafficking continues. We've only removed the overt signs of it.

So, your view is that humans are and always will be nasty, brutish, and disgusting and that nothing can be done and that we shouldn't even try to modify our "behaviors" because it's just bound to fail?
If that's the case, why not just randomly kill whomever you dislike and throw the children out to raise themselves? If they aren't going to change, why bother?

--------------------
So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
Ryda, you seem to be an idealist. Sorry to burst your bubble, but we aren't talking doms/subs here. We talking prostitution. And the equation is, for the main part male=buyer, female=seller (there are relatively few males selling sex to women). Like it or not, that's how it works and it is linked to human sexual nature.

Women are equally capable of exploiting men for the money. I've seen it (it's called gold digging) and I've found myself in situations where I had the opportunity to exploit a desperate guy and fleece him of his money in return for sex. So I really don't care how tired you are of hearing that line - I've had first hand experience of that situation (for the record, I didn't do it).



I don't think "gold-digging" is something which is solely a female pursuit, really. Nor do I think that it is anything like as prevalent in society as prostitution. Nor indeed, as harmful. Moreover, whether or not women are equally capable of exploiting men for money, that doesn't make prostitution "not exploitation."

There probably, as I've said, are some prostitutes who fit the mould you appear to have cast on them, women and men who have made the decision to go into prostitution freely and of their own volition, as a good way to earn money.

But they are far outnumbered by the desperate, generally women and men operating on the absolute margins of society, forced by circumstances such as poverty or addiction into the industry, victims of childhood sexual abuse or, in more and more instances in the UK, just plain slaves. You seem to be ignoring these people, who I would imagine far outweigh the people operating your "Jamie Lee Curtis in that movie Trading Places" model of prostitution.

Nor are the men who visit prostitutes invariably "scum;" nor has anyone said that they are. But if you look at the numbers of sex workers physically and sexually assaulted every year(You need to go to a library or educational establishment to be able to access this link for free, but it claims that 1 in 5 of all sexual assaults which necessitate hospital treatments are of sex workers) it's clear that sex workers, as a class, are in need of more protection than they are currently getting from the police and judiciary, and one reason for that is that many of their clientele are violent and aggressive men who pose a clear threat. asserting, as you have, that not all men who visit prostitutes are scum seems to ignore the many who are quite unpleasant characters.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
So, your view is that humans are and always will be nasty, brutish, and disgusting and that nothing can be done and that we shouldn't even try to modify our "behaviors" because it's just bound to fail?

Except for the golddiggers, of course. Those bitches must be stopped.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
So, your view is that humans are and always will be nasty, brutish, and disgusting and that nothing can be done and that we shouldn't even try to modify our "behaviors" because it's just bound to fail?

Except for the golddiggers, of course. Those bitches must be stopped.
Why is it that it seems to be the same arguement, century after century, huh?
From the "Salve Deus Rex Judorum:" Aemilia Lanyer, published in the same year as the King James Bible (1611): A bit essentialist, but, darn it....

Lines 795-830:

And then to lay the fault on Patience backe,
That we (poore women) must endure it all;
We know right well he did discretion lacke,
Beeing not perswaded thereunto at all;
If Eve did erre, it was for knowledge sake,
The fruit beeing faire perswaded him to fall:
No subtill Serpents falshood did betray him,
If he would eate it, who had powre to stay him?


Not Eve, whose fault was onely too much love,
Which made her give this present to her Deare,
That what shee tasted, he likewise might prove,
Whereby his knowledge might become more cleare;
He never sought her weakenesse to reprove,
With those sharpe words, which he of God did heare:
Yet Men will boast of Knowledge, which he tooke
From Eves faire hand, as from a learned Booke.

If any Evill did in her remaine,
Beeing made of him, he was the ground of all;
If one of many Worlds could lay a staine
Upon our Sexe, and worke so great a fall
To wretched Man, by Satans subtill traine;
What will so fowle a fault amongst you all?
Her weakenesse did the Serpents words obay;
But you in malice Gods deare Sonne betray.

Whom, if unjustly you condemne to die,
Her sinne was small, to what you doe commit;
All mortall sinnes that doe for vengeance crie,
Are not to be compared unto it:
If many worlds would altogether trie,
By all their sinnes the wrath of God to get;
This sinne of yours, surmounts them all as farre
As doth the Sunne, another little starre.

Then let us have our Libertie againe,
And challendge to your selves no Sov'raigntie;
You came not in the world without our paine,
Make that a barre against your crueltie;
Your fault beeing greater, why should you disdaine
Our beeing your equals, free from tyranny?
If one weake woman simply did offend,
This sinne of yours, hath no excuse, nor end.

--------------------
So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
Come into the business world and look at the number of broken families caused by gold-digging. Forget the high profile cases, it goes on all around us. Money is a powerful aphrodisiac and there have been plenty of bosses who thought they were having a discreet affair with their assistant, only to end up paying her more and more.

I don't think it's the women to blame for the broken marriage. It was the men who decided to break their vows.

My exH felt he was entitled to a younger, supposedly prettier, and less care worn woman. Yes, the Skanosaur knew he was married, which was wrong on her part, but in the end, it was he who decided the grass was greener.

She didn't break us up. He decided to end the marriage.

And what is it with this "men need sex" crap anyhow? All people like sex. I don't think one gender, as a whole, needs it any more than the other.

That is part of the problem, actually, as I see it. A woman who enjoys sex and is upfront about it is seen, by many people, as just as morally suspect as one who takes money for it. That's the basis for a lot of on-line porn promos (These hot *****es really want it! ).

The one advantage I will say that women have in this regard is that it is more socially exceptable for a woman to admit using a vibrator than a man using a blow up doll. On the other hand a vibrator doesn't have that facade of another person there.

I really have very little patience for johns. I park my car in an area near the university that my friends and I have taken to calling "H" lot. Many of the men looking for prostitues automatically assume that any woman walking in the area is interested. I have been followed to my car several times. This assumption that they are entitled to sex, and if they don't find someone selling it, they are entitled to it from anyone else who happens to be around, is truly appalling. I have had my car blocked in by someone who would not take no for an answer. Fortunately, I had my cell phone with me that day.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
The one advantage I will say that women have in this regard is that it is more socially exceptable for a woman to admit using a vibrator than a man using a blow up doll. On the other hand a vibrator doesn't have that facade of another person there.

Well, you can get male vibrators (NFBSK). I consider myself a liberated male, and they just look icky to me. I just could never picture myself using something like that. Maybe it really is just the stigma of a man using something like that seeming to be a sad, lonely pervert, but I just can't picture something like that and me being in the same room together.

I'd be lying if I said that the names weren't funny, though. "Handy Vagina". "Porta Muff". "Turbo Passion Juicer"...

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Hans Off
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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There is even a talking one!

I might have to buy it just to see what it says...

(I wonder if it is lip synched?)

--------------------
"British English speakers point to Americans adding more syllables so that they can make even more noise without actually saying anything." Llewtrah


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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Yeah, that's why...

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm hoping it talks about cars...

(edit) Yes, it does appear that the comment I heard that Stephens had just confessed was wrong. Somebody at work said that somebody on the phone had just heard it on the news. If only there was a handy phrase or acronym for that sort of unreliable information at several removes.

(edit again) I just realised that I've accidentally invented a talking vagina with the voice of Jeremy Clarkson. Aaarrgh!

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:

But they are far outnumbered by the desperate, generally women and men operating on the absolute margins of society, forced by circumstances such as poverty or addiction into the industry, victims of childhood sexual abuse or, in more and more instances in the UK, just plain slaves.

I've heard this suggestion in the media, but also recall reading an illuminating article by Rod Liddle a while back in which he (apparently systematically) listed all of the then recent high profile "east european sex slaves liberated" stories, and noted that in not one case was there any subsequent prosecution for false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc. It appears that the foreign women were not in the UK, or carrying on their business, involuntarily.

I would hope that Mr Liddle's analysis is correct, but haven't seen any hard information. Are there any cites to support the slavery contention, Dara?

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
I'm hoping it talks about cars...

I thought it was suppost to be baseball.... [fish]

--------------------
And now for something completely different...

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Llewtrah
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
Come into the business world and look at the number of broken families caused by gold-digging. Forget the high profile cases, it goes on all around us. Money is a powerful aphrodisiac and there have been plenty of bosses who thought they were having a discreet affair with their assistant, only to end up paying her more and more.

I don't think it's the women to blame for the broken marriage. It was the men who decided to break their vows.

You may not think it's the women to blame, but maybe you've not seen a woman go all out to seduce a guy, to the point of laying false evidence so his wife suspected him of an affair when there was no affair. Not nice.

However this thread is rapidly being subverted into the same old gender wars thread with the usual culprits beating the "equitable sexual relationships" drums.

The suspect currently being questioned describes himself as "sad and lonely" which seems to be the stereotype of a punter. Last night the news stations reported that police were also searching his mother's house.

--------------------
Messybeast Cat Resource Archive
Llewtrah's Soapbox

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:

But they are far outnumbered by the desperate, generally women and men operating on the absolute margins of society, forced by circumstances such as poverty or addiction into the industry, victims of childhood sexual abuse or, in more and more instances in the UK, just plain slaves.

I've heard this suggestion in the media, but also recall reading an illuminating article by Rod Liddle a while back in which he (apparently systematically) listed all of the then recent high profile "east european sex slaves liberated" stories, and noted that in not one case was there any subsequent prosecution for false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc. It appears that the foreign women were not in the UK, or carrying on their business, involuntarily.

I would hope that Mr Liddle's analysis is correct, but haven't seen any hard information. Are there any cites to support the slavery contention, Dara?

Here is just one instance of a conviction for human trafficking in the UK

Here's another.

It's difficult to quantify the extent of the sex slave trade, though, to be fair. By the very nature of its illegality and disreputability, human trafficking is not something that can be easily measured. This Home Office consultation document estimates that in a three-month period in 1998, between 142 and 1420 women were trafficked into the UK for the purposes of prostitution, which is an essentially worthless statistic because of its vagueness and because it is somewhat dated.

However, presumably Liddle's article pre-dates the launch of Operation Pentameter earlier this year. Prior to this, which has adopted a victim-led approach, sex workers in this country illegally were summarily deported, and the police have used anti-trafficking laws as another tool in the war against immigration, rather than as a means to protect women from exploitation. This is one reason why many prosecutions for human trafficking haven't been pursued, over and above the power that traffickers have over their victims; they are normally part of large organised crime networks in victims' home countries, etc.

The UK Human Trafficking Centre, which opened in October 2006, aims to address that imbalance to some extent.

In summary, there aren't any real statistical abstracts which can show empirically the extent of the human trafficking problem in the UK; it probably isn't as bad in the UK as it is in mainland Europe, simply because smuggling across land borders is easier than sea borders; but it certainly is a problem in the larger cities.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:

However this thread is rapidly being subverted into the same old gender wars thread with the usual culprits beating the "equitable sexual relationships" drums.



Er, Llewtrah, the person who has subverted this thread into the "same old gender wars thread" is you, nobody else. You are, after all, the person who introduced "gold-digging" into the debate, and continue to use it as evidence for I'm not sure what. The beam in your own eye, and all that.

There's been a second arrest, incidentally.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Thank you for the links, Dara. It seems mind-boggling, not to mention horrifying, that such eighteenth-century practices seem to be enjoying a resurgence.
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
Thank you for the links, Dara. It seems mind-boggling, not to mention horrifying, that such eighteenth-century practices seem to be enjoying a resurgence.

It is, rather. I suppose it's an inevitable consequence of globablisation, though not a pleasant one. As the world gets smaller, the opportunities for exploitation become greater.

I think we prefer the idea of the 'happy hooker,' really. If we accept that most of the women involved in prostitution are there because they have very little alternative, it forces us to confront ugly aspects of our own society. Julia Roberts has a lot to answer for, to be honest.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
Julia Roberts has a lot to answer for, to be honest.

Well, according to the Daily Mail, it is still Kate Moss' fault.

Or possibly the victims', or that of readers of the Guardian. I can't be sure:

quote:
That doesn't make it justifiable homicide, but in the scheme of things the deaths of these five women is no great loss.


They weren't going to discover a cure for cancer or embark on missionary work in Darfur. The only kind of missionary position they undertook was in the back seat of a car.

...

Frankly, I'm tired of the lame excuses about how they all fell victim to ruthless pimps who plied them with drugs. These women were on the streets because they wanted to be.



But:

quote:
This wasn't a case of women going on the game to put bread on the table, or to look after their "babies". That's what the welfare state is for. They did it for drugs.


The gormless Guardianistas simply refuse to confront this blindingly obvious reality. They would rather deify celebrity druggies such as Kate Moss and Will Self than face the truth that hard drugs wreck lives.



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Llewtrah
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:

However this thread is rapidly being subverted into the same old gender wars thread with the usual culprits beating the "equitable sexual relationships" drums.



Er, Llewtrah, the person who has subverted this thread into the "same old gender wars thread" is you, nobody else. You are, after all, the person who introduced "gold-digging" into the debate, and continue to use it as evidence for I'm not sure what. The beam in your own eye, and all that.

There's been a second arrest, incidentally.

I chose to provide balance i.e. that the oft-overlooked point that women can also exploit men (the thread having gone down the route of exploitation of women and conveniently ignoring the fact that it isn't all one way). That gets the usual predicatable Ryda-knee-jerk reaction as obviously women are terribly oppressed and exploited and it's simply not to be admitted that it can - and does - happen the other way round.

quote:
Police have said a 48-year-old man has been arrested in connection with the murders of five women in Suffolk.
He was arrested on suspicion of murdering Gemma Adams, Anneli Alderton, Tania Nicol, Paula Clennell and Annette Nicholls who worked as prostitutes.



--------------------
Messybeast Cat Resource Archive
Llewtrah's Soapbox

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:

However this thread is rapidly being subverted into the same old gender wars thread with the usual culprits beating the "equitable sexual relationships" drums.



Er, Llewtrah, the person who has subverted this thread into the "same old gender wars thread" is you, nobody else. You are, after all, the person who introduced "gold-digging" into the debate, and continue to use it as evidence for I'm not sure what. The beam in your own eye, and all that.

There's been a second arrest, incidentally.

I chose to provide balance i.e. that the oft-overlooked point that women can also exploit men (the thread having gone down the route of exploitation of women and conveniently ignoring the fact that it isn't all one way). That gets the usual predicatable Ryda-knee-jerk reaction as obviously women are terribly oppressed and exploited and it's simply not to be admitted that it can - and does - happen the other way round.

Well, what you call "providing balance" I call "bringing up an entirely unrelated issue." In the first instance, you haven't shown that what you call "gold-digging" is overwhelmingly an issue of women exploiting men, in the second instance you haven't explained what that has to do with whether or not prostitution involves the exploitation of its practitioners.

I'll repeat it: the person who has derailed this thread into, in your words, "the same old gender wars thread" is you, with your introduction of 'gold-digging' into the argument. You can't simultaneously do that, then complain that it's happened. It's illogical and hypocritical.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
Julia Roberts has a lot to answer for, to be honest.

Well, according to the Daily Mail, it is still Kate Moss' fault.

Or possibly the victims', or that of readers of the Guardian. I can't be sure:

I wonder if Littlejohn will ever do something useful...

--------------------
I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!

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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:

However this thread is rapidly being subverted into the same old gender wars thread with the usual culprits beating the "equitable sexual relationships" drums.



Er, Llewtrah, the person who has subverted this thread into the "same old gender wars thread" is you, nobody else. You are, after all, the person who introduced "gold-digging" into the debate, and continue to use it as evidence for I'm not sure what. The beam in your own eye, and all that.

There's been a second arrest, incidentally.

I chose to provide balance i.e. that the oft-overlooked point that women can also exploit men (the thread having gone down the route of exploitation of women and conveniently ignoring the fact that it isn't all one way). That gets the usual predicatable Ryda-knee-jerk reaction as obviously women are terribly oppressed and exploited and it's simply not to be admitted that it can - and does - happen the other way round.

Well, what you call "providing balance" I call "bringing up an entirely unrelated issue." In the first instance, you haven't shown that what you call "gold-digging" is overwhelmingly an issue of women exploiting men, in the second instance you haven't explained what that has to do with whether or not prostitution involves the exploitation of its practitioners.

I'll repeat it: the person who has derailed this thread into, in your words, "the same old gender wars thread" is you, with your introduction of 'gold-digging' into the argument. You can't simultaneously do that, then complain that it's happened. It's illogical and hypocritical.

Maybe we should pair off the golddigging women with the sad and lonely men. Then everyone would be happy.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tarquin Farquart:
quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
Julia Roberts has a lot to answer for, to be honest.

Well, according to the Daily Mail, it is still Kate Moss' fault.

Or possibly the victims', or that of readers of the Guardian. I can't be sure:

I wonder if Littlejohn will ever do something useful...
Well one day he'll be fertiliser.

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Dara bhur gCara
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To get back to the subject at hand; much as I deplore speculation about ongoing criminal investigations, I'm going to indulge in some. This Stephens fella reminds me of someone like that JonBenet Ramsay suspect arrested in Thailand, who turns out to have nothing to do with it and was just a strange Walter Mitty character.

On the one hand, I hope that is the case, because I think that the media coverage of his arrest could be seen to be prejudicial to any trial. On the other hand, it does make the behaviour of the media even more reprehensible. If Stephens is innocent, it's hardly likely he'll be able to go on with the rest of his life, is it?

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Yes, we were speculating that the police may have arrested him just to shut him up for the time being and stop him talking to any more reporters.

There aren't many details of the second arrest yet, except that the guy lived in London Road, which is quite close to the red light area where the women were last seen.

Criticism over suspect interview

quote:
The BBC has been criticised by media lawyers for broadcasting an interview with a man arrested in connection with the Suffolk murders.

They argued that the move could be prejudicial if Tom Stephens was charged and the case went to trial.

Good of the BBC to report that, I suppose. For some reason they don't mention the Sunday Mirror interview which must be equally prejudicial. (edit - Sorry, they do mention it but only in passing. Maybe it makes a difference that it came before the arrest.) (another edit - haha, I just noticed that two links below the "criticism" link on the front page, the link to the interview is still there.)
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VeebleFetzer
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
I just realised that I've accidentally invented a talking vagina with the voice of Jeremy Clarkson. Aaarrgh!

Such a thing already exists, Richard. It's called Jeremy Clarkson.

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Llewtrah
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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:

However this thread is rapidly being subverted into the same old gender wars thread with the usual culprits beating the "equitable sexual relationships" drums.



Er, Llewtrah, the person who has subverted this thread into the "same old gender wars thread" is you, nobody else. You are, after all, the person who introduced "gold-digging" into the debate, and continue to use it as evidence for I'm not sure what. The beam in your own eye, and all that.

There's been a second arrest, incidentally.

I chose to provide balance i.e. that the oft-overlooked point that women can also exploit men (the thread having gone down the route of exploitation of women and conveniently ignoring the fact that it isn't all one way). That gets the usual predicatable Ryda-knee-jerk reaction as obviously women are terribly oppressed and exploited and it's simply not to be admitted that it can - and does - happen the other way round.

Well, what you call "providing balance" I call "bringing up an entirely unrelated issue." In the first instance, you haven't shown that what you call "gold-digging" is overwhelmingly an issue of women exploiting men, in the second instance you haven't explained what that has to do with whether or not prostitution involves the exploitation of its practitioners.

I'll repeat it: the person who has derailed this thread into, in your words, "the same old gender wars thread" is you, with your introduction of 'gold-digging' into the argument. You can't simultaneously do that, then complain that it's happened. It's illogical and hypocritical.

You are still wrong Dara. I have stated - and will state again - that exploitation is not all one-way. While these girls were at the rough end of prostitution, it is not exclusively men who exploit women. The argument that all women in the sex trade are exploited is a generalisation. It is possible for women to exploit men, whether you choose to believe it or not.

I raised a valid point in relation to sexual exploitation i.e. it is not all one-way, but it evidently and predictably did not fit into Ryda's world-view and hence was attacked. I provided gold-digging as an example though you have chosen to take it as the be-all-and-end-all on which to base your criticisms, rather than my observation that sex work is not invariably exploitation of the person receiving the cash in return for sexual services.

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz, quoting Richard Littlejohn:

quote:

The gormless Guardianistas simply refuse to confront this blindingly obvious reality. They would rather deify celebrity druggies such as Kate Moss and Will Self than face the truth that hard drugs wreck lives.


Hmm, obviously Mr Littlejohn is still somewhat troubled by his radio exhange with Will Self regarding his novel To Hell in a Handcart.
quote:
The Will Self incident

On a 2001 edition of Nicky Campbell's show on BBC Radio Five Live, a heated discussion took place between Littlejohn and fellow guest Will Self. Both were on the show to promote their recently published novels (Littlejohn's To Hell in a Handcart and Self's How The Dead Live).

Campbell cited David Aaronovitch's description of Littlejohn's novel as a "400-page recruiting pamphlet for the BNP". Littlejohn responded (referring to Aaronovitch): "What else do you expect from an overgrown student union leader who used to be a member of the Communist Party?" he later boasted he would include the quote on the cover of the book when it was reprinted. However, due to very poor sales this reprinting has not taken place.

Self then stated that he agreed with Aaronovitch's comments, and that he had read half of Littlejohn's book, which he described as "a kind of Tom Sharpe for the far right". Littlejohn said that he should "read the book in its totality", to which Self retorted "Why?... Does it turn into Tolstoy at page 205?"

Littlejohn's often-quoted response to this was "No it doesn't turn into Tolstoy. I don't set out to be Tolstoy. It is a much more complex book than that."

Recalling the incident some time later, Self denounced Littlejohn as a bully and a coward, adding: "Ask anyone who's gay: they find him repugnant."



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Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Llewtrah
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
Yes, we were speculating that the police may have arrested him just to shut him up for the time being and stop him talking to any more reporters.

There aren't many details of the second arrest yet, except that the guy lived in London Road, which is quite close to the red light area where the women were last seen.

Criticism over suspect interview

quote:
The BBC has been criticised by media lawyers for broadcasting an interview with a man arrested in connection with the Suffolk murders.

They argued that the move could be prejudicial if Tom Stephens was charged and the case went to trial.

Good of the BBC to report that, I suppose. For some reason they don't mention the Sunday Mirror interview which must be equally prejudicial. (edit - Sorry, they do mention it but only in passing. Maybe it makes a difference that it came before the arrest.) (another edit - haha, I just noticed that two links below the "criticism" link on the front page, the link to the interview is still there.)
Stephens does seem to be an attention seeker, but even this could serve a purpose. His arrest and all the attendant publicity may have provided a diversion while they homed in on another suspect.

Often when there are murders, there will be people wanting to confess. There was a recent false confession on the Jon-Benet case. I'm not sure what they get out of it other than becoming the centre of attention for a while.

There's still the possibility of copycat killings with both suspects being guilty of some, but not all, the killings.

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
]You are still wrong Dara. I have stated - and will state again - that exploitation is not all one-way. While these girls were at the rough end of prostitution, it is not exclusively men who exploit women. The argument that all women in the sex trade are exploited is a generalisation. It is possible for women to exploit men, whether you choose to believe it or not.



Who is saying that all women in the sex trade are exploited? I've repeatedly conceded that there are likely some women in the sex trade who are there voluntarily, and have made an informed decision to enter into that line of work because of the hours, or the money, or simply they enjoy the sex work. However, these are, in my experience, outnumbered by the desperate and the marginalised. Who goes to their careers adviser at school and tells them that they want to be a prostitute, after all?

Of course it's possible for women to exploit men, but it's not something that I really see as relevant to the debate, unless your argument is that sex workers are exploiting their punters, which is not one with which I agree.

quote:
I raised a valid point in relation to sexual exploitation i.e. it is not all one-way, but it evidently and predictably did not fit into Ryda's world-view and hence was attacked. I provided gold-digging as an example though you have chosen to take it as the be-all-and-end-all on which to base your criticisms, rather than my observation that sex work is not invariably exploitation of the person receiving the cash in return for sexual services.
Yet again, no-one is arguing that sex work is invariably exploitation of the sex worker. You're mischaracterising their arguments, which is rather distasteful. However, it does seem to be something that's very prevalent in the industry; certainly more prevalent than the converse.

Moreover, you still need to explain the relationship between prostitution and 'gold-digging.' For you to use it as an example of sexual exploitation, you'd need to be able to show that it is sexual exploitation of the wealthy partner by the desired partner. It's exploitation of some kind, I suppose, but I don't believe it's a universally woman exploiting man thing, nor do I believe there is any relationship between "gold-digging" and sex work.

Please explain the relevance.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Richard W
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For what it's worth, here's the quote from Jackie, the former Ipswich prostitute, again.

'I've never done anything for less than 15. You can get a bag of heroin for 15'

quote:
Most of the time, she says, she would come out every night. A good night would mean she'd take home between 40 and 80, representing two punters wanting full sex and paying full price. On a bad night there would be between 15 and 20 women working, and the customers were scarce or, worse, willing to exploit the women's desperation.

"The refugees - I shouldn't say this - but the refugees were the worst. They would offer you 5. Especially at this time of year, when it's freezing and the men know you need the money. But I've never done anything for less than 15. You can get a bag [of heroin] for 15."

Might not be relevant to sex workers in general, but it certainly seems relevant to the women who are working on the streets in the Ipswich red-light district, since it's actually about them. Is it a reasonable assumption that Ipswich is similar to other towns where street prostitution occurs?
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Cinnamon
The First USA Noel


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Not much of an addition to the discussion, but just for interest really - Belle de Jour's take on the Ipswich murders, from her blog.

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Llewtrah
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And coincidentally this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/6192981.stm

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Llewtrah
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Dara - As I stated, I used it as an example that women can exploit men. There are also escort agencies that can name their own prices for women who will pass as "partners" at functions and who will then have sex (the sex being a separately negotiable non-taxed "extra" thereby keeping the escort agency on the right side of the law). Since "classy" (attractive, well spoken, well educated) escorts are a limited supply, these can exploit men financially. Those men are not going to pick up a drug-addicted streetwalker and take her to a dinner party before going home. Some men will even pay over the odds so they can have the same escort for each occasion because they feel they have some sort of "relationships". Who is exploiting whom?

The whole debate was headed down the route of men always exploiting women. That is its relevance to the debate - (s)exploitation is not always of women but men. I have previously explained that and if you choose to ignore it that's up to you.

I'm waiting for the "all sex is prostitution" argument to appear in the same way that it did on the Guardian's CiF page.

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Andrew of Ware, England
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A second man has been arrested in connection with the murders.

BBC Story

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Andrew, Ware, England

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