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Author Topic: New Jack the Ripper?
Llewtrah
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Actually Dara, having seen, met and even worked with the many exceptions to the media stereotypes of both clients and sex workers I oppose generalisations and the taking for granted of stereotypes. I neither condemn nor commend clients or sex workers.

For my part, I accept that both exist and that their reasons for doing what they do are many, varied and complex and not the simplistic reasons cited by many media sources. Hence my opposition to the description of clients of escort agencies as sadsacks who need to look within themselves (since I personally know some of those clients of sex workers and I know of their underlying conditions that make them unable to form conventional sexual relationships and, frankly, I object to seeing such people dismissed as some sort of sad loser).

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Llewtrah:

O.K. I really, really think you need to go back and look at how much your arguments are wavering.


First, you said that escorts exploit men:
There are also escort agencies that can name their own prices for women who will pass as "partners" at functions and who will then have sex (the sex being a separately negotiable non-taxed "extra" thereby keeping the escort agency on the right side of the law). Since "classy" (attractive, well spoken, well educated) escorts are a limited supply, these can exploit men financially.

Now, you say that the men who use escorts are incapable of any other interaction, due to underlying conditions, and, therefore must use escorts.

Which would mean that the escorts are providing a service much like, say, a nursemaid or babysitter, not that they are taking advantage of those poor, poor men.

Which one is it? Are the escorts fleecing guys, or do guys actually require their services?

Now, if indeed, the people with Asberger's or like conditions are incapable of changing their disordered behavior, and they can find a person willing to fulfill social and sexual desires for a price...fine. Whatever. Same thing with disabled folk who can't find a partner. Totally valid thing, so long as complete consent is given and the client respects both the provider and the provider's bountries.


However, I doubt the majority of men who hire escorts/prostitutes are incapable of learning or changing their behaviors. They, therefore, get no sort of a pass, whatsoever.


What I am seeing from you, Llewtrah, is a very mysoginistic perspective based on essentialist beliefs, and it's a perspective which you aren't even bothering to back up.

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
Actually Dara, having seen, met and even worked with the many exceptions to the media stereotypes of both clients and sex workers I oppose generalisations and the taking for granted of stereotypes. I neither condemn nor commend clients or sex workers.



Quite right, but don't you see how that argument is weakened by your own use of gender stereotypes to advance it? It's somewhat contradictory to use stereotyping to illustrate your objection to stereotyping, don't you think?

Moreover, why are you objecting to the condemnation of clients by the likes of Ryda when you so clearly condemn "gold-diggers?" Either people are entitled to condemn the behaviour of others or they're not.

quote:
For my part, I accept that both exist and that their reasons for doing what they do are many, varied and complex and not the simplistic reasons cited by many media sources. Hence my opposition to the description of clients of escort agencies as sadsacks who need to look within themselves (since I personally know some of those clients of sex workers and I know of their underlying conditions that make them unable to form conventional sexual relationships and, frankly, I object to seeing such people dismissed as some sort of sad loser).
One of the phrases in common currency on this board, and one which has become something of a truism or cliche is "the plural of anecdote is not data." But, you know, like many cliches, it's become a cliche because it's true.

How do you know that the people that you know aren't the only regular users of sex workers that aren't sad losers, for example? If that's the case, then are they statistically significant when we look at how many people use sex workers on a regular or occasional basis?

Similarly, while I'm sure, as I've said, some sex workers have made an informed and empowered decision to go into the trade because of the hours or money or they just like the sex, they are far outweighed by the desperate and the marginalised or the slaves. Like I said earlier, who tells their careers adviser they want to sell themselves?

In your estimation, what percentage of the approximately 80,000 women involved in prostitution in the UK have made an empowered and informed decision to enter the industry? How many of them are addicted to drugs? How many of them are the victims of trafficking? How many of them are survivors of rape or childhood sexual abuse? How many of them are dependent in some way on violent pimps? How many of them are in hock to what are euphemistically called 'doorstep lenders?'

For all that prostitution has existed in many forms for about as long as history has, does that mean we should turn a blind eye to the horrendous abuses associated with it? Or that we shouldn't harshly judge those men whose use of prostitutes cause the cycle of abuse and violence to continue?

Do we think that prostitution is a desirable phenomenon, or an obstacle to gender equality? Do we even care?

I don't pretend to have all the answers to these questions. But I acknowledge that they exist. You seem to discount them utterly.

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Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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Dara, I nominate you for super-hero status, if you don't have it already.

Are you sure that you aren't Thermoman? I mean, really, you two look and sound the same. Well, most of the time.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
Do we think that prostitution is a desirable phenomenon, or an obstacle to gender equality? Do we even care?


I suppose the starting point is to decide whether prostitution is bad in itself, like theft, or is simply an unattractive but morally neutral occupation, like being a sewage worker.

If the former, then it is logical and moral to punish everyone involved with it.

If the latter, then it seems illogical and wrong to punish the providers or consumers of the service, but perfectly logical and right to ensure that the dangers and any associated criminal behaviours, are minimized or even eliminated. For example, the provision of "protection" at a level where it amounts to extortion.

The obvious next question is, how do we determine whether prostitution is a priori evil, and to be banned? This may depend on one's own moral standpoint, and belief structure. It seems that English law has shied away from banning it entirely, perhaps on moral grounds, perhaps on the equally valid grounds that given the impossibility of actually eliminating it, to attempt legislate to do so would amount to bad law.

Let us assume that we accept this approach, and that we do not think that the world as it now is, or our sense of moral justice, allow or require us to ban prostitution as such, but we all agree that it is not something which many people do out of choice, and that those who are forced into it (whether physically, or through societal issues which normally manifest as drug adiction) should be given help to choose some other path.

As Llewtrah has observed, this does take it as axiomatic that we want to reduce supply. I don't think that is unreasonable in itself; it also has the advantage of altering the supply/demand curve in favour of the suppliers, which would presumably lead to a less unbalanced (exloitative) economic relationship between prostitute and customer. Though it does perhaps mean that the most economically excluded males will be denied access to prostitutes, as to many other activities. For so long as resources remain finite, I can offer no solution to this (except for social security hooker vouchers, which just seems plain wrong to me).

In any case, it seems that the tragedy of the women who have been murdered in Suffolk, and of those in the same business across the UK and elsewhere, seems tied in with drug addiction. So the real debate must be about how to combat the problem of drug addiction, and drug-related crime.

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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
[QUOTE]In any case, it seems that the tragedy of the women who have been murdered in Suffolk, and of those in the same business across the UK and elsewhere, seems tied in with drug addiction. So the real debate must be about how to combat the problem of drug addiction, and drug-related crime.

And how to do that is probably as difficult as "sorting out" prostitution.

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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If indeed it can be "sorted out" at all, Tarquin. Perhaps some problems are insoluble. It seems a shame to give up trying, though.
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
Do we think that prostitution is a desirable phenomenon, or an obstacle to gender equality? Do we even care?


I suppose the starting point is to decide whether prostitution is bad in itself, like theft, or is simply an unattractive but morally neutral occupation, like being a sewage worker.

If the former, then it is logical and moral to punish everyone involved with it.



Not necessarily, actually. There is also the 'Swedish model,' which decriminalises the seller of sex but criminalises the buyer. If one begins from the standpoint that all prostitution is violence against the prostitute, which although a flawed assumption, is not entirely without merit, then it is perfectly logical and moral to regard the sex worker as a victim and the client as a perpetrator.

What is illogical and immoral, however, is the system we have now, which criminalises the buyer but not the seller. Either total decriminalisation or the adoption of the Swedish model is preferable to the current model we have, which is, after all, still based on the 1751 Disorderly Houses Act. Moreover, it is wholly impractical and counter-productive as a tool to reduce street working: (What is the penalty for soliciting? Generally a fine. How do these women earn the money to pay a fine? By working on the streets. Universally, 'zero tolerance' sex worker crackdowns have led to an increase, not a decrease in street working) On the other hand, prosecuting and fining the clients of prostitutes could be something of a disincentive for using their services.

However, the Swedish model is not without its negative outcomes either. This report examines both the positive and negative outcomes of the 1999 legislation. While street work has diminished quite dramatically, and it has led to the decline in the use of prostitutes in Swedish society, it has had the effect of moving prostitution into indoor illegal brothels, where they are more likely to be at the mercy of pimps, and while it has deterred many of the 'respectable' client-base from using street prostitutes, the client-base that remains are the people less likely to be deterred by police attention or social stigma, which in turn makes them more likely to be violent. While the actual level of violence against sex workers has diminished, because there are less sex workers and less clients, the likelihood of a sex worker being the victim of violence has in some cities increased. However, many of these problems can be attributed to less than vigorous prosecution of people who commit violence against sex workers. In recent years, with a more intolerant approach, that has declined.

Certainly, however, the Dutch or Nevadan model is not the way to go. This report conducted by the Scottish Parliament, who were considering legalisation of prostitution, investigated the effects of legalisation and regulation of the sex industry in the Netherlands and in Victoria, Australia. Their conclusions (my summary) were that legalisation led to:

A dramatic increase in all facets of the sex industry;
A dramatic increase in the involvement of organized crime in the sex industry;
A dramatic increase in child prostitution;
An explosion in the number of foreign women and girls trafficked into the region, and;
Indications of an increase in violence against women.

Moreover, it did nothing whatsoever to address the issues of social stigma or marginalisation of sex workers, and indeed, because they lost their anonymity, often increased it. The only positive communal benefit was in terms of revenue, since the legal work could now be taxed. Though that is not an irrelevant issue, the societal costs of prostitution have not been addressed by legalisation or regulation.

quote:

As Llewtrah has observed, this does take it as axiomatic that we want to reduce supply. I don't think that is unreasonable in itself; it also has the advantage of altering the supply/demand curve in favour of the suppliers, which would presumably lead to a less unbalanced (exloitative) economic relationship between prostitute and customer.



There is, at present, no real disincentive for clients who use prostitutes. If you are visiting a brothel which gets raided, you will not face any sanction whatsoever, whereas the sex worker you are frequenting can face prosecution, even imprisonment or deportation. There is no logical or moral argument for the equation to be balanced so far in favour of the service user, whereas I think I have shown that there is a logical and moral argument (perhaps not a convincing one, but an argument nonetheless) for the balance of criminality to be reversed.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz, my old nemesisIn any case, it seems that the tragedy of the women who have been murdered in Suffolk, and of those in the same business across the UK and elsewhere, seems tied in with drug addiction. So the real debate must be about how to combat the problem of drug addiction, and drug-related crime.
I think this deserves a post of its own, so I'm going to respond to it separately. Drug abuse is seen in this country as bad in and of itself. There does need to be a debate on the issue, and it needs to be one that moves along from the "drugs are bad m'kay" arguments which often prevail in these sort of discussions. We need to take the argument back to first principles. For the purposes of this debate, I'm talking about heroin addiction. Crack cocaine is a much thornier issue; since demand for crack cocaine is essentially vertical, no maintenance treatment exists.

Why is heroin use bad?

Heroin is bad because it is addictive and health-damaging. The effects of serious chaotic drug use can cause marginalisation in society, (ie it's more difficult for a chaotic drug user to get a job, few chaotic drug users socialise or sustain relationships with non-addicts,) and the power of serious drug-addiction can lead to crime and anti-social behaviour. Because chaotic drug users tend to be poor tenants, serious abuse of drugs can lead to associated problems such as homelessness and, of course, prostitution. There is no question but that the abuse of drugs is bad.

What do we do about it?

Well, it depends on what our goals are.

Okay, then, smartarse, what are our goals?

Well, our goals should be as follows. Firstly, to minimise the effects of chaotic drug use on the community, secondly to offer assistance in coming off drugs to anyone who wants it, and thirdly, to reduce the criminality involved in the use of drugs, either by aggressive targeting of large-scale traffickers or, perhaps more wisely, by legitimising the industry. To be honest, as far as the second option goes, the UK is better than many countries in the world. If a long-term addict wants to stop using, they will be quickly put onto either a maintenance methadone programme (which, though flawed, does have real benefits in harm reduction) or, less often, a residential rehabilitation centre, (many of whom have up to 65% permanent rehabilitation success rate.) Long term, the strategy to reduce drug addiction should entail a residential programme for the user.

But what about the chaotic drug users who don't want to stop using drugs?

Or, indeed, more charitably, those people who find the addiction too strong to combat immediately?

Yes.

Well, steps should be taken to minimise the harm their addiction does to society. We should investigate the introduction of supervised injection centres, which could minimise the risks of Hepatitis B or C or HIV associated with intravenous drugs use. Moreover, we should investigate the possibility of supply of injectable heroin to recidivist addicts, while emphasising rehabilitation first and foremost. One of the reasons that crime and heroin abuse go together is that it's expensive, and you can only buy it from criminals. Heroin as a product in and of itself is not expensive, it's merely the fact that it needs to be smuggled in, and profit margins need to be high in order to encourage people to take the associated risks with the trade.

I have in the past argued for total legalisation. While I still think there are some advantages (regulation of impurities, removal of gangsters from the equation, tax revenue) there is some evidence to show that in the immediate aftermath of legalisation, there will be a dramatic spike in the level of new users, before returning to the same level as before. However, since we are talking about highly addictive substances, the spike may have more serious consequences than similar spikes associated with the end of Prohibition in the US, or with the decriminalisation of cannabis in the Netherlands or Germany. It's not an argument ruling legalisation out, but it's a potential consequence to be aware of.

This is, however, perhaps outweighed by the fact that legalising the trade, while showing that it is dangerous and unhealthy, will free up a lot of revenue for the treatment of drug users, rather than concentrating it entirely on enforcement of existing and unenforceable law.

Crack cocaine is a rather thornier issue, however. Crack cocaine demand is essentially vertical (the more you have, the more you want) so maintenance doses are not practical, nor is there any satisfactory methadone-style programme which has been shown to effect any harm reduction of the damage done to society and the user. The only effective treatment programme for crack cocaine is residential rehabilitation, effectively the sectioning of crack addicts until they've gone cold turkey. Laudanum or Novocaine can ease withdrawal, but not terribly. The problem with that is that residential rehabilitation is very expensive, and it remains to be seen if we have the will for that sort of expenditure. Moreover, if the UK launch such a scheme, and other countries in Europe don't follow suit, we run the risk of 'Rehab Tourism;' already the UK is picking up the slack from the Republic of Ireland's laughably poor rehabilitation programme.

But, of course, none of this can happen without a general recognition that the War on Drugs is over, and Drugs won it. Which is political suicide in the UK, I would imagine.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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The Swedish model seems to come perilously close to the assumptions regarding exploitation which Llewtrah was warning against, Dara, and I infer from your own admission of its flaws that you would not defend it as a logical or moral basis for law reform in England.

It also seems to be addressing symptoms, rather than causes.

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
I think this deserves a post of its own, so I'm going to respond to it separately.

[snip]

But, of course, none of this can happen without a general recognition that the War on Drugs is over, and Drugs won it. Which is political suicide in the UK, I would imagine.

Thank you for a very thought-provoking and, if it isn't patronising of me to say so, well put, post.

I recall us debating drugs in the context of Pete Docherty not long ago, and I think we discussed the issues around total liberalisation of the drugs market. In short, I expressed concerns that this would lead to fundamental shifts towards drug-taking which I fear would prove to be of incalculable harm to society.

The more nuanced approach which you discuss here sounds like a reversion in principle to the enlighted system used in the UK until the late sixties. I understand that it was abandoned at the time because users were selling their prescription drugs to people who then became addicts themselves, although I have also heard it said that US political pressure was brought to bear. The re-sale problem could, perhaps, be controlled by a more regimented approach to distribution of prescription narcotics. The foreign political issue, if real, might be thornier.

I am not sure that these days, it would be political suicide for any party in the UK to call for, say, a Royal Commission to look into your proposals. You can sometimes be surprisingly conservative in your outlook, you know.

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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
I think this deserves a post of its own, so I'm going to respond to it separately.

[snip]

But, of course, none of this can happen without a general recognition that the War on Drugs is over, and Drugs won it. Which is political suicide in the UK, I would imagine.

Thank you for a very thought-provoking and, if it isn't patronising of me to say so, well put, post.

I recall us debating drugs in the context of Pete Docherty not long ago, and I think we discussed the issues around total liberalisation of the drugs market. In short, I expressed concerns that this would lead to fundamental shifts towards drug-taking which I fear would prove to be of incalculable harm to society.

The more nuanced approach which you discuss here sounds like a reversion in principle to the enlighted system used in the UK until the late sixties. I understand that it was abandoned at the time because users were selling their prescription drugs to people who then became addicts themselves, although I have also heard it said that US political pressure was brought to bear. The re-sale problem could, perhaps, be controlled by a more regimented approach to distribution of prescription narcotics. The foreign political issue, if real, might be thornier.

I am not sure that these days, it would be political suicide for any party in the UK to call for, say, a Royal Commission to look into your proposals. You can sometimes be surprisingly conservative in your outlook, you know.

When did they abandon the prescriptions for heroin? And how many registered users were there at that time?

(I've tried to look this up without success)

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Fizz:
The Swedish model seems to come perilously close to the assumptions regarding exploitation which Llewtrah was warning against, Dara, and I infer from your own admission of its flaws that you would not defend it as a logical or moral basis for law reform in England.



Well, although Llewtrah does warn about assumptions regarding exploitation, I don't think she's given any really satisfactory alternative assumptions, or indeed explain why these assumptions are to be avoided, other than referring to sex workers she has known. There are certainly enough sex workers who are the victims of abuse and exploitation for it to taken as the norm, rather than Llewtrah's entirely unsupported rose-coloured view of the profession and clients.

That said, I'm not sure if I would be in favour of the adoption of the Swedish model, to be honest. There are aspects of it I like, and aspects of it I dislike. But certainly it has more of a logical and moral basis behind it than the current legislation in this country, and doesn't have as many unpleasant consequences as total legalisation.

quote:
It also seems to be addressing symptoms, rather than causes.
If you want to address the causes of prostitution, you probably want to look at the way in which women are still economically and politically weaker than men. The way in which women are much more at risk of extreme poverty and marginalisation. The way in which girls are more at risk of sexual abuse while children than boys. The way in which women are encouraged to rely on their attractiveness to achieve goals in the media and in their upbringing. The way in which sexual pliancy is seen as a favourable characteristic in women by men. That's a fairly big ask, don't you think?

We're highly unlikely to be able to mend these gender divisions in society overnight, and indeed we may never do; perhaps some gender roles are innate, perhaps the way in which society is ordered by gender is immutable and fundamental.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't bother trying to address the damage done.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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[URL=Interesting article in today's Guardian]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1975732,00.html[/URL]

Ipswich proves how badly we need Tory libertarians

quote:
If the Conservatives want a free society, they could start by getting rid of counter-productive bans on drugs and prostitution


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I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
If you want to address the causes of prostitution, you probably want to look at the way in which women are still economically and politically weaker than men. The way in which women are much more at risk of extreme poverty and marginalisation. The way in which girls are more at risk of sexual abuse while children than boys. The way in which women are encouraged to rely on their attractiveness to achieve goals in the media and in their upbringing. The way in which sexual pliancy is seen as a favourable characteristic in women by men. That's a fairly big ask, don't you think?

We're highly unlikely to be able to mend these gender divisions in society overnight, and indeed we may never do; perhaps some gender roles are innate, perhaps the way in which society is ordered by gender is immutable and fundamental.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't bother trying to address the damage done.

I was thinking more in terms of addressing the drugs issue first, which of course you did in your next post.

Now we've solved that one, I can't see why you don't address the marginalisation of women too. It's not like you have to move away from the laptop to do your own shopping right now [Wink]


Tarquin, I think Archie2K and I are doing our best. But you need to have a word with Cinnamon, IMO.

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Tarquin Farquart:
When did they abandon the prescriptions for heroin? And how many registered users were there at that time?


1971. Here's a helpful link, which has some more helpful links on it.
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Tarquin Farquart:
When did they abandon the prescriptions for heroin? And how many registered users were there at that time?

(I've tried to look this up without success)

I think it's actually legal in the UK to prescribe heroin to addicts, but doctors don't often do so.

Heroin prescription 'cuts costs'

"Controversial" but not illegal.

Hardened addicts given free heroin in secret NHS trial - The Times, 23 November 2006.

This one's relevant (from 2004):

'I get my heroin on the NHS'

quote:
Get caught with heroin and you face seven years in prison. But not Erin O'Mara, one of 440 addicts in the UK to get a regular fix from an NHS prescription - an arrangement she says has turned her life around.

Erin O'Mara is a bright, bubbly magazine editor - hardly the stereotype of someone who injects heroin four times a day.

...

The downward spiral began with Erin's first taste of heroin aged 15 while in her native Australia, and has included 10 unsuccessful methadone programmes along the way.

To finance her habit, she began working as a masseuse, which led to escort work and then street prostitution. That stopped when she discovered she was HIV positive.

But the prescription has transformed her life. ...

I'm not sure why methadone rather than heroin treatments are more common, either. Methadone is also addictive, and doesn't seem to do much good. (edit - I meant that as a substance it doesn't seem to do people much good in itself, not that the prescription programme doesn't do much good.) And I've known addicts to fight over methadone supplies too. (I had to call an ambulance once at the soup kitchen because of a head injury after a fight when one woman was accused of stealing another woman's methadone supply.) So it doesn't eliminate the problem of people passing on their prescriptions to others.
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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Incidentally, do you know that "Heroin" is in fact a trademark, registered by the Bayer corporation who are still one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world? It's real name is Diacetylmorphine.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
I'm not sure why methadone rather than heroin treatments are more common, either. Methadone is also addictive, and doesn't seem to do much good. And I've known addicts to fight over methadone supplies too. (I had to call an ambulance once at the soup kitchen because of a head injury after a fight when one woman was accused of stealing another woman's methadone supply.) So it doesn't eliminate the problem of people passing on their prescriptions to others.

I was under the impression that methadone is slower-acting so you don't get such a hit from it.

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I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
I'm not sure why methadone rather than heroin treatments are more common, either. Methadone is also addictive, and doesn't seem to do much good. And I've known addicts to fight over methadone supplies too. (I had to call an ambulance once at the soup kitchen because of a head injury after a fight when one woman was accused of stealing another woman's methadone supply.) So it doesn't eliminate the problem of people passing on their prescriptions to others.

Because methadone works as an oral medication, so it's safe to let chaotic drug users take it away with them. Oral diacetylmorphine, like many orally administered opioids, can cause terrible bowel paralysis and colonic strictures, to the point of being almost life-threatening. The only reliable way to administer it therefore is by injection. But of course there are terrible health risks associated with long-term intravenous drug use, just as there are with any intravenous medicine use, so it wouldn't be sensible, from a health and safety perspective, to issue addicts with injectable prescriptions.

The only way in which injectable heroin could be administered is through supervised injections, which necessitates several visits a day to either a GP's surgery (unsurprisingly few GPs are in favour of this) or one of a network of specialist drop-in centres, which don't exist at present.

Moreover, an injectable heroin programme would cost about 15 times the equivalent oral methadone programme.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
Incidentally, do you know that "Heroin" is in fact a trademark, registered by the Bayer corporation who are still one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world? It's real name is Diacetylmorphine.

Does this mean we're going to get snooty letters from the Bayer corporation's lawyers?

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I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Tarquin Farquart:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
Incidentally, do you know that "Heroin" is in fact a trademark, registered by the Bayer corporation who are still one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world? It's real name is Diacetylmorphine.

Does this mean we're going to get snooty letters from the Bayer corporation's lawyers?
I'm not sure it's a protection that they zealously guard.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Mosherette
Deck the Malls


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Both from Dara

quote:
the 'Swedish model,' which decriminalises the seller of sex but criminalises the buyer

the system we have now, which criminalises the buyer but not the seller

I know that it's probably some technical legal difference betwen criminalising and decriminalising, but what in layman's terms (words of two syllables or less please [Wink] ) between the two statements above?

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Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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It's nice to see that the Mirror has taken Chief Constable McWhirter's request not to jeopardise any prosecution to heart.

quote:
One hooker told how Steve Wright was a regular client who paid her for sex about three times a month but also used a string of other girls.

And a neighbour revealed the 48-year-old sneaked vice girls into his home for sex behind partner Pamela's back - often picking them up after driving her to work.

A heroin addict named Lou, 28, said she last saw Wright three weeks ago when she charged him her usual £40 rate for full sex.

She said: "I'd describe him as a regular customer, someone who has been picking up girls for the last eight months or so.

"I know he uses lots of different prostitutes but I don't know if they include any of the ones who were murdered.

"You often see him driving round in his blue Mondeo looking for girls even if he had picked you the night before. He didn't strike me as weird and never gave me any reason to believe I was in danger.

"He'd just pick me up and then park in the car park at the back of his house. Sometimes we'd go in the front door and other times through the patio doors at the back.

"He'd take me through the kitchen and then upstairs to the bedroom for sex. He didn't want to talk much.

The Sun have a very tasteful front-page, as well.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Mosherette:
Both from Dara

quote:
the 'Swedish model,' which decriminalises the seller of sex but criminalises the buyer

the system we have now, which criminalises the buyer but not the seller

I know that it's probably some technical legal difference betwen criminalising and decriminalising, but what in layman's terms (words of two syllables or less please [Wink] ) between the two statements above?
Or I could have just got 'buyer' and 'seller' mixed up. Or, I know, I could have put a deliberate error in there just to see if people were paying attention. Yes, that's right, that's exactly what I did. Well done Mosh, who gets a gold star!

To clarify, or indeed, correct my earlier mistake:

The current system in the UK criminalises the person selling sex, while the person buying sex is not committing an offence unless they are publicly soliciting sex, ie a man using a massage parlour is not a criminal, whereas the prostitute he is visiting is.

The 'Swedish Model' reverses the two. The client is committing a criminal offence in buying sex, whereas the sex worker is not.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
The Sun have a very tasteful front-page, as well.

That's revolting - Noel Edmonds has got a date?
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Mosherette
Deck the Malls


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You mean my brain noticed something useful for once? Well done brain!

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Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
The Sun have a very tasteful front-page, as well.

That's revolting - Noel Edmonds has got a date?
I know. I mean, it's bad enough your wife leaving you, but leaving you for Noel Edmonds?

Brr. There but for the grace of God, eh?

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Andrew of Ware, England
A-Ware in a Manger


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The Suffolk police have just announced that Stephen Wright, the second of the two men arrested, has been charged with all five murders. The man arrested first, who has not been named by the police, has been released on police bail 'pending further investigations'.

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Andrew, Ware, England

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Yep, Andrew beat me to it:

Man charged with Suffolk murders

quote:
A 48-year-old man has been charged with murdering five women whose bodies were found in countryside near Ipswich.

Stephen Wright was arrested on Tuesday morning at his home in the London Road area of the town.

I hope they have a good case...
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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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In which case, I should probably take back what I said about not being surprised about it being the first guy.

Now it seems that we've got a serial killer with the same name as a radio personality. That's going to be weird.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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Well, he's not the first BBC radio presenter to share a name with a celebrated murderer.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Oh, well, that's alright, then.

Now I'm just wondering if he confessed...

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Well, I've just walked into town and back, which takes me part of the way down Portman Road. Up until today there have been two police cars at the crossroads, and both were gone. I also walk past the Police HQ, and the extra cars and vans that have been parked around have gone (except for, bizarrely, a North Wales van, which pulled off as I walked past), but there were about 5 or 6 TV satellite vans and various reporters doing to-camera pieces. It was quite bizarre seeing an Anglia News OB van there, though, as the studio itself is literally 2 minutes down the road.

I also looked at the newspapers while I was in town. It's front page news on every single one of them, except for the Daily Express, which has instead chosen to go with the fact that it's foggy.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Andrew of Ware, England
A-Ware in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
Well, he's not the first BBC radio presenter to share a name with a celebrated murderer.

Perhaps we should say, in the case of Stephen Wright, that he is an alleged murderer. His solicitor said in court today, according to the news report on the Steve Wright in the Afternoon programme, that the media should respect Stephen Wright's right to be presumed innocent.

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Andrew, Ware, England

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