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snopes
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An immigrant from Africa has gone on trial on charges alleging he circumcised his 2-year-old daughter with a pair of scissors to avoid bringing shame on his family.

http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/1025genital-mutilation25-ON.html

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Strawberries 'n Sugar
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There are no words to describe how this makes me feel. [flame]

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I made it!
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Sweet Home California
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I fail to understand exactly how a female circumsicion would work.

--------------------
I really hate one-eyed flying purple people eaters! I mean, seriously! They're all like, "I like to eat people, I'm purple, I fly and I have one eye!"-We've Got Mail!

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Dropbear
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quote:
Originally posted by SweetHomeCalifornia:
I fail to understand exactly how a female circumsicion would work.

This site might help.

Dropbear

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" The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett)

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LadyLockeout
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Chalk me up as someone who wants to know why the mother didn't notice this? Or the grandmother? Did no one ever bathe the child?

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Forgotten Fay
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[flame] This poor girl.... I have no words for this.

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Errata
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quote:
Originally posted by SweetHomeCalifornia:
I fail to understand exactly how a female circumsicion would work.

To start with, "female circumcision" is a euphemism. Its not equivalent to the male version, its monstrous.
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Pseudo_Croat
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Must...stifle...urge...to..cry...out...about..."civilizing...the...savages...."

- Pseudo_Croat

--------------------
"At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

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SantasHobbit
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I'm cuddling my little girl on my lap as I type this... and the main emotion I feel is anger.

I'm too upset to type anything else.

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Angsty little hobbitssssses

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Syllavus
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That poor little girl. [Frown]

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"That would be really dangerous, you know. Indiscriminately extricating someone from the petrified corpse of a supernatural creature." - My Husband

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Sara at home
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I think the prosecutor is going to be hard pressed to prove the father did this and that he acted alone. Who's going to believe that the two female primary caregivers didn't notice?

If I were on a jury would I convict the father for this if I believed the women were at least involved if not the actual perpetrators and not also charged? Not likely that I could get past the "reasonable doubt" threshold.

How do you change people's thinking and make them understand this is just wrong? I am less concerned about punishing the person who thought he was doing the right thing than I am preventing the next person who is thinks this must be done to a little girl.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
Must...stifle...urge...to..cry...out...about..."civilizing...the...savages...."

- Pseudo_Croat

I guess I should be thankful you're stifling the urge. Why would you use such an inflammatory term as "savages"?

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Officially Heartless

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Giselle
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Thistles, in case you haven't noticed Pseudo says whacked out crap like that all the time. Its best to just ignore it.

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frogpond
Jingle Sales


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I recall being so horrified when I first read about this practice - I think it may have been in a book by Alice Walker. It truly isn't at all comparable to male circumcision and the effects go far beyond the pain of the original so-called operation and can make for a lifetime of misery. I can't possibly believe the women didn't notice for what had been done to the child for years. It is absolutely disgusting that this still takes place today.

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So many books, so little time.

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Giselle:
Thistles, in case you haven't noticed Pseudo says whacked out crap like that all the time. Its best to just ignore it.

Do you think she's doing it to bother people on purpose, or does she genuinely believe this stuff? If it's the latter, I will not be able to resist trying to change her mind.

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Officially Heartless

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Giselle
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Judging by previous posts she believes the things she says and when someone tries to speak any sense she wants answers on how to solve the worlds problems but wants to make no effort to do so and doesn't listen to any of the advice she asks for.

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Ralphie, get off the stage sweetheart.

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ThistleSoftware
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Ah. Great.

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Officially Heartless

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Methuselah
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quote:
Originally posted by ThistleSpectre:
quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
Must...stifle...urge...to..cry...out...about..."civilizing...the...savages...."

- Pseudo_Croat

I guess I should be thankful you're stifling the urge. Why would you use such an inflammatory term as "savages"?
I understand that the term 'savages' has a racist connotation, but looking at the definition from Merriam-Webster:
quote:
Main Entry:2 savage
Function: noun
1 : a person belonging to a primitive society
2 : a brutal person
3 : a rude or unmannerly person

Definition 2 fits the scenario, no? The practice of Female Genital Mutilation is based in misogyny. It is indeed brutal, as is the general treatment of women in societies that practice FGM.

(Edited for spelling error)

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Signora Del Drago
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I agree with Scari Sara. It would be better to try to educate than to punish a person for doing somthing that he was taught by his culture was the right thing to do. What has already been done to this little girl and many others can't be undone, but maybe it would be possible to keep this from happening to a few others. (There can be a partial correction through plastic surgery, but most won't have access to it.)

I just did a search to try to find a link to an organization I had heard about during a television news report, but I can't find it. I had intended to send them a donation, but you know what "they" say about the road to hell. If anyone knows about this organization, please post it. Thanks. After reading more about it, I am sick to my stomach and will no longer delay making a donation.

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
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Lgreywolf
Deck the Malls


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I also think it's highly unlikely that the girl's mother (and probably grandmother) had no knowledge of what the father did. When the Wolfcub was three or four she fell on a chair at preschool, and got a slight cut near her vagina. She was in such pain when she tried to pee that she outright refused to. We didn't know what had happened at first, but when we took her to the doctor that evening (we were thinking urinary tract infection) the story came out, and the doctor said it was very minor and she'd be fine.

But imagine, a tiny cut stings enough during urnination to bring a little girl to tears; I can't imagine the girl in the OP not being in agony for a long while after what was done to her (most especially while peeing or being bathed.)

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"Most Jewish holidays can be summed up very simply: They tried to kill us. We won. Let's eat." - my in-laws' Rabbi.

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ThistleSoftware
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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
quote:
Originally posted by ThistleSpectre:
quote:
Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat:
Must...stifle...urge...to..cry...out...about..."civilizing...the...savages...."

- Pseudo_Croat

I guess I should be thankful you're stifling the urge. Why would you use such an inflammatory term as "savages"?
I understand that the term 'savages' has a rascist connotation, but looking at the definition from Merriam-Webster:
quote:
Main Entry:2 savage
Function: noun
1 : a person belonging to a primitive society
2 : a brutal person
3 : a rude or unmannerly person

Definition 2 fits the scenario, no? The practice of Female Genital Mutilation is based in misogyny. It is indeed brutal, as is the general treatment of women in societies that practice FGM.

When someone says "civilizing the savages" and they are talking about a black person, it is pretty difficult to not read it as inflammatory. I did not say Pseudo_Croat was being racist, but that she was using inflammatory language. That particular phrase has a long history and one that I'm fairly certain P_C is familiar with especially since she's gotten in hot water on these boards before because of her comments about developing countries.

At any rate I eagerly (although I imagine futilely) await her answer to my question.

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Officially Heartless

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Lydia Oh Lydia
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From what I've read about FGM, it's usually a woman who does this. Assuming the mother and grandmother are also from Ethiopia, my bet would be on one (or both) of them as having done the actual FGM.

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"My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League.

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by Lgreywolf:
I also think it's highly unlikely that the girl's mother (and probably grandmother) had no knowledge of what the father did. When the Wolfcub was three or four she fell on a chair at preschool, and got a slight cut near her vagina. She was in such pain when she tried to pee that she outright refused to. We didn't know what had happened at first, but when we took her to the doctor that evening (we were thinking urinary tract infection) the story came out, and the doctor said it was very minor and she'd be fine.

But imagine, a tiny cut stings enough during urnination to bring a little girl to tears; I can't imagine the girl in the OP not being in agony for a long while after what was done to her (most especially while peeing or being bathed.)

I concur. When Kylie was a tyke she ended up with small laceration on her girly parts from falling on a book, and the blood and discomfort were pretty noticeable. There's no way the kind of wounds we're talking about in the OP would have gone unnoticed.

Also, from what I've read about the cultural context in which this practice tends to take place it's usually something done to females by females.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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frogpond
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quote:
Originally posted by Lydia Oh Lydia:
From what I've read about FGM, it's usually a woman who does this. Assuming the mother and grandmother are also from Ethiopia, my bet would be on one (or both) of them as having done the actual FGM.

According to my local news the mother is from an area in South Africa where it is not practiced. However, I still say they had to have known what was done.

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Lydia Oh Lydia
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frogpond, thanks for the update.

I definitely agree that the they still had to have known.

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"My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League.

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Sweet Home California
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Dropbear:
quote:
Originally posted by SweetHomeCalifornia:
I fail to understand exactly how a female circumsicion would work.

This site might help.

Dropbear

I'm now ever more sickened than I already was. [Frown]

--------------------
I really hate one-eyed flying purple people eaters! I mean, seriously! They're all like, "I like to eat people, I'm purple, I fly and I have one eye!"-We've Got Mail!

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm as outraged as the rest of you. This procedure should have been done under sanitary conditions such as in a hospital or clinic by a skilled surgeon when the child was a mere few days old, so she'd have no memory of the ordeal!

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Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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Tag, we've already got a male cirumcision discussion going on in another thread. Do we really need it in this one?

Nonny

--------------------
When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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LeaflessMapleTree
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And do you honestly feel that the two are similar?

--------------------
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tagurit
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quote:
Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
And do you honestly feel that the two are similar?

Absolutely! Why are they dissimilar? Culturally based genital mutilation. Why is their practice more barbaric than our own? Because we do ours under sanitary conditions, nice and neat? There's even a hint at shame in both cultures should the procedure not be done. I see no difference. They cut their girls. We cut our boys.

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AAMAH

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
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There is a bit of difference between removing the clitorus and the labia and sewing the vagina nearly shut and removing the foreskin.

Kinda like the difference between skinning someone to death and shooting someone in the head.

Both bad. One is a far greater order of magnitude of bad.

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Pseudo_Croat
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quote:
Originally posted by ThistleSpectre:
Do you think she's doing it to bother people on purpose, or does she genuinely believe this stuff? If it's the latter, I will not be able to resist trying to change her mind.

I used to believe that stuff long ago, but I don't anymore. Believe it or not, your words have changed my mind about such things, made me realize how wrong I can be sometimes. Nowadays, my urge to cry out such crazy things is just a defense mechanism I've put up to keep myself from trashing my computer room in anger at such stupidity and ignorance.

For this reson, apologies are in order. I'm sorry if I've ever sounded ignorant to you guys. I'll try to keep my defense mechanisms to myself, even if is difficult for me to do sometimes.

- Pseudo (I hope I've redeemed myself in your eyes) Croat

--------------------
"At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

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tagurit
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
There is a bit of difference between removing the clitorus and the labia and sewing the vagina nearly shut and removing the foreskin.

Kinda like the difference between skinning someone to death and shooting someone in the head.

Both bad. One is a far greater order of magnitude of bad.

There are varying degrees of fgm, depending on the culture we're talking about. I didn't see detail of the exact procedure that was performed, in the article. Do you know what it is exactly that is traditionally done in this family's region of Ethiopia? I still argue that if you're going to cut genitals, don't get hung up on variations on the theme. If it's bad to cut genitals, then it's bad to cut genitals. Else we end up saying that a milder form of mutilation is ok, or that we will be the ones to dictate what is good and proper mutilation of genitals.

--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
---
AAMAH

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Eddylizard
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Even if we leave aside the repugnant nature of fgm, surely performing any surgery on your child, with a pair of scissors, and presumably with no antisepsis, no anaesthesia and no formal training has to be pretty disturbing.

If your child had appendicitis, would you get them to lie on the kitchen table and whip it out with a breadknife?

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I couldn't agree with you more, Eddylizard. However, there are no sanitary conditions for fgm in the US. It is, in fact, illegal.

--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
---
AAMAH

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