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Originally posted by Sara at home:

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Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
Whoever was responsible for the first class tickets back to the US, before there was any proof of wrongdoing, is the one who's going to have to take the blame for that, not Karr.

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Blame for what? Properly investigating a murder? There's a man in Thailand, confessing to a murder in Boulder allegedly including details not known to the public, and wanted on child porn charges in California. The Boulder police, having enough information to consider him a suspect (or at least a "person of interest") were unable to procur a good DNA sample so they brought him back to the US to get one. Thai officials were cooperative, Karr himself seemed to be cooperative. They got him here, tested his DNA which proved not to be a match, had no physical evidence with which to base a charge of murder on him, so they released him. Handling it any other way would have been remiss on the part of the Boulder DA.

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Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by All-American:

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Originally posted by Christie:

I really gave the authorities (obviously unmerited) credit for knowing something conclusive that they weren't making public.

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Yeah, we heard this same line from the people who supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

By the way, your blind faith in the Warren Report just took another shot to the head. So to speak. Details in Spook Central...

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I have blind faith in the Warren Commission? Learn something new every day.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
Maybe they should give free flights to anyone who claims to be the killer? I hear there have been several.

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Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Sylvanz:

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So Karr's DNA didn't match.

Big surprise, that.

Unfortunately, this means I'll be sticking around.

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How very....nice.

P&LL, Syl

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Oh, Sylvanz - STOP. People might think you're serious.

I just noticed your signature. And how appropriate it is to this thread.

Absurdity: That there ever was an outside intruder.

Atrocity: Allowing a mother who murdered her own daughter, and a father who acted as an accessory after the fact, to get off scott-free.

Posts: 308 | From: San Fernando, CA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
Yes, this whole episode makes me seriously doubt that whole thing about the grassy knoll. Whatever. (Not to you, Sara. To that post above, from AA.)

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I knew that.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Atrocity: Allowing a mother who murdered her own daughter, and a father who acted as an accessory after the fact, to get off scott-free.

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Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Christie:

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Originally posted by All-American:

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Originally posted by Christie:

I really gave the authorities (obviously unmerited) credit for knowing something conclusive that they weren't making public.

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Yeah, we heard this same line from the people who supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

By the way, your blind faith in the Warren Report just took another shot to the head. So to speak. Details in Spook Central...

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I have blind faith in the Warren Commission? Learn something new every day.

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Originally posted by Christie:

Sara you're trying to reason with someone who believes things like this:

Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy


So how then are we supposed to interpret your comment? If you ridicule the theory of a Kennedy assassination conspiracy, by definition you're agreeing with the Warren Report.

Posts: 308 | From: San Fernando, CA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Sylvanz:

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Atrocity: Allowing a mother who murdered her own daughter, and a father who acted as an accessory after the fact, to get off scott-free.

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Ummm yeah why bother with any of that silly due process stuff and innocent until proven guilty. Nothing like a good old fashioned lynching to make us feel all proud and stuff.

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Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
Yes, this whole episode makes me seriously doubt that whole thing about the grassy knoll. Whatever. (Not to you, Sara. To that post above, from AA.)

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Are you mentally retarded? Or just unable to read English?

Posts: 308 | From: San Fernando, CA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Sylvanz:
Errm not to speak for Christie, but I assume that, much like the OP case, it is not a matter of one thing or the other. Am I close Christie?

P&LL, Syl

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Posts: 308 | From: San Fernando, CA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by All-American:
So how then are we supposed to interpret your comment? If you ridicule the theory of a Kennedy assassination conspiracy, by definition you're agreeing with the Warren Report.

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Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Sylvanz:
Errm not to speak for Christie, but I assume that, much like the OP case, it is not a matter of one thing or the other. Am I close Christie?

P&LL, Syl

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Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Nobody Important:
The fake ransom note does not prove the Ramseys guilty or not guilty, nor does it prove or disprove the intruder theory.

We have the benefit of hindsight to know that the ransom note was a fake (in that there was no kidnapping for ransom - JonBenet was already dead in the basement).

An intruder/ messed-up perv (Karr or someone else) could have written an awkward "ransom note" to try to throw the police off the scent of what really happened, just as well as Patsy could have.

But the fact that the ransom note was not written by "professional" kidnappers does not necessarily point to the guilt of the parent(s).

ETA:
Spanked by wanderwoman

and for spelling errors

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Posts: 308 | From: San Fernando, CA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Christie:
That and that I really have little interest in who shot Kennedy or why.

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Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by All-American:
The author of the note betrays their knowledge of John Ramsey's business, and (evidently) that he received a $118k bonus that year. Why on earth would anyone reveal this knowledge?

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And again, something that some people here seem incapable of grasping: The note had to have been placed AFTER the girl was already dead. An outside intruder would not risk going back upstairs to place a totally pointless note. He'd vacate the premises in a hurry.

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Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by All-American:

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Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
Yes, this whole episode makes me seriously doubt that whole thing about the grassy knoll. Whatever. (Not to you, Sara. To that post above, from AA.)

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Are you mentally retarded? Or just unable to read English?

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Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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There would be no point in an outside intruder writing and leaving a phony ransom note. All he would be doing would be leaving additional evidence behind to give himself away. The author of the note betrays their knowledge of John Ramsey's business, and (evidently) that he received a $118k bonus that year. Why on earth would anyone reveal this knowledge?

And again, something that some people here seem incapable of grasping: The note had to have been placed AFTER the girl was already dead. An outside intruder would not risk going back upstairs to place a totally pointless note. He'd vacate the premises in a hurry.

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Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Sylvanz:

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There would be no point in an outside intruder writing and leaving a phony ransom note. All he would be doing would be leaving additional evidence behind to give himself away. The author of the note betrays their knowledge of John Ramsey's business, and (evidently) that he received a $118k bonus that year. Why on earth would anyone reveal this knowledge?

And again, something that some people here seem incapable of grasping: The note had to have been placed AFTER the girl was already dead. An outside intruder would not risk going back upstairs to place a totally pointless note. He'd vacate the premises in a hurry.

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How. do. you. know? I mean really? How do you know Ms Ramsey did it? Did you see her do it? Did God or little pink fairys tell you she did? Were you on a jury that convicted her? Why do you, some 26 year old random guy know without reasonable doubt that this woman killed her own child? Because the killer didn't behave in a way that you find logical? And we're all "retarded" because we don't all say, "Why YES All-American said it's true it must be...evidence be damned?" I'm certainly glad that this is not how people are supposed to be convicted or even accused in this country. You see the standard is real evidence not empty conjecture.

I don't know who killed that little girl. I don't know that her parents did or did not do it. I simply am not in a position to know for certain anything about the case beyond what the investigators have seen fit to make public. No one else here is either.

P&LL, Syl

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Point of order: I did not call you retarded. I called Gansfield retarded. Which he evidently is.

I sense you and I are bonding here.

1. The note is in Patsy Ramsey's handwriting. She wrote it alternate hand (as evidenced by the squiggly nature of the letters), but there are many other ingrained habits, such as the way letters are formed and spaced, which still shine through. Three handwriting experts pronounced the ransom note as being written by her (which I provided in a previous post). There are visual samples of the ransom note and her handwriting on the internet, if you ever care to research it yourself. The similarities are unmistakable. She deliberately altered her natural handwriting after the day of the murder, based upon samples collected from before and after.

2. The ransom note was written on her pad of paper. There is absolutely no doubt about this, since a "practice" ransom note in the identical handwriting was found still on the pad. This means any outside intruder would have to arrive on the scene, and spend the time in the house to write a 2 1/2 page note, plus the practice note. Does he turn on the lights when he does this?

3. When the daughter's body was discovered, the police officers present noted in their report that one of the ropes had fallen off her hand, and the other was very loosely tied. They concluded that there was no way the ropes could've ever restrained a live six-year-old, and were added after the child was dead. Why would an outside intruder stage the scene after the fact?

4. Why was the child strangled AND bludgeoned? And for that matter, bludgeoned with what? A blunt object such as a golf club or lead pipe would lacerate the scalp if struck with enough force to cause an eight-inch skull fracture. These are the coroner's words, not mine. The coroner concluded the fracture had to have been caused by an object such as a toilet or bathtub - large, and with rounded edges. Why did the killer strangle her after bludgeoning her, if not to either insure she was dead or stage the scene as being something that it wasn't (i.e., to attempt to cover up the skull strike with the strangulation). If the killer intended to kill her, why write the ransom note at all?

5. For that matter, why write the ransom note at all? Only if one wanted to raise the specter of an outside party. Why would an outside party feel the need?

6. The coroner concluded the sexual abuse evident at the time of the murder did not provide the killer with any sexual gratification (i.e., it was not penile penetration of the vagina). More possible evidence of staging. The coroner's report also noted at least one previous instance of sexual abuse, at least 48-72 hours old judged by the degree of healing. How do the Ramseys, if they're innocent, explain that?

7. Have you read the ransom note? Please do. Why would an outside intruder refer to himself as a "foreign faction"? If it was to throw people off his true identity, why then does he give away that he knows of John Ramsey's business, and John Ramsey's bonus?

8. There is absolutely no evidence of an outside intruder, that hasn't been explained. One website cites four red fibers attached to the duct tape which covered the girl's mouth, which were "Never linked to any articles inside the Ramsey house". The same site also points to an "animal hair of unknown origin" also attached to the duct tape. The truth is the Boulder police suspected that the red fibers came from Patsy Ramsey's red blazer she was photographed wearing that night, and the animal hair from the fur-trimmed boots she also was wearing that night. But the Boulder DA refused to grant the police permission to obtain samples from the blazer and boots.

Posts: 308 | From: San Fernando, CA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by All-American:
Point of order: I did not call you retarded. I called Gansfield retarded. Which he evidently is.

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Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Sara at home:

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Originally posted by All-American:
[qb] The author of the note betrays their knowledge of John Ramsey's business, and (evidently) that he received a $118k bonus that year. Why on earth would anyone reveal this knowledge?

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You just provided one of the biggest reasons the Ramseys wouldn't have written that note. Why would they put that in the note?

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THAT is one of your biggest reasons? Boy, is your case in trouble.

Patsy Ramsey needs to explain in her note how the killer was aware of the Ramsey family in the first place, and how he theoretically knew his way to the girl's bedroom without waking everyone else up. (How he then subdues her and carries or drags her down to the basement without her letting out an ear-piercing squeal is never answered. Maybe drugged pineapple?) She tries to place suspicion on someone at John Ramsey's place of work. Why couldn't putting this information into the ransom note be the work of an outside intruder? For the simple fact that revealing the knowledge of the information is self-incriminating to anyone else besides the Ramseys.

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(BTW, that was a rhetorical question, please don't answer.)

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Oops. Too late.

Posts: 308 | From: San Fernando, CA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by All-American:
Are you mentally retarded? Or just unable to read English?

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The primary rule of this board is for members to act civilly towards each other.

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Posts: 2511 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Barbara:

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Originally posted by All-American:
Are you mentally retarded? Or just unable to read English?

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From the FAQ:

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The primary rule of this board is for members to act civilly towards each other.

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Barbara "but you'd read the FAQ, right?" Mikkelson

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Posts: 319 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by All-American:

Patsy Ramsey needs to explain in her note how the killer was aware of the Ramsey family in the first place, and how he theoretically knew his way to the girl's bedroom without waking everyone else up.

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Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by musicgeek:
OK, semi-wacko-but-maybe-not-all-that-much mild conspiracy theory:

-First-rate wackaloon in Thailand confesses to JonBenet killing.

-Boulder police check out the story and the guy's record. They seriously doubt that this is the guy (too many holes in the story and behavioral red flags), but follow up as a matter of course.

-In the course of investigating leads, California police say "we've got this guy for kiddie porn, but can't extradite based on our case. You'd be doing a big favor by getting him back stateside on the Ramsey charges. Run him through and we'll take him from there."

-Scenario plays out as it has -- creep gets nailed for kiddy porn, is removed as a potential danger to society, and justice is served in one instance. As a side benefit, the public is reminded that Boulder police are still actively investigating the case, and that they are serious enough to follow up leads from other countries.

Given that Karr was such a long shot (I love Andy' Borowitz's "Amelia Earhart" take on it), this seems to me the most logical explanation. Any takers? I've completely pulled this theory out of my behind; are there any snopesters in the law enforcement community who could say whether this would be a viable scenario?

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Posts: 7581 | From: Gainesville, Georgia | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Sylvanz:
He has decided that Patsy Ramsey did it because handwriting experts think the note is in her handwriting, and killers act exactly the way he thinks they do all. the. time. Anyone who disagrees with him is stupid. This, incidentally includes everyone actually involved with the investigation, and in possession of all the evidence.

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Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Not to mention the majority of the handwriting experts who either don't believe that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note or that it is inconclusive whether she wrote the note or not.

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Sara, why do you insist on bringing up non-sequiturs? In this case non-sequiturs means any evidence that doesn't match All-American's "verdict."

P&LL, Syl

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire

Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged |