posted
Police said they had "absolutely nothing to go on" after a 35-year-old man was brutally beaten to death by a group of four young males on a transit bus.
posted
You beat me to it, snopes. Yeesh, every time I finish assuring small-town family that Edmonton really isn't very dangerous...I am surprised that this happened on the south side. I really did expect it to be on the north side. I used to take route 74 occasionally when I lived in the way south side.
It will be interesting to see if this is indeed gang related. I somehow expect not, since gangs tend to do late night drive-by shootings and Molotov cocktails. Any beatings would be in an alley or deserted street in the wee hours of morning. A beating on a bus is a little too hands-on and definitely too public for most gang operations.
We were talking last night about how dismayed we felt that there were 10-15 people on the bus and no one did anything to help. Putting ourselves in the place of the victim, we'd want someone to come to our aid. Looking at it from the outside, it just seems that helping is the right thing to do. But in that situation, would we actually have gone to someone else's aid? Would we have put ourselves in harm's way and risked getting killed, too? I'm about as useful as a stick of butter in a fight. I might have stood up as a show of force if other people did, but I'm not sure I'd have it in me to initiate such a thing. On the other hand, I'd feel that man's death on my conscience very deeply if I did nothing.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
A few things. Speaking only for myself, I'd intevene if there was a greater chance of success than there was of just getting hurt or killed myself. I'd certainly have made a phone call and tried to snap a few descrete photos of the suspects. But the truth is with the large number of youths and that they were swarming, you're basically in the middle of a Lord Of The Flies event.
In fact, just thinking about the community of Millwoods in Edmonton I'm reminded of Lord of the Flies.
Jon
-------------------- We're not insured for pickles. Posts: 2358 | From: Fort McMurray, Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
They just did an update on the noon news. The four young men made their first court appearance today and have reserved their pleas. The judge informed them that if guilty they will be sentenced as adults, which was met with shocked gasps from the mothers and friends in the courtroom. They showed the obligatory sobbing friends, going on about how they're such good guys and couldn't possibly have meant for this to happen.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Up North: Good if: This leads to stiffer sentences for youth violence, wakes up the community, and causes other misguided youths to take up hockey or something.
Ida know, Jon -- misguided youths given sticks and taught how to use them? Asking for more trouble.
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Hockey wasn't big in my hometown, mostly because there weren't many skating rinks and not really any suitable frozen bodies of water. I remember after moving here my initial horror when I saw 3 teenage guys walking down the street with hockey sticks! They must be up to no good! Then I realized they were walking to a school that was next to an indoor rink and they were probably bringing their own sticks for gym class. Still, I don't entirely trust people carrying hockey sticks around, even in a hockey town.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Grr. More comments heard on the news from friends of the 4 youth: "All I can say is that they are young, fun-loving kids who respect their parents. And they don't deserve to be in the place where they are right now."
Yes, they damn well do deserve it!
"They didn't mean to do it. It was an accident."
Four people do not accidently beat someone to death!
It was rather heartbreaking hearing the victim's father on the news. The victim's family is from Ontario, and the father was saying he'd been following the story on the internet for two days before finding out the reports were about his own son.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Charged with manslaughter I guess because it wasn't pre-meditated? I mean, what else do you call beating a man to death but murder unless you're a doe eyed innocent?
Personally, I'm amazed someone up there isn't blaming America for it already.
-------------------- "One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings." -- Diogenes
"Vote Republican! We won't burn you at the stake for your religious beliefs or slaughter your family and steal your land." -- Ramblin' Dave Posts: 3555 | From: Florida | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Everlasting Rebochan: Charged with manslaughter I guess because it wasn't pre-meditated? I mean, what else do you call beating a man to death but murder unless you're a doe eyed innocent?
They are charged with murder. There are 4 degrees of murder, and manslaughter is one of them. In Canada, first degree murder is the intentional killing of another person with premeditation, in the furtherance of another serious criminal offense (kidnapping, robbery, etc.), or the killing of a peace officer. Second degree murder is the intentional killing of another person without premeditation (ie killing in the heat of the moment). Manslaughter is the killing of another person where there is no intent to kill. The fourth degree of murder is infanticide, the killing of an infant by a mother while still recovering from the birth.
quote:Personally, I'm amazed someone up there isn't blaming America for it already.
Wha?
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Everlasting Rebochan: Charged with manslaughter I guess because it wasn't pre-meditated? I mean, what else do you call beating a man to death but murder unless you're a doe eyed innocent?
They are charged with murder. There are 4 degrees of murder, and manslaughter is one of them. In Canada, first degree murder is the intentional killing of another person with premeditation, in the furtherance of another serious criminal offense (kidnapping, robbery, etc.), or the killing of a peace officer. Second degree murder is the intentional killing of another person without premeditation (ie killing in the heat of the moment). Manslaughter is the killing of another person where there is no intent to kill. The fourth degree of murder is infanticide, the killing of an infant by a mother while still recovering from the birth.
Okay, that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification. I usually hear "manslaughter" down here as something used in plea bargains for murder, but I think I've just misunderstood the concept.
quote:Personally, I'm amazed someone up there isn't blaming America for it already.
Wha? [/QUOTE] I was just trying to take a stab at the mayor of Toronto, who blamed the rising gun violence and youth crime on the U.S. But I suppose Canadian political humor makes more sense if a Canadian is saying it than some American who tries to make sense of it all without any of the context.
-------------------- "One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings." -- Diogenes
"Vote Republican! We won't burn you at the stake for your religious beliefs or slaughter your family and steal your land." -- Ramblin' Dave Posts: 3555 | From: Florida | Registered: Feb 2002
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We were talking last night about how dismayed we felt that there were 10-15 people on the bus and no one did anything to help.
I'm confused. The first article says there were only 3 people on the bus.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Everlasting Rebochan: Okay, that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification. I usually hear "manslaughter" down here as something used in plea bargains for murder, but I think I've just misunderstood the concept.
It might not be a misunderstanding of the concept, but rather differing legal distinctions in different countries. Your concept of manslaughter may be accurate in the US (but I have no idea).
quote:I was just trying to take a stab at the mayor of Toronto, who blamed the rising gun violence and youth crime on the U.S. But I suppose Canadian political humor makes more sense if a Canadian is saying it than some American who tries to make sense of it all without any of the context.
Ah. Well, most of the rest of Canada ignores anything about Toronto (And for Alberta, we request that everyone ignore Premier Ralph Klein.) Seriously, Canadians don't generally seem too big on pinning blame on anyone but the perpetrator. In the case of youth, there will probably be some shifting to the parents and the question of where these young men got alcohol. I would be rather surprised if anyone starts squawking about video game violence or rap music. I think those people are definitely in the minority, but they are the ones that make the news. In general, I think Canadians are pretty disdainful of passing the buck on crimes like this.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by ThistleS: I'm confused. The first article says there were only 3 people on the bus.
They left. At the time of the early reports, there was only confirmation of 3 or 4 passengers. As the investigation continued, they were able to confirm that there were more people, but they left before investigators arrived*. Witnesses who left have been asked to call the police to give statements if they have any further information.
I somewhat doubt anyone does. These low-floor busses have a raised section at the back and nearly everyone on the bus who is on the main level would be facing the opposite direction and not see anything. People generally read or stare out the window and keep to themselves, not taking note of anyone who is getting on or off. People who ride often are used to occasional loud passengers, and they're ignored. I can easily see not being aware there's a massive fight going on until it's too late, and with that many bodies moving around it's hard to get a description.
*I should mention that the police screwed up on this one and they admit it. It took them far, far too long to arrive on the scene.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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Again, we have another case of an article talking about people talking about handling a situation like this, but again we have no advice as what to actually do.
Maybe I ought to reconsider carrying a dagger or the like with me wherever I go. It's the only way to be sure.
- Pseudo (wanna fight? Bring it on.) Croat
-------------------- "At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History
God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts. Posts: 4578 | From: Sunrise, FL | Registered: Apr 2002
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Again, we have another case of an article talking about people talking about handling a situation like this, but again we have no advice as what to actually do.
Then you must not have read the whole article, which does include a statement from police saying there is no right answer:
quote:Police Insp. Jamie Ewatski suggests there is no standard "right" way for a bystander to react to a dangerous incident. There may be times when it is unwise to try playing the hero, he says.
"It's up to the individual to judge each situation. If there is a risk of violence, or if weapons are involved, it's a tough thing to intervene," he says.
"The best thing people can do is call (police) immediately. But apart from that, it's an individual decision as to what to do. Who knows what was going through those passengers' minds?
Pseudo_Croat, you need to accept that sometimes there are no answers.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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Again, we have another case of an article talking about people talking about handling a situation like this, but again we have no advice as what to actually do.
quote: Police Insp. Jamie Ewatski suggests there is no standard "right" way for a bystander to react to a dangerous incident. There may be times when it is unwise to try playing the hero, he says.
"It's up to the individual to judge each situation. If there is a risk of violence, or if weapons are involved, it's a tough thing to intervene," he says.
"The best thing people can do is call (police) immediately. But apart from that, it's an individual decision as to what to do. Who knows what was going through those passengers' minds?"
Looks like advice to me.
ETA: Spanked by Jenn!
-------------------- Of course this land is dangerous! All of the animals are capably murderous. Especially the penguins.
i'm a figment of my own imagination, sometimes i don't exist Posts: 1099 | From: Kitsap County, WA | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jenn: Then you must not have read the whole article,
I read through the article. And I still think it's poor journalism. Why not just give a list of options that could be used in such a situation instead of just saying "oh, it's up to the individual to act and how they should act"? Most people, when confronted with such a situation, just stand stupidly or cower. Besides, not all of us have a device with which to call the police with on our persons. In order to act on a dangerous situation, one must know both how and when to act. And most of us don't know it.
Forgive me if I sound huffy. I prefer being given specific options rather than a general idea.
- Pseudo_Croat
-------------------- "At all events, people who deny the influence of smaller nations should remember that the Croats have the rest of us by the throats." - Norman Davies, Europe: A History
God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts. Posts: 4578 | From: Sunrise, FL | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Pseudo_Croat: [QB] Why not just give a list of options that could be used in such a situation instead of just saying "oh, it's up to the individual to act and how they should act"?[/qb
The list is:
a) Step in b) Don't step in c) Call for help (can be done in conjunction with both a and b)
quote:Most people, when confronted with such a situation, just stand stupidly or cower.
That would be option b, which is perfectly valid.
quote:Besides, not all of us have a device with which to call the police with on our persons.
In this case you wouldn't have needed one since the bus driver did.
quote:In order to act on a dangerous situation, one must know both how and when to act. And most of us don't know it.
No one ever knows how they will respond to such a situation until they find themselves in it. A newspaper article sure as hell isn't going to help, and anything we say here isn't going to help you either. All you can do is assess the situation and decide if you can help or not. If you feel you can help, then you must decide whether or not you want to. If you feel you cannot help, then you don't. A journalist can't tell you what to do, and neither can we.
There are no specific instructions to give, period. The answer is to think for yourself. I know you have trouble with that, but you do need to understand there is no list of actions, there is no right answer, there is no wrong answer. The statement from the police in the article is the best advice available, whether you like it or not.
ETA: If you really want specific instructions, they simply aren't something that can be published in a paper. If you want to know how to deal with physical altercations, take self defence classes and practice them.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Pseudo_Croat, part of my job is developing work instructions for carrying out certain transactions. We use a flowchart format. It's very visual and easy to use. You follow the arrows from box to box, and every now and then there's a question that determines which way to proceed.
It sounds like you want a flowchart for this situation. There isn't one, and there never will be. That's just not how life works.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jenn: Then you must not have read the whole article,
I read through the article. And I still think it's poor journalism. Why not just give a list of options that could be used in such a situation instead of just saying "oh, it's up to the individual to act and how they should act"?
- Pseudo_Croat
Providing people with lists of appropriate ways to handle problems is not part of journalism.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
But... but... who's going to tell Pseudo_Croat what type of person she is???
-------------------- "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle Posts: 14567 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Up North: One of the passengers has stepped forward. Aparently,of the 10 passengers on the bus, the breakdown is as follows:
1 teen male. 7 young females 2 infants.
So, I'm frankly glad that the passengers *didn't* step in.
That's for sure Posts: 1932 | From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2001
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EDMONTON — A passenger who witnessed last week’s fatal beating of a man on an Edmonton transit bus says he and his fellow riders have been unfairly criticized for not getting involved.
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Maybe I ought to reconsider carrying a dagger or the like with me wherever I go. It's the only way to be sure.
All I can say is if you are coming here and asking for advise in what to do in a situation like this, then leave the dagger at home until you have throughly educated yourself in the laws regarding use of force in your area, and recieved education preferably from a crediable instructor on the proper realistic use of such a daggar, and you have spent many, many hours preparing yourself for what you will do when you have a split second to decide what action your going to take.
-------------------- I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. -- On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs by LTC. Dave Grossman, USA (Ret) Posts: 675 | From: Arizona | Registered: Jun 2003
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