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Author Topic: The "secret dangers" of Vaccines
Cobra4J
Jingle Bell Hock


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(This may be a topic covered before- but, lets look again.)

Some years ago, I was trying to have a conversation with someone about the potential dangers of vaccines. I say trying because the minute I tried telling her she may be wrong she closed me out and literally walked away. She had no time for the alternative view. (It's scary how many people deliberately make themselves ignorant.)

In any case, her concern was for her child and her unborn child. She was worried about all the possible side effects from one vaccine, and now she was told for her child to attend public school she must have numerous vaccines. I don't know if she was worried about parkinson or some other supposed long term effect, but she was concerned.

I remember a study about whooping cough vaccine, and how it apparently did kill and paralyze numerous children - that story is true. I have read reports that say the worry over some vaccine leading to parkinsons or other condition is false - well, believe the study or not, that is up to you.

Fact: before vaccines came along, how many children died or were permanently maimed by polio, measles, small pox, whooping cough, (and the list goes on and on)?

If we add up all the children who have died from alleged vaccine side effects over the last 50 years, and compare that to the number of children who died from just small pox alone in 50 years, what will we find?

People have reason for concern, and investigation, but let us not toss out the vaccine in the name of questionable science.

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DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Yes, vaccines do have certain inherent risks... but the risk is negligible, in my mind, when compared with the risks of NOT recieving them. Is is true with many things in life, this is just another case of risk-gain analysis, and the correct answer is pretty obvious in this particular instance... it continues to baffle me that some people (like the woman you describe above) can't understand that.

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Don Enrico
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A whole lot of information concerning vaccines and immunization is to be found on the websites of the World Health Organisation.

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BeachLife
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There is a particular branch of the Chiropractor community that does not believe in immunizations. It is my understanding that school requiremens and such can be waived, but I'm not sure how the process works.

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
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We have the luxury of not "believing" in immunizations now because of -- immunizations. Nowadays folks can send their children out into the world relatively secure in the knowledge that they're not going to catch, for intance, measles, because nobody around has any measles for them to catch. The majority of folks who are immunized provide a kind of buffer for the minority who are not.

If the majority of folks were to stop immunizing their children, though, it would only take one kid catching measles to infect a whole school.

Nonny

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petre
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
There is a particular branch of the Chiropractor community that does not believe in immunizations. It is my understanding that school requiremens and such can be waived, but I'm not sure how the process works.

My wife's chiropractor has a copy of "The Poisoned Needle" in his waiting room, which seems to go into the dangers of vaccines. I forget what other items I've seen there too, but I definately have the impression that he's in that branch.
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Don Enrico
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quote:
Originally posted by Nonny Mouse, Seedling Hugger:
We have the luxury of not "believing" in immunizations now because of -- immunizations. Nowadays folks can send their children out into the world relatively secure in the knowledge that they're not going to catch, for intance, measles, because nobody around has any measles for them to catch. The majority of folks who are immunized provide a kind of buffer for the minority who are not.

If the majority of folks were to stop immunizing their children, though, it would only take one kid catching measles to infect a whole school.

Nonny

Some days ago a toddler in Frankfurt, Germany, died from measles. [Frown]

In the aftermath of that, I read that the immunization quotient in Germany is about 75 %. In the US, thanks to an immunization quotient of over 95 %, measles are virutally extinct.

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Mallow
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Among other things, I'm presently employed in inserting needed corrections in editions of some genealogies (rural East Coast Canada) that contain data back to the 1700s.

Reading along as I go, I've come across items relevant to this topic.

In 1862, an outbreak of diptheria: four children dead in one family in a six week period, three children dead in another family over two months, scattered deaths throughout the (tiny) community, same time period, including several people in their twenties.

Isolated cases of smallpox among sailors who travelled.

Throughout the 1800s and early 1900s, many child deaths attributed to whooping cough, measles, scarlet fever, and of course, tuberculosis.

Very few families managed to bring all their offspring to maturity. Of course, there were other causes of death that immunization or testing (TB) does not cover, such as typhoid fever, fevers in general, convulsions, drowning (an astounding number of people drowned, young and old), and assorted accidents.

Immunization good, anti-immunizers taking big risks.

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DawnStorm
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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My mother got whooping cough when she was a kid; from what she said she wouldn't wish it on her worst enemy. FWIW, pet owners get the same rhetoric as well. I once asked my vet about the vaccine controversy and the method of looking at immunity levels before administering another vaccine. He told me that the risk of cancer at the injection site was miniscule, and that he at least doesn't always vaccinate in the same place. Furthermore, some pet shots last 2-3 years and of course that means less vaccination anyway. I was just curious, and of course if I have a question about my pets' health I'm gonna ask the vet. Bottom line: my pets are all up to date on their shots and I wouldn't have it any other way.
The fact that we live in countries where we can question vaccines (rightly or wrongly) oughta tell the anti-vaccine types something. [Roll Eyes]

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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My aunt died as a baby due to complications (meningitis) from a vaccine. I would not be surprised if the vaccines used on her in the Soviet Union were more dangerous than modern American vaccines, but still, there is a risk.

As people have said, on the whole, vaccines have many more benefits than risks. However, when everyone else is already vaccinated, it may be in one's best interest not to get vaccines.

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Mistletoey Chloe
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But what if everyone thinks that way? There are, for instance, children with compromised immune systems who cannot be vaccinated: if you don't vaccinate your healthy child, counting on everyone else to do so instead, you might be endangering not just your own child, but other children who cannot be vaccinated.

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Don Enrico
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quote:
Originally posted by Troodon:
My aunt died as a baby due to complications (meningitis) from a vaccine. I would not be surprised if the vaccines used on her in the Soviet Union were more dangerous than modern American vaccines, but still, there is a risk.

Not questioning your case, but in my line of work I get to see some alledeged cases of vaccine induced illnesses. Most of them (all of the ones I had to do with) turn out not to be vaccine induced. When young children suffer from brain deseases, parents (understanbley) tend to blaim the vaccines. Medical investigations usually lead to the desease being genetic.

So, there are risks, but most deseases/deaths blaimed on vaccines have another cause.

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My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear

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Hell's Granny
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quote:
Originally posted by Don Enrico:

Some days ago a toddler in Frankfurt, Germany, died from measles. [Frown]

Measles can cuase not just death, but also permanent nerve damage, resulting in deafness and/or blindness.
I have poor eyesight, mostly due to having a nearly blind right eye from a very early age. The many specialists and opticians that I've seen can't tell me exactly what caused the damage to the nerves and retina, but they all agreed that it could have been due to the severe attack of measles I had at 2 months old - an attack that made me so ill that I was in hospital for 10 days.
Older, healthy kids can sail through measles; but for small babies and the congenitally weak, it can be devastating.

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Crono
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I know someone who holds very strong anti-vaccination beliefs, and she refuses to get any vaccinations for her newborn child. She is generally opposed to any kind of medical intervention and prefers to let things happen naturally. She has constantly touted the dangers of vaccinations and claims that it is based on research that she has done. She has even gone as far as to say that diseases like smallpox and polio were on the decline before they were being vaccinated and would have fallen from existence even if vaccinations had never taken place.

I haven't seen any of her sources, but I remain skeptical of her assertions. Letting someone catch a disease hardly seems like a healthy alternative. The chances of being killed by complications with a vaccine seem far smaller than that of catching many diseases, and there is the additional possibility that it could be spread to others.

However, like Nonny said, many people can get away with not being vaccinated simply because so many other people have been vaccinated. It would only become a problem if too much of the population stopped being vaccinated.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Crono:
many people can get away with not being vaccinated simply because so many other people have been vaccinated. It would only become a problem if too much of the population stopped being vaccinated.

...which is why you have to be vaccinated before you attend school. Hope your friend plans to homeschool her kid, 'cause he ain't getting into a public or responsible private school without (at a minimum) DPT and MMR.

Four Kitties

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rotten little boys
The Red and the Green Stamps


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If I could have been vacinated against chicken pox, I never would have broke out in shingles 30 years later.

This outbreak happened 7 months ago and still hurts at times and is most likely the source of my depression according to researchers.

I hate tetnaus shots. The side of my body that recieves the shot always swells up and I feel misrable for days afterward. But lock jaw tends to kill, so I will put up with the tetnaus shot.

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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To highjack a wee bit: the chicken pox vaccine was reported at merely 50% effective when my daughter was getting all of her shots, so I opted to not get it (it is not required for children in our school district yet), and it requires (-ed) a booster every 10 years, much like a tetanus shot. My reasoning is that chicken pox, when you are a little kid, is a huge pain, but, very rarely, is it much more than that (yes, I know that some children have very bad symptoms, but my child is healthy, and my experience with the pox was not awful). However, thinking ahead, and if she contracted chicken pox as an adult, or, even worse, as a pregnant adult, the results could have been disasterous. So I rolled the dice and took my chances. She got chicken pox last year, and handled it like a trooper.

RLB, I don't think the vaccine would save you from shingles, though I may be wrong about that.

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
To highjack a wee bit: the chicken pox vaccine was reported at merely 50% effective when my daughter was getting all of her shots, so I opted to not get it (it is not required for children in our school district yet), and it requires (-ed) a booster every 10 years, much like a tetanus shot. My reasoning is that chicken pox, when you are a little kid, is a huge pain, but, very rarely, is it much more than that (yes, I know that some children have very bad symptoms, but my child is healthy, and my experience with the pox was not awful). However, thinking ahead, and if she contracted chicken pox as an adult, or, even worse, as a pregnant adult, the results could have been disasterous. So I rolled the dice and took my chances. She got chicken pox last year, and handled it like a trooper.

My son got chicken pox just after the vaccine hit the market and before I had a chance to get him vaccinated. No big deal, he did fine. However, he passed it on to my husband who had a horrible time with it. Interesting thing is my husband swears he had chicken pox as a child.

quote:
RLB, I don't think the vaccine would save you from shingles, though I may be wrong about that.

It's actually the chicken pox and shingles vaccine because both are caused by the varicella-zoster Virus.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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nahemah
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Apparently if you have a really mild dose of chicken pox it is possible to contract it again.

I was exposed to it when I was a child but only had one spot show up on my arm- so I kind of figured I had an immunity to it or something.

Then last year (I was 18) I came down with chicken pox, and it was terrible. I was really ill for about a week, and the spots lasted three weeks. And worst of all, despite the fact I didn't scratch, I was still left with numerous scars.

I would really recommend the vaccine, even if it is only 50% effective because exposure as a child isn't always enough and it sucks to get it as an adult

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DawnStorm
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by nahemah:
Apparently if you have a really mild dose of chicken pox it is possible to contract it again.


Interesting.
I had it when I about 4 or so, and I was covered from head to toe (literally!) in spots.
I'm hoping I don't get shingles in later life; it's bad enough getting the occassional cold sore now. [Frown] My mom remembers that everyone in my nursery class got it during the summer, whereas I got it in the winter. I remember I couldn't go out and play in the snow. [Frown]

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mrs.hi-c clown fishies
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I feel the same way as angelrdr does about the pox. Maybe they could put an addendum on the requirement that if a kid doesn't get chicken pox at a certain age, maybe they should get vaccinated.

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Mosherette
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There is talk here of a mumps epidemic because many people were terrified of "giving" their children autism from the MMR* vaccine. There are queues and queues of students lining up to be vaccinated - I believe students are being offered the vaccination because mumps is one of those diseases that flourishes in a closed environment such as a hall of residence.

I am a little concerned because measles is on the increase for the same reason. I've never had measles (the vacicnation hadn't been developed when I was a child) and I don't know if measles is one of those diseases that is more serious in adults than children. Does anyone know if I should get myself vaccinated?

My father's brother died of polio in 1949. I had whooping cough when I was very young and I don't remember it, but my mother says that at one point there was fear for my life. I also suffered badly with mumps, and I remember that far too well [Frown]

My boyfriend has never had chickenpox, despite being sent to the house of every classmate with it when he was a little boy!

*Measles, mumps and rubella.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by DawnStorm:
I had it when I about 4 or so, and I was covered from head to toe (literally!) in spots.
I'm hoping I don't get shingles in later life; it's bad enough getting the occassional cold sore now. [Frown] My mom remembers that everyone in my nursery class got it during the summer, whereas I got it in the winter. I remember I couldn't go out and play in the snow. [Frown]

Trust me, it's better to get it in the winter than in the summer. Chicken pox + prickly heat = insanity-inducing itching past the point of pain.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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Gale
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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In the last few years, Texas has a pertussis (whooping cough) epidemic in some counties because of lack of vaccinations:

Texas’ low immunization rates have contributed to several widespread occurrences of preventable childhood illnesses, such as substantial measles outbreaks in Dallas and Houston between 1988 and 1992. These involved a total of 9,400 measles cases, 26 resulting in death. The cases represented more than $8.5 million in increased medical costs for public and private health care providers. The vaccines needed to immunize these children against measles would have cost $12,000.[8]

This measles outbreak is also cited by health officials as an example of a disease that started in one city (Houston) and eventually spread nationwide, causing 55,000 cases and 120 deaths.[9] Although data from the TDH indicate that there has not been another substantial measles outbreak in the state since this period, measles can easily reappear without continued vaccination efforts.[10]

More recently, whooping cough, another vaccine-preventable disease, has reappeared in Texas. Whooping cough can lead to pneumonia, seizures, brain damage and even death. In 2001, 615 cases of whooping cough, five resulting in death, were reported in 70 Texas counties, the largest number of such cases in a year since 1968.[11] As of September 2002, 725 more cases and four more deaths had been reported throughout the state. TDH has urged families to make sure that their children are vaccinated against this deadly childhood disease.[12]

http://www.window.state.tx.us/etexas2003/hhs05.html

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wee wifey
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quote:
Originally posted by mosherette:

I've never had measles (the vacicnation hadn't been developed when I was a child)

are you sure? because if you haven't then neither have I, and I thought I had [Confused]

little miss

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once known as little miss

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Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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It was available in the UK back the early 70's - I had it, and had measles very mildly. My younger brother, who didn't get the jab nearly died.
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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by mosherette:
I am a little concerned because measles is on the increase for the same reason. I've never had measles (the vacicnation hadn't been developed when I was a child) and I don't know if measles is one of those diseases that is more serious in adults than children. Does anyone know if I should get myself vaccinated?

Mosh, the vaccine was introduced in 1963, so I don't know why you didn't get it as a child. It can't hurt you to get it now, but unless you work in a school or hospital you are not at high risk. If you ever want to get pregnant, you should be vaccinated first -- measles during pregnancy can cause miscarriage, premature birth, and low birthweight. Complications are higher among children under age 5 and adults over age 20. Complications, though rarer in the US/UK than in developing nations, can include encephalitis, pneumonia, and blindness. According to the CDC, measles is the leading cause of blindness in African children and kills almost 1 million children worldwide each year.

Get vaccinated.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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It wasn't licensed for use in the UK until 1968, and for a number of years afterwards, it was "optional" rather than "reccommended", hence my brother (who was born in 1977)and my sister (b. 1974) didn't get, although I (b. 1972) did. Never did work out why mum only bothered with me.
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Crono
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quote:
Originally posted by Four Kitties in the arborvitae:
quote:
Originally posted by Crono:
many people can get away with not being vaccinated simply because so many other people have been vaccinated. It would only become a problem if too much of the population stopped being vaccinated.

...which is why you have to be vaccinated before you attend school. Hope your friend plans to homeschool her kid, 'cause he ain't getting into a public or responsible private school without (at a minimum) DPT and MMR.

Four Kitties

She was planning on homeschooling her children, although she was complaining about the vaccination requirement to enroll in public school anyway.

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Four Kitties
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Crono:
She was planning on homeschooling her children, although she was complaining about the vaccination requirement to enroll in public school anyway.

Okay. And will they ever be going to college? Because many/most residential colleges require vaccinations as well.

Four Kitties

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If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales?

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lynnejanet
Happy Holly Days


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When my first was an infant (9+ years ago - eek!) I attended a local La Leche League breastfeeding support group, and many of the women there had opted against vaccinating their babies, because of the supposed health risks. I read quite a few books at that time, and I just couldn't buy into the whole vaccines=autism/weak immune systems/autoimmune disorders thing. I do respect the rights of parents to make the decision not to vaccinate their children, though.
However, because of the reading that I had done, I was able to recognize that our little guy had an adverse reaction to the pertussis vaccine (as had my brother, many years before). We decided not to get any of the follow-up pertussis vaccines, and we had no trouble registering him in preschool or kindergarten. When the new pertussis vaccine came out (I think he was 5 at the time) we had him innolculated, with no problems.

Because of my own experiences, I'm not entirely convinced of the universal effectiveness of vaccines, anyway. I had the full compliment of vaccines when I was an infant, and still managed to get measles, mumps, and whooping cough. I suppose that it could be argued that I would have been even sicker without the vaccines, but the whooping cough episode was bad enough that I had to be admitted to hospital. I've also had chicken pox three times. I've been told that I have a "cell-mediated immune deficiency" (whatever that means) so perhaps I'm not a great anecdotal example.

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lynne"insert appropriate punny phrase here"janet

Posts: 1460 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
rotten little boys
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Originally posted by DawnStorm:
[/qb][/QUOTE]Interesting.
I had it when I about 4 or so, and I was covered from head to toe (literally!) in spots.
I'm hoping I don't get shingles in later life; it's bad enough getting the occassional cold sore now. [/QB][/QUOTE]


I would not worry about it much. It is actually rare to break out with shingles and it has certain triggers.

And I thought a cold sore, no, I am certain that cold sores are a form of the herpes virus which is related to chicken pox.

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rotten little boys
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Ok, not wanting to vacinate because something only works 50% of the time is like not buckling up 50% of the time.

I don't understand why you choose not to utilize the vacine?

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Faeriefeet
I Saw Three Shipments


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We just had a guest speaker in our early childhood collaboration class tonight who spoke (very in depth, and long winded-ly) about autism. According to her, research is now showing that there's some kind of correlation between the vacs and the autism, however, it's not the vaccinations themselves.

There's some kind of mercury-like stuff that they used to put in the vacs to give them a longer shelf life--them-a-something or another. I'll have to look it up. Anyway, that them-a-something was what was causing the problem and they've quit using it. They haven't made them throw out whatevers left of it though, so if you're getting your babies vacs, make sure to ask if they still use vaccinations with the them-a-stuff...uh...I'll go look that up now.

**Edited to add---Thimerosol**

Posts: 54 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Joseph Z
Xboxing Day


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These days, we don't use vaccines anymore except for special cases like the Flu or Bird Flu or whatever.

You can find natural cures in the form of pills and drops at your local pharmacy off the shelves for under $10 US. When I had the flu, I just took Dayquill and Nyquill for 5 days and was cured.

If your child is sick, they have Pedialyte drinks available for the younglin.

I don't trust Flu vaccines I won't bother going.

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Joseph Z

Posts: 1356 | From: Woodbridge, VA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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