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lola
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by brick:
I have no idea what a size 8 means, but what I do know is that a healthy weight for a person who is 5'5" is 110-150, based on a Body Mass Index calculation. I would guess Kate Winslet is flirting with the high end, if not outside, of the healthy range.

Why aren't there models that look more like us? Because we're obese.

Although it is detrimental for the predilections of those who idealize the underweight to color the body maintenance habits of adolescents, it does them no service to encourage them to "learn to love themselves" at any shape.

My weight usually hovers at about 140 to 155 and I'm 5'5, so that means that I'm a little over weight according to that website. The thing is that I'm a big boned girl, I have a wide hips, my waste is wide, I have wide shoulders and my bra size is a 38c(sorry if this seems like TMI, but I want to make a point). If I got down to 114, I'd look like I was dying of cancer,there'd bones sticking out everywhere, it wouldn't be a good look for me . My body is firm and in good shape and I'm happy with the way that I look and the weight that I'am.

Yes Brick, I agree with you that we have to show kids healthy images of people but that may mean showing kids images of women like Miss Winslet (from the articles that I've read she is 5'7), Mia Tyler (Here is a link to a fan websithttp://www.geocities.com/miatylerfan/pix.htmle), Kate Dillion and Carrie Ottis (both "plus" size models).

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Rondette
The Red and the Green Stamps


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i've been about 5'11" since I was 14, I have lost 2 stone (28 pounds) in the last year, I am now just in the healthy range, according to that BMI thing.

I didn't set out to lose the weight, it never really bothered me in the first place. I stopped reading girl magazines (yes they are very bad for your ego!) and eat healthily. I think as long as you eat healthily and are fairly fit, shape should never be an issue. It took me a long time to become used to the fact that I will never have supermodel proportions, but now I have it means I spend alot less time worrying about how I look, figure wise.

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Death by Autopsy - Cloned Ranger
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by lola:
[QUOTE]
What I don't get is if you looked at the women who were considered sexy and beautiful 30, 40 years ago i.e Marilyn Monroe, Sophia Loren, Ann-Margret, Raquel Welch, Jayne Mansfield etc. they all had to be a size 10 or 12.And they had boobs, hips, and butts.

Like Twiggy?!
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lola
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Yes Death, there was Twiggy

But there was also women like Raquel Welch, Marylin Monroe etc....etc....

I seemed like Twiggy was in the minority.

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Mosherette
Deck the Malls


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Didn't Marilyn have a 24-inch waist? That puts her at a UK size eight, I think, which is very tiny indeed (most models are a UK size 8). Marilyn may have had boobs and a bum, but she wasn't exactly a *big* girl.

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Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave

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lola
The Red and the Green Stamps


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The story that we got here was that she was an American size 12, which in Miss Monroe's era it was fashionable to be a size 12, now if your a size 12 your "plus size".

I have from some that she was a size 12 and I have heard from others that she wasn't. [Confused]

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by lola:
The story that we got here was that she was an American size 12, which in Miss Monroe's era it was fashionable to be a size 12, now if your a size 12 your "plus size".

I have from some that she was a size 12 and I have heard from others that she wasn't. [Confused]

What I have heard is that the sizing itself is different now. In other words someone who bought a size 12 dress in 1960 would in today's sizing be a size 8.

In Monroe's era a size 8 was fashionable...in our day how many famous actresses do you know who would even admit to be size 6?

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Jolypha
Deck the Malls


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Men are also feeling pressure to measure up to a certain image. The other day a co-worker of my male friend told him he would never get married unless he lost weight and got muscles.

I have had people tell me if I lose more weight I'll get a man, or if I wear more makeup I'll get a man, or if I get a career I'll get a man.

Ridiculous.

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DrFraud
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Aimee Evilratty:
Well, let's see, the magazine is telling us in an article that people shouldn't diet, yet they bombard their readers with the message that you have to be skinny to be pretty? Am I the only one who sees what's wrong with this picture? Honestly... It's because of this crap in the media that my little sister, who's skinnier that I am, thinks she's fat. I'm serious. She does, and it drives me up the freaking wall.

It's because of this crap that my half-sister, who's waaaaaay skinnier than I am, quit taking dance classes: all o' the stick-skinny, probably-jealous fellow students who told her she was "too fat" to be a professional dancer. If she weighs much more than 150, I'll eat my DD titties. (I've always wanted a boob-reduction job anyway... [Wink] )

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"Danger is a good teacher, and makes apt scholars. So are disgrace, defeat, exposure to immediate scorn and laughter."
- William Hazlitt; _Table-Talk: Essays On Men And Manners_

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Lindiglo
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:


Beach...happy birthday for whenever I missed it...Life!

Lind"Thanks, it was about 5 months ago!"iglo

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A woman's dress should be like a barbed-wire fence: serving its purpose without obstructing the view.
-Sophia Loren

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Sparverius
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by brick:
I have no idea what a size 8 means, but what I do know is that a healthy weight for a person who is 5'5" is 110-150, based on a Body Mass Index calculation. I would guess Kate Winslet is flirting with the high end, if not outside, of the healthy range.

Why aren't there models that look more like us? Because we're obese.

Although it is detrimental for the predilections of those who idealize the underweight to color the body maintenance habits of adolescents, it does them no service to encourage them to "learn to love themselves" at any shape.

Why, yes, it's much healthier to make sure that, if they're fat, they're also unhappy and despised by society.
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lola
The Red and the Green Stamps


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What is wrong with poor Kate! She is so beautiful, it seems that Harper's is following in GQ's footsteps. This is from Page 6 in today's NY Post

Kate's head. The body?


HARPER'S Bazaar is denying a story in yesterday's Women's Wear Daily that a body double was used for its cover photo of Kate Winslet . Under the headline "Winslet's Head on Harper's Body," the trade paper reported: "Just days after British GQ confessed to digitally slimming [Winslet] down in its pages, Harper's Bazaar has admitted that its January cover is actually Winslet's head grafted onto fashion director Mary Alice Stephenson's body. A magazine spokesman says Winslet was originally shot against a white background; when editor Glenda Bailey later decided she wanted a gold background instead, Stephenson stood in. (Strands of hair on Winslet's neck in the photo likely conceal the traces of the seam.)" But contacted by PAGE SIX, Scott Currie, the Harper's Bazaar rep who spoke to WWD, backtracked. "I never admitted anything," Currie told us. "I said that Mary Alice stood in to get the lighting right." Stephenson insisted, with a laugh, "I know my body - and that ain't it." A Fairchild spokeswoman said, "We are confident of our sources and we stand by our story."


[Eek!]

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brick
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Sparverius:
quote:
Originally posted by brick:
I have no idea what a size 8 means, but what I do know is that a healthy weight for a person who is 5'5" is 110-150, based on a Body Mass Index calculation. I would guess Kate Winslet is flirting with the high end, if not outside, of the healthy range.

Why aren't there models that look more like us? Because we're obese.

Although it is detrimental for the predilections of those who idealize the underweight to color the body maintenance habits of adolescents, it does them no service to encourage them to "learn to love themselves" at any shape.

Why, yes, it's much healthier to make sure that, if they're fat, they're also unhappy and despised by society.
I think there's a third option, isn't there?

Look, our adolescents need us, desperately, to guide them to a healthy, happy life. They deserve to benefit from our collective wisdom on matters of body, mind, and conscience. We don't have to get hysterical, we can educate.

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Barbara's page on Marilyn's dress size:

Dressed to Fill

Apparently the "myth" is that she was modern US size 16; at her maximum weight she might well have been a modern US size 12 (British size 16, apparently).

quote:
HARPER'S Bazaar is denying a story in yesterday's Women's Wear Daily that a body double was used for its cover photo of Kate Winslet .
Harper's version (that the paper got the wrong end of the stick, and all they were doing was testing the lighting for the new background) makes far more sense than the "switched bodies" one - why would you need to paste a new body in to change the background? And surely it would be obvious, at least to the subject, that it had been done, and that could cause trouble.
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Sparverius
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by brick:
[QUOTE]Look, our adolescents need us, desperately, to guide them to a healthy, happy life. They deserve to benefit from our collective wisdom on matters of body, mind, and conscience. We don't have to get hysterical, we can educate.

First of all, I don't necessarily agree that all people who are a few pounds overweight are going to be dead before they're 40 (point in fact: my father, desperately overweight, who's buried most of his friends.) For a jaundiced view on the "scientific evidence" on the dangers of obesity, read the book Never Too Thin.

Secondly, don't kid yourself that the current view of plump women (that is, "Ewww, disgusting") will be useful in helping girls lose weight. Depression, loneliness and self-disgust are powerful motivators to binge eat.

Finally, there's a nice rosy view that "all you have to do is eat sensibly and get a little exercise and you'll be thin". This is a bald-faced lie - you may be in better shape, but 95% of people can do the "sensible" thing, and not end up looking like a cover girl. I'm sure Kate Winslet has plenty of incentive to "eat sensibly", as well as a stable of nutritionists, and personal trainers, and SHE'S not as thin as the magazines want her to be. If you're not genetically programmed to be a twig, "sensible" doesn't get you there.

So, what will girls do? Continue to eat and exercise "sensibly". while listening to boys snigger about what "dogs" they are if they're not skin and bones? Or say, "I don't give a damn about whether it's healthy, I'll smoke, and take diet pills, and stick my finger down my throat to vomit if that fails?"

According to your premise, we would be able to cure drug addiction, alcoholism, and smoking simply by telling people who do these things "you're disgusting, and horrible, and no one will love you unless you stop". Actually, we've tried that - worked really well, hasn't it?

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Ms Stressa, with ratted hair
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by brick:
Although it is detrimental for the predilections of those who idealize the underweight to color the body maintenance habits of adolescents, it does them no service to encourage them to "learn to love themselves" at any shape.

Bullsh*t.

It is highly unlikely that a person will change or improve their health habits if they do not love themselves and value themselves, regardless of their shape.

So it makes sense to encourage people to love and accept themselves -- in any shape -- so that any improvements they make in their health and physical fitness are also complemented by their mental well being.

(And before you ask something snarky, I'm 5'9", 155 lbs and I do excercise, thank you.)

Whoops - must have hit one of my pet peeves - Stressa

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brick
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ms Stressa, with ratted hair:
quote:
Originally posted by brick:
Although it is detrimental for the predilections of those who idealize the underweight to color the body maintenance habits of adolescents, it does them no service to encourage them to "learn to love themselves" at any shape.

Bullsh*t.

It is highly unlikely that a person will change or improve their health habits if they do not love themselves and value themselves, regardless of their shape.

So it makes sense to encourage people to love and accept themselves -- in any shape -- so that any improvements they make in their health and physical fitness are also complemented by their mental well being.

(And before you ask something snarky, I'm 5'9", 155 lbs and I do excercise, thank you.)

Whoops - must have hit one of my pet peeves - Stressa

I completely agree. I might better have said, "learn to love their shape, helpless to improve it," except that's not what I hear people saying. Your point is right on, though.
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brick
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Sparverius:
First of all, I don't necessarily agree that all people who are a few pounds overweight are going to be dead before they're 40

I certainly wouldn't agree with a statement like that either.

quote:

Secondly, don't kid yourself that the current view of plump women (that is, "Ewww, disgusting") will be useful in helping girls lose weight.

You're right, it's not helping. I raise the issue in the context of this thread not to support pop-culture imagery but to point out that when we attack this imagery to address the problem of underweight girls we must tread carefully; it is a ticklish task to say "your body doesn't need to be shaped like that" without saying "your body is OK no matter what it is shaped like." That is why it is so important for us to take an active approach that will help--an involved discussion on the importance of maintaining self-esteem while avoiding obesity.

quote:

Finally, there's a nice rosy view that "all you have to do is eat sensibly and get a little exercise and you'll be thin". This is a bald-faced lie - you may be in better shape, but 95% of people can do the "sensible" thing, and not end up looking like a cover girl.

Yes, this is among the most destructive lies of all. For most of us, it is not anywhere near that simple. All the more reason that it takes the type of instruction, commitment, and support from us that developing the mind and spirit takes.

quote:

According to your premise, we would be able to cure drug addiction, alcoholism, and smoking simply by telling people who do these things "you're disgusting, and horrible, and no one will love you unless you stop". Actually, we've tried that - worked really well, hasn't it?

My premise lies nowhere near telling anyone she is disgusting or horrible, for any reason. I'm not saying we can cure any of this, but we should explain to adolescents the dangers of drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and obesity, and give them all we can to help them make informed decisions about how to live their lives.
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Snow Angelwings
The Red and the Green Stamps


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WHY is everyone always carrying on about Kate Winslet's weight? The woman isn't even close to being fat. She has a gorgeous, lovely body that I think is ten thousand times hotter than a toothpick supermodel's. Since when did having boobs, a butt, and sweet curves equate to being overweight?
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Plindsey88
The Red and the Green Stamps


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A lot of the women models out there look the way that they do naturally... Not all of them are anorexic or touched up... It is just as mean spirited to demean the way that they look as it is to pick on more shapely women... I think everyone should do there best to be fit, but genetics does come into play, and people are ususally born with a tendency towards one body type or another.... As long as you are healthy within your predetermined body type, I don't see why slim or plump women should get a bad rap... Most guys can go either way (within reason)...
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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Snow Angelwings:
WHY is everyone always carrying on about Kate Winslet's weight? The woman isn't even close to being fat. She has a gorgeous, lovely body that I think is ten thousand times hotter than a toothpick supermodel's. Since when did having boobs, a butt, and sweet curves equate to being overweight?

This fetish for scrawny women is a fairly modern thing. Look at Rubens' paintings; look at the Venus de Milo; look at Titian and Rembrant.

I prefer a woman who looks like a woman not like a boy carrying plums in his shirt pocket, thank you.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Brandi
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:

I prefer a woman who looks like a woman not like a boy carrying plums in his shirt pocket, thank you.

 -
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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Brandi:
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:

I prefer a woman who looks like a woman not like a boy carrying plums in his shirt pocket, thank you.

 -
Exactly! I can't be sure what this is supposed to be.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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judical
Deck the Malls


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Ugh. Fashion photographers are so out of touch with how the rest of the world sees beauty anyway.
And does that GQ photo of Kate Winslet look sort of out-of-proportion to anyone else? It did to me.
Photo manipulation always looks fake. [Embarrassed]

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StarlandVocalBand
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Brandi:
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:

I prefer a woman who looks like a woman not like a boy carrying plums in his shirt pocket, thank you.

 -
I can't get to that link. Is this a transgendered person who has transitioned from male to female, or a biological woman with some serious hormone imbalances, or some kind of publicity stunt?
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Cynestria
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by StarlandVocalBand:
I can't get to that link. Is this a transgendered person who has transitioned from male to female, or a biological woman with some serious hormone imbalances, or some kind of publicity stunt?

It's a fashion shoot. A man wearing prosthetic breasts. The whole 'designers with no concept of reality' again.
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StarlandVocalBand
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Cynestria, world's cutest assassin:
quote:
Originally posted by StarlandVocalBand:
I can't get to that link. Is this a transgendered person who has transitioned from male to female, or a biological woman with some serious hormone imbalances, or some kind of publicity stunt?

It's a fashion shoot. A man wearing prosthetic breasts. The whole 'designers with no concept of reality' again.
So my third choice was right, then. Hm.

That guy looks eerily like my high-school World Civilization teacher, too. I predict some odd dreams ahead.

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Brandi
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Here's the article that that picture came from.

[BTW, I thought we discussed this at some point in the photo board or someplace?]

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vampyrviolia
Happy Holly Days


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I like Kate Winslett, I think she looks fine

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Hey, check out my dads website -- www.eastcountyhwy.com
He grooms dogs too.

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Archie2K
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Wait for me! I got here late!

This is a topic I fell very strongly about. While I think outer appearance shouldn't matter, I finbd it does. To an extent anyway. If someone who is overweight loses some weight, they often look infinately better, and no doubt feel it too. I have lost quite a bit of weight in the past and it was such a confidence lifter. However I had tried to lose weight whilst depressed and ended up becoming obsessive and dveeloping anorexia.

So my point is, losing weight is generally good, but only if you are feeling good about yourself inb the first place and just want to lose a bit of weight. Trying to attain impossible goals set my models usually just makes you more miserable when you fail to hit those impossible goals. And anyway, no matter how good you look, if you are constantly worrying about it then no-one will like you anyway.

Like most things in life, it's all about balance.

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Vox populi vox canem

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lola
The Red and the Green Stamps


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What about young boys in tutus [Big Grin]
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Elfant
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Beh. That BMI calculator doesn't take muscle into account. According to it, my boyfriend, a university level defensive lineman who coaches two high school teams and does personal training in his spare time and is probably the fittest person I know, is borderline between Obesity II and Extremely Obese. Yet it says that I am on the low end of normal, even though my doctor seems to think I should lose up to 20 pounds. It all depends on your own body shape and build, and charts like that are more harm than good.
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Spam & Cookies-mmm
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Elfant:
Beh. That BMI calculator doesn't take muscle into account. According to it, my boyfriend, a university level defensive lineman who coaches two high school teams and does personal training in his spare time and is probably the fittest person I know, is borderline between Obesity II and Extremely Obese.

Does the gubmint think you're fat?

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There's a new snopes message board!

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brick
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Elfant:
Beh. That BMI calculator doesn't take muscle into account. According to it, my boyfriend, a university level defensive lineman who coaches two high school teams and does personal training in his spare time and is probably the fittest person I know, is borderline between Obesity II and Extremely Obese. Yet it says that I am on the low end of normal, even though my doctor seems to think I should lose up to 20 pounds. It all depends on your own body shape and build, and charts like that are more harm than good.

I disagree. We don't have to worry about your boyfriend being misled by the overly simplistic BMI calculation. Expert exercisers like him generally have a much better understanding of their fitness levels than most people, and realize that they must correct for muscle mass. But as an easy, inexpensive way for the average person to ballpark his body fat, I think it does more good than harm.
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Elfant
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by brick:
But as an easy, inexpensive way for the average person to ballpark his body fat, I think it does more good than harm.

I see what you're saying, I just think that there are people who don't fit into that chart, whether due to their bone structure or natural build or whatever, who could be misled.

I suspect that Kate Winslet has more muscle than you are giving her credit for, yet you pointed out that according to the chart, she's nearing overweight.

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