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Author Topic: Vicious Breed Dogs?
JR
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Morrigan:
And the reason for using a kennel club is so the breed can be kept as pure as possible-hopefully like it was when it was actually used for something, if it's still not.

Which is why there is the ARV (American Rottweiler Verein), because the AKC is screwing up the breed.

Here's what happens. The KC system is devoted to show dogs/"confirmation", not temperament or ability. Then what happens is that a particular quality is declared good... say narrowness in German Shepherds or domed skulls in spaniels. So breeders start breeding to exagerate those features and win more. The more they win, the more their dogs will be bred, so it's a vicious circle.. and the German Shepherds and spaniels started going insane because their skulls were so exagerated.

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Morrigan
Happy Holly Days


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Narrowness, JR? How about the crippled backends? And the collies with their narrow, long heads that were never that way?

Morrigan

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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening

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JR
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Morrigan:
Narrowness, JR? How about the crippled backends? And the collies with their narrow, long heads that were never that way?

I wasn't doing a complete catalogue of over-breeding induced flaws, just a couple of examples. [Smile]

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Semper ubi sub ubi

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nailbunny
Oh Tanning Bomb


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So, has this thread been offically highjacked? Because i have a lot to say on the "show ring" subject. [Big Grin]


Honestly, i have to say it's a bigger exhibitor problem than the kennel club in general. If more people were in it for the "all around dog", i think there would be less problems. i see too many people in the show ring to win ribbons, that's all they care about.

Such as in my breed, people call it a "head" breed, exhibitors seem to think "the bigger the head the better!". Instead of breeders looking to job/function for breeding guidelines, they typically look to what's winning in the showring. i'm not saying that all breeders do this, but most do. That's the main problem i see. i do not adovate the fighting of dogs, but, how many Staffordshire bull terriers could actually win a match? How about American Staffordshire terriers? How many show Collies spend their day herding/working? How many American Cocker Spaniels spend a full day in the field? What about Siberian Huskies? Let's see a show huskie spend the day in front of a sled. Not many breeds can do now, what they were originally bred for. And that is what i see as the downfall for any breed.

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i'm not mean, you're just a sissy.

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DawnStorm
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by nailbunny:
So, has this thread been offically highjacked? Because i have a lot to say on the "show ring" subject. [Big Grin]


Honestly, i have to say it's a bigger exhibitor problem than the kennel club in general. If more people were in it for the "all around dog", i think there would be less problems. i see too many people in the show ring to win ribbons, that's all they care about.

Such as in my breed, people call it a "head" breed, exhibitors seem to think "the bigger the head the better!". Instead of breeders looking to job/function for breeding guidelines, they typically look to what's winning in the showring. i'm not saying that all breeders do this, but most do. That's the main problem i see. i do not adovate the fighting of dogs, but, how many Staffordshire bull terriers could actually win a match? How about American Staffordshire terriers? How many show Collies spend their day herding/working? How many American Cocker Spaniels spend a full day in the field? What about Siberian Huskies? Let's see a show huskie spend the day in front of a sled. Not many breeds can do now, what they were originally bred for. And that is what i see as the downfall for any breed.

I remember the broo-ha-ha surrounding the AKC's acceptance of the Border Collie back in the early 90s--the Washington Post had a whole article on it in fact.
I think the United KC has a better idea: breeding for form and function as opposed to winning a beauty contest.

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by glitter_sufc:
Are German Shepherds and Alsatians the *exact* same breed? Or is there a distinction? Also are short-haired ones and long-haired ones the same apart from the hair?


I think that the long-haired version is one of the three Belgian Shepherd breeds (Teuverein or Mallenois). "German Shepherd Dog" and "Alsatian" are the same thing; IIRC, the term "Alsatian" was introduced during WW I when "German" became a dirty word. (Much the same way as 'saurkraut' became 'liberty cabbage', and a 'Hamburg steak' became a 'Salisbury steak.')

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Who gave you permission to turn into an Alsatian? (10 points for the reference)

My family "owned" 2 German Shepherds at different times during the time I grew up, and I just plain looooove that breed. I just wanted to bring up the notion that just because you've raised an animal to be a big baby that yowls at you when you're 10 minutes late in feeding it dinner or makes a disgusted "mmmmph" noise whenever you make it get up and move (for example, when you're vacuuming up the massive amounts of fur it produces) DOES NOT MEAN that the same animal will not be very, very aggressive when its territory is invaded by strangers. I'm always surprised when someone's dog is barking up a storm and they say "He's such a nice boy at home! I don't understand!" Of COURSE he's a nice boy to you... he KNOWS you.

I'm convinced that assuming that dogs are strangely shaped humans is the cause of many of these acts of aggression. They aren't.

John Craven

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Give big space to the festive dog that makes sport in roadway. Avoid entanglement of dog with wheel spokes.

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RubyMoon
Deck the Malls


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My opinion is that it's not really the dogs fault, I've met labs that were trained vicious, and I've seem pit bulls that thought they were teddybears. I don't think pitt bulls should be banned, I think some pitt bull owners should be jailed.
And the most viscious breed in the would is thankfully the lest likely to actually kill you. The only breed of dog that has ever bit me is chuahuas, 4 different occasions, 4 different dogs. The first one bit me because I was sitting on my aunts lap and the little idiot got jealous.

Jude

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Morrigan
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
quote:
Originally posted by glitter_sufc:
Are German Shepherds and Alsatians the *exact* same breed? Or is there a distinction? Also are short-haired ones and long-haired ones the same apart from the hair?


I think that the long-haired version is one of the three Belgian Shepherd breeds (Teuverein or Mallenois). "German Shepherd Dog" and "Alsatian" are the same thing; IIRC, the term "Alsatian" was introduced during WW I when "German" became a dirty word. (Much the same way as 'saurkraut' became 'liberty cabbage', and a 'Hamburg steak' became a 'Salisbury steak.')
Elkhound, nope-wrong on the coat length. *teasing tone* You really should read the previous posts before responding! *end teasing tone*

In my previous post:
quote:
Glitter, the Alsatian & GSD are in fact the same breed, just with a different name. There are actually 3 different coat types. Check out this link to find out more: http://www.justshepherds.com/lhgsd.htm
The three coat types are short coat (the type most commonly seen), long coat, with the third type being the plush coat. The last 2 closely resemble the breeds (4 breeds altogether) collectively known as the Belgian Shepherds. The GSD closely resembles the Tervueren (which is black and gray/creme) and Groenendael (usually called the Belgian Shepherd, is pure black), which both have long fur. The Malinois is the short haired black and tan.

Morrigan

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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening

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Katikate
Deck the Malls


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Morrigan, I didn't know you bred Shelties? Are ya'll color specific, or do you breed multiple coats? Anyway, I thought I would post pictures of a Rough Collie, more commonly known as the "Lassie Dog" and my sweet preciousness, the queen herself, MJ, the rescue baby.

Rough Collie:

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Queen MJ:

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Sorry for the disproportionate sizes, I didn't know how to make mine smaller or visa-versa. Shelties, and Morrigan correct me if I'm wrong, are bred more dainty than their larger cousins. In their native highlands, they are also called "toonies", which is another name for fairies, because on the moors prancing around they looked like they were floating almost.

But no, they are not shrunken versions of collies. That doesn't stop everyone from calling her "Lassie" and calling her a minature collie, which also annoys me. They also have one of the most pentetrating barks I've ever heard on a little dog. Its not high pitched, its just LOUD. Oh well, just a little info and comparison.

kati "only thing MJ herds is the kibble on her plate" kate

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“You want to know what marriage is really like? You wake up she's there. You come back from work she's there. You fall asleep she's there…I know that sounds like a bad thing. But, it's not. Not if it's the right person.” ~Raymond Barone

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RubyMoon
Deck the Malls


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Oooh, what an adorable Sheltie. That is one georeous doggie.
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Katikate
Deck the Malls


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Thank You!

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“You want to know what marriage is really like? You wake up she's there. You come back from work she's there. You fall asleep she's there…I know that sounds like a bad thing. But, it's not. Not if it's the right person.” ~Raymond Barone

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Barns & No Bull
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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N.C. Boy Killed by Father's Pit Bulls

CHARLOTTE, N.C. - An 8-year-old boy was mauled to death by his father's four pit bulls, and prosecutors were considering charges against the father ranging from child neglect to murder.

"They were pulling on him just like you do a rag doll."

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nailbunny
Oh Tanning Bomb


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Barns, you forgot to mention the drugs and weapons charges that the police are pinning to this guy.

"After searching Dumas' home, police charged him drug and firearms felonies."

i don't know the laws in N.C., but i can only assume that a small bag of pot, and a handgun won't get you FELONY charges.

You also failed to mention the complete negligence on the part of his parents...

"The boy's father, Roddie Philip Dumas Sr., 29, and his girlfriend, were inside the house but did not come outside until the dogs had already severely injured the boy, officials said."

i feel horrible for this boy's family. His parents *seem from this story* to be completely irresponsible, and the exact type of people who should not own a DOG, let alone a pit bull. And they definitely should have never had kids. [Frown]

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i'm not mean, you're just a sissy.

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Morrigan
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by katikate 2004 model, no money down:
Morrigan, I didn't know you bred Shelties? Are ya'll color specific, or do you breed multiple coats? Anyway, I thought I would post pictures of a Rough Collie, more commonly known as the "Lassie Dog" and my sweet preciousness, the queen herself, MJ, the rescue baby.
*snipped out the pictures*
Sorry for the disproportionate sizes, I didn't know how to make mine smaller or visa-versa. Shelties, and Morrigan correct me if I'm wrong, are bred more dainty than their larger cousins. In their native highlands, they are also called "toonies", which is another name for fairies, because on the moors prancing around they looked like they were floating almost.

But no, they are not shrunken versions of collies. That doesn't stop everyone from calling her "Lassie" and calling her a minature collie, which also annoys me. They also have one of the most pentetrating barks I've ever heard on a little dog. Its not high pitched, its just LOUD. Oh well, just a little info and comparison.

kati "only thing MJ herds is the kibble on her plate" kate

Katikate-yep, I breed shelties. We don't breed color specific. Right now, we own several sables, tri's and blues. My two (soon to be three!) are a blue (the father) and a tri (the son). The soon to be is a blue female.

AFAIK, you're right! So far, they're my favorite breed-I just can't imagine having a different breed. *sighs in contentment*

Morrigan

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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening

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Barns & No Bull
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by nailbunny:
Barns, you forgot to mention the drugs and weapons charges that the police are pinning to this guy.

I thought that this part of my quote pretty well covered the situation:

"...and prosecutors were considering charges against the father ranging from child neglect to murder."

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Terrified, mortified, petrified, stupefied... by you!

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Xia
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason the Jinxed:
I had a copy of a CDC study on the issue and they do track breeds and biting (fatal & non-fatal).....

ETA: Fatal Dog Bites

Sorry if this was posted already...
I just wanted to say that the problem with the bite statstics is that the breed is usually either reported by the person who was bitten, or if the police were involved, by the person on the scene. It's very easy to mis-identify a dog as a certain breed or mix. I've seen articles where they called dogs involved in attacks a "pit bull type dog" and pictures of supposed "pit bull terriers" that had bitten that were obviously either mixes or some other breed altogether (such as a boxer, or in one case a huge dog that looked like a Great Dane mix...)
Many people also call any dog with a short coat, big chest and wide body a 'pit bull' when in fact many breeds have those characteristics.

Another one-- Can you identify the 'pit bull' here? --

In addition there is actually no such breed as a "pit bull" and so all bull breeds are usually lumped into this one category-- that includes American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, Bulldogs, American Bulldogs, Bull Terriers, Bandogs, and even some purebred Mastiff breeds...

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

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Nolly
Fin City


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quote:
Originally posted by Morrigan:
And you gotta watch out for those Parson Russel Terrorists-nasty little things, always trying to trip you... [Wink]

Oh Gawd YES! My dog trips me at least once a day! Before Jax (yeah, i know...I didn't name him)we owned a "pit bull" (Staffordshire Bull Terrier) that we rescued from a shelter. Buddy was THE most gentle dog. He had been terrorized and beaten -bred for fighting by a bunch of rednecks in Bracebridge. You'd think with the way he had been treated he'd be aggressive or even fearful (just as bad IMO)-but he was not. He was a loving companion, and so incredibly gentle ( My daughter was 3 at the time and I never once feared for her). I miss him. [Frown]
When he died, my mother decided we should go with a smaller breed (read "trendy" ugh [Roll Eyes] ). A Jack Russell Terrorist. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this dog, but he is the most high strung little spazz and can be incredibly annoying with his numerous quirks. For example:

-when someone is using the phone, he sits and stares intently while softly whining. When the person hangs up, he SHRIEKS(like he is in pain), spins in a circle, runs downstairs, shrieks again and the comes back upstairs where he licks the wall for about 5 mins.

-no one can touch another person in his presence. He will spin in a circle and bark incessantly until the touching stops.

There are more but I think I've made my point. They are the strangest dogs. I'll take my lumbering gentle giant "Pit Bull" over another JRT (PRT) any day.

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DON'T waste money on expensive paper shredders to avoid having your identity stolen. Simply place a few dog turds in the bin bags along with your old bank statements..

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Bob Bintdeck
The Red and the Green Stamps


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The most aggressive breed I have ever dealt with were Chows.The smartest dog I have ever seen was a Pit Bull but the meanest dog was a Pit Bull also some breeds are more aggressive but you must think of dogs as individuals like people.I have been bit by more dogs than I would honestly tell you but most bites were from mutts.Chows though fall from the radar for most but please be carefull because they can be very aggressive.
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Catcrack
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Not exactly on the OT, but I've heard that some breeds - the Russian Borzoi, for example, were particularly bred - from the very start of the breed some 300(?) years ago - to eliminate any aggressiveness towards people; even very promising dogs that were doing great in the hunts were "weeded out" as soon as they showed signs of aggressiveness towards the owner.
We had a Borzoi when I was a kid - the dog was real mean to other dogs, not to mention hares (and cyclists :-) but never even barked at us kids.

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