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Author Topic: Young people struggle to deal with kiss of debt
zerocool
Deck the Malls


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My major (double major in chemical engineering + materials science) handed us a list of classes we would be taking for the next 4 years. Even with this planned out they have sometimes scheduled 2 required classes at the same time, but it is a simple matter to go to the professor and have the class rescheduled (after all, if it doesn't fit for you, it is probably affecting everyone else in the major also).
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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
quote:
Incompatibility of Full-time Study with Full-time Employment
Students who by choice or necessity work on non-academic activities more than 10 hours per week should, where possible, structure their course/work load so that they can attend fully to their academic obligations. The Standings and Promotions Committee will not normally grant petitions based on time pressure resulting from employment.

It all seems quite clear to me, and I'm not surprised that there is no sympathy for those who do not do their homework.
"The Standings and Promotions Committee will not normally grant petitions based on time pressure resulting from employment."

They dissapprove of students working more than ten hours a week, do they? Well, there goes the idea of working full time to pay for your schooling so you can graduate without enough debt to pay a mortgage. [Roll Eyes] How helpful.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Interesting. At our current school (and the one we graduated from), they have requirements on the various departments that if a course is REQUIRED for graduation, the course MUST be offered at least once a year AND during the summer. If there is a series of courses, they must be offered consecutively (or some term like that, i.e., a course series must be Spring-Fall or Fall-Spring). You are not allowed to have a required course offered only "occasionally". The policy more or less states that it MUST be reasonably possible to get the BS degree in 4 years or less.

I didn't realize that was not SOP at other universities.

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And now for something completely different...

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
Interesting. At our current school (and the one we graduated from), they have requirements on the various departments that if a course is REQUIRED for graduation, the course MUST be offered at least once a year AND during the summer. If there is a series of courses, they must be offered consecutively (or some term like that, i.e., a course series must be Spring-Fall or Fall-Spring). You are not allowed to have a required course offered only "occasionally". The policy more or less states that it MUST be reasonably possible to get the BS degree in 4 years or less.

I didn't realize that was not SOP at other universities.

Seriously, it wasn't done at mine. There were classes that were offered once every 4 semesters (every other year) that were required for some majors. My major had two classes like that.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr:
Seriously, it wasn't done at mine. There were classes that were offered once every 4 semesters (every other year) that were required for some majors. My major had two classes like that.

Wow. This is relevant to us now because my wife is the only one who teaches this one course required for graduation and she has NOT been teaching it every summer. The admin. is getting on her and the dept.'s case because of that. And we are at a small state university.

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And now for something completely different...

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Plurabelle
Ika and Tina Tuna


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My college (one of those east coast liberal arts schools where graduating without debt is an incredible feat) actively expected us to graduate in 4 years or less--they made things very difficult for those who wished to take a 5th year, and a 6th year was unheard of.

If we could not finish in 4 years, we had to apply for special status to take on a 9th and/or 10th semester (this excluded students in the 5 year BA/MA program--this required pre-application which made you exempt from the "9th-10th semester hearing").

However, the school made absolutely sure that any failure to complete a program in 4 years was not due to poor planning on their part--required classes were never offered in an order that might require students to take extra time just to fill requirements. Exemptions, substitutes, or private study options were always available if you could manage to find yourself in a jam, but a big part of each department's job was making sure their required courses were offered every single semester at flexible times with private study available if possible.

16 credits was also the per semester minimum (save 2 semesters where you could go down to 12) but up to 20 was the norm.

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Lydia Oh Lydia
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I think the average graduation time is something to look at when choosing a college. I did. At my university, I don't know of anyone who didn't finish in four years or less with a single bachelor's degree. I do know people who stayed longer to get a second BA or BS or an advanced degree.

My friend who attended very large public universities (20K or more students) all took around 5 years to get their degrees because of the scheduling conflicts that others have mentioned.

Cost may have also played a factor at my university. Circa 1991, the costs of a 4 year degree (including tuition, books, room and board) was estimated at around $100K. I just looked up my college. (Now, the costs are estimated at over $180K!) I don't think many parents/students (i.e., future donors) would be very happy if the school were not structured to get you in an out in a 4 year period.

ETA: Regarding the credits per semester. Students could take 12 credits and still be considered full time students. But, students were strongly encouraged to take at least 15 per semester. Many in the sciences took about 18 or more due to labs. I took enough credits in my first 3 1/2 years so that my last semester of college, I could take an easy course load of 12 credits (while also working 30-40 hours per week at my job).

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Hero_Mike
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snapdragonfly, the rule in Canada is that if you work more than an average of 10 hours per week, you lose your status as a full-time student. Being a full-time student gives you more tax credits, not to mention that student loans are interest free while you are a full-time student (and for 6 months after).

Full-time, in that day, meant that you were taking 60% course load or more. If you chose to take only 3 courses per semester (instead of 5), you paid the same fees as someone taking 100% course load.

When I was a grad student - the university employed you as a teaching assistant, which was said to be 10 hours a week. If you worked more, you lost your full-time status, not to mention the fact that your supervisor might question your committment. Part-time was an option, but by the mid 90's it was just as expensive as being registered full-time. Several of my fellow grad students took side jobs during the summer, though they were usually short-term consulting jobs.

And here's another "when I was a student" story. When I was doing my undergrad from '89 to '94, we were told that we had to take 100% course load every term. The only exception was if someone was repeating a term (where they had to repeat any failed course, or pass with a grade below 60%). The explanation was that the national engineering accreditation board - which certifies engineering programs as being eligible for professional certification after graduation - did not permit students to get an engineering undergraduate degree "part-time".

In the mid-90's this changed, and you were allowed to take 80% course load in all years. Personally, I thought that this was a scam by the universities, as it was generally the case that 60% course load or more, meant the same fees as 100% course load. They could squeeze 5 years of tuition from a student, instead of 4, for whatever reason. Some took this option so they could learn better. Others did it so they could party like their friends studying liberal arts. Personally, I agree with the accreditation board - there's something that needs to be demonstrated in higher education, and that is the ability to handle work load.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Raven Waift
The First USA Noel


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At the University of Cincinnati, which I attend, there are a lot of smaller colleges- like College of Business, or Arts and Sciences. My major stradles two colleges, which makes things rather confusing.

I am a Personnel and Industrial Relations major, which means that the classes for my major are in LER and Psychology (under A&S) and in the College of Business. The CoB block schedules classes sometimes, whereas A&S doesn't- adding to scheuling problems. I have been faced with the choice between two required classes, the A&S on MWF at 11-12, and the CoB class from 11-2.

LER has only night classes, as these are mostly for people in the Master's program for Employee Relations. Last quarter's schedule was 11-8 on Monday with only an 11-12 class on WF.

This coming quarter things are also hectic.

When I transfered I lost more than half of my credits. Some of these actually transfered, but were functionally lost. My previous school was on semesters, while UC is on quarters, so I has 4.5 credit hours in calculus, which translates to 1.5 classes at UC.

Hopefully I will be able to graduate this Spring, meaning I will have been in college for 5 years.

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snapdragonfly
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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
snapdragonfly, the rule in Canada is that if you work more than an average of 10 hours per week, you lose your status as a full-time student. Being a full-time student gives you more tax credits, not to mention that student loans are interest free while you are a full-time student (and for 6 months after).


If I am understanding you, that sounds (as my daughter would say) wackado to me.

Why should they care how many hours you work or don't work as long as you are taking and passing the amount of school hours necessary?

That sounds really intrusive to me. ~but there might be other factors different in Canada that make a difference. I don't know anything at all about university in Canada except that IF irc, my friend in art school from Canada told me that instead of the (supposedly) better schools costing more money, (and I would like to state I do not buy that more cost necessarily equals better school) all the schools cost the same, but the better schools were scholastically harder to get into. So that the upshot is that the most prestigious schools are a reward for the best, not richest, students. Is that correct, or do I remember it wrong?

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Hero_Mike
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snapdragonfly, with some new and rare exceptions, all universities in Canada are public. Tuition varies from program to program, but is usually very close for all schools. Canadian students pay rather low tuitions (despite increasing significantly over the last 15 years), while foreign students pay something more like the actual cost. (Since education falls under provincial rules, this varies from province to province, and some provinces now charge higher fees for out-of-province students. Predictably, because the students' parents don't pay taxes locally.)

For example, two terms of enginering for Canadian students at UW is about $9,000 in tuition. For foreign students, it is $26K.

Entry into better schools with more prestigious programs (which lead to better jobs) is based on merit, and there is no value given to "legacy" on admissions. Applications sometimes include extenuating circumstances, but where I went to school, the "starting point" for my program was a high-school graduating average of over 90%. Some programs now have "market pricing" because they are so popular, but because loans and scholarships are available, it is ultimately merit which determines who is in, and who is out.

Full-time status gives you a tax credit of $400 per month, part-time is only $120. The government does this to help students and encourage education. Since the government subsidizes the cost, it's only fair that they set the rules. The government also provides the guarantee on student loans, and it is a losing proposition. All of it is intended to benefit the wealth of the nation, in terms of having more educated, and higher-earning *taxpayers*.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Raven Waift:
At the University of Cincinnati, which I attend, there are a lot of smaller colleges- like College of Business, or Arts and Sciences.

That's generally the way universities (as opposed to liberal arts colleges) are organized in the US.

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin:
quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
I'm confused as well. Why would one assume that it takes an average of 5 or 6 years to graduate from a 4-year university?

When I was in college (early to mid 90s), it was pretty much taken as given that most students would take more than four years to finish a four year degree at my school. There were a lot of reasons this might happen, but one of the most common ones was that students would take fewer classes each semester so they had more time to work a part-time job to pay for education or living costs. Most degree programs were set up so that you would be taking 15 or more hours each semester, but you were only required to take 12 hours to maintain your full-time student status. Students who were working often took 12 hours to keep up full-time student status (to keep their student loans from going into repayment) and working to pay costs. That meant they ended up taking a few more semesters to finish.
Also, specific courses one must take for a given program may not be offered every term--or every year--hence, one may not be able to get in all the courses one needs in four years.

At a college where I used to be librarian, the Business department piled on so many required math courses that, in order to comply with the college's general distribution requirements, the in-department courses, and the math requirements, it was impossible to earn a BBA in less than five years, and most students required six. Similarly, the Bachelor of Physical Education program had so many biology and chemistry corequisites that it was acceptable as a premedical major--and needed five years at least to complete. I am told that this is not unusual.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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LolaRennt
The First USA Noel


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Cervus,

Not every parent is as good about finances as yours. My boyfriend's parents were terrible when it came to money. It's not that they didn't save. They seemed to think that the money their children earned belonged to them. My boyfriend had a savings account when he was 12. Because he was a minor, his mother's name was on it. Huge mistake. She wiped out the account and then DENIED that it ever existed. This was not allowance money (and it still wouldn't make it right) - he earned this money with a paper route.

He could not do anything to hold on to his money with this type of situation. Keeping it around the house was just as dangerous as keeping it in a bank.

His parents divorce was so bitter that it took years to finalize. His mother became so petty about it that she refused to buy clothes for the kids, saying that it was the father's job to do that. So if my bf's father didn't get to see them for a while, then my bf had to buy his own clothes or else make do with what he could squeeze himself into.

His parents at least agreed that he would go to college. They waited, however, until he was already getting acceptance letters to ask him how he was planning to pay for some of the more expensive schools. They were not going to pay a single dime for college.

Ok, I can see telling a child that you're not going to pay for tuition but that should be done in freshman year of high school, not by the time the kid is getting acceptance letters. And if you're a parent who has a track record of stealing money from your kid (or expecting your kid to pay for family meals - they did that sometimes), then that just makes you a huge nfbsk'er. Oh his mother did graciously tell him that she would let him live at home as long as he was in college (gee how nice).

So his choices were to cut himself off from his family and work crappy minimum wage jobs until he had somehow managed to save enough for school (unlikely he could do that if he had to pay rent) or apply for financial aid and incur debt that would make up the difference between what he could earn (and keep away from his parents) and the rest of his tuition. At least he could get a degree and have a shot at a higher paying job.

So he took option number two. So now he has a degree and has had opportunities open to him that would not be open without a college degree.

Also his mother was not the only evil one about money. She's just the most glaring example. His father was pretty bad about it too.

LR

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Errata:
If you're paying the same amount of tuition anyway, why would you want to take the bare minimum credits, even as a freshman?

1. Same amount of tuition? What planet are you from? One pays $X per credit-hour--if one takes more, one pays more; if one takes less, one pays less. Even for schools with flat-rate tuition, if one takes an overload one generally pays more. I've never encountered a school--and I've been in academe most of my life--where one pays the same tuition no matter how many/few credits one is taking; they may exist, but they are surely in a minority.

2. At the freshman level it makes sense to take the bare minimum to be considered full-time. The transition from HS to college is difficult on many levels--why add to the stress?

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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When I was in college, there was a range of how many credits one could take for the standard "full-time" student tuition. Below that level, one paid by the credit hour. Above that level, one paid overload fees. How many classes that range covered would depend on which classes, of course. We were on a quarter system, and classes ranged from 1-2 credit hours (labs, PE) to 5 credit hours.

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:


They dissapprove of students working more than ten hours a week, do they? Well, there goes the idea of working full time to pay for your schooling so you can graduate without enough debt to pay a mortgage. [Roll Eyes] How helpful. [/QB]

It doesn't say that at all. It says you can work full-time and go to school part-time, or vice-versa, but that doing both full-time is just not do-able.

Now, going to school part-time while working full-time is a perfectly valid option for many people. I know many people who have done so. I am doing so myself now, taking courses over the 'Net for a CAS.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Rhiandmoi
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But it should be possible to work for at least 20 hours a week and take 20 hours of instruction a week. I mean if you pick up 2 full shifts on the weekend, and 1 half shift during the week that is 20 hours. 10 hours seems unreasonably few hours. I don't even know how you can find an off campus job for 10 hours a week.

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snapdragonfly
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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
It doesn't say that at all. It says you can work full-time and go to school part-time, or vice-versa, but that doing both full-time is just not do-able.

[/QB]

Well, according to a lot of people including some snopesters who have posted in this very thread, they are wrong. People do it all the time. Not much fun, but if you don't happen to have parents who will fund your way then your only recourse is either to work more, or graduate with a crapload of debt, which is exactly the point the OP is making.

Schools that penalize students for working (by the tax structure Hero_Mike mentioned and tuition that costs more per hour when you are part time and etc) just seems to make it even harder to graduate without debt.

eta also I've worked plenty of part time jobs in my life and they are almost never ten hours, they want you for 12 or 16 or 20.

That policy is clearly rigid and burdensome to people who are trying to graduate without a large debtload.

eta again: to a Canadian student it wouldn't be quite as burdensome as for one in the US, because of the different structure described, but it's still pretty rigid.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Just another data point...I took an accredited engineering BS program (Engineering Physics), worked 10-20 hours per week AND finished in 4 years. Now the job I had was with a local NOAA lab, and they were VERY accommodating for tests and study time, in fact, to get out of work, all I had to say was, "I need to study". We called it "pulling the study card". I took no classes in the summer and worked more or less full-time.

Now at the University, there were no regulations about how many hours you could take vs. how many hours you could work, but unless you had a great job like I did (I ended up getting my PhD out of that group), taking and working too many hours could be difficult. I mentioned before that my roommate took 8 years to get a BS, but he worked full-time second shift. Funny, the GM folks were also quite accommodating about him getting off for study time. Not sure if that was the union's or the company's doing.

Tuition costs were per-hour. I don't remember ANY per-semester costs.

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And now for something completely different...

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Errata
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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
quote:
Originally posted by Errata:
If you're paying the same amount of tuition anyway, why would you want to take the bare minimum credits, even as a freshman?

1. Same amount of tuition? What planet are you from? One pays $X per credit-hour--if one takes more, one pays more; if one takes less, one pays less. Even for schools with flat-rate tuition, if one takes an overload one generally pays more. I've never encountered a school--and I've been in academe most of my life--where one pays the same tuition no matter how many/few credits one is taking; they may exist, but they are surely in a minority.
What planet? You're clearly not as familiar with a cross section of schools as you seem to think. Cost per credit hour is not typical at expensive universities. You pay a certain amount to be a full time student for the semester. And if its an affordable community college where you pay by the credit, then student debt wouldn't be as much of an issue in the first place. At my school it was about $15k per semester for a full time student, flat rate, a bit more now. You pay that whether you take every advantage from it you can, or whether you take 12 credits and watch tv all day. Some schools within the university have a maximum credit limit of 18 per semester, but you can petition the registrar for more, which is rubber stamped if you have a good GPA, at no additional cost. Mine didn't require the petition, you can take 20 credits if you think you're up to it (the most I took was 21). You either can take more or you can't, but it isn't tied to paying more.

Summer session did pay by the credit hour, and worked out to be cheaper overall for some reason, but its not really viable to take nothing but summer courses.

quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
2. At the freshman level it makes sense to take the bare minimum to be considered full-time. The transition from HS to college is difficult on many levels--why add to the stress?

The courses are only going to get much harder after that. If you're not cut out for it you might as well find out before paying for a year's tuition.
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Rhiandmoi
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Cost per credit hour isn't done at my cheap State University either. One price for less than 6 units, one price for 6 units or more, I think the max you were allowed to register for without special permission was 20 units, but permission was easy to get if you were crazy enough to want to take 21 units.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

Posts: 8745 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I can't remember what the tuition schedule at UNM was - at the college here, it's per hour, BUT, if you are part time, it's a higher cost per hour than full time. So if you are working full time in order to, say, eat, and not live under a bridge, and can't handle full time school also, you pay more for your education than someone who can go to school full time.

There are a lot of people at that school who do in fact work full time and go to school full time because it's signficantly more expensive to go part time.

I can't remember how it was at UCA either - didn't pay any mind since my son had a scholarship for tuition and fees anyway.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Errata:


quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
2. At the freshman level it makes sense to take the bare minimum to be considered full-time. The transition from HS to college is difficult on many levels--why add to the stress?

The courses are only going to get much harder after that. If you're not cut out for it you might as well find out before paying for a year's tuition. [/QB]
When I was talking about the difficulties of transitioning from HS to college I was not just talking about the greater academic difficulties of the classwork. HS and college are socially quite different also, added to the fact that freshmen are often out on their own for the first time.

I'm not saying that taking a slight underload one's freshman year is something the everyone should do, but for some students it makes sense.

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
It doesn't say that at all. It says you can work full-time and go to school part-time, or vice-versa, but that doing both full-time is just not do-able.


Well, according to a lot of people including some snopesters who have posted in this very thread, they are wrong. People do it all the time. [/QB]
Are/were all those people, including the Snopesters, doing their degrees at that university? If not, their experience is not relevant; different schools have different cultures.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
It doesn't say that at all. It says you can work full-time and go to school part-time, or vice-versa, but that doing both full-time is just not do-able.


Well, according to a lot of people including some snopesters who have posted in this very thread, they are wrong. People do it all the time.

Are/were all those people, including the Snopesters, doing their degrees at that university? If not, their experience is not relevant; different schools have different cultures. [/QB]
Differnt cultures, schmulters.

It costs to eat and pay rent no matter what school you go to.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
]Differnt cultures, schmulters.

It costs to eat and pay rent no matter what school you go to. [/QB]

But it costs differently in different parts of the country. Some schools are more academically intensive than others.

Not every school is right for everyone. If this particular school is one whose program is such that one cannot complete on a full-time basis while also working full time, then if one wants/needs to study and work both full-time, one should choose another school. With nearly seven thousand in the country, surely you can find one that fits your needs.

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
]Differnt cultures, schmulters.

It costs to eat and pay rent no matter what school you go to.

But it costs differently in different parts of the country. Some schools are more academically intensive than others.

Not every school is right for everyone. If this particular school is one whose program is such that one cannot complete on a full-time basis while also working full time, then if one wants/needs to study and work both full-time, one should choose another school. With nearly seven thousand in the country, surely you can find one that fits your needs. [/QB]

...that wasn't really the point. The point was that a school that won't let a person go to school full time and work more than 10 dollars an hour is going to make it very difficult to graduate without getting all that debt that the OP talked about.

Whether or not "I" (and I assume you meant general "you" as Snapdragonfly has no intention of going college shopping at this point) am a good "fit" for that school is irrelevant to my point.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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It costs to eat and pay rent no matter where you live, but I could have attended a good (but not great or "leading") university and lived at home with my parents for 4 years. No rent, no food, and with luck, I'd renew my scholarship and pocket the money.

That said, it was worth more to go to a different school 50+ miles away, pay rent, pay for a meal plan, and get a better education. For the hundreds and thousands out there who don't live in a city with a university, it's a moot point. Many people from the far reaches of Northern Ontario had the option of living locally and going to a community college, or paying rent to go to a university in a bigger city. Renting locally in Sudbury or North Bay is a lot cheaper than Ottawa, Toronto, or even Kingston.

Not everyone has the option to attend locally, and many parents would be perfectly willing to provide their children with room and board for their post-secondary years, mostly because this is all they can provide. Not everyone can pay for their kids' schooling, buy them cars and fancy stereos, pay their insurance, supplement their income so they can pay their rent, etc. But they can provide a roof, bed, and 3 meals a day. It happens a lot in my home town.

--------------------
"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

Posts: 1587 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
It costs to eat and pay rent no matter where you live, but I could have attended a good (but not great or "leading") university and lived at home with my parents for 4 years. No rent, no food, and with luck, I'd renew my scholarship and pocket the money.

That said, it was worth more to go to a different school 50+ miles away, pay rent, pay for a meal plan, and get a better education. For the hundreds and thousands out there who don't live in a city with a university, it's a moot point. Many people from the far reaches of Northern Ontario had the option of living locally and going to a community college, or paying rent to go to a university in a bigger city. Renting locally in Sudbury or North Bay is a lot cheaper than Ottawa, Toronto, or even Kingston.

Not everyone has the option to attend locally, and many parents would be perfectly willing to provide their children with room and board for their post-secondary years, mostly because this is all they can provide. Not everyone can pay for their kids' schooling, buy them cars and fancy stereos, pay their insurance, supplement their income so they can pay their rent, etc. But they can provide a roof, bed, and 3 meals a day. It happens a lot in my home town.

Exactly true, which further illustrates the point that a great deal of whether or not a person can get a college degree without acruing a huge debt has to do with nothing more than the accident of their circumstances.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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snapdragonly, I dare say that getting, and renewing my entrance and renewable scholarships were no accident.

I don't understand what you mean about debt load being a matter of "accident". I went to a university with a co-op program - we got good, well-paying jobs during our work terms, and many of us had scholarships because we were good students to begin with. Only 4 of my 80 classmates lived locally with parents - 76 had to pay rent during their school terms. Very few came from wealthy backgrounds - maybe 3 or 4 had cars bought by their parents. On the average, people worked hard, saved their money and prioritized their spending. This was no accident.

When tuition went from $1100 for 4 months in 1989, to more than double that in 1994, it meant less nights out drinking, fewer CDs, fewer movie rentals, etc. Again, no accident.

You should, at least, give credit where credit is due.

--------------------
"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

Posts: 1587 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
snapdragonly, I dare say that getting, and renewing my entrance and renewable scholarships were no accident.

I don't understand what you mean about debt load being a matter of "accident". I went to a university with a co-op program - we got good, well-paying jobs during our work terms, and many of us had scholarships because we were good students to begin with. Only 4 of my 80 classmates lived locally with parents - 76 had to pay rent during their school terms. Very few came from wealthy backgrounds - maybe 3 or 4 had cars bought by their parents. On the average, people worked hard, saved their money and prioritized their spending. This was no accident.

When tuition went from $1100 for 4 months in 1989, to more than double that in 1994, it meant less nights out drinking, fewer CDs, fewer movie rentals, etc. Again, no accident.

You should, at least, give credit where credit is due.

I don't think you understand me. Whether or not one's parents, who would be willing to provide room and board, live in a town where that actually would make a difference because of the school that is available there (as you illustrated yourself) is something that a student has absolutely no control over. It is purely an accident of luck if my parents lived in Austin Texas, where I could live at home and go to UT, or if they lived in South Armpit Texas where the closest school was 75 miles away, and therefore free room and board simply wasn't an option.

Also whether or not one has parents who are able and willing to fund one's schooling is also purely an accident of luck.

Those are the main circumstances to which I am referring to as accidents of luck.

However, judging from the amount of debt everyone seems to be accruing, I think the obstacles that are faced when dealing with the cost of college today are sometimes more profound than can be overcome by simply cutting back on buying CD's. There is no argument or debate that the cost of college has increased disproportionately to other costs and that student aid other than loans have stayed flat or even vanished. ~talking about US here. Canada might be different.

I'm not saying it's all luck, some is certainly merit and effort, but if the hand you've been dealt is all eights and aces, it's going to be quite a trick to pay for living and college expenses also for four years without borrowing. Some kids who might not have any resources might have parents who do know the ins and outs, or a really great high school counselor, who can help them find a school and figure out a way, but again, that's something that you either have or you don't.

I can't think of a single graduate I know, except for those who had parents who paid, who didn't end up with a lot of debt. Some are still paying it off in their 40's. There isn't always a scholarship available. Texas public schools are particulary stingy with them - there's just no money for it. That's what the admissions departments told me when we were looking into matriculating my son.

edited

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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snapdragonfly, you can count me as the "first" person you know who graduated without a lot of debt. Or any debt for that matter. My parents entire contribution to my education was my 1A term "incidental fees" of about $400. My father lost his job of 20+ years when I was half-way into 2nd year when the factory closed. I saved the money from my work terms, made sure I got my A average to renew the scholarship, and did in-term research assistantships for an extra $600. I would use the tax laws to transfer income from one year to the next, because some years I had two school terms and one work term, and some years it was the other way around.

You'd be surprised how much "casual spending" or entertainment impacted on the bottom line. Buying one CD a week would be $1300 a year. That was maybe 10% of what I made in a year back then. Some of my classmates with loans would think nothing of a $100 night at the bar. By the end of term, they'd be ordering pizzas only from Pizza Hut, because nobody else took credit cards. It was sad, but I had then, and continue to have, an aversion to debt.

You're right though - if you're lucky it certainly helps, but unlike many students, I went to university without a "safety net". No trust fund. No rich uncle. No dual-income household. That made it pretty clear what I had to do.

--------------------
"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
snapdragonfly, you can count me as the "first" person you know who graduated without a lot of debt. Or any debt for that matter. My parents entire contribution to my education was my 1A term "incidental fees" of about $400. My father lost his job of 20+ years when I was half-way into 2nd year when the factory closed. I saved the money from my work terms, made sure I got my A average to renew the scholarship, and did in-term research assistantships for an extra $600. I would use the tax laws to transfer income from one year to the next, because some years I had two school terms and one work term, and some years it was the other way around.

You'd be surprised how much "casual spending" or entertainment impacted on the bottom line. Buying one CD a week would be $1300 a year. That was maybe 10% of what I made in a year back then. Some of my classmates with loans would think nothing of a $100 night at the bar. By the end of term, they'd be ordering pizzas only from Pizza Hut, because nobody else took credit cards. It was sad, but I had then, and continue to have, an aversion to debt.

You're right though - if you're lucky it certainly helps, but unlike many students, I went to university without a "safety net". No trust fund. No rich uncle. No dual-income household. That made it pretty clear what I had to do.

Count me as another, who paid for college all by myself, without debt or scholorships. I did work as many hours as I was legally alowed from the time I was 16 on, putting almost 100% of the money in a savings account. I also usually worked two jobs during my time in school and kept my expenses down. Not owning a car was a huge help in keeping the costs down.

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

Posts: 12094 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Well, there's always a first. My brother is pretty frugal too and had lived on his own for 10 years before he went to law school, without getting into too much debt beforehand, but after law school he had a big loan that he's still paying off. I don't guess there were any scholarships. He also had to work as many hours as possible while in school because he was his only means of support - our dad didn't give him a dime. So I don't know how he could have done it any other way than to borrow - he was as frugal and as hard working as he could possibly be but that simply wasn't enough, and I know a lot of people for whom that is the case.

(and I don't buy one cd a week, even now! Certainly not in college!)

I'm sure some folks do find a way, and it involves hard work, but I think there are some people who can't do it without loans no matter how spartan they are willing to live for the time being. It just depends on the circumstances, the resources, the community, and the school.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

Posts: 2397 | From: Texarkana, TX | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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