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Author Topic: Young people struggle to deal with kiss of debt
glass papaya
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
My very first post in this thread was intended to be a comment on that. I know that my experiences have shaped my views on student loans (and debt in general), and obviously other people make choices that I wouldn't make. I'm sure they all have their own reasons for doing so.


Cervus, you went on to make comments like this
quote:
But if you already don't have money to spare, it's stupid to borrow thousands of dollars thinking "I'll get a job after I graduate and pay it off later".
and this
quote:
If you don't have a stable form of income or finances, it's unwise to take out loans for something you can't guarantee being able to pay back.

and this
quote:
I just feel that if you have to borrow an enormous amount of money, even to further your education, it's not a wise idea to do so. I think it's a form of "gambling" to assume you'll be able to get a high-enough paying job with your future degree that you can afford to put yourself massively in debt in order to get that degree.
All of life is a gamble. All of it. People try to make the best decisions they can based on the information they currently have available. Right now, statistics show that people who have college degrees earn significantly more than people who don't. Borrowing in the short term is likely to result in a significant long term benefit. Maybe it doesn't work for every single person, but on the whole it's a good gamble.

Would you be this judgemental about someone who took out a mortgage on a home because they can't absolutely positively guarantee that they will still have their current level of income in 5 years? Because life can throw lemons at anyone.

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Simply Madeline
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An interesting perspective on college loans/college costs.

I'm actually surprised that the average student loan balance is only $14,000. I got out of school 20 (gasp!) years ago, and my loans totalled $11,000; I thought that was about average at the time; I assumed it would be much higher today.

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glass papaya
Jingle Bell Hock


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Interesting article, Simply Madeline. Thank you.

It is worthwhile to point out, though, that the author fails to take into consideration things like health insurance, retirement contributions, and other benefits that are more likely to come your way if you have a job that requires a degree. (Walmart anyone?)

Of course, if I had $76,000 just lying around for each of my kids, the whole borrowing point I was trying to make would be moot anyway. [lol]

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
quote:
Originally posted by glass papaya:
Maybe what I'm saying is you are fortunate that you live in a place where the cost is more easily affordable. Not everyone is that fortunate.

My very first post in this thread was intended to be a comment on that. I know that my experiences have shaped my views on student loans (and debt in general), and obviously other people make choices that I wouldn't make. I'm sure they all have their own reasons for doing so.
These are choices you didn't have to make.

You come from a monied background and have always been able to depend on your parents in this department. Not everyone has the same start in life that you have had. You really can't know for certain what choices you would make if you had graduated from high school, wanted to go to college but did not have parents who could subsidize your education.

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Jordashe
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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I was lucky enough to avoid any debt of any sort, though I still make an effort to never spend any money that I don't already have.

These issues with debt are indicative of deeper problems in the economy, as well as poor government regulation of predatory lending.

With the loss of manufacturing jobs, college has become the new high school, and grad school has become the new college. As such, the cost of attending college should be brought down to match the expectation there is of attending.

Oddly, in my limited experience, the most effective way to make your degree worth something is to move somewhere where they have lower expectations. I think I'm the only person in my sub-department who has a degree in anything.

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BeachLife
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I think that a good college degree is almost always a winning proposition. I also think that there are a lot of people either getting the 'wrong' degree or paying too much for the degree.

My oldest daughter is going to a private liberal arts school to get a degree in International Relations. More than 50% of her tuition and board is being paid by scholorships. This is a good deal in my opinon and well worth every dollar, she, her mother and I spend. Though another kid going to the same school with a different major and no scholorships (or rich parents) would be acting foolishly.

I do not think that debt is all bad so long as one has done the math regarding repayment and will be getting some return on that debt. I am going into debt to pay for the education of both of my daughters and it's worth every penny for me and them.

Beach...ironically, I graduated with my own BA and no debt...Life!

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
I am going into debt to pay for the education of both of my daughters and it's worth every penny for me and them.

Beach...ironically, I graduated with my own BA and no debt...Life!

They're lucky. [Smile] I hope they know just how lucky they are!

I completed my BA with no debt (and about 15K in savings, not including my 401k). However, one master's degree and about four desperate (and, strangely, often unemployed...hmmm, coincidence?) friends fixed that surplus real quick.

Funny, but the seemingly minor decisions made when you are young can have the most extreme reprecussions.

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glass papaya
Jingle Bell Hock


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Someone with a math background help me out, please.

In looking at the math behind the numbers data from Simply Madeline's linky, the assumption is that a college-bound student will borrow the entire $76,000 to attend college, therefore ending up nearly $153,000 in debt in year 6 after amortization. Here is the pdf.

However, going back to the article, he assumes that the non-college person has $76,000 to invest at 18, giving them a whopping $1.3 million advantage at the age of 58.

That doesn't seem right to me. Either you have the $76,000 or you don't. If you do, you won't borrow it to attend college. If you don't, you can't invest it at age 18.

Is this nitpicking?

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by glass papaya:
Someone with a math background help me out, please.

In looking at the math behind the numbers data from Simply Madeline's linky, the assumption is that a college-bound student will borrow the entire $76,000 to attend college, therefore ending up nearly $153,000 in debt in year 6 after amortization. Here is the pdf.

However, going back to the article, he assumes that the non-college person has $76,000 to invest at 18, giving them a whopping $1.3 million advantage at the age of 58.

That doesn't seem right to me. Either you have the $76,000 or you don't. If you do, you won't borrow it to attend college. If you don't, you can't invest it at age 18.

Is this nitpicking?

Not at all. There's a lot of bad math, bad logic, and poor assumptions in that particular article.

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Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
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Hero_Mike
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I'm confused as well. Why would one assume that it takes an average of 5 or 6 years to graduate from a 4-year university?

I also don't understand the amortization of the costs of student loans during your time studying. In Canada, student loans do not accrue interest until you are 6-months out of school, which means that as long as you continue to be a full-time student (with only a 4 month break during summer terms), you continue to keep your loans interest free.

That said, if someone does not have $76K to invest at age 18, then they would have to borrow it. Not likely if you are 18 and have only the kind of job you can get with high-school employment. Someone could co-sign the loan, but unless it is a no-risk investment or something fully convertible, the bank would want collateral because investments are risky. Now at least in Canada, you can write off the interest on loans for investment purposes, but that still doesn't mean that the bank would want their money back in a fairly short time.

The article cites an income of just under $20k as a high school graduate. That means a before-tax income of $1667 per month. Borrowing $76000 at 6.8% for 15 years is a monthly payment of about $675. Sure, you could get some of that back because of a tax write-off, but each month, the bank still demands their $675. I dare say that this would be prohibitive, and the whole premise breaks down at that point. If you have to borrow that $76K, you have to pay it back. And at an income of $20K per year, you can't do it on any reasonable terms.

Borrowing

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Errata
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I couldn't disagree more with Cervus. There are 2 kinds of debt that really are investments that shouldn't be discouraged: student loans and home mortgages. Of course there are caveats to both. If a student is just going to college because they don't have anything better to do, its maybe not a great idea to invest too heavily.

My undergraduate degree cost 30k a year tuition, plus 10k living expenses anually, for 4 years. My college fund plus parents contribution plus a few merit based scholarships covered about 60%, so it still cost me a lot in loans. I didn't qualify for any need based aid since my parents small business was treated basically the same as if it were liquid assets.

If I didn't make that investment, I flat out wouldn't have the career that I do now. The difference between what I make because of it and the median for my profession is more than the $40k anually I paid for college, and it goes on indefinitely rather than 4 years. If I went to a cheap school I'd be lucky to make the median, and if I didn't go to college I wouldn't be making half the median. Working as a high school graduate for several years to save up that amount would have been a a terrible decision. Going to a state school would have been better than nothing, but it would have cost me much more than I saved.

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MaxKaladin
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
I'm confused as well. Why would one assume that it takes an average of 5 or 6 years to graduate from a 4-year university?

When I was in college (early to mid 90s), it was pretty much taken as given that most students would take more than four years to finish a four year degree at my school. There were a lot of reasons this might happen, but one of the most common ones was that students would take fewer classes each semester so they had more time to work a part-time job to pay for education or living costs. Most degree programs were set up so that you would be taking 15 or more hours each semester, but you were only required to take 12 hours to maintain your full-time student status. Students who were working often took 12 hours to keep up full-time student status (to keep their student loans from going into repayment) and working to pay costs. That meant they ended up taking a few more semesters to finish.
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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Lydia Oh Lydia:
quote:
Older twentysomethings are part of so-called Generation X, which includes those born from the early '60s to the early '80s.
Um, I don't think older Gen-Xrs are really "twentysomethings."

Minor point: the sentence you quoted is saying that older 20somethings are part of Gen-X, not that older Gen-Xers are in their 20s.


As for student loans, predictably I also disagree with Cervus. I would be making less than half of what I make now if I had no degree. Even with my student loan and credit card payments, I have more disposable income now than I would without having gone to college, and I'm using that towards saving for a car or a house. I've been pretty lucky with jobs, but even so, I think student loans are a relatively safe "gamble."

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin:
quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
I'm confused as well. Why would one assume that it takes an average of 5 or 6 years to graduate from a 4-year university?

When I was in college (early to mid 90s), it was pretty much taken as given that most students would take more than four years to finish a four year degree at my school. There were a lot of reasons this might happen, but one of the most common ones was that students would take fewer classes each semester so they had more time to work a part-time job to pay for education or living costs. Most degree programs were set up so that you would be taking 15 or more hours each semester, but you were only required to take 12 hours to maintain your full-time student status. Students who were working often took 12 hours to keep up full-time student status (to keep their student loans from going into repayment) and working to pay costs. That meant they ended up taking a few more semesters to finish.
I think this is not uncommon, but then again your reason for extending your college is that you are paying for it as you go. The article assumes 5-6 years and that all the money is being borrowed.

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Rhiandmoi
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I took 5 years to graduate from a 4 year program. That was with going full time each quarter and taking summer school. I did finish the bulk of my coursework in 4 years, but there were a few classes that I just couldn't take when they were supposed to be according to my flowchart and there were some classes that had to be taken in sequence but I had conflicts so I had to catch the sequence the next year. It was the norm at my uni to take 5 or 6 years just because of course conflicts and sequential courses.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
I'm confused as well. Why would one assume that it takes an average of 5 or 6 years to graduate from a 4-year university?


There are a whole slew of reasons (not limited to the obvious one of changing majors or screwing around too much) why one could find themselves entering their 8th semester and yet be far from one semester's worth of credits to get their degree.

Of all my friends and relatives with degrees I can think of one person who I know for sure did it in four years. The rest of them, either had another semester, or if they didn't, it was because they took summer semesters.

Teaching doesn't even pretend to take four years. With your internship, it takes about 4 1/2 or 5. (that's the Texas requirements) But everyone thinks it's a four year degree.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Avril
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I graduated in the precise 4 years, but that was rare at my school, at it was only because:

1. I had CLEP credits
2. I took two summer semesters
3. I pretty much wrote my senior project on the other summer

I was full time all eight regular semesters and took a rather difficult summer load for two summers. I was working, as are most college students, and just couldn't carry the once expected 18-19 hours per semester. 15 was my maximum, and that nearly killed me, though I did it three semesters straight.

Avril

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
I'm confused as well. Why would one assume that it takes an average of 5 or 6 years to graduate from a 4-year university?

Usually there are schedule conflicts within every degree program.

Some of my upper division classes are only held every other year or only during a certain semester. If two or more required class schedules conflict with each other, as mine have over the years, it ends up pushing back your graduation date. Classes are sometimes unavailable if there's no one to teach it, so students have to take the class during a different semester as soon as the school can find a teacher.

Also, the proposed course schedule for my 4-year degree program expects students to take 14 to 17 credits a semester, even as freshmen, in order to graduate in four years. It also expects students to take summer classes in order for them to graduate in exactly four years. Most students don't want this much stress, so they spread their credits out and often take at least one summer off.

This, combined with scheduling conflicts, can add an extra year or two to the time you're in school.

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
...Also, the proposed course schedule for my 4-year degree program expects students to take 14 to 17 credits a semester, even as freshmen, in order to graduate in four years. It also expects students to take summer classes in order for them to graduate in exactly four years. Most students don't want this much stress, so they spread their credits out and often take at least one summer off....

I'm confused by this statement and the one made by Avril. Are you saying it takes more than 120 credit hours to graduate?

I don't think 15 credit hours is too much to handle for anyone without a job, even a freshman.

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Doug4.7
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It took me 4 years to graduate with a BS in engineering. When I started in engineering, they handed me a schedule of my classes for the next 4 years. I took those classes and got my degree. This was at a largish state sponsored school in Oklahoma (the Sooner one, not the Cowboy one).

I didn't think that was unusual. A friend of mine took a whole lot longer, but he was working fulltime during school (second shift at a GM auto plant). It took him about twice as long (8 years).

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And now for something completely different...

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Errata
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If you're paying the same amount of tuition anyway, why would you want to take the bare minimum credits, even as a freshman? I took around 18-20 per semester, as much as I could get away with, particularly as a freshman when the classes were so much easier than upper level courses. And I did summer semesters too, because I was there to learn. I graduated in 4 years with over 200 out of 120 credits (though some of them were from AP). Some of my friends graduated in 3.5 years, after the first semester of their senior year. More than 4 was fairly unusual. If people with dual majors can graduate in 4 years, there is definitely enough leeway to complete a single major.
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ThistleSoftware
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I graduated in four years despite transferring twice. I took a full load every semester/ quarter. I did not study abroad or do any internships or other extra curricular activities (besides my almost full-time job). I don't think there's anything wrong with taking longer if it means you get more out of the experience, though. I regret not slowing down and really taking advantage of all my university had to offer.

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snapdragonfly
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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
I'm confused as well. Why would one assume that it takes an average of 5 or 6 years to graduate from a 4-year university?

Usually there are schedule conflicts within every degree program.

Some of my upper division classes are only held every other year or only during a certain semester. If two or more required class schedules conflict with each other, as mine have over the years, it ends up pushing back your graduation date. Classes are sometimes unavailable if there's no one to teach it, so students have to take the class during a different semester as soon as the school can find a teacher.

Also, the proposed course schedule for my 4-year degree program expects students to take 14 to 17 credits a semester, even as freshmen, in order to graduate in four years. It also expects students to take summer classes in order for them to graduate in exactly four years. Most students don't want this much stress, so they spread their credits out and often take at least one summer off.

This, combined with scheduling conflicts, can add an extra year or two to the time you're in school.

That is true in many schools, about scheduling conflicts.

It doesn't matter how hard you have your nose to the grindstone: if the classes you need aren't available when you need them (I noticed at my son's school that the math type degrees did arrange them out in a nice little four year plan more so than some other majors) then you cannot graduate in 4 years, as Cervus pointed out, and it has nothing to do with taking light loads or not.

15 hours, if you have difficult classes, is plenty. I don't think anyone should be made to feel as if they are screwing around just because they aren't taking 18 hours.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Aud
We Three Blings


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My college required 124 hours to graduate but they had some goofy requirements that meant pretty much everyone took more than that. For instance they say they required 11 hours of science classes (for non-science majors)but there was no way to do it with out actually taking 15 (with labs etc.) (I may have the numbers off but it was a similar porportion.)

I'm not complaining. I took more classes than required and some of them were higher level than I needed. I'm just pointing out that some schools don't fall into the 120 hours and you're out thing.

I used to think that I wouldn't save for Little_Aud's college fund (at least not right now.) I already paid for college once. But just a few days after we talked about it here the boywonder governer of my state proposed to do away with the higher education loan program that I had used. It's scary to think that the simple things I did to reduce costs for college just might not be around in 16 years. I'm going to start whispering "community college" in her ears now. I would never have considered it when I was 17 but I got a certificate at a community college a few years ago and was very impressed with the quality of education.

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MaxKaladin
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
I'm confused by this statement and the one made by Avril. Are you saying it takes more than 120 credit hours to graduate?

I think mine was 135 hours. It depended on the program, but some could take more than 120 hours to meet both the requirements of the actual major and all of the "core" stuff required by the university as a whole.

quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
I don't think 15 credit hours is too much to handle for anyone without a job, even a freshman.

It depends. It was a generally accepted fact that the university I attended was trying to "weed out" as many freshmen and sophmores as possible. The freshman class load in my first program (I switched majors) was pretty much designed to throw freshmen in deep water to sink or swim. One of my professors (sophmore level class) actually announced on the first day that he was there to weed as many of us out as possible and that he intended to do so to the best of his ability. Personally, I found the last two years a lot easier than the first two. By that point, they seemed to have decided you had survived your trial by fire and eased up on you some.

It isn't always "just" 15 hours, either. Going from a nearly two decade old memory, my freshman schedule was 5 three credit hour classes, a one credit hour lab and a one credit hour PE class -- 17 hours.

Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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I will second what Doug said. (Yes, I know, the end is near.)

I took a 4 year co-op engineering program, which is to say that it took 4 2/3 years of constant work or study - 8 school terms, and 6 work terms of 4 months each. That said, about 85% of my 1st year class, including me, graduating on time and according to schedule. I got an "option" in management - I had to take a few correspondence courses off term to get that, but it still did not affect my graduation date. Several of my classmates went on exchanges to France, Finland and Australia, and graduated on time. In fact, those who did take longer than scheduled happened to have failed a term along the way.

Most engineering and technical programs have very strict requirements for mandatory courses. There are no scheduling conflicts, except with out-of-area electives. If your French literature elective conflicts with core calculus, well, the university expects you to take your lumps and take calculus. The course you *need* takes precedence over the one you would like.

My typical course load for most of university had 5 courses - 3 lab courses, one non-lab course, and one non-technical elective. All courses had 3 hours of lecture plus one of tutorial. Some tutorials were optional, but others were not. Lab courses alternated 3 hours of lab work one week, and 1-3 hours of prep the next. All told, between 23 and 29 hours of class per week.

One term I had a research assistantship - 6 hours per week - and I had a hard time squeezing that in, let alone an actual part-time job.

ETA : I haven't heard from anyone that this is uncommon for programs outside science or engineering in Canadian universities. If the university puts out a required course in a calendar for a given year and program, they are committed to offerring it (or an equivalent) for some number of years after - 6 or 7 years - because those are the graduation requirements for that year of entrance. I've heard this said about arts and humanities programs as well.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Hero_Mike, you confirmed the impression I got from my son's college matriculation, which is that the math and science have it all laid out in a rather more organized manner than some of the other colleges within the same school.

Our local branch of the state school here is rather notorious for offering courses necessary for graduation at random and infrequent intervals.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I, too, in my undergraduate studies had a very tightly laid out schedule. If I had planned properly, I could have gotten a double major in 5 years, but my scholarship ended after 4 and I didn't want to take out any more loans.

Besides, I was going to grad school anyhow and I only needed one major to get in.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I was handed a flowchart. Didn't help me graduate on time. The crop science and biology departments didn't get together and coordinate their offerings for the convenience of the student flowcharts. Everyone I knew had scheduling conflicts, it didn't matter what their major was.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Errata
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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At my college most of the important low to mid level core classes that you didn't have any choice about were broken up into multiple classes at different times of day with different professors to give you options in your schedule and keep class sizes manageable. And by junior and senior year, most of the requirements were significantly more flexible. You could pick from many different specialized classes rather than being forced along a single path. So by then no one scheduling problem could mess up your graduation. I don't know of anyone who couldn't graduate on time due to schedule conflicts. Because of all the choices I was mostly able to avoid morning classes altogether, even overloaded at 20 credits. To me, a schedule conflict was something that forced me to take the 9am version of the class.
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El Camino
We Three Blings


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This all seems a little weird to me, because at my college you aren't ALLOWED to stay for more than 4.5 years. I'm sure the people can weasel their way around this, of course - it says in the handbook "No student will ordinarily be permitted to remain at (the school) for more than nine semesters of full-time work."

Okay, a total highjack here, but I originally had the name of the school in there, like it is in the handbook. But for some reason I have always not revealed the name of my college when I talk about it, even though anyone could find out the name in ten seconds based on my location. I even posted a link once to the school newspaper. But for some reason I feel as though I shouldn't give that away on the internet or something. I've noticed this in others, too: people tend to talk about their colleges indirectly rather than naming them. Look at Doug's post, he seems to be poking fun at this common fact:
quote:
This was at a largish state sponsored school in Oklahoma (the Sooner one, not the Cowboy one).
Obviously I know what school he's talking about instantly. Then again, he's not currently attending, so maybe that means something. But someone could find out the school I'm at almost as easily. I dunno.

As you were.

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
Hero_Mike, you confirmed the impression I got from my son's college matriculation, which is that the math and science have it all laid out in a rather more organized manner than some of the other colleges within the same school.

Although my degree is in a science field (Wildlife Ecology with a minor in Zoology), our core classes are taught by two different schools within several different departments of the university. This leads to a lot of scheduling conflicts.

For example, there's a Department of Wildlife Ecology and a Department of Zoology. Which one do you think is in charge of a class called General Ecology? The Zoology department! Or you could opt to take the Forest Ecology class, which is taught by the School of Forestry and Natural Resources, a separate subdivision of the college of Ag and Life Science.

The Department of Wildlife Ecology, which houses our advisors that create our course planning sheets, barely teaches any of our core classes. The scheduling conflicts that result from this can be absolute hell. Our required upper-division courses are scattered among 8 different departments within the college. Is that normal at most universities?

ETA: The various departments include Botany, Forestry, Zoology, Entomology, Natural Resource Conservation, and Wildlife Ecology. Ironically, we're not required to take any courses taught by the School of Natural Resources and the Environment, which appears to be a parallel but completely separate department of Environmental Science overseen by the same college as the ones I've just listed.

Our major is sort of a composite of various other majors. [Frown]

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Errata
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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El Camino, saying things outright exposes it to google searchability. Personally, I want to limit my vulnerability to data mining. If snopes were only visible to actual posters, I'm sure people would be more free with personal data.
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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by El Camino:
This all seems a little weird to me, because at my college you aren't ALLOWED to stay for more than 4.5 years. I'm sure the people can weasel their way around this, of course - it says in the handbook "No student will ordinarily be permitted to remain at (the school) for more than nine semesters of full-time work."


I think my university's handbook said "we'll let you take up space just as long as you want to, so long as you maintain something greater than a 1.0 GPA and you pay your tuition on time. If you pay your tuition on time, the GPA portion is negotiable."

Not really, but it felt that way.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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The university I attended spelled it out in terms of maximum course attempts and "excluded" courses. A four-year honours degree required 20 units, which is to say, 40 four-month courses taken 5 at a time over 8 academic semesters, as a full-time student. (A full-year course was a half unit, with most listed as four-month courses of 4 units.) The maximum number of course attempts was 25 units, which is to say, you can fail or drop 5 units, or 10 four-month courses. The maximum number of "excluded" courses, including failures, is 3 units, which means you can fail up to 6 courses and drop several others (before the "drop/add" deadline where you are committed to taking a final exam and receiving a grade).

This is what life is like at the UW Math Department, and it is spelled out in this link.

(Yes, I know that I took engineering, but this seems easier to find.)

Particular attention should be paid to disclaimers like this :

quote:
Students are responsible for being aware of all regulations pertaining to their academic plans. This responsibility includes, submitting a completed "Intention to Graduate - Undergraduate Studies" form to the Registrar's Office (by the designated date for submission of such forms) during their last academic study term (i.e., the term in which they anticipate completing the requirements for their degree).
or this

quote:
Incompatibility of Full-time Study with Full-time Employment
Students who by choice or necessity work on non-academic activities more than 10 hours per week should, where possible, structure their course/work load so that they can attend fully to their academic obligations. The Standings and Promotions Committee will not normally grant petitions based on time pressure resulting from employment.

It all seems quite clear to me, and I'm not surprised that there is no sympathy for those who do not do their homework.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

Posts: 1587 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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