posted
When I was at Toys R Us on Friday, there was a sign near the check-outs stating that you might be *asked* to show the contents of your bag upon leaving. Sure enough, there was a security guard next to the exit. I had a small bag with only 3 things, they didn't bother with me.
-------------------- "Invention, my dear friends, is 93% perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% evaporation, and 2% butterscotch ripple." - Willy Wonka Posts: 388 | From: Michigan | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:So your shops do have security gates and alarms, and tagged products too. What's their justification for caryring out an additional search then? - they don't trust their own security systems?
Not every item has tagged products. Most of the high end items and those that are easily stolen (like CDs) do.
However, the security sensors at the doors are pretty much like car alarms now. No one pays much attention. Especially if they're going off at random times. My CD player used to set off the alarm at the gas station across from my work everytime I walked in. The owners knew me well and gave me grief everytime anyway.
The CVS down the street from my work has issues with their gate constantly. The cashiers just roll their eyes and ignore it.
-------------------- "Maybe getting in the last word doesn't really mean you win." - The Clarks Posts: 486 | From: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
When I worked for CVS in my teens, we sometimes would put the activator tags on other workers' backs so that they would set the door alarm off when they left (or walked near the doors). Since the alarm was a loud voice, one would often hear, "We're sorry, we may have forgotten to deactivate the security device from your purchase..."
When you're sixteen, that's HILARIOUS!
-------------------- "Silly customer, you cannot hurt a Twinkie." -Apu (The Simpsons) Posts: 2026 | From: 10 miles South of Boston | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
I have a problem with this at Costco as the people at the doors are usually rude. The other day I walked into Costco with my 4 month old daughter and her diaper bag. I was told at entry they might check my bag when I left. I ignored them and when I left after checking my receipt they told me they needed to check her diaper bag I responded thats fine but first I need $25.00. They just looked at me and said "What?" I repeated I would need $25.00 that this was the fee I charged to rummage through my personal property. As I had no idea where their hands had been and anything in the bag they touched I would have to throw away or re-sterilize.
They refused to pay so I refused the bag search. They threatened to have me arrested I told them where I was Parked and to get my liscense # and I would enjoy chatting with the police about False Imprisonment. As they have no legal ability to search my bag or the cart my grocieries are in. As usual nothing happened.
Posts: 26 | From: Turlock, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by 3rdshifter: I have a problem with this at Costco as the people at the doors are usually rude. The other day I walked into Costco with my 4 month old daughter and her diaper bag. I was told at entry they might check my bag when I left. I ignored them and when I left after checking my receipt they told me they needed to check her diaper bag
How is this rude? I mean, in principle I agree that they have no right to check your bags, but they did provide you warning at the door that they might do this, and you elected to ignore it. Sounds more like you were spoiling than them being rude.
-------------------- Come on, come on - spin a little tighter Come on, come on - and the world's a little brighter Posts: 5595 | From: Columbus, OH : The Soccer Capital of America | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I don't mind having my bags checked, however my purse is small, so small that my check wallet will not fit in properly. Also if I am with K then I don't carry my purse in at all.
3rdshifter, I found it rude of you to say the things that you did, you were told that they might search your bag and they choose to search it. It was not rude of them to ask to search your bag since you were warned that a search might take place. However I do find it annoying when someone gets testy when there is no need for it. If you want things to be sterile put certain items in a plastic ziplock bag, they make them big enough for a house to fit in. That way if they choose to search your bag they are in no way touching things like bottles, pacifiers, and toys.
E*E
-------------------- "Taking all the pain I give you Loving blindly in return And I need you more than ever" WWW.Myspace.com/E_E2000 Posts: 1243 | From: Northern VA | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by 3rdshifter: As I had no idea where their hands had been and anything in the bag they touched I would have to throw away or re-sterilize.
You shouldn't need to "sterilize" anything concerning an otherwise healthy baby. If you're taking the child out in the world, sterilizing is an overreaction.
quote:They refused to pay so I refused the bag search. They threatened to have me arrested I told them where I was Parked and to get my liscense # and I would enjoy chatting with the police about False Imprisonment. As they have no legal ability to search my bag or the cart my grocieries are in. As usual nothing happened.
I think you may have a mistaken idea about what the law is. They actually do have the right to inspect parcels coming into and out of their private property. While they may not be able to detain you, they can ban your from their private property, since you refuse to comply with their well-posted rules.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: I think you may have a mistaken idea about what the law is. They actually do have the right to inspect parcels coming into and out of their private property.
If your laws are anything like Swedish law, perhaps not (in Sweden police officers may search you provided that 1) There has been an actual crime where the minimum punishment is prison, 2) You must be a prime suspect of this actual crime and 3) They have a search warrant issued by a court of law, a prosecutor or a senior police officer in charge of an investigation. They may search you without a warrant if there is risk that you may hide evidence if not searched at once).
I had a talk with a lawyer about these matters once and he said that if there are lockers outside the security checkpoint where you can store your luggage while visiting the shop, library or whatever you might, but just might, have entered an unsigned agreement that if you take your bag inside security are allowed to check it on your way out. He also said that most probably such a claim would be dismissed if tried in court.
ETA some emphasise
-------------------- Små hönor skall inte lägga stora ägg för då blir de slarviga i ändan Posts: 1334 | From: Sweden | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
In this case, though, the issue is about entering private property; the property owners do have a right to require searches as a condition of entry. If you do not agree to it, you simply do not enter the private property, such as 3rdShifter's Costco example. Costco's membership agreement states:
quote:Costco reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack, briefcase, etc., upon entering or leaving the warehouse.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Costco reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack,briefcase, etc., upon entering or leaving the warehouse.
Agreed, but just making a statement like does not make it legal if it's contradictory to the law in the first place, which it might or might not be, but that's another matter.
-------------------- Små hönor skall inte lägga stora ägg för då blir de slarviga i ändan Posts: 1334 | From: Sweden | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
The 4th Amendment of the US Constitution applies to the government. The rights owners of private property posess are pretty strong here, including the right to conduct such a search.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:They refused to pay so I refused the bag search. They threatened to have me arrested I told them where I was Parked and to get my liscense # and I would enjoy chatting with the police about False Imprisonment. As they have no legal ability to search my bag or the cart my grocieries are in. As usual nothing happened.
Yes they do.
I may be wrong on this but AFAIK you can pretty much forget any idea of "rights" beyond the most basic (freedom from violence etc.) the moment you step into private property. People who would shudder at the thought of the government videoing their every movement, monitoring their e-mails, or performing random searches seem to shrug and accept it when it comes from business. This always bewildered me.
-------------------- Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name? Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?
quote:Originally posted by 3rdshifter: I have a problem with this at Costco as the people at the doors are usually rude. The other day I walked into Costco with my 4 month old daughter and her diaper bag. I was told at entry they might check my bag when I left. I ignored them and when I left after checking my receipt they told me they needed to check her diaper bag I responded thats fine but first I need $25.00. They just looked at me and said "What?" I repeated I would need $25.00 that this was the fee I charged to rummage through my personal property. As I had no idea where their hands had been and anything in the bag they touched I would have to throw away or re-sterilize.
Rock on, dude!! How much do you charge the airport for running the bag through the XRay?
-------------------- Nico Sasha In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel. Posts: 4912 | From: VA | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: I think you may have a mistaken idea about what the law is. They actually do have the right to inspect parcels coming into and out of their private property.
If your laws are anything like Swedish law, perhaps not (in Sweden police officers may search you provided that 1) There has been an actual crime where the minimum punishment is prison, 2) You must be a prime suspect of this actual crime and 3) They have a search warrant issued by a court of law, a prosecutor or a senior police officer in charge of an investigation. They may search you without a warrant if there is risk that you may hide evidence if not searched at once).
It works about the same way in the US. (ETA: That only law enforcement officers have "right" to search under certain conditions specified by law, as they are tasked by the State to serve that purpose. Intricacies of probable cause, reasonable suspicion, warrants, etc. would make a thread of its own and are tangental to this discussion.)
- Store has a right to ask for permission to search, and may search when that permission is granted.
- If permission is not granted, store has right to use such threats as banning a person from the store, which the store, as a property owner, can do at its own discretion.
- If permission is not granted, store has right to call police and detain the person on the premeses until police arrive so long as there is reasonable suspicion that the person is stealing something. But refusal to submit to search is not in itself evidence of wrongdoing, so even if the store was stupid enough to try this - I've never heard of it happening - there's really nothing the police can do.
That's about it. Stores don't get police powers, aside from the limited right to detain suspected shoplifters, and even then under very specific conditions, violation of which opens the store to serious civil and criminal liability. People in America have civil rights which do not disappear simply because we're on someone else's property.
It's unfortunate that my fellow Americans feel otherwise, and it's this ignorance that makes bag-check policies feasible.
-------------------- Thinking about New England / missing old Japan Posts: 2603 | From: Virginia | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
If I have a problem with my bags being checked, I simply do not enter someone else's private property...
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: If I have a problem with my bags being checked, I simply do not enter someone else's private property...
If the owner of that property has a problem with my refusal to have my personal property searched, he can ask me to leave and I am legally obligated to do so...
If I invite you to my home I can't force you to do things just because you're on my property. My only right as a property owner is to ask you to leave, and to call the police to forcefully remove you if you refuse.
-------------------- Thinking about New England / missing old Japan Posts: 2603 | From: Virginia | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I do not believe I have made any claims counter to that, FFA.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Curiously, I don't mind it at Costco. The checkers are really friendly about it and on one occasion, they found that I had been charged for two of something I only had one of.
It does bother me at Best Buy. I guess it's a combination of the check being right near the cashier, where you could be seen paying for your merchandise, being put off by asking repeatedly if I want to buy some sort of insurance on my item (Clie styli? Are you kiddig?" and the fact that it is usually before the big metal/magnetic detector thingy.
Also, there is something different about someone looking in your cart and having to open a bag.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: I do not believe I have made any claims counter to that, FFA.
Well, you said:
quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: The 4th Amendment of the US Constitution applies to the government. The rights owners of private property posess are pretty strong here, including the right to conduct such a search.
Property owners have no right to search. They can ask. They can order a person to leave if he/she refuses. They can terminate a membership contract if applicable.
But the store never has a right to search. The Fourth Amendment does not protect us from *any* involuntary search and seizure from other citizens because when another citizen searches you against your will it is - depending on the situation - unlawful detainment, theft, assault, etc.
-------------------- Thinking about New England / missing old Japan Posts: 2603 | From: Virginia | Registered: Mar 2001
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-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
So what happens when they search my diaper bag and find some diapers that they carry or some formula or anything else. I shop at costco and would have several of their items in my childs diaper bag. Doesnt mean i stole them but now they find them and accuse me of stealing now i have to prove i bought the items on a previous trip?
Secondly what in the heck does costco sell small enough to fit in a diaper bag? All the small big ticket items are locked away in a cage that you go to after you purchase the product to claim with your receipt. Other than that they sell in bulk thats why the baskets and carts are oversized.
And I have every right to charge a fee to inspect a bag or whatever. Time is money and its cheaper to pay the fee than make me look like a criminal when I have done nothing to look like one. And when I am found innocent they dont apologise. If i was a litigious person i could take them to court for False imprisonment / Unlawful detainment, Slandering my image etc.
Posts: 26 | From: Turlock, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Have you ever had a problem with your diaper bag at Costco before?
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote: As they have no legal ability to search my bag or the cart my grocieries are in.
The cart is their property. While a valid argument can be made over whether or not it's right to search a customer's private property, the cart belongs to the store and thus they can do anything they want with it.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Things I could steal from Costco and put in a diaper bag: Movies CDs Books Software Socks Bacon Cheese Lotion Makeup Pens
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
posted
But would you have an entire 70 pound bale of Costco diapers in your bag? Or the 1 million count babywipes?
Seriously, I have gone to Costco before with neices and nephews before when they were at the diaper-bag needing stage of things and have never been searched.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I don't mind having my bags searched. Only Wal-mart and Best Buy do this in my area and since I rarely go to either one, it isn't a big deal to me when it happens. I understand why stores have to do it; if it cuts down on theft, I'm all for it. I would certainly never become snippy with the employees for doing their jobs.
Posts: 50 | From: Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I'm a bit puzzled that there's a fuss about this.
Here, many stores have signs which say that a condition of entry to the store is that your bags may be searched. So if you don't like it, don't go in the store with your bags, or shop somewhere else. Simple.
Posts: 225 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 3rdshifter: And I have every right to charge a fee to inspect a bag or whatever. Time is money and its cheaper to pay the fee than make me look like a criminal when I have done nothing to look like one. And when I am found innocent they dont apologise. If i was a litigious person i could take them to court for False imprisonment / Unlawful detainment, Slandering my image etc.
But you agreed to having your bags searched as soon as you accepted the membership. The Costco membership agreement states:
quote:Costco reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack, briefcase, etc., upon entering or leaving the warehouse.
By accepting the membership you indicated that you agreed with and would comply with all parts of the membership agreement, including bag searches. Why did you accept the membership if you objected to bag searches? Did you even read the user agreement when you signed on? Why do you still shop there when you so strongly disagree with part of their membership agreement?
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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I have no comment on US law but as the law pertains to Australian citizens, most retail stores do, in fact, list the right to ask permission to inspect any bags you may carry before you leave the store.
That right is listed in the "Conditions of Entry" which the store must display. It doesn't even need to be prominently displayed, just as long as it is visible (they can't hide it, basically). You don't have to verbally agree or sign anything... by entering the store you have agreed to the conditions.
As the customer, you have every right to refuse permission for the search. In which case the store has the right to detain you until a police officer arrives to carry out the search.
During my traineeship, a police officer gave a lecture on what we could or could not do in these sorts of situations. We were told that we could actually physically restrain a customer if they refused to be detained, although he suggested to hold them by their clothing rather than by their person.
So, in Australia at least, you can expect that your bag will be searched. If you don't like that, you can expect to be detained until a police officer is available to do the search. Being an asshat about it does not make you right, it makes you an asshat.
If it is such a big concern, then you could probably call ahead to various stores to find out what their conditions of entry are before you enter... or simply avoid shopping.
-------------------- "victory thru self-deception" Posts: 2211 | From: Western Australia | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I worked at K-Mart for a couple of years. We were told to never, under any conditions try to detain or restrain anyone. We were to call our security person and watch the person under suspicion until security arrived. Most of the time if we could get a person to surrender the object without confronting them we did. K-Mart just wanted their stuff not a law suit. Litigation was a number one concern.
As far as I know in the states a retailer cannot detain a person unless they have very very good evidence that this person actually stole something. For example security video, finding merchandise on the customer after seeing the lifting incident.
[hi-jack]Here's a good one that really happened when I managed Lay-a-way: This woman claimed to have picked a VCR up in lay-a-way with no lay-a-way bag or receipt prominently stapled on the box, and had actually asked the person in electronics to get the VCR down from the overhead about five min. before being stopped while breezing past the check out. Oh and she had cigarettes too! She claimed to have had cigarettes on lay-a-way. [/hi-jack]
Refusing a bag search is most definitely not something that K-Mart would detain someone for. Nor should they. I believe we were told it's criminal, not to mention that it could potentially be a lawsuit from heaven for the detainee.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Which is why I framed my response in terms of how I understand things work in Australia
I've no idea what, if any, parallels there are between US law and Australian law in regards to the rights of citizens in stores.
Oh, the other thing to keep in mind is that none of my fellow trainees or I worked anywhere large enough to have internal security (or mall security, for that matter). I'm sure under those circumstances that the advice would've been "call security and let them deal with it".
As an aside, while I was out doing some Christmas shopping I was rather amazed at the number of times we heard "Security, please report to..." announced over the PA system. I think it was around once every 5 minutes or so.
Yet another aside... I often thought I'd like a job as plain-clothed security -- where you basically walk around and pretend to shop all day. Then I figured I'd end up spending all day in the electronics or toys department instead of wherever else I was supposed to be patrolling and that it probably wasn't such a good idea after all.
-------------------- "victory thru self-deception" Posts: 2211 | From: Western Australia | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 3rdshifter: So what happens when they search my diaper bag and find some diapers that they carry or some formula or anything else.
They can ask if you bought it there. They can hope that, if it is stolen, you panic and admit to shoplifting. That's about it.
The point of the searches is - so far as I know - to catch shoplifters with a guilty conscience. A lot of shoplifters will panic when verbally confronted.
Additionally, receipt checks are useful to stop employee theft - where a cashier will not run up some expensive items for a co-conspirator.
It apparently stops enough people to make it worthwhile to post someone there for some stores.
But it's still voluntary.
ETA: Costco can probably terminate your membership for any reason. I don't go to member stores so I have no idea how those contracts work.
-------------------- Thinking about New England / missing old Japan Posts: 2603 | From: Virginia | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by 3rdshifter: And I have every right to charge a fee to inspect a bag or whatever. Time is money and its cheaper to pay the fee than make me look like a criminal when I have done nothing to look like one. And when I am found innocent they dont apologise. If i was a litigious person i could take them to court for False imprisonment / Unlawful detainment, Slandering my image etc.
But you agreed to having your bags searched as soon as you accepted the membership. The Costco membership agreement states:
quote:Costco reserves the right to inspect any container, backpack, briefcase, etc., upon entering or leaving the warehouse.
By accepting the membership you indicated that you agreed with and would comply with all parts of the membership agreement, including bag searches. Why did you accept the membership if you objected to bag searches? Did you even read the user agreement when you signed on? Why do you still shop there when you so strongly disagree with part of their membership agreement?
What?? But then she wouldn't be able to buy goods for cheap!!. Do you really expect a customer to shop for items at low prices without protesting about store policies that keep the prices low? That's un-American, Jenn!! Why do you hate America, Jenn? Why??
-------------------- Nico Sasha In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel. Posts: 4912 | From: VA | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by 3rdshifter: So what happens when they search my diaper bag and find some diapers that they carry or some formula or anything else. I shop at costco and would have several of their items in my childs diaper bag. Doesnt mean i stole them but now they find them and accuse me of stealing now i have to prove i bought the items on a previous trip?
Secondly what in the heck does costco sell small enough to fit in a diaper bag? All the small big ticket items are locked away in a cage that you go to after you purchase the product to claim with your receipt. Other than that they sell in bulk thats why the baskets and carts are oversized.
Your two points contradict each other.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Finite Fourier Alchemy: It apparently stops enough people to make it worthwhile to post someone there for some stores.
That's really it. Stores know that customers don't like bag and receipt checks and the employees don't particularly like having to do it. They know it's annoying and inconvenient and most stores do their best to streamline the process and be as friendly as possible about it.
If a store goes ahead with the searches, it means that it's saving them a whole lot of money. They wouldn't do it if it didn't work. Shoplifting and employee theft cost stores massive amounts of money. Prices may go up to compensate and the store may go out of business from the losses.
quote:Mad Jay wrote: That's un-American, Jenn!!
Good reason for that
-------------------- "You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!" Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000
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