quote:Originally posted by Morrigan: Now how about an answer?
Morrigan
Well, I have less than you and Lady Annora, but I do have more than none.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Could you, though? If you wanted to enter a ticketed public event just to show police presence and were refused entry at the gate, do you have authority to go in anyway?
If it is a private event open to the public, the no not just as a show of police presence. what I was talking about was someone inside the event calling the police to respond for something. In that case I will be going in. But again I have never had a vendor refuse entry as they seem to like the free presence there and the fewer problems that are a result.
quote:I don't kowtow to officers either. I would never consent to you seaching my car on general principle. I know it makes your job harder, and I'm sorry, but I'm going to exercise my rights. Looking for a missing child? No problem, I'll consent to a quick search of the trunk, and then end my consent to search. Looking for drugs?
I'm not out to violate anyones rights, in fact I want to protect them. I know my job, I know what my legal limits are and I abide by them. It does irritate me however when people THINK they know what their right is and they are wrong. I arrested a lady who was the driver of a car on a warrant. I then started performing a search incident to arrest on the vehicle to which her husband began screaming at me that he didn't give consent to search the vehicle and I was violating his rights and it was only because he was black and he was going to sue me and have my badge. You know what? Sue me then, I can defend my actions because they were legal, and I know how to do my job.
I don't mind anybody excersising their rights, but if someone is going to claim a violating of them, it would be nice if they knew what they were talking about.
-------------------- I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. -- On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs by LTC. Dave Grossman, USA (Ret) Posts: 675 | From: Arizona | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
After reading 3 straight pages of posts, all I can say is WHEW!
While nearly everyone has made some great points, I liked Dark Blue's post best. I think it answered everything.
My husband has been pulled over for speeding 5 times since I've known him (20 years).
1) Going 35 on a road with a 25 mph, where there is nothing but a flat stretch of road with two houses. The officer was very nice, admired his car (a '70 Duster that DH had restored himself) and apologized for giving him the ticket, saying his partner would be upset if he didn't. No one on this stretch of road does the speed limit, as a matter of fact, most people do upwards of 40. The police are known to set up a speed trap here. The fact that no one does the limit is certainly no excuse to speed, and DH did not use it;
2) Going just 5 miles over a 25 mile limit on a street lined with businesses. I was with him this time. The PO that pulled us over was very rude, but did not give him a ticket;
3) Going 38 in a 25 zone right after the speed limit change on the road. The officer was again very nice and actually wrote up the ticket for less miles so that the fine would be less;
4) Going 50 in a 35 zone. I was with him and we were just returning from a concert. We had dropped off my brother in an area where there are known drug dealers. We believe that the police thought we were scoring drugs. Once the officer ran our plates, she let us off with a warning. Very polite, again;
5) Going 70 in a 55 mph on an interstate, keeping up with the flow of traffic. Again, I was with him and again, the officer was very nice. DH didn't try to lie or scam, he just told him, "I have no excuse for speeding." The officer gave us a warning.
It sounds like he is a speed demon, but he is not. He never speeds when the kids are in the car.
I think most officers will give (generic)you the benefit of the doubt if they receive honesty and politeness in return. Unless, of course, you are doing something blatantly illegal.
Regarding the use of turn signals: I see more than enough civilian drivers not use them than police officers. Since I see more civilan drivers than police in the course of a day, I'll have to do a bit of analysis to see who is guilty of non-use of turn signals more.
A note for the parking situation: A number of years ago, there were a few reserved spaces downtown around the courthouse for police. When other metered spaces began to get filled with cars that had the "Police Business" sign or the like, the city started ticketing them. I do believe they only ticketed non-City cars, which really ticked off the other municipalities. I don't think they do this any longer.
-------------------- "Maybe getting in the last word doesn't really mean you win." - The Clarks Posts: 486 | From: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dark Blue: I'm not out to violate anyones rights, in fact I want to protect them. I know my job, I know what my legal limits are and I abide by them.
Your legal limits are set because some officer in the past violated someone's rights; if I ever think my rights are being violated I'm going to pursue the matter.
I'm certainly not going to yell at you like an ass (as in your example) because in the hypothetical case where I think you are violating my rights, I have the benefit of using the courts. And if I'm wrong, and a lawyer tells me I'm wrong, I get to save face and not make an idiot of myself on a dashcam for World's Whiniest Police Videos.
I'm sure actual civil rights violations are very rare these days, but, you know, eternal vigilance and all.
The point I was trying to make is that I can like cops and I can exercise the Constitutional rights at the same time.
-------------------- Thinking about New England / missing old Japan Posts: 2603 | From: Virginia | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Ya know what? I should really post a positive police story as long as I'm here.
Approx 13 years ago, my future wife and I were in the process of moving one state north (to that college town I keep mentioning, which I would rather not call by name, but whose school mascot looks like a red version of Grimace). I was still working nights here in Tennessee, which led to several sad nights of me sleeping at my parent's house while my fiancee slept alone in the scary new apartment.
So late one night, after getting off work, I decided to make the hour-long drive and surprise her. Well, I must have been sleepier than I thought, because halfway there I was pulled over for weaving.
No ticket, not even a warning. Just a concerned officer who genuinely wanted to make sure I didn't kill myself. He asked me several questions about my situation, my fiancee's major, and so on... It didn't occur to me until later that his questions were meant to gauge my level of alertness (and to make sure I wasn't drunk).
If I could keep incidents like that on my mind instead of the others I've encountered, I probably wouldn't have such a sour view overall.
-------------------- I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism. MyspaceNWNBoard Posts: 917 | From: Nashville TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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ComicBookGeek
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: LadyAnnora, what good reason could there possibly be for an officer who is merely cruising down the street, no lights, no sirens, to not use their turn signal?
Is something so minor really worth getting your blood pressure up? Next time it happens, just think about the last officer who got shot and can no longer run a redlight.
posted
It's annoying to me (and no, it doesn't raise my blood pressure) because of something called a pretext stop.
Basically, a cop can pull you over for a traffic infraction when what they really want is to take a look in your backseat, or run your ID because they suspect...something. They don't have any actual evidence for probable cause, so they need a pretext.
Since the motor vehicle code is long, and detailed, and in some ways unrealistic*, a cop following a car will always end up legitimately observing an infraction, such as improper turn signal use. So, they rely on that provision in order to pull people over. I expect them to be able to follow it if they are going to pull someone over for not following it.
*For example, in my state, there is a minimum distance (not amount of time) that a turn must be signaled ahead of actually turning. That distance was such that, in the house I used to live in, I could not legally turn into my own driveway unless I went up an extra block and came back down. My house was too close to the corners to be able to legally signal from the corner and then make the turn. No, I never got a ticket, but it bothers me that if an officer ever wanted to pull me over for it, they could have, while not obeying the same rule themselves. (And yeah, I also think the law ought to be changed).
ComicBookGeek
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dark Blue: [QB] I'll try to answer a few questions from my experience.
1) Activating lights to get through an intersection deal.--First there are many calls where getting to them quickly but stealthy is needed. An example would be an alarm at a bank. If there is a bank robber inside, police need to respond fast and be set up quickly to manage the scene correctly. However it is best if the robber not know police are there. We would rather get the robber outside unaware and deal with him then tip him off we are there while he is inside the bank and turn it into a hostage situation. It is more effective to these goals to quickly turn my lights on and zip through an intersection then go lights and sirens blazing. This is just a single example of this type of call. Secondly- There may be a reason that doesn't require lights and sirens, but I need to get to quickly. If I hit a red light and it is the only thing slowing me down from me getting to that location then I might do this as well. An example would be an officer checking out with 2 people behind a closed business in an area with high number of burglaries. If he is a few blocks away, and I'm stuck at a light, and know that the road ahead is clear and the red light is my only obstacle, I might get through the intersection so I can back that officer up quickly in case he really is out with dangerous persons.
[\QUOTE]
Does your jurisdiction/precint/city/whatever not have the little remote thingy where you can manually change a light to green? Our officers* have them here and I just think it's ingenious.
*well, our fire department does. I'm pretty sure the police have them, too
quote:Does your jurisdiction/precint/city/whatever not have the little remote thingy where you can manually change a light to green? Our officers* have them here and I just think it's ingenious.
*well, our fire department does. I'm pretty sure the police have them, too
No we do not, and yes our fire department does, but it is only activated when their emergency lights are on. Why we don't have them I don't know.
quote:The point I was trying to make is that I can like cops and I can exercise the Constitutional rights at the same time.
I agree
-------------------- I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. -- On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs by LTC. Dave Grossman, USA (Ret) Posts: 675 | From: Arizona | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
The thing about officers flipping on their lights and driving through a red light reminded me of a story a friend of mine told me. When he was with a department in this area, he was driving along a relatively busy area, and not paying attention, when he noticed that he was cruising through a red light, so he turned on his overheads quick. Sometimes, I guess it just happens.
I work at a port of entry, so I don't do on-the-road patrol, but I admit that sometimes I don't use my turn signal as diligently as I should. I try to drive as defensively as possible, whether I'm driving my own vehicle, or a g-ride, because I've been hit too many times not to be that way.
Erwins mentioned pretextual stops. These are pretty common down here close to the border. I've been stopped a few times by the US Border Patrol on pretext, and I don't care. Hell, we work for the same agency. I just don't get to drive around and I don't need probable cause to stop and search persons, baggage, and vehicles at the border.
-------------------- NO BETTER FRIEND, NO WORSE ENEMY -- "I grok when apes learn to laugh, they'll be people." Posts: 727 | From: Southeastern Arizona | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: LadyAnnora, what good reason could there possibly be for an officer who is merely cruising down the street, no lights, no sirens, to not use their turn signal?
Is something so minor really worth getting your blood pressure up?
Who said it got my blood pressure up?
quote: Next time it happens, just think about the last officer who got shot and can no longer run a redlight.
What does that have to do with anything?
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: ottercreek, I think I agreed with every word you just posted.
I was thinking about starting a log of cops violating the rules of the road, and then forwarding that to our chief of police, and, in fact, started one. But all I was doing was making notes in it; the cops around here wouldn't know a turn signal if it bit them (though, they would probably taze it dead!). So I stopped doing the log and will ocassionally gripe on my blog about it.
Okay...so maybe no-one is standing there with a blood pressure cuff, but I think it's a pretty applicable colloquialism to apply in this situation. You used lack of turn signals to support your position of police breaking the law. This is so minor an infraction that it appears you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Just not willing to jump on the police are bad bandwagon because of a lousy turn signal.
quote: Next time it happens, just think about the last officer who got shot and can no longer run a redlight.
What does that have to do with anything?
It's about putting things in perspective.
-------------------- Where are my pants and why am I wearing this helmet? Posts: 27 | From: Ogden, UT | Registered: Oct 2006
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-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: ottercreek, I think I agreed with every word you just posted.
I was thinking about starting a log of cops violating the rules of the road, and then forwarding that to our chief of police, and, in fact, started one. But all I was doing was making notes in it; the cops around here wouldn't know a turn signal if it bit them (though, they would probably taze it dead!). So I stopped doing the log and will ocassionally gripe on my blog about it.
Okay...so maybe no-one is standing there with a blood pressure cuff, but I think it's a pretty applicable colloquialism to apply in this situation. You used lack of turn signals to support your position of police breaking the law. This is so minor an infraction that it appears you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Just not willing to jump on the police are bad bandwagon because of a lousy turn signal.
You need to re-read the quote you just posted. AnglRdr didn't say that police were bad, or even that they broke the law. She said they violate the rules of the road.
Perhaps that colloquialism about blood pressure would be better applied to you.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: [qb] ottercreek, I think I agreed with every word you just posted.
I was thinking about starting a log of cops violating the rules of the road, and then forwarding that to our chief of police, and, in fact, started one. But all I was doing was making notes in it; the cops around here wouldn't know a turn signal if it bit them (though, they would probably taze it dead!). So I stopped doing the log and will ocassionally gripe on my blog about it.
Okay...so maybe no-one is standing there with a blood pressure cuff, but I think it's a pretty applicable colloquialism to apply in this situation. You used lack of turn signals to support your position of police breaking the law. This is so minor an infraction that it appears you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Just not willing to jump on the police are bad bandwagon because of a lousy turn signal.
You need to re-read the quote you just posted. AnglRdr didn't say that police were bad, or even that they broke the law. She said they violate the rules of the road.
Perhaps that colloquialism about blood pressure would be better applied to you.
But I think the log of their traffic violations is going a bit overboard.
-------------------- And on the 7th day, God said, "Let there be lips!" Posts: 296 | From: Munhall, PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: ottercreek, I think I agreed with every word you just posted.
I was thinking about starting a log of cops violating the rules of the road, and then forwarding that to our chief of police, and, in fact, started one. But all I was doing was making notes in it; the cops around here wouldn't know a turn signal if it bit them (though, they would probably taze it dead!). So I stopped doing the log and will ocassionally gripe on my blog about it.
Okay...so maybe no-one is standing there with a blood pressure cuff, but I think it's a pretty applicable colloquialism to apply in this situation. You used lack of turn signals to support your position of police breaking the law. This is so minor an infraction that it appears you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Just not willing to jump on the police are bad bandwagon because of a lousy turn signal.
You need to re-read the quote you just posted. AnglRdr didn't say that police were bad, or even that they broke the law. She said they violate the rules of the road.
Perhaps that colloquialism about blood pressure would be better applied to you.
Thanks, Lainie...
Good grief, LadyAnnora, you seem to be taking my dislike of officers' non-use of turn signals a little too personally. In the grand scheme of things, I would much rather an officer not use his/her turn signals than I would have him/her, say, traffic cocaine.
I don't think cops should be above the law they're sworn to enforce. You seem to be okay with letting it go with a wink and a nod. To me, it is an issue of integrity. Where would you draw the line?
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr: [qb] ottercreek, I think I agreed with every word you just posted.
I was thinking about starting a log of cops violating the rules of the road, and then forwarding that to our chief of police, and, in fact, started one. But all I was doing was making notes in it; the cops around here wouldn't know a turn signal if it bit them (though, they would probably taze it dead!). So I stopped doing the log and will ocassionally gripe on my blog about it.
Okay...so maybe no-one is standing there with a blood pressure cuff, but I think it's a pretty applicable colloquialism to apply in this situation. You used lack of turn signals to support your position of police breaking the law. This is so minor an infraction that it appears you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Just not willing to jump on the police are bad bandwagon because of a lousy turn signal.
You need to re-read the quote you just posted. AnglRdr didn't say that police were bad, or even that they broke the law. She said they violate the rules of the road.
Perhaps that colloquialism about blood pressure would be better applied to you.
But I think the log of their traffic violations is going a bit overboard.
Yes, Nancy. Did you stop reading before I said I stopped doing it?
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
[/QUOTE]You need to re-read the quote you just posted. AnglRdr didn't say that police were bad, or even that they broke the law. She said they violate the rules of the road.
Perhaps that colloquialism about blood pressure would be better applied to you. [/QUOTE]But I think the log of their traffic violations is going a bit overboard. [/qb][/QUOTE]
Um, violating the rules of the road IS breaking the law. But Nancy, you backed up what my original point was exactly. AnglRdr has stated the she was upset enough to begin to keep a log about violations, specifically honed in on lack of turn signals later on, and then counters when someone uses the colloquialism "get your blood pressure up" to refer to her attitude about turn signals. Don't see how pointing that out makes me candidate for BP medication.
-------------------- Where are my pants and why am I wearing this helmet? Posts: 27 | From: Ogden, UT | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote: Good grief, LadyAnnora, you seem to be taking my dislike of officers' non-use of turn signals a little too personally. In the grand scheme of things, I would much rather an officer not use his/her turn signals than I would have him/her, say,traffic cocaine.
I don't think cops should be above the law they're sworn to enforce. You seem to be okay with letting it go with a wink and a nod. To me, it is an issue of integrity. Where would you draw the line? [/QB]
Well AnglRdr, I'm in full agreement that police shouldn't traffic cocaine. Cops that traffic cocaine, abuse force, etc. should be treated like crimnals (just like any other citizen.) Cops that fail to use turn signals should be ignored for the most part, and on occasion, someone should say to them "Hey man, you forgot to use your turn signal, you might want to watch that next time." (just like any other citizen.)
It seems to me that it you want to hold the police to a higher standard of compliance than the average citizen, and to a degree I agree with that police have a greater moral obligation to be good examples (not legal). If I got pulled over and given a ticket for failure to use a turn signal, and then a call was placed to my employer and a letter of reprimand was put into my file, I would think that it was an unfair punishment for an extremely minor infraction. I would more or less think it appropriate for an officer to let a citizen off "with a wink and a nod" for failing to use a turn signal, therefore, I'm not willing to see an officer reprimanded harshly for the same thing.
I'm not taking "turn-signals" any more personally that I would any example of an minor moving violation. You are the one whole selected the term, I've merely continued to use it for clairity.
-------------------- Where are my pants and why am I wearing this helmet? Posts: 27 | From: Ogden, UT | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by LadyAnnora: But Nancy, you backed up what my original point was exactly. AnglRdr has stated the she was upset enough to begin to keep a log about violations,
She also said, and repeated above, that she decided against doing so.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Lady Annora, you do seem rather worked up and seem to take quite a bit of offense at the idea that some cops do break the laws they are paid to enforce, like angels said, you seem to be OK with overlooking cops breaking traffic laws with a wink and a nod.
People who don't like police in general don't like them because of the fact that one bad cop can ruin a persons life, make it a living hell and there is nothing the person can do about it.
I don't have anything against the cops who conduct themselves with integrity, but I am wary of all cops because I have been present at times where cops have overstepped their powers, have bullied and threated people, in one case, a child. Until I can see for 100% for certain that this person is a person of honor, I will not assume so just because of a badge and a uniform.
But there is no way you can understand why some people are wary of and dislike the police until you have been in the utterly powerless position of having a rogue cop after you or yours.
Interestingly, every time I have been stopped, I have been treated politely, and I've never been given a ticket, only warnings even though at least once I certainly deserved a ticket.
-------------------- ~All we see or seem is but a dream within a dream~ E.A.Poe
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today. ~James Dean~ Posts: 516 | From: Anderson, Indiana | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: Good grief, LadyAnnora, you seem to be taking my dislike of officers' non-use of turn signals a little too personally. In the grand scheme of things, I would much rather an officer not use his/her turn signals than I would have him/her, say,traffic cocaine.
I don't think cops should be above the law they're sworn to enforce. You seem to be okay with letting it go with a wink and a nod. To me, it is an issue of integrity. Where would you draw the line?
Well AnglRdr, I'm in full agreement that police shouldn't traffic cocaine. Cops that traffic cocaine, abuse force, etc. should be treated like crimnals (just like any other citizen.) Cops that fail to use turn signals should be ignored for the most part, and on occasion, someone should say to them "Hey man, you forgot to use your turn signal, you might want to watch that next time." (just like any other citizen.)
It seems to me that it you want to hold the police to a higher standard of compliance than the average citizen, and to a degree I agree with that police have a greater moral obligation to be good examples (not legal).
[/qb] It seems to me that you are pulling that perception not from what I have actually been saying, but rather from a misinterpretation of what I have been saying.
quote:If I got pulled over and given a ticket for failure to use a turn signal, and then a call was placed to my employer and a letter of reprimand was put into my file, I would think that it was an unfair punishment for an extremely minor infraction. I would more or less think it appropriate for an officer to let a citizen off "with a wink and a nod" for failing to use a turn signal, therefore, I'm not willing to see an officer reprimanded harshly for the same thing.
Why would your employer put a letter of reprimand in your file? Unless your job was as a professional driver of some sort, or you were driving a company car, then would such an infraction really impact your duty to do your job?
However, if, in the course of my day, I witness an officer doing something that puts the safety of others at risk, then do you think I should just sit on that information? Or, as a member of the public, do I not have the right to express my concerns to the chief?
I'll ask again: when should officers' violations of the law be ignored, and when should they be reported?
quote:I'm not taking "turn-signals" any more personally that I would any example of an minor moving violation. You are the one whole selected the term, I've merely continued to use it for clairity.
I think that, perhaps, you may be underestimating your reaction just a bit, LadyAnnora. You have made some pretty personal attacks in this thread. I am going to stick with my assertion that you're taking it incredibly personally.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote: Good grief, LadyAnnora, you seem to be taking my dislike of officers' non-use of turn signals a little too personally. In the grand scheme of things, I would much rather an officer not use his/her turn signals than I would have him/her, say,traffic cocaine.
I don't think cops should be above the law they're sworn to enforce. You seem to be okay with letting it go with a wink and a nod. To me, it is an issue of integrity. Where would you draw the line?
Well AnglRdr, I'm in full agreement that police shouldn't traffic cocaine. Cops that traffic cocaine, abuse force, etc. should be treated like crimnals (just like any other citizen.) Cops that fail to use turn signals should be ignored for the most part, and on occasion, someone should say to them "Hey man, you forgot to use your turn signal, you might want to watch that next time." (just like any other citizen.)
It seems to me that it you want to hold the police to a higher standard of compliance than the average citizen, and to a degree I agree with that police have a greater moral obligation to be good examples (not legal).
It seems to me that you are pulling that perception not from what I have actually been saying, but rather from a misinterpretation of what I have been saying.
quote:If I got pulled over and given a ticket for failure to use a turn signal, and then a call was placed to my employer and a letter of reprimand was put into my file, I would think that it was an unfair punishment for an extremely minor infraction. I would more or less think it appropriate for an officer to let a citizen off "with a wink and a nod" for failing to use a turn signal, therefore, I'm not willing to see an officer reprimanded harshly for the same thing.
Why would your employer put a letter of reprimand in your file? Unless your job was as a professional driver of some sort, or you were driving a company car, then would such an infraction really impact your duty to do your job?
However, if, in the course of my day, I witness an officer doing something that puts the safety of others at risk, then do you think I should just sit on that information? Or, as a member of the public, do I not have the right to express my concerns to the chief?
I'll ask again: when should officers' violations of the law be ignored, and when should they be reported?
quote:
Taking the general tone and totality of some of your statements, it seems to indicate that you feel that an officer failing to use a turn signal is something that is a violation of the law, inappropriate and ought to be reported. Even though you said you ultimately did not, you admitted that this was something that irked you enough that you were motivated to keep a log about it, something you intended to forward to the chief of police. Doing so would result in the officer reciving a reprimand and note of citzen complaint in his file. Hence the reference above.
If you see an officer doing something that endangers public safety, absolutely by all means it should be reported. But in the same way that we appreciate it when the police can excercise discretion and reason when addressing our all to human mistakes, I don't think it unreasonable to apply the same standards the other direction. After all, super human perfection is not standard issue. If you think it reasonable and just and a true benefit to society to crack down on minor traffic moving violations, than by all means apply that same standards to the police. If you feel that minor traffic violations should be enforced with an amount of discretion then apply that same standard across the board as well. That's where I "draw the line."
quote:I'm not taking "turn-signals" any more personally that I would any example of an minor moving violation. You are the one whole selected the term, I've merely continued to use it for clairity.
I think that, perhaps, you may be underestimating your reaction just a bit, LadyAnnora. You have made some pretty personal attacks in this thread. I am going to stick with my assertion that you're taking it incredibly personally. [/QB]
I am indeed underestimating my reaction if you say I've been making pretty personal atatcks...please show me what they are and I will be more than happy to clairfy or apologize as appropriate.
-------------------- Where are my pants and why am I wearing this helmet? Posts: 27 | From: Ogden, UT | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I'm not quoting; too many long posts because of long quotes. Not that I'm not guilty of it myself...
...which brings me to this. Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Unless those who are critcizing police officers for using their lights to go through intersections, not using turn signals, etc. are absolutely perfect drivers 100% of the time, they shouldn't be critical of the driving habits of police officers or anyone else for that matter.
We are human, and we all make mistakes. Sometimes a cop has a valid reason for doing some of these things, sometimes not. Who are we to know whether there's a reason or not? I'll give the benefit of the doubt every time to the cop who may be the one to respond when my house has been burglarized, the ambulance driver who might someday drive me to the hospital, or the firefighter who might douse the flames in my home.
-------------------- And on the 7th day, God said, "Let there be lips!" Posts: 296 | From: Munhall, PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by LadyAnnora: Taking the general tone and totality of some of your statements, it seems to indicate that you feel that an officer failing to use a turn signal is something that is a violation of the law,
You said it was a violation of the law, Lady Annora.
quote:inappropriate
It is inappropriate.
quote: and ought to be reported.
I think officers should use their turn signals. But it's more than *just* turn signals, which I discussed.
quote:Even though you said you ultimately did not, you admitted that this was something that irked you enough that you were motivated to keep a log about it, something you intended to forward to the chief of police. Doing so would result in the officer reciving a reprimand and note of citzen complaint in his file. Hence the reference above.
Is that how all police departments are run? I cannot imagine that every citizen's phone call about an officer would result in a reprimand; I trust the officers' union here would be up in arms about something like that, as they should be.
Citizen complaints should be investigated, however, particularly if they involve an officer violating the law.
What I would hope would come of my actions is that, department-wide, officers would be instructed about the rules of the road, and they would make more of an effort to comply.'
My goal isn't to get anybody in trouble, Lady Annora.
quote:If you see an officer doing something that endangers public safety, absolutely by all means it should be reported. But in the same way that we appreciate it when the police can excercise discretion and reason when addressing our all to human mistakes, I don't think it unreasonable to apply the same standards the other direction.
I don't know how many more times I have to say that I am willing to cut them some slack.
quote: After all, super human perfection is not standard issue. If you think it reasonable and just and a true benefit to society to crack down on minor traffic moving violations, than by all means apply that same standards to the police. If you feel that minor traffic violations should be enforced with an amount of discretion then apply that same standard across the board as well. That's where I "draw the line."
I have never been cited for failure to use a turn signal. It is something that I do as a habit.
quote:
quote:I'm not taking "turn-signals" any more personally that I would any example of an minor moving violation. You are the one whole selected the term, I've merely continued to use it for clairity.
I think that, perhaps, you may be underestimating your reaction just a bit, LadyAnnora. You have made some pretty personal attacks in this thread. I am going to stick with my assertion that you're taking it incredibly personally.
I am indeed underestimating my reaction if you say I've been making pretty personal atatcks...please show me what they are and I will be more than happy to clairfy or apologize as appropriate. [/QB][/QUOTE] Read the thread.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by happyholidaysfrog: Lady Annora, you do seem rather worked up and seem to take quite a bit of offense at the idea that some cops do break the laws they are paid to enforce, like angels said, you seem to be OK with overlooking cops breaking traffic laws with a wink and a nod.
People who don't like police in general don't like them because of the fact that one bad cop can ruin a persons life, make it a living hell and there is nothing the person can do about it.
I don't have anything against the cops who conduct themselves with integrity, but I am wary of all cops because I have been present at times where cops have overstepped their powers, have bullied and threated people, in one case, a child. Until I can see for 100% for certain that this person is a person of honor, I will not assume so just because of a badge and a uniform.
But there is no way you can understand why some people are wary of and dislike the police until you have been in the utterly powerless position of having a rogue cop after you or yours.
Interestingly, every time I have been stopped, I have been treated politely, and I've never been given a ticket, only warnings even though at least once I certainly deserved a ticket.
I'm going to change just a few words in the above quoted post, and see it doesn't make a point.
People who don't like African Americans in general don't like them because of the fact that one bad African American can ruin a persons life, make it a living hell and there is nothing the person can do about it.
I don't have anything against the African Americans who conduct themselves with integrity, but I am wary of all African Americans because I have been present at times where African Americans have overstepped their powers, have bullied and threated people, in one case, a child. Until I can see for 100% for certain that this person is a person of honor, I will not assume so just because of a badge and a uniform.
But there is no way you can understand why some people are wary of and dislike African Americans until you have been in the utterly powerless position of having a rogue African American after you or yours.
This shouldn't be necessary, but I want to clarify that in NO WAY whatsoever and I commenting on African Americans. Decades of civil rights efforts have made us sensitive to racial relations, and that's why I chose this example. My point is, we would have very little tolerance if people were trying to justify their dislike of racial group using this kind of logic...yet is seems okay to be biased against police because we can put forth a few antecdotes.
-------------------- Where are my pants and why am I wearing this helmet? Posts: 27 | From: Ogden, UT | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Lady Annora, you do see the huuuuge difference between what AnglRdr has said and what happyholidaysfrog said -- right?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lainie: Lady Annora, you do see the huuuuge difference between what AnglRdr has said and what happyholidaysfrog said -- right?
Absolutely!!! In essence, it's what I believe I've been arguing all along. Bad Cops? String em' up and set them on fire as an example to the world! (some sarcasm intended). Cops that hurt people, abuse the use of force, engage in criminal activity get no NO sympathy from me. But I'm make a distinction between police corruption, and failure to use a turn signal (or any other minor moving violation that we would be willing to extend reason to the average citizen on.) My point in responding happyholidaysfrog is that there seems to be a tone that it's okay to dislike, mistrust whathaveyou the police because each and everyone of us can name real and specific incidences of "bad" cops. However, we aren't very tolerant applying that logic across the board. If I essentially tried to justify my distrust or bias against a racial, religious, etc. group because I have specific examples of when individuals from that group had behaved horribly, I would hope that someone would call foul.
-------------------- Where are my pants and why am I wearing this helmet? Posts: 27 | From: Ogden, UT | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Did you have a choice as to what race you were born?
Did you have a choice as to what job you would work at?
My point is made.
I find it interesting that you completely ignored the entire point of my first post in this thread opting to bring racism in as a comparison.
Individual races do not have the power to legally detain you, they have no special powers to abuse.
The profession of maintaining the peace comes with great power. You say the law breaking cops ought to be treated as criminals, but the truth is that their crimes have to be really blatant for them to be punished for them and a lot of cops will look the other way when they should be calling out a fellow cop for breaking the law. So yes, I am wary of the power of police officers but I never ever said I think they are all bad, there are those who have integrity and behave with honor. I don't see what's wrong with my wait and let people(even cops) prove themselves to me before I trust them.
-------------------- ~All we see or seem is but a dream within a dream~ E.A.Poe
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today. ~James Dean~ Posts: 516 | From: Anderson, Indiana | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by happyholidaysfrog: Did you have a choice as to what race you were born?
Did you have a choice as to what job you would work at?
My point is made.
I don't understand your point, actually. Are you saying that it's all right to assume the worst of cops because they chose to be cops?
quote:I find it interesting that you completely ignored the entire point of my first post in this thread opting to bring racism in as a comparison.
Actually, she used an analogy to make the point that she thought you were harboring unfair prejudices against cops.
quote:The profession of maintaining the peace comes with great power. You say the law breaking cops ought to be treated as criminals, but the truth is that their crimes have to be really blatant for them to be punished for them and a lot of cops will look the other way when they should be calling out a fellow cop for breaking the law.
That's a very commonly expressed belief, but I've never heard anyone offer any actual proof of it. Are you the exception to that rule?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
A few weeks ago, my mom was driving a neighbor to school and she was T-boned by a police officer who ran a red light, apparently without the proper care since he drove right into my mom's door (actually, I guess he hit the axle, which may have saved her life--I didn't get a chance to see the car before it was repaired, but I know the axle was broken and pieces of police car were embedded into our minivan). The road was wet and covered with leaves, thus so slippery that she couldn't stop, despite slamming on the brakes, and he turned on his lights as he entered the intersection (so she couldn't see him in time to stop anyhow). They determined that he was at fault. It seems that sometimes at least (I don't know how common this is, nor do I know where the officer was going or why he was in a hurry) officers may not use the best judgment when deciding whether they can run that red light or not!
Posts: 22 | From: University of Maryland | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Lainie, please show me where I said that I assume the worst of all cops? Please, because if you are going to accuse me of unfairly judging an entire group of people I want to know what it is that I'm saying that makes you think that.
The only word I used in connection with all cops was wary, and I am, but I would be with most any stranger at first. I am more wary of cops because of the power they have. This comes directly from personal experience.
Wary, according to webster means
quote:wary : marked by keen caution, cunning, and watchfulness especially in detecting and escaping danger
I do not feel think the worst of ALL cops, I fully recognise there are plenty of good cops and would trust a cop with integrity. All I am doing is protecting myself. I have also seen cops abusing the system and putting a person through hell, all because of a grudge.
I do not feel I judge all police officers unfairly, I feel my approach is fair, it's about a person proving their character. Did you miss where I said that I'd been treated politely by several cops after being stopped?
I said very clearly.
quote: every time I have been stopped, I have been treated politely, and I've never been given a ticket, only warnings even though at least once I certainly deserved a ticket
I don't see how I'm being unfaily prejudiced against cops. I know the bad cops are the "human element" of the profession, just like you have rotton people of every profession.
Also, about the comparison, it was about being born a certain way VS the choosing of a certain path.
I have tattoos, several of them, and I knew when I got them that there would be people out there in the world who would prejudge me because of that. By getting tattooed I knew what I was getting into, it was a choice I made. We are often, in this world judged by choices we make, from how we dress to what profession we are to how we conduct ourselves.
In my humble opinion that is a far cry from judging someone on something they had no choice in, such as the color or sex they were born.
Edited to add, I deduct that the turning their heads at crimes happens in the police because it's a commen human trait. I've seen it in so many other working enviroments that I would be shocked if it wasn't there.
-------------------- ~All we see or seem is but a dream within a dream~ E.A.Poe
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today. ~James Dean~ Posts: 516 | From: Anderson, Indiana | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by happyholidaysfrog: Lainie, please show me where I said that I assume the worst of all cops? Please, because if you are going to accuse me of unfairly judging an entire group of people I want to know what it is that I'm saying that makes you think that.
I didn't accuse you of anything. I asked you to clarify your point. Obviously I still don't get it.
quote:Also, about the comparison, it was about being born a certain way VS the choosing of a certain path.
I have tattoos, several of them, and I knew when I got them that there would be people out there in the world who would prejudge me because of that. By getting tattooed I knew what I was getting into, it was a choice I made. We are often, in this world judged by choices we make, from how we dress to what profession we are to how we conduct ourselves.
In my humble opinion that is a far cry from judging someone on something they had no choice in, such as the color or sex they were born.
Well, I would argue with someone who judged tattooed people too, or who judged anyone based on anything except their conduct. It's a common human trait, and I'm guilty of it myself sometimes, but it's wrong. I still don't get your point about cops.
What assumptions are you, or other people, making about cops based on their decision to be cops?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Why would you ask me if I thought the worst of all cops if you didn't feel like I had already alluded to that?
I know people who do, based on their expereience, but I am not one of them. I am not defending their actions, but I am trying to offer an explanation as to why they feel as they do.
Instead of calling it a wariness, let me rephrase that. I have a healthy respect for police and the power they have. Not a trust, but a respect.
I'm not talking about whats "wrong" or "right". I'm talking about reality. It isnt' right for people to judge me by my tattoos, but it is reality that they do.
If you can't discern by now the difference between prejudice against things people cannot help VS prejudice brought on a person by their life choices then there is nothing more I can do to make it any clearer.
The only "assumption" (which really isn't an assumption at all) is that they have power to arrest and detain and when one gets a grudge they can put a person through A LOT of misrey. I don't assume that every cop I see is bad, but I acknowledge the possibility is there.
-------------------- ~All we see or seem is but a dream within a dream~ E.A.Poe
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today. ~James Dean~ Posts: 516 | From: Anderson, Indiana | Registered: Oct 2005
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