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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by PeterK:
No, I agree with ThistleSoftware, I'm not some totally colour-blind idealist, but I just don't understand how someone's race could possibly make them unattractive. Culture, language, religion, interests - sure. But not race per se.

Perhaps I can explain it. I find pale skin very attractive. We're talking almost goth pale. A non-white is unlikely to have skin this color, so it would be fair to say that I prefer white women. Does this mean that all non-whites are unnatractive to me? Not at all, but the chances of a person that I find attractive is white are gratly increased.

I used to have a crush on Winona Ryder and Christina Ricci. Halle Berry does nothing for me. However, I do find Lucy Lui hot.

It is not racist to prefer certain physical characteristics in a mate. It is racist to rule out a mate who you find attractive on the basis of race.

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

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ottercreek
The First USA Noel


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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by PeterK:
No, I agree with ThistleSoftware, I'm not some totally colour-blind idealist, but I just don't understand how someone's race could possibly make them unattractive. Culture, language, religion, interests - sure. But not race per se.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
Perhaps I can explain it. I find pale skin very attractive. We're talking almost goth pale. A non-white is unlikely to have skin this color, so it would be fair to say that I prefer white women. Does this mean that all non-whites are unnatractive to me? Not at all, but the chances of a person that I find attractive is white are gratly increased.
I used to have a crush on Winona Ryder and Christina Ricci. Halle Berry does nothing for me. However, I do find Lucy Lui hot.

It is not racist to prefer certain physical characteristics in a mate. It is racist to rule out a mate who you find attractive on the basis of race.

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i think

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ottercreek
The First USA Noel


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post deleted, urgent matter to tend to
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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
And some here seem to put WAY too much emphasis on physical features anyway.
I say that you can fall in love with good looks, but you love the person.

Good looks, as subjective as they (luckily) are, are usually the first impression that makes us take notice and get from the falling in love stage to the love stage. After that, looks doesn't really matter.

Call me shallow, but there are some women I look at a second and a third time when I pass them in the street and women I hardly notice. It's probably our DNA and instincts at work, but it's still a fact, shallow or not. We are hardcoded to react sexually to certain looks, and while our intellect can make us attracted to other things as well, the animal in us will still react to appearance.

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/Troberg

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edu-macated
Deck the Malls


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I know, I know. I am very bad for coming back so late, but I haven't been able to physically.

Not that I was tied up in a dungeon, trying to cut the key to my chains out of my co-detainee or anything. Almost though...

I do so love me some snopesters. I lurk way more than I ever post, but when I do post it is with a passion, and I am rewarded with the replies. Sometimes I think that simply posting in Rantidote is completely the therapy I am looking for.

The backstory is quite boring actually. A long time mentor of mine broke my heart with his unmasking, and a gorgeous little girl suprised me and went to bat with him.

In a pretty world, she would have humiliated him with words and walked away victorious. In the real world, I carried her (metaphorically) hurt and humiliated away.

Anyway, at least I learned the mouse can roar and my convictions can stand up to the worst kind of battering.

Still, you snopesters amaze me. [Smile]

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There is no sense in being pessimistic. It wouldn't work anyway.

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1958Fury
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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I hate to ressurrect a dead thread, but this seemed like the best place to put it. Just this past week I found an old high school buddy of mine, and we've started e-mailing each other a lot. He's very intelligent on most subjects. -but- He doesn't like homosexuals.

We've been discussing it, and all his "reasons" just seem silly to me. They all seem like he made the decision first (the "ick" factor), and built up his rationalizations around it. In fact, most of his reasons are on that humorous list of "10 reasons gay marriage is wrong" (which he has seen).

He claims his beliefs are not religion-based. But that "1+1=2, there's a key and a keyhole, it's obvious what nature intended" etc. He read my post-election day blog where I angrily ranted on and on about America's homophobes, and he accused me of being too harsh by using the word "bigots" to describe people who discriminate against gays. Apparently there's plenty of perfectly rational reasons for unfairness towards a minority, and using sweeping words like "bigot" was beneath me.

I need ammo here.

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I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism.
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Jay Tea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I think we're all likely to find the natural instincts of others unpalatable for various reasons, but to use this as a basis for 'not liking' a whole demograph isn't a very mature or intelligent piece of reasoning.

Homophobia, like a lot of social instincts 'are' human nature and hard to convince against in the individuals that react these ways and this is perhaps what your friend is getting at, but your friend is also (sadly) somewhat trogladyte in saying he doesn't 'like' homosexuals just because they are different from him.

How does he react to people he doesn't know well enough to understand their sexuality? Is he suspicious of people he might 'think' are gay? What if one of his best friends told him he was homosexual? What of gay women and bisexuals?

I suspect that his feelings represent either closet homosexuality/bisexuality within himself, or at the very least they are fuelled by misunderstanding/fear/crass ignorance, which undermines your grasp on his intelligence perhaps.

Yes, there are social explanations to reacting to certain human behaviour in certain ways, but he should be looking to make some progress, personally, with his reactions, because we've moved on somewhat from our savage, instinctive ways.

I personally wouldn't want to be anywhere near a man who could call you a friend one minute and claim to dislike you upon discovering you were gay - hit him with that.

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This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever...

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BluesScale
Deck the Malls


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I will listen to the argument of "it is what nature intended" only from hunter gatherers.

If he is emailing you, I am guessing that he uses unnatural things like electricity :-)

Blues.

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1958Fury
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Good stuff in there, JT, I'd say more but I have to leave for work now. But one specific thing before I go...

quote:
Originally posted by Jay Tea:
I personally wouldn't want to be anywhere near a man who could call you a friend one minute and claim to dislike you upon discovering you were gay - hit him with that.

Heh, I very nearly used something similar in the e-mail I sent him last night. But I was afraid he might take it as an ultimatum, and I don't want to lose him until I know more. He said something to me in his last letter that got to me... he made sure I understood that he knew I was transgendered - but NOT gay. As if he was saying, "that's why it's okay that you're still my friend"... but I might have been reading too much into what he said.

Btw, he believes that people are born homosexual, but he considers it "a brain defect, like pedophilia." But I swear, other than these views, he seems to be very intelligent.

--------------------
I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism.
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Jay Tea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Btw, he believes that people are born homosexual, but he considers it "a brain defect, like pedophilia." But I swear, other than these views, he seems to be very intelligent.
If he cannot be made aware that any 'defects' that exist in terms of homosexuality are, in the modern world, within him, then he simply cannot claim to be particularly 'socially' advanced at any rate.

It's a tough situation to deal with. A man I once would have called a 'mate' progressed down the route of believing the UK should be white Anglo Saxon only to the point of pure bigotry (same guy I mentioned on page one) and even white supremacy as a whole.

Pointing out the intellectual flaws in his admittedly evil arguments didn't dent his zeal in the slightest - our frustration with him left us undermining him, then insulting him, which was not what we wanted either. Finally I traced his roots and pointed out that despite the northern accent and Union Jack Tattoo, he was in fact an immigrant himself (as most Brits are to a point), and indeed he had some Jewish history too (he's anti-semitic as well).

Cut no ice. People like this are determined to face their fears and ignorance in the mannar I describe and to be honest I think he should be put down - but that's another can of worms [Smile] )

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This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever...

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Soft Hyphen
I Saw Three Shipments


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Treating such people in a condescending manner and acting like you have the moral high ground (it's irrelevant that you do) is a sure-fire way to get them to oppose your ideas.

People hate it if they are judged negatively because of their opinion on a given subject, and quickly get ultra-defensive.

My advice is to approach the argument as neutrally as you can - as if you were discussing the economic merits of the latest merger between ABC Corporation and XYZ Industries. Use logic, don't use value judgements. Don't nitpick or use inflammatory examples. Keep the debate friendly. I know that's easier said than done, but try.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Soft Hyphen:
Use logic, don't use value judgements. Don't nitpick or use inflammatory examples. Keep the debate friendly.

Except that we've been doing that on various topics of progressive interest for, I dunno, decades, and it really hasn't seemed to impact anyone.

On the other hand, the highly hyperbolic tactics of the conservatives who believe in social stagnation seem to gain many, many adherents (and their money).

Perhaps if we pillory them, loudly and publicly, and expose their ignorance and irrationality, perhaps we can dissuade others who have not yet formed their thoughts from following in their footsteps.

I don't hold out much hope for changing the minds of people like that one way or another. Best thing to hope for, is that they die out quickly and with causing the minimum of damage.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Soft Hyphen
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.:
quote:
Originally posted by Soft Hyphen:
Use logic, don't use value judgements. Don't nitpick or use inflammatory examples. Keep the debate friendly.

Except that we've been doing that on various topics of progressive interest for, I dunno, decades, and it really hasn't seemed to impact anyone.
I don't know what planet you're living on, but it sure ain't the Earth I know. Here, both left and right love to insult each other. The conservatives like to use words like "immoral" and "godless" and whatnot, but the liberals can hardly claim to be "above that sort of thing" while calling their opponent "bigots", "neanderthals", "religious nuts" or, as you just did, wishing for their quick death.
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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Soft Hyphen:
but the liberals can hardly claim to be "above that sort of thing" while calling their opponent "bigots", "neanderthals", "religious nuts"......

Dude, that's totally logical, though!

I've got it for you: [fish]

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Soft Hyphen
I Saw Three Shipments


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Political movements always have less persuasive force than a good friend.

Take advantage of the fact that this person is someone who likes you and trusts you (at least to an extent) and vice-versa. If you want to convince him, do not turn yourself into his enemy.

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1958Fury
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Ryda, Hyphen, you two have a real "yin-yang" thing going on there... Sorry, Ryda, I'm going to have call yours "Plan B"... He already thinks I'm nuts, I'd rather not lose any more credibility. (But don't put the riot gear away quite yet, Ryda... you never know.)

Btw, I am guilty of some misunderstanding... some of what my friend said, I took to be his opinion on homosexuals in general, when he was specifically reffering to gay marriage. A subtle but significant difference, and just as disappointing to me.

He still thinks homosexuality is "unnatural", though, and he has some rather antiquated views of what he considers "normal" in life.

(edited for spelling)

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I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism.
Myspace NWN Board

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Amigone201
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
Ryda, Hyphen, you two have a real "yin-yang" thing going on there... Sorry, Ryda, I'm going to have call yours "Plan B"... He already thinks I'm nuts, I'd rather not lose any more credibility. (But don't put the riot gear away quite yet, Ryda... you never know.)

Btw, I am guilty of some misunderstanding... some of what my friend said, I took to be his opinion on homosexuals in general, when he was specifically reffering to gay marriage. A subtle but significant difference, and just as disappointing to me.

He still thinks homosexuality is "unnatural", though, and he has some rather antiquated views of what he considers "normal" in life.

(edited for spelling)

You said that he thought homosexuality was a "defect" much like pedophilia. You might be surprised to find that I agree.

I don't believe pedophiles have made themselves that way, or that something in their past caused them to be that way. Frankly, I don't know how people become pedophiles, and I don't care, just as long as they're not acting on it. Because that hurts children.

I don't know how or why people become homosexuals either. I'm pretty sure, based on talking to all the gay people that I know, that they just are, and they have no idea why either.

The difference is, homosexuals aren't hurting anyone. Joe Gay Guy can have sex with as many men as he wants, but so what? Who cares? It's none of our business and it's not hurting anybody. His love is the same as mine for my girlfriend.

If you have sex with children, however, you mess them up for life. So there's a DAMN good reason to outlaw pederasty (but not pedophilia).

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Check out my blog! http://fundiewatch.blogspot.com

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1958Fury
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Amigone201:
You said that he thought homosexuality was a "defect" much like pedophilia. You might be surprised to find that I agree.

The word "defect" sounds terribly negative - it's something that makes something worse. Pedophiles (I would assume) wish they didn't have such feelings. While I can't speak for all homosexuals, a well-adjusted gay person is often happy to be exactly who he is.

If you believe that a straight brain is "normal" (a word that has so many meanings that it actually has none), then at worst I would call homosexuality a "variation", like an unusual hair color or being double-jointed.


quote:
Originally posted by Amigone201:
Frankly, I don't know how people become pedophiles, and I don't care, just as long as they're not acting on it. Because that hurts children.

It's a sidetrack, but my friend thinks that all pedophiles should be locked up, whether they act on it or not. I understand his point (kind of sums up as "better safe than sorry"), but I can't possibly support punishing people for potential crimes they might commit some day. It's nuts. It's like "pre-crime" from Minority Report.

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I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism.
Myspace NWN Board

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Amigone201
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
quote:
Originally posted by Amigone201:
You said that he thought homosexuality was a "defect" much like pedophilia. You might be surprised to find that I agree.

The word "defect" sounds terribly negative - it's something that makes something worse. Pedophiles (I would assume) wish they didn't have such feelings. While I can't speak for all homosexuals, a well-adjusted gay person is often happy to be exactly who he is.
Fair enough. I was going for shock value anyway [Smile] Just as long as I convey the point that I don't think homosexuality or pedophilia is something you can control.
quote:
If you believe that a straight brain is "normal" (a word that has so many meanings that it actually has none), then at worst I would call homosexuality a "variation", like an unusual hair color or being double-jointed.
That works for me.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Amigone201:
Frankly, I don't know how people become pedophiles, and I don't care, just as long as they're not acting on it. Because that hurts children.

It's a sidetrack, but my friend thinks that all pedophiles should be locked up, whether they act on it or not. I understand his point (kind of sums up as "better safe than sorry"), but I can't possibly support punishing people for potential crimes they might commit some day. It's nuts. It's like "pre-crime" from Minority Report.
While we're at it, let's start throwing Muslims off planes at random; after all, they might be terrorists.

--------------------
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Jusenkyo no Pikachu
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Michigan Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
Maybe it's a prejudice of my own, but racism is one of those things that immediately knocks 10 points off a person's IQ. I halfway with that was on the actual IQ tests: "Are you racist? (minus 10 points)."

But do you think people who are racist will admit it, even to themselves?

An example is my dad: "I'm not racist. I had black friends in high school. And no, I don't think calling someone a 'towel-head' is offensive."

Yes, he did say that and when I called him on it acted all surprised.

I have had friends from all across the world. Generally, they've been lovely people. I work in a packaging job with people with disabilities (they're usually a friendly bunch, although they can be annoying--some more than others). My supervisor is Iranian, as is one of the others on my floor.

Yet I still have to strain to avoid giving funny looks to disabled people or people of other races. And I get nervous when talking to gay people, as I think I might say something inappropriate.

--------------------
"Never underestimate a nerd from outer space."
--Von, that alien from that Kids Incorporated episode.

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
Pedophiles (I would assume) wish they didn't have such feelings. While I can't speak for all homosexuals, a well-adjusted gay person is often happy to be exactly who he is.

But is that due to the difference in how society views pedastry vs homosexuality? If sex with children was somehow accepted and did no inherent damage to the child, whould a pedophile still wish to be "normal"?

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
Pedophiles (I would assume) wish they didn't have such feelings. While I can't speak for all homosexuals, a well-adjusted gay person is often happy to be exactly who he is.

But is that due to the difference in how society views pedastry vs homosexuality? If sex with children was somehow accepted and did no inherent damage to the child, whould a pedophile still wish to be "normal"?
Isn't that pretty much an unanswerable question? The reality is that sex with children is not, and never will be accepted and it does do "inherent damage" to children. To try to have a theoretical "what if..." discussion of this nature seems about as logical as sitting around debating "if shooting random strangers was socially acceptable would a person still wish to remain a non-killer?"

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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It isn't an entirely useless question. If the pedophile's antipathy is due to societal pressures, then the method of "fixing" the pedophilia would be different than if it were due to a built-in drive that such feelings were wrong.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Archie2K
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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@GenYus: I think you're right. Assuming that pedophilia is a genetic trait then the option the person has is to act on the urges or not to act on them. My guess is that if pedophilia were not illegal and a child could reasonably give consent then there wouldn't be the same desire to override genetic pedophilia

BUT

I've seen plenty of homosexuals on TV horrified that they were born with that trait and desperately wishing they could become heterosexual. I can perfectly understand that way of thinking. If anything that makes the homophobic arguments even more ridiculous. Why would people choose to follow a social pattenr that will grant them derision and discrimination.

Because they're all sex crazed freaks. Got it.

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Vox populi vox canem

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