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Author Topic: "You can't say that..."
Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Gagh.

I am tired of people - from whatever position, pinion and background - making comments like (presented as examples only):

"...you're not allowed to say anything bad about Muslims now."

"But of course, you can't criticise Israel, because of the Holocaust."

"You can't say anything against gays now."

"They come here and you're not allowed to say anything about it."

GAGH


YES YOU CAN NFBSKING SAY THAT! YOU JUST NFBSKING DID! NO NFBSKING NFBSK IS STOPPING YOU! GROW THE NFBSK UP!

People disagreeing with what you're saying, or wishing you didn't say it, does not equate to 'not being allowed' to say it.

NFBSKing martyr-complex-having-mother-NFBSKers.


and...breathe

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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Friends of Alfred
The First USA Noel


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quote:
NFBSKing martyr-complex-having-mother-NFBSKers
You are not allowed to say this.


Runs away.......

--------------------
There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

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Mickey is a Hanukkah Bush
O Come Let Us Adore Sales


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What bothers me is people that say all Muslims are evil. Most of the extremists that want all people that they don't like dead, and using Islam for their reasons, usually haven't read the Q'oran.

So it's a munchkin of mine when people are so ignorant.

And can you give us some examples of the "forbidden phrases"?

--------------------
My mom, about my nervousness with Jeopardy!: "Don't worry about it. Just get drunk and you'll do fine."
Blog Just call me Mickey 2

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Jordashe
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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You beat me to the obvious response.

The sad thing is, I don't know anyone who considers censoring themselves.

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unklesamta
Deck the Malls


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Mickey, where do you see people saying "all muslims are bad?"

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

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Mickey is a Hanukkah Bush
O Come Let Us Adore Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by unklesam's under the boardwalk:
Mickey, where do you see people saying "all muslims are bad?"

I see it in a Jewish chat room I hang out in, as well as from my father (while my mother and I both assert that the Q'oran does NOT say what they claim. She has read theh Q'oran, I've started reading it, and we both have Muslim friends that tell us what the real deal is with the extremists), and many other people I personally know IRL. I feel like I'm in the minority by trying to correct them, so most of the time, I roll my eyes and don't bother at all.

--------------------
My mom, about my nervousness with Jeopardy!: "Don't worry about it. Just get drunk and you'll do fine."
Blog Just call me Mickey 2

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unklesamta
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Mickey is a Hanukkah Bush:
quote:
Originally posted by unklesam's under the boardwalk:
Mickey, where do you see people saying "all muslims are bad?"

I see it in a Jewish chat room I hang out in, as well as from my father (while my mother and I both assert that the Q'oran does NOT say what they claim. She has read theh Q'oran, I've started reading it, and we both have Muslim friends that tell us what the real deal is with the extremists), and many other people I personally know IRL. I feel like I'm in the minority by trying to correct them, so most of the time, I roll my eyes and don't bother at all.
I didn't realize. Being that nearly one billion people claim the Muslim faith, I for one am glad they are not all evil...we would be screwed.

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

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nurple
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Mickey is a Hanukkah Bush:
quote:
Originally posted by unklesam's under the boardwalk:
Mickey, where do you see people saying "all muslims are bad?"

I see it in a Jewish chat room I hang out in, as well as from my father (while my mother and I both assert that the Q'oran does NOT say what they claim. She has read theh Q'oran, I've started reading it, and we both have Muslim friends that tell us what the real deal is with the extremists), and many other people I personally know IRL. I feel like I'm in the minority by trying to correct them, so most of the time, I roll my eyes and don't bother at all.
I often hear that all Muslims are evil terrorists from a small handful of people at work. I've talked to them about it several times now, even saying that I have Muslim friends and it upsets me when they say that, but it doesn't seem to have sunken in to their puny little skulls.

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"You better respect the Rap or the Rap won't respect you." Ledatru

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nurple
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by unklesamta:
Being that nearly one billion people claim the Muslim faith, I for one am glad they are not all evil...we would be screwed.

Indeed.

--------------------
"You better respect the Rap or the Rap won't respect you." Ledatru

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
Gagh.

I am tired of people - from whatever position, pinion and background - making comments like (presented as examples only):

"...you're not allowed to say anything bad about Muslims now."

"But of course, you can't criticise Israel, because of the Holocaust."

"You can't say anything against gays now."

"They come here and you're not allowed to say anything about it."

GAGH

I understand and can fully appreciate your frustration. I cannot stand it when people say something asanine, such as "the crime rate only started going up when blacks started moving into the area" and then follow it up with "but you you're not allowed to say that because it wouldn't be 'politically correct'". BAH! It's an asanine double-whammy: dumbass comment followed by an equally dumbass 'qualifier'. [flame]

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Mickey is a Hanukkah Bush
O Come Let Us Adore Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by unklesamta:
quote:
Originally posted by Mickey is a Hanukkah Bush:
quote:
Originally posted by unklesam's under the boardwalk:
Mickey, where do you see people saying "all muslims are bad?"

I see it in a Jewish chat room I hang out in, as well as from my father (while my mother and I both assert that the Q'oran does NOT say what they claim. She has read theh Q'oran, I've started reading it, and we both have Muslim friends that tell us what the real deal is with the extremists), and many other people I personally know IRL. I feel like I'm in the minority by trying to correct them, so most of the time, I roll my eyes and don't bother at all.
I didn't realize. Being that nearly one billion people claim the Muslim faith, I for one am glad they are not all evil...we would be screwed.
So aren'cha glad there are people like my mom and me, that try to say "That's like saying all Jews are ugly, with big noses" or "All British people have bad teeth"? (Which, FTR, I do not believe either. I hate overgeneralizations like that!)

--------------------
My mom, about my nervousness with Jeopardy!: "Don't worry about it. Just get drunk and you'll do fine."
Blog Just call me Mickey 2

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Mickey - Methuselah's post gave an example of what I'm getting at. It isn't that things *are* forbidden, more that people act as though they are and then bitch about it.

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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Purple Iguana
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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You can say whatever you want, to whoever you want, whenever you want... you just have to accept the potential consequences of your actions.

For example, my dad used to know a die-hard Harley guy who came to work one day with a shirt on that said, "If you ain't on a Harley, you ain't shit." Dad knew this guy and really got along with him, or else he never would have said, "Do you realize that your shirt is saying that if you ARE on a Harley, you ARE shit?" And, had he not been on extraordinarily good terms with this guy, he might have gotten a fist in the teeth for his trouble.

There are certain things that are racist or sexist or just plain not nice to say. If you consider yourself a generally good, tolerant, empathic person, you will avoid saying such things because you care about other people's feelings and do not wish to hurt anyone. If you couldn't care less about other people's feelings, maybe you keep yourself to yourself because you're worried about sneers and gasps from the PC crowd.

But I say, be up front about this crap. I would rather someone say something truly stupid like "All Muslims are terrorists" so that I know to avoid them entirely... rather than hang around with someone for years whose racism accidentally slips out one day.

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They just don't make crazed, beserk robots like they used to. --Sheen Estevez, Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius

If I manage to post something swipe-worthy that you would like to make your sig, you may do so with my blessing.

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Dog Friendly
Carol of the Bills


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I've managed to give people pause on occasion, by asserting that what we now mock as "political correctness" is really just a thin strip of territory around the borders of good manners.

Sure, people might be forbidden from using certain language or saying certain things in a work-related situation. I can well understand certain things not being allowed in a business relationship. An entertainer in a club, for example, might well be expected to abide by certain standards set by the club's owner, in order to continue earning money for performing at that venue or others owned by the same outfit. I've no problem with this.

But aside from that, there's this thing called the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, that pretty unequivocally guarantees any asshat the right to advertise his or her idiocy for the world to see. This is a good thing, and one I'd rather we didn't change.

Dog (Not "beaners", Mary, "legumo-Americans!) Friendly

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"Nobody ever got stoned and beat up his old lady" -- Spence, snapdragonfly's friend

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Honeybunch
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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You know, for us lot it's not a big thing to say "all Americans are wankers"; due, in large, to the wanky nature of your government types & the press your moral minority seem to garner over ridiculous issues and actions. "American wankers" isn't censored, in fact it seems to be used as a smug buzzword by Australians to make us feel superior to what people perceive Americans believe.

Then you come to a site like this, which restores your faith in Americans & makes you doubt the negative press/generalisations. American people aren't wankers, and you lot are complete proof of that. I just wish your voices were heard in a larger forum just so that those who do generalise about America can be shot down.

Thanks guys!

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Purple Iguana
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Oh, Honeybunch... you say that because here on the snopes boards, you get to take folks one at a time. En masse, Americans ARE wankers. [lol]

--------------------
They just don't make crazed, beserk robots like they used to. --Sheen Estevez, Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius

If I manage to post something swipe-worthy that you would like to make your sig, you may do so with my blessing.

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Mama Duck
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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It all relates back to the old saying, "Individuals are smart. People are stupid." This is true cross-culturally I'd say.

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There is no interpersonal problem so big that it can't be solved with a suitably large amount of high explosives. ~ Bufungla

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Dog Friendly
Carol of the Bills


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I believe it was Linus van Pelt who said: "I love mankind. It's people I can't stand".

Dog Friendly

--------------------
"Nobody ever got stoned and beat up his old lady" -- Spence, snapdragonfly's friend

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Froggy Mom
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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We have a LOT of immigrant Mexican nationals around here. Whether they are legal or not, I have no idea. I suspect there are a lot of illegal immigrants, but it's not like they walk around with "illegal" stamped on their foreheads. This has a point, so hang with me here. I am an extremely white woman with blondish/reddish hair and in NO way look mexican. My dad is mexican. What cracks me up is when a group of people I'm around start ragging on "those nfbsk mexicans". I just pipe up and say simply, "My dad is mexican, so I guess that makes me one of those nfbsk mexicans." Then I sit back and wait for the silent blushes. It's really hilarious. I'm really not offended by their remarks because even my dad and grandmother (who immigrated here legally when she was a small child) are irritated with the illegal community and their "entitlement issues". Those are grandma's words. I guess my point is that just because something someone says is rude, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to say it.
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ChelleGame
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
Gagh.

I am tired of people - from whatever position, pinion and background - making comments like (presented as examples only):

"...you're not allowed to say anything bad about Muslims now."

"But of course, you can't criticise Israel, because of the Holocaust."

"You can't say anything against gays now."

"They come here and you're not allowed to say anything about it."

GAGH


YES YOU CAN NFBSKING SAY THAT! YOU JUST NFBSKING DID! NO NFBSKING NFBSK IS STOPPING YOU! GROW THE NFBSK UP!

People disagreeing with what you're saying, or wishing you didn't say it, does not equate to 'not being allowed' to say it.

NFBSKing martyr-complex-having-mother-NFBSKers.


and...breathe

Many people confuse "can't say that" with "can't say that without a possibility people will disagree."

Often people think that, if you want to debate their point, you're somehow saying they don't have the right to have the opinion at all.

There's a difference between free speech and speech free from criticism.

--------------------
Michelle

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Froggy Mom:
a group of people I'm around start ragging on "those nfbsk mexicans".

If I hear ANYTHING else about how evil the mexicans are, I'll barf. This LTE came in the other day:

As to your condemnation of laws attempting to stem the flood of illegal aliens into
Colorado (“Extraordinary folly,” Nov. 26), I ask that you consider that lawlessness must be met with laws.
If it wasn’t for Boulder’s illegal alien sanctuary policy, Boulder wouldn’t support more than 1,000 illegal aliens working and living
against federal and state laws.
University of Colorado quarterback John Hessler wouldn’t be living in a wheelchair after being hit by two illegals who fled the scene.
Eight Boulder women raped by eight illegals wouldn’t have to suffer a lifetime of that trauma.
Dale Englerth, who was killed by illegal alien Francisco Montero, would still be alive for his wife and children.
We wouldn’t have the ‘white flight’ out of Maplewood Elementary because of the overwhelming population of illegal alien children, which, by the way, costs Colorado taxpayers $564.1 million annually, according to state records.
We wouldn’t be paying out $40 million for convicted felon illegal aliens in our prisons.
We wouldn’t be paying out, according to the Denver Post, $38.4 million for anchor babies and medical care for all those illegals. Longmont reported $24 million paid out alone to illegals last year for medical care for illegals.
So, when does the ‘folly’ end? When does the Camera step up and pay those bills? How about
your staff that wrote that editorial?
When will you take responsibility for illegals’ cost to us?
By the way, have you heard of the rule of law as it maintains a cohesive society? Illegals may be deported any second of any day, for they are all federal criminals.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Froggy Mom:
We have a LOT of immigrant Mexican nationals around here. Whether they are legal or not, I have no idea. I suspect there are a lot of illegal immigrants, but it's not like they walk around with "illegal" stamped on their foreheads. This has a point, so hang with me here. I am an extremely white woman with blondish/reddish hair and in NO way look mexican. My dad is mexican. What cracks me up is when a group of people I'm around start ragging on "those nfbsk mexicans". I just pipe up and say simply, "My dad is mexican, so I guess that makes me one of those nfbsk mexicans." Then I sit back and wait for the silent blushes. It's really hilarious. I'm really not offended by their remarks because even my dad and grandmother (who immigrated here legally when she was a small child) are irritated with the illegal community and their "entitlement issues". Those are grandma's words. I guess my point is that just because something someone says is rude, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to say it.

They are allowed to say it. Others are allowed to disagree. It's almost magical how well that works out.

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Officially Heartless

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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A personal peeve is hearing "If you don't vote, you can't complain."

Actually, I am not obligated to vote, I can freely choose not to exercise a right and suffer no penalty, and I am constitutionally guaranteed the right to complain about anything I want.

So there. [Razz]

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
A personal peeve is hearing "If you don't vote, you can't complain."

Actually, I am not obligated to vote, I can freely choose not to exercise a right and suffer no penalty, and I am constitutionally guaranteed the right to complain about anything I want.

So there. [Razz]

How about "If you don't vote, don't complain."

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"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

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BluesScale
Deck the Malls


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Hmmm. Seems to me that true equality is when you speak well or badly about an individual or group based on the actions of the individual or group rather than some from an existing bias. That doesn't mean that you can or can not criticise a group, just that you must be able to justify it.

However, given that most groups are so varied, it is practically impossible to make a statement that is true about all people in a group. All muslims evil? All 1 Billion of them? It would be hard to find a group of 10 people who are evil let alone a billion. Besides, the claim is manifestly untrue because we all know exceptions. You know, it could even be that the exceptions are the rule. It would fit in with my experience. That is to say that people have all the good and bad points that come with membership of the human race. Generalisation beyond that is generally worthless IMHO

Blues.

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LeaflessMapleTree
The twelve shopping days 'til Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Damian:
quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
A personal peeve is hearing "If you don't vote, you can't complain."

Actually, I am not obligated to vote, I can freely choose not to exercise a right and suffer no penalty, and I am constitutionally guaranteed the right to complain about anything I want.

So there. [Razz]

How about "If you don't vote, don't complain."
I think it's important to go to the polls. If you really don't like any of the candidates, write "This election sucks!" on the ballot and leave all the names unmarked as a protest.

But yes, you are allowed to complain all you want.

--------------------
"For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any."
-Silas Sparkhammer

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Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
But yes, you are allowed to complain all you want.

I don't think anyone is suggesting a law prohibiting non-voters from complaining. It is more a reaction to the hypocricy of the complainers.

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"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

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Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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is it not more hypocritical to vote for someone you do not support in any way, than to acknowledge that none of the candidates presented represent your views enough to warrant your support and refrain from voting accordingly?

also, I wouldn't conflate non-voting with non-participation or apathy.

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

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The Fourth Man
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
is it not more hypocritical to vote for someone you do not support in any way, than to acknowledge that none of the candidates presented represent your views enough to warrant your support and refrain from voting accordingly?

I don't think so. There are times when you have to vote for the lesser evil ("have to" being meant in the moral sense, I'll refrain from opening a whole 'nother can of worms by discussing countries like Belgium where voting is obligatory by law).

Chirac does not represent my views in any kind of way and stands for just about everything I dislike. Yet, 4 1/2 years ago, I still voted for him in the second round of the French presidential elections, and I didn't felt I was being hypocritical in the slightest. Between a crook and a fascist, the choice, however disgusting, was quickly made. If I hadn't voted, it would have been equivalent to giving half of my vote to Le Pen, and this is something I just couldn't have lived with.

The Fourth "abstention, pičge ŕ cons" Man

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If you keep trying, you'll eventually succeed. Therefore, the more you fail, the higher your chances of success.
-- Jacques Rouxel, 1931-2004 RIP :(

Posts: 406 | From: Paris, France | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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The choice between a crook and a fascist isn't the case that often, tho (more often a crook and another crook). if given a choice between several candidates with near-indistinguishable policies, none of which I feel comfortable giving my support to, what "moral" basis is there in making a vote?

I don't take the hardline abstentionist route - there are times, such as when there's a very clear threat from one particular candidate, when keeping them out is a necessity - but I've never understood the stigma many associate with vote refusal, nor the assumption that non-voting automatically equates to non-interested.

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Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...

Posts: 2731 | From: York/Reading, England | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by The Fourth Man:
There are times when you have to vote for the lesser evil ("have to" being meant in the moral sense, I'll refrain from opening a whole 'nother can of worms by discussing countries like Belgium where voting is obligatory by law).

Chirac does not represent my views in any kind of way and stands for just about everything I dislike. Yet, 4 1/2 years ago, I still voted for him in the second round of the French presidential elections, and I didn't felt I was being hypocritical in the slightest. Between a crook and a fascist, the choice, however disgusting, was quickly made. If I hadn't voted, it would have been equivalent to giving half of my vote to Le Pen, and this is something I just couldn't have lived with.

The Fourth "abstention, pičge ŕ cons" Man

You may not have voted for a fascist...but you still voted for a crook (using your descriptions). I disagree that this equates to a good solution.

"The lesser of two evils" thing bugs the hell out of me. The lesser of two evils is still evil. You don't have to support an evil.

It also bugged the hell out of me to repeatedly hear in 2004, in regards to the choice between John Kerry and George W. Bush, "better to choose the devil you know than the devil you don't". BAH! That's just ridiculous rationalization!

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Drifting back to the complainers, my work means that my antennae are alive to the annual round of:

"You can't even say Happy Christmas any more in case you offend someone!"

"Employers say that they are afraid to put up Christmas decorations in the office for fear of religious discrimination claims!"

"You're not even allowed to photocopy your arse at the office Christmas party any more becaue of health and safety!"

Blah blah blah.

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I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.

Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet:
"You're not even allowed to photocopy your arse at the office Christmas party any more becaue of health and safety!"

[lol]

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
unklesamta
Deck the Malls


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Dammit no ass copies this year???

What is the world coming to?

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

Posts: 457 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Jonny T:
The choice between a crook and a fascist isn't the case that often, tho (more often a crook and another crook). if given a choice between several candidates with near-indistinguishable policies, none of which I feel comfortable giving my support to, what "moral" basis is there in making a vote?

I don't take the hardline abstentionist route - there are times, such as when there's a very clear threat from one particular candidate, when keeping them out is a necessity - but I've never understood the stigma many associate with vote refusal, nor the assumption that non-voting automatically equates to non-interested.

I can accept abstaining from voting for people, but do you also abstain from voting for legislation? Almost every ballot has some kind of measure or bond to be decided, and those actually can have a real impact on your life.

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Officially Heartless

Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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