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Author Topic: Just because you're old doesn't mean you can get away with cutting in line!
Tinakins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
How would you respond if Signora or I came on and gave two anecdotes about somethings two teenagers did which annoyed us, but blamed it totally on their being teenagers and not individuals who did annoying things?

It's okay, my peers annoy me too.
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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Ms. Koi:
I gotta tell you, this thread is reminding me of exactly why I greatly dislike people in general.

Especially when I have to go out this time of year. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate going to a Mart store for any reason this time of year. People are so damned rude, to each other, and to me, and to the poor customer service associates who have to put up with their nonsense.

Old, young, middle-aged, lying about their age, I don't care their age. Rude is rude, and when someone tries to disguise it as "expressing themselves" it just makes me want to get a baseball bat.

Yep, I have come to the conclusion that some people just deserve a good boot to the head. And should be given said boot to the head on a fairly regular basis.

Ms. 'well on my way to curmudgeonhood' K

I see this sentiment expressed on the board often and I am always surprised by it. Without wishing to sound Pollyannaish I have always found that the idjits are well outnumbered by perfectly nice people just trying to get through their day. I think we notice the troublemakers and remember them, perhaps to a point where we are ignoring the hundred other people we interacted with who were downright affable? Or at least neutral.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I wouldn't say the asshats outnumber the nice Christie, but I would say that the apathetic outnumber them both by a good margin.

I agree that most people aren't bad, but the rest of them aren't "good" per se but... well just there. They go through the motions, they do what they are told and what is expected of them. We're just lucky to live in a world that makes it easier to be good then to be bad.

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"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Tinakins:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
How would you respond if Signora or I came on and gave two anecdotes about somethings two teenagers did which annoyed us, but blamed it totally on their being teenagers and not individuals who did annoying things?

It's okay, my peers annoy me too.
No, it wouldn't be okay. Individuals are responsible for their own actions, not any group or subculture or demomographic to which they belong.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Victoria J:

Regarding rude and terrible old people - I still remember the horror of getting the bus outside my school on Wednesdays. The bus stop was outside a bingo hall, and on Wednesdays the bingo was slightly later and the school let out half an hour earlier - and the school girls reached the bus stop before the old people (And it was entirely old people at the afternoon bingo, though the evening events may have been more diverse). And they were AWFUL, they would come to the bus stop later, and just push in front (I mean, actually shove), and they would lecture us on our manners. I once saw an old woman hit a girl with her walking stick [Eek!] because the girl refused to let her on the bus first, and said (quite correctly) that she had been there first...

This sort of confuses me. Were there enough seats on the bus for everyone? So what was the big deal for either the kids or the old ladies about who got on the bus first? Surely the kids didn't want to get on first to grab the seats and let the women stand. Was it all about being first? It isn't like the bus was going to leave any faster and thus somehow save time if the young people got on first instead of waiting for the older people.

It is about manners for the older people. They (we) grew up deferring to our elders out of politeness because it's .....good manners. After a lifetime of deferring, older people figure they are finally going to get deferred to only to learn no one taught those same manners to younger people. Sounds like "I was here first" is the reigning "good manners" but it's no wonder older people feel that's an indication of lacking manners.

I'm not saying that older people can jump lines in stores because the situation is different -- once you get through a store line you can leave. It doesn't matter when you get on the bus, the bus isn't going to leave until everyone is on. I never understood what the big deal was about getting on a city bus first.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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NancyFancyPants
Deck the Malls


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Sara, I also never understood that mad rush to get on the bus. I'm thankful that I no longer have to ride buses. (Thank God this building has a parking lot!) I still remember the huge crush at the corner downtown where I would get on. People would practically knock each other over to be first.

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And on the 7th day, God said, "Let there be lips!"

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Victoria J
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Victoria J:

Regarding rude and terrible old people - I still remember the horror of getting the bus outside my school on Wednesdays. The bus stop was outside a bingo hall, and on Wednesdays the bingo was slightly later and the school let out half an hour earlier - and the school girls reached the bus stop before the old people (And it was entirely old people at the afternoon bingo, though the evening events may have been more diverse). And they were AWFUL, they would come to the bus stop later, and just push in front (I mean, actually shove), and they would lecture us on our manners. I once saw an old woman hit a girl with her walking stick [Eek!] because the girl refused to let her on the bus first, and said (quite correctly) that she had been there first...

This sort of confuses me. Were there enough seats on the bus for everyone? So what was the big deal for either the kids or the old ladies about who got on the bus first? Surely the kids didn't want to get on first to grab the seats and let the women stand. Was it all about being first? It isn't like the bus was going to leave any faster and thus somehow save time if the young people got on first instead of waiting for the older people.

It is about manners for the older people. They (we) grew up deferring to our elders out of politeness because it's .....good manners. After a lifetime of deferring, older people figure they are finally going to get deferred to only to learn no one taught those same manners to younger people. Sounds like "I was here first" is the reigning "good manners" but it's no wonder older people feel that's an indication of lacking manners.

I'm not saying that older people can jump lines in stores because the situation is different -- once you get through a store line you can leave. It doesn't matter when you get on the bus, the bus isn't going to leave until everyone is on. I never understood what the big deal was about getting on a city bus first.

The children mostly went upstairs, and the old women stayed down stairs so we weren't in their way at all once on the bus.

I am mystified by why you think there is no problem with people just shoving (lierally) to the front of a queue. We got to the bus stop first, and stood ready for the bus to come, they would then come along and physically push us out of the way to get to the roadside so they could get on the bus first (while complaining about our lack of manners)...

Deference to old people is one thing, a large group of older people pushing a large group of young people seems quite indefensible. And given their quite appalling behaviour (on at least a couple of occassions probably being serious enough to be considered assault had anyone complained formally) exactly why should they receive deferential treatment ?

I don't see that pushing in line is ever a big deal, the reason it upsets us is not that we might wait a couple of minutes more it is because it is rude and insulting. Whenever people push in it is a sign that they think that they are too important to obey the rules like everyone else and wait, and that the rest of us are less important.

Finally on a purely practical basis it did make a difference because if we got on first the bus would load faster and we would be upstairs and out of the way while they finished getting on. If they got on first they would completely fill up the lower half of the bus, and would not move upstairs or make any attempt to move aside to let us get to the stairs. It meant it took us a long time to move through and go up the stairs, and on occassion the bus driver would decide the bus was full and leave even though there were many seats upstairs.

In short they behaved extremely rudely. They didn't benefit at all, but we did loose out. And this was all accompanied by lectures about our bad manners.

It has been 13 years since I left school but thinking about their behaviour is actually making me angry.

Victoria J.

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Post accompanied by maniacal laughter.

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Little Pink Pill
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Victoria J:
And given their quite appalling behaviour (on at least a couple of occassions probably being serious enough to be considered assault had anyone complained formally) exactly why should they receive deferential treatment ?

I have to admit that I've been frustrated at times with elderly Hungarian women at bus stops. I've been elbowed and shoved to the side by more than one, and it really does seem to happen with far more regularity than with younger individuals. I've also seen older women run for a tram, jump over chains, and duck under elbows, only to shuffle painfully up to someone sitting in a seat and stare at them plaintively.

Of course not all are like that. But there does seem to be a generational sense of entitlement that makes some behave quite rudely in their effort to enforce manners on the young.

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The technical term is narcissism. You can't believe everything is your fault unless you also believe you're all powerful.--House

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by Victoria J:
I am mystified by why you think there is no problem with people just shoving (lierally) to the front of a queue. We got to the bus stop first, and stood ready for the bus to come, they would then come along and physically push us out of the way to get to the roadside so they could get on the bus first (while complaining about our lack of manners)...

I don't think Sara was excusing them or saying it was okay. I think she was saying that to them, your group was behaving rudely by not letting them in first. And while rudeness is no excuse for rudeness, the elderly in your example may have felt that they had to "correct" your group since you weren't showing them the proper deferences.

IOW, not an excuse but a reason for their behaviour.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by UrbanRenewal:
quote:


Barbara "I suppose 'crone' is somewhat frowned on too, right?" Mikkelson

Unless they're Pagan, in which case you're complimenting them. [Big Grin]

Signora, you'd have liked my friend Stacy's gandmother. She died last year, but she was known to go up to those boys with their pants beltend under their butt cheeks and ... pull them down. They'd turn around all mad and embarrassed and there'd be this 4 1/2 foot tall 87 year old lady there. What were they going to do?!

Although, I think when I'm that old, if that look is still around I'm going to pull them up. I'm already seeing more than I want to.

Well, I like her!! Heck, I sorta wish I was old(er) than I am now so I could get away with that!

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Iguana:
To some posters (I forget all the names, apologies), while there are some people who are not doing the greatest job of monitoring their language, I don't think that anyone here is intending to say, "All old people suck. All old people are mean. All old people are rude." (At least, I hope they aren't.) For example, I know some old people who should have their driver's license taken away... however, I know MANY 70 year olds who drive WAY better than my 20-something BIL.

Someone posted on this thread (I'm horrible at remembering names, so apologies that I'm not giving you your props the best way possible) very wisely pointed out that people are either rude or not, and often do not change because of their age. A nice child will most likely turn into a nice adult and nice old person. An asshat child will likely age along similar lines. So if someone posts, "This old bat..." I honestly don't think they're implying, "And therefore, I believe that ALL old people are like this."

Yes.


If we can merge the old people with the driving thing, I nearly got sideswiped by a couple older drivers (grey hair, didn't see them close enough to guess an age) who were turning left in front of me so that they would cross in front of me. (I feel I'm not explaining well... these folks were coming from the street perpendicular to the one I was on.) Anyhow, in both situations, I had to slam on my brakes to avoid a collision. Both times, I laid on my horn to warn them, and both times, they didn't so much as bat an eyelash. They seemed entirely oblivious that I was there.

For one of those occasions, my mom was there and she told me that apparently there was some phantom study where it was determined that older drivers get kinda dangerous when it comes to making left-hand turns, and they don't really notice the lanes of traffic that they are turning against. NO idea if this is true, and... given how this has only happened to me a couple of times and there are WAY more than a couple of older drivers on the road, I'm just not sure how well supported this is. Has anyone else heard of this study?
[/QUOTE]

No, but, after I visit my chiro, he tells me that I'll be able to drive better because it will be easier for me to TURN AROUND AND LOOK when I'm turning, and regardless of your opinion of chiropracty, it IS true that when you are more flexible, it IS easier to turn your head and look.

It is logical, then, that if an older person is stiff, (as well as the vision issue) that they won't turn around easily or effectively or perhaps not at all.

I have almost been wiped out MANY times by older drivers who have tried to make a lane turn while I happened to be occupying the lane, EXCUSE ME!!! ~ and when I honk, they either blithely go on their merry way, or they look startled and surprised and all deer in a headlight-y.

Ugh. My husband feels real sorry for them and gets hostile at the very idea of taking away their license.

My feeling is that I don't care if you are 17 or 117. If you can see and drive well, fine. If not - no license for you - cause I am on the road and would kinda like to not be killed because you didn't see me, thanks so much.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by UrbanRenewal:
Signora, you'd have liked my friend Stacy's gandmother. She died last year, but she was known to go up to those boys with their pants beltend under their butt cheeks and ... pull them down. They'd turn around all mad and embarrassed and there'd be this 4 1/2 foot tall 87 year old lady there. What were they going to do?!

Although, I think when I'm that old, if that look is still around I'm going to pull them up. I'm already seeing more than I want to.

Why is this okay? In fact, why is this admired and the desire expressed to emulate this behaviour? It is never okay to put hands for this reason on anyone without their permission. Would I be admired if I walked up to elderly gentlemen wearing their pants around their armpits and yanked their pants down to their waist?

In fact, this could be a kind of social bullying. Your friend's grandmother is using the fact she is a tiny old woman to get away with behaviour that a regular sized or younger person could not get away with.

Whether or not you agree with someone's fashion choices, they are their choices to make and it is not your place to correct them unless they are a minor and you are their parents or legal gardians.

ETA: clarification to last paragraph and:

This may be a prime example of the thoughts that prompted this thread in the first place. Either the friend's grandmother thinks she is entitled to correct whatever behaviour she doesn't like or she thinks that kids/teens/younger people aren't worthy of the same measure of default respect that other people are.

And I think a few snopesters are guilty of that as well.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
It is about manners for the older people. They (we) grew up deferring to our elders out of politeness because it's .....good manners.

Errr... why?

Someone deserves deference simply for existing longer then someone else?

--------------------
"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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gopher
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
It is about manners for the older people. They (we) grew up deferring to our elders out of politeness because it's .....good manners.

Errr... why?

Someone deserves deference simply for existing longer then someone else?

I've wondered about this as well. When I was growing up I was told that age deserves respect and any questioning of this was in itself disrespectful.
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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by gopher:
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
It is about manners for the older people. They (we) grew up deferring to our elders out of politeness because it's .....good manners.

Errr... why?

Someone deserves deference simply for existing longer then someone else?

I've wondered about this as well. When I was growing up I was told that age deserves respect and any questioning of this was in itself disrespectful.
Deferring in the sense that you don't expect an elderly woman who relies on a cane to wait in line to get on a bus, you especially don't shove past the elderly woman to get the last seat on the bus, a scenario I see all too often.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
Deferring in the sense that you don't expect an elderly woman who relies on a cane to wait in line to get on a bus, you especially don't shove past the elderly woman to get the last seat on the bus, a scenario I see all too often.

But isn't that (or shouldn't that be) deference due to physical condition irrespective of age? I would hope a 20 YO who depends on a cane would get deference over a spry 70 YO who walks with no problems. And if an elderly person has the ability to shove aside other people, they probably don't need the physical conditional deference in the first place.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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F minor
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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You got there before me, GenYus. That is shockingly unpleasant behaviour.

ETA: about the trouser-pulling-down thing.

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
Deferring in the sense that you don't expect an elderly woman who relies on a cane to wait in line to get on a bus, you especially don't shove past the elderly woman to get the last seat on the bus, a scenario I see all too often.

But isn't that (or shouldn't that be) deference due to physical condition irrespective of age? I would hope a 20 YO who depends on a cane would get deference over a spry 70 YO who walks with no problems. And if an elderly person has the ability to shove aside other people, they probably don't need the physical conditional deference in the first place.
The woman Victoria mentioned walked with a cane. Are you suggesting that because she used it inappropriately that she doesn't need it after all?

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
The woman Victoria mentioned walked with a cane. Are you suggesting that because she used it inappropriately that she doesn't need it after all?

Not at all. But some of the elderly in her story were strong enough and stable enough on their feet to physically shove other people out of the way. Those people are the ones that I would say do not need preferential loading.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
Deferring in the sense that you don't expect an elderly woman who relies on a cane to wait in line to get on a bus, you especially don't shove past the elderly woman to get the last seat on the bus, a scenario I see all too often.

But Sara (and others) didn't say an elderly woman with a cane, she said elderly, by itself with no modifiers.

Any person with a cane, crutches, wheelchair, etc, should always be "deferred" to in matters of mobility, regardless of their age. That's just common sense and basic decency.

But age has nothing to do with it.

This idea that its "polite" to defer to the elderly simply because of their advanced age is common enough for my original question to still be valid.

Again I ask why must I "defer" to someone simply because they have existed longer then I have?

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"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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tribrats
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
It is about manners for the older people. They (we) grew up deferring to our elders out of politeness because it's .....good manners. After a lifetime of deferring, older people figure they are finally going to get deferred to only to learn no one taught those same manners to younger people. Sounds like "I was here first" is the reigning "good manners" but it's no wonder older people feel that's an indication of lacking manners.
[semi-sarcasm] But they have no-one to blame for the lack of manners towards them but their own generation. If they hadn't taught their own children to stand up for what they want and be heard and be treated like an equal then their children wouldn't have passed it on to the teenage generation of now. That generation started it by demanding woman's rights and allowing women in the workforce instead of into a house being barefoot and pregnant. If they had just left everything alone, we would have kids with manners. The only ones being disrespected would be the blacks and other minorities. [/semi-sarcasm]

Seriously though, respect should be earned. Being above a certain age does not give someone a free pass to push to the front of the line or be rude to someone younger. Granted that teens should be polite and courteous, but so should everyone in every age range. The elders at the bus stop were rude and self centered. If I had been with my Gram and she acted in that manner I would have been appalled (I was 19 when she died).

I really don't know if there is a big deal other than the rudeness of feeling they are entitled to go first just because they are old. I don't have much experience with city buses having never been on one. When I used to go to Boston and ride the T though, it was just a case of getting on when you could without losing the people you were with. It seemed that everyone was pushing. Unless you went at 1:00 in the morning.

Changing pace here for a moment, I was called rude when at 23 I was 8 1/2 months pregnant and took the seat offered to me by an older gentleman while waiting for my Hubby to finish going through checkout. It was one of the few times I got out before Nate was born and just before Christmas. So I made the day of it and overdid it. After sitting a few minutes some mid-aged woman came over and told me she "saw what happened" while she was in line and I should let the gentleman sit back down and that I was rude for making him get up. He corrected her and told her that he had offered me the seat but still, I was shocked and couldn't speak so I said nothing and thanked him after.

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tribrats
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:

Again I ask why must I "defer" to someone simply because they have existed longer then I have?

This is actually something Hubby and I have discussed. He is 12 years older than me but only 8 years younger than my Mom. Should he treat people that are almost in his generation as his "elders" just because they are my elders? Should I only treat his "elders" as such? He's going to be at the beginning of his 50's at the same time my Mom is at the tail end, should I treat him as my "elder"? How much older is older?

Simple solution is that everyone starts off on equal footing. If you are rude and inconsiderate, you don't deserve respect. If you are a nice person, you do. Respect is earned not just handed out like candy.

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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To be an 'elder' one need only be older, not an entire generation older.

To answer your question, I would think that your husabd should treat your mother with respect regardlss of his age.

Beach...but hey I'm strange that way...Life!

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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
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tribrats
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Oh he does. And so do his siblings who are older than my Mom. When she goes over they treat her like she is their SIL's Mother and not like she is someone younger than them. I respect and appreciate that. As I said, I feel respect is an earned thing and not an age thing. FWIW, even though I could be his siblings' daughter, they treat me as an equal too.

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Victoria J
Jingle Bell Hock


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Regarding the low slung pants - my journey into work was greatly improved by the comedy provided by a young man (maybe 13 ?) and elderly lady arguing about this. It was hugely entertaining because despite the low slung pants, and indeed having pushed to the front of the bus queue, he was suprisingly articulate and remainded polite. She started by going "Urrgh" due to the view she was getting but went on to tell him he should pull his trousers up, that this wasn't the right was to dress, and that God wouldn't like it. He argued that it was up to him how he dressed, that he felt comfortable and thought he looked good, and that he really didn't think God cared. I had trouble not laughing when he started telling her that while she might talk to God he doubted she got an actual reply, he said he knew he didn't...

Young Man 1 Old Lady 0
(But then I think he had a stronger case to start with, as it wasn't any of her business. She missed her strongest point though as she never pointed out that while he chooses to dress like that she would have choosen not to see half his arse...)

quote:
Originally posted by GenYus:
quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
The woman Victoria mentioned walked with a cane. Are you suggesting that because she used it inappropriately that she doesn't need it after all?

Not at all. But some of the elderly in her story were strong enough and stable enough on their feet to physically shove other people out of the way. Those people are the ones that I would say do not need preferential loading.
Part of my rant is that I don't believe in "preferential loading" (except where it is done formally such as by airlines). The polite behaviour I was taught was that everyone gets on a bus in the order they arrived, but that anyone who is able to stand should give up their seat to someone who needs it. Maybe that is an English one-of-natures-queuers thing. Elderly people don't get to go in front, but should be guaranteed a seat, and if they were politer in their youth than their old age I would expect this to be the rule they were brought up with.

There are just some people who believe that having a seat so they don't have to stand should mean that they can push in and take whatever they want.

I once had an arguement with a loathesome elderly woman on a bus in Brighton who decided to lecture me very loudly (I think to try and embarrass me [lol] I am unembarrassable and loud myself) because I was sitting in a seat designated "priority" for the elderly and disabled, even though the bus was half empty and there were many accessible seats available. I very loudly explained the difference between "priority" and "reserved", and explained that I had been brought up to give my seat to anyone in need regardless of little stickers.

Sadly I did not have the time to explain that the stickers did not mean obnoxious old women could bully people into giving them window seats, or to point out that while it is obvious that I am not elderly she had no way of knowing whether I was disabled. My mother has a disability that is not "visible" and if she stands on a bus she may have limited use of her arm the next day. I have heard people be rude to her because they think they need the seat more and it makes me mad [Mad]

This thread is really making me dredge up nasty old lady stories. I have a rude teenage story as well but that would be off topic...

Victoria J

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Victoria J:

I am mystified by why you think there is no problem with people just shoving (lierally) to the front of a queue. We got to the bus stop first, and stood ready for the bus to come, they would then come along and physically push us out of the way to get to the roadside so they could get on the bus first (while complaining about our lack of manners)...


And I, of course, am mystified by why you think I think there is no problem with people shoving to the front of the line.

quote:
Deference to old people is one thing, a large group of older people pushing a large group of young people seems quite indefensible. And given their quite appalling behaviour (on at least a couple of occassions probably being serious enough to be considered assault had anyone complained formally) exactly why should they receive deferential treatment ?

I wasn't there, of course, and can go by only what you post, but it sounds like everyone acted appallingly. Nancy FP and I would probably have stood back and laughed at all of you.

quote:
I don't see that pushing in line is ever a big deal, the reason it upsets us is not that we might wait a couple of minutes more it is because it is rude and insulting. Whenever people push in it is a sign that they think that they are too important to obey the rules like everyone else and wait, and that the rest of us are less important.

I would view someone's rudeness as a reflection on her, not on me. I wouldn't be a bit concerned about what anyone as rude as you describe thought about me -- and that goes for the kids as well as the old ladies.

quote:
Finally on a purely practical basis it did make a difference because if we got on first the bus would load faster and we would be upstairs and out of the way while they finished getting on. If they got on first they would completely fill up the lower half of the bus, and would not move upstairs or make any attempt to move aside to let us get to the stairs. It meant it took us a long time to move through and go up the stairs, and on occassion the bus driver would decide the bus was full and leave even though there were many seats upstairs.

Now, there are some very good reasons for the old ladies to allow the young people to get on first. Not ever having been on a double decker bus, I hadn't thought about that. On the other hand, I do know about full buses; I could never ride a bus when I was in high school because they were all too full (except sometimes the "late" bus) by the time they got to my stop. (No school bus, just local bus service.)

quote:
In short they behaved extremely rudely. They didn't benefit at all, but we did loose out. And this was all accompanied by lectures about our bad manners.

It has been 13 years since I left school but thinking about their behaviour is actually making me angry.

Victoria J.

Ok, you've won me over. They sound like a people I'd like to avoid. But I suspect they acted like that because they played bingo, not because of their age. You know how bingo players are. [Roll Eyes]

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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NZUL
Deck the Malls


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I think I have rather old fashioned manners for someone in the low 30s.

Old gets respect just for being old. Yes, it's true. If you think it sucks, don't get old.

It is polite to offer for the old ladies to get on the bus first. Respect for elders and all that. It is also polite for the old ladies to say "No no, you were here first, you go ahead." This way it all happens as it "should", while everyone maintains a high level of respect and civility.

Both parties fall down on this probably in every occurance.

Certainly if there aren't enough seats or if the bus will take off with empty seats because of the old biddies, then it seems okay to politely say "Excuse me, we were here first, please stand aside." I somewhat suspect the young girls were not so polite in their expectation of getting on first (regardless of whether they "should" have had the right to get on first).

This applies as well to the queueing dilemma. If someone cuts or uses an express lane with a trolley full of stuff, it is not polite to pretend to be teaching your children a counting lesson to shame them. If you must say something at all, how about "Excuse me, I think you must have missed the sign, this is an express lane"? It doesn't shame them as you start by giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I hate this culture of ours now where rudeness seems like a valid excuse to be rude. No. Politeness should reign. Whether you're the only one doing it or not.

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by NZUL:
If you must say something at all, how about "Excuse me, I think you must have missed the sign, this is an express lane"? It doesn't shame them as you start by giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I really did that once. It was so embarrassing. There was no one in line, it was a store that had the express lane on the opposite side of the store than I had come to expect, the checker didn't say a word when I started unloading and then all of a sudden five people with 10 items or less were in line behind me. By the time I realized my mistake, it would have taken longer to move than to check out. [Embarrassed]

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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by NZUL:
It is polite to offer for the old ladies to get on the bus first. Respect for elders and all that. It is also polite for the old ladies to say "No no, you were here first, you go ahead." This way it all happens as it "should", while everyone maintains a high level of respect and civility.

//Total Hijack//

Has anyone ever seen two people get into a "polite off" were they are both trying so hard to be polite to the other the one that they wind up frustrating each other? It's funny.

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"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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Tinakins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
No, it wouldn't be okay. Individuals are responsible for their own actions, not any group or subculture or demomographic to which they belong.

I whole-heartedly agree.


Also, I've lived in a big city all my life and use public transportation often. I always see people giving their seats up for older people. I'm sure there have been ruder young people out there that have been disrespectful to handicapped, older persons, but I think overall people are mostly considerate. Maybe that's just where I live though.

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ChickyBee
Deck the Malls


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quote:
//Total Hijack//

Has anyone ever seen two people get into a "polite off" were they are both trying so hard to be polite to the other the one that they wind up frustrating each other? It's funny.

Every single day I take my son out in the pram.

Random Person: Oh, it's okay honey, you go ahead of me.
Me: No, it's okay
RP: Oh but you've got the pram, so -
Me: Oh yeah, my son loves being out and about. It's okay, I'm in no rush. Thank you very much for offering.
RP: Seriously, cut ahead of me.
Me: I don't mind waiting and you were here first.

And so on and so on. Usually whoever is behind me speaks up with a variation of "Can I just quickly cut ahead then, since you two are busy being painfully polite?"

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Tinakins:
Unfortunately some of you have gotten the wrong impression of me. No, I don't really think all old people are gross. I've had good and bad experiences with old people just as I've had with all different types of people. However because this thread was concerning elders specifically, I chose to give my own stories out just as everyone else had.

And no, I didn't say that I was touching the bagels. I said that I was being picked on and this lady was lecturing me about touching them. And yes, I do have a problem with strangers touching my laundry.

I think the problem is, you thought this was a thread for ripping into old folks and instead it was about rude behavior with the specific instruction that it's not ok to be rude just because you're old. Read your posts again and you'll see where our wrong impression came from.

*Gasp!* Where's the penguin?

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Sharpened Steel
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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The line-jumping issue was something I saw a lot when I worked at Six Flags. For some reason, a lot of people thought it was perfectly ok to jump the line if they saw their friends at the beginning of a very long line. Any time I called people on it, as it was a part of my job, they always, without fail, got pissed at me. Of course, people got pissed at me whenever I called them on anything that was against the rules, even if it was posted everywhere...

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Get used to his bad habits and decide whether you can put up with them...the rest of your life. 'Cause if you don't, then one day, you find yourself in the shed, sharpening the axe and idly wondering how thick the human skull really is.
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NancyFancyPants
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara Claus at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Victoria J:
[QUOTE][qb]Deference to old people is one thing, a large group of older people pushing a large group of young people seems quite indefensible. And given their quite appalling behaviour (on at least a couple of occassions probably being serious enough to be considered assault had anyone complained formally) exactly why should they receive deferential treatment ?


I wasn't there, of course, and can go by only what you post, but it sounds like everyone acted appallingly. Nancy FP and I would probably have stood back and laughed at all of you.

You're right, Sara. Because even though I think the old ladies shoving was kinda rude, I really don't understand why anyone cares who gets on the bus first. That just sounds like grade school to me.

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Tinakins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by tagurit:
I think the problem is, you thought this was a thread for ripping into old folks and instead it was about rude behavior with the specific instruction that it's not ok to be rude just because you're old. Read your posts again and you'll see where our wrong impression came from.

*Gasp!* Where's the penguin?

I think I should have clarified better; my point in these specific instances was that I believe these people were acting in these ways because they felt entitled to it, and felt they were superior to me BECAUSE of their age (e.g., old lady nagging me because I'm ridiculously young and naive looking) and they were taking advantage of the situation somewhat because of their age and they feel they could.

I've dealt with other old folks who were just plain rude, but in these instances I didn't feel that it was due to their age and therefore I didn't care to mention them.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. [Smile]

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