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Author Topic: A dual rant: whiny students and a professor who needs to grow a spine
Muskrat Monroe
A View to a Krill


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I just got back from my Journalism Law & Ethics class, and was handed back the test I took on Tuesday. I got a 90%, and the questions I missed were the ones I wasn't sure about as I was taking the test, so no surprises. I was happy with this grade.

By the end of the class period, my grade increased to a 102%, but I'm not happy about it. I'm so incredibly, nsfbsking pissed.

The prof takes the class period after a test to go over it. I generally like this policy. After all, it uncovered that he had filled in the Scantron answer key wrong for one question, marking it "true" when it should have been "false." I'll gladly take the two added points to my grade for that mistake.

But then the dickering started, from whiny students looking for the flimsiest excuses to get their grade bumped up from failing to passing. Mind you, these are the journalism majors. I'm just an education major who needs a journalism class to fill a requirement. The test was not hard. I simply looked over my notes for an hour beforehand and got an A.

The first question they had a problem with was (paraphrased): You are a journalist doing a series of articles on the unsavory lifestyles of rock musicians. You cover Dave Matthews, Snoop Dog, Elvis, and Johnny Cash. Who cannot sue you for libel?

The answers were Elvis and Johnny Cash, the point being that dead people can't sue for libel, and neither can their heirs. But the geniuses in my class argued this question should be thrown out, because A) Snoop Dogg is not a "rock" musician, and B) they didn't know who Johnny Cash was.

My jaw dropped. Even if you aren't into his music, there was a movie last year about Johnny Cash! How can you be so culturally ignorant as to not know who Cash is? Okay, so you don't listen to "that sort" of music, as one student put it (what sort? Cash fits into so many genres and styles). The professor made it clear that you could ask questions during the test. Why would you not ask about an unfamiliar musician? He would have given the student the relevant info (that Cash is dead), and she could have answered the question!

The professor ended up removing the question from the results and giving the class credit for it. It happened for ten other questions as well!

Another question asked about "puffery" in advertising, basically a vague statement that says nothing of substance but makes the product look good. The correct choice for the question was an example of puffery, something like "Viagra lifts up your love life." Except he had a typo, and spelled it "Viagara." People agrued that they didn't understand the question because of the misspelling. But the name of the product wasn't important to answer the question. It was the "puffery" of "lifts up your love life" versus concrete, provable statements like "Vehicle X has a 200 horsepower engine."

In summation, I'm just incredibly pissed at these intellectually lazy, whiny students who browbeat and otherwise great prof - a nice, funny guy- into raising their grades. And I'm disappointed in the prof too, since I think he's such a good guy and should have had a spine.

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keokuk
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat Monroe:
My jaw dropped. Even if you aren't into his music, there was a movie last year about Johnny Cash! How can you be so culturally ignorant as to not know who Cash is? Okay, so you don't listen to "that sort" of music, as one student put it (what sort? Cash fits into so many genres and styles). The professor made it clear that you could ask questions during the test. Why would you not ask about an unfamiliar musician? He would have given the student the relevant info (that Cash is dead), and she could have answered the question!

I couldn't stand people like that in college either, but I would say that this is a poor question. It shouldn't require outside information, and in this case, there was no need for a more obscure person like Johnny Cash to be placed in when Elvis already was. Not that Johnny Cash was obscure, but just that if you already have one person that is universally known and known to be dead in the question, then I would go with that.

Also, it would put the professor in a weird spot if someone went up and asked who Johnny Cash was. Unless he wanted to take five minutes to give detailed information to mask the point of the question, it would have been given away.

I agree with your overall point, but think this is a case where it was a poor question. If the only purpose was to test if students knew they could not be sued for libel over something written about someone who is deceased, then why not test on that rather than testing on what figures in music history the students know to be deceased?

Also, just out of curiosity, in the Viagra question, if "lifts up your love life" were intended as a double entendre, would it still be puffery?

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Only tangentially related to the OP:

I had a teacher that always threw away something like 5 questions on every test. It was his version of "curving" the exams. He took the questions that most people missed and took them off the test, so if the test was originally 25 questions, after he threw out questions it would be 20. I don't remember if he gave bonus points for getting them right, he might have. Anyway, he said it was because even though he always took his tests to make sure they were at our level, sometimes he would write questions that were too tricky or confusing, and if most of the class got one question wrong, it was probably the question's fault.

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Muskrat Monroe
A View to a Krill


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I'll give you that, in the end, it could be considered a poor question. I've got a Johnny Cash poster on my wall, so I guess my personal bias was coming into play. But even though I don't listen to Dave Matthews or Snoop Dogg, I still know who they are, and knew that the point of the question was "which of these people are dead?" And using "Snoop Dogg isn't rock" as a serious argument is lame.

But it was the general attitude of the students that annoyed me more than the content of their arguments.

I mean, this same student also took issue with a question about "consumable" work. A consumable work is something like a coloring book or book of Suduko puzzles, soething that gets "used up" as it's read. The choices were a Shakespeare play, a connect-the-dots puzzle, a book about food, a workout video, and an unfavorable movie review. She chose the "book about food." (I suspect she did so because food is consumable). She tried to argue that her answer should be accepted, because she said, it's a "consumer product" but really, she just didn't know the definition of "consumable" in the context of copyright.

She wasn't the only one arguing for credit on a question when it was painfully clear that they just didn't know the material.

Luckily, the prof didn't give credit for those questions.

It's generally frustrating because I like the class, and I don't think it's difficult. This is a senior level class outside my major, and I'm getting an A. But these people are making it clear that they're just not listening or reading. I see that in some of their arguments that it's that their overthinking some the questions, and I know what it is like to do that. But this isn't a prof who tries to trick you or trip you up.

Maybe I am being too harsh. What do the snopesters think? I realize that not everyone finds the same material easy, but this outside my major, and the concepts aren't that "technical," for lack of a better word. I don't think it's too much to ask for journalism majors to learn, for example, what libel is, and who can or cannot sue for it, how to prove it, and how to defend against the allegations.

Edited: I haven't got a problem with throwing out questions that a sigificant percentage of students missed. As an education major, I recognize that that happens when the teacher wither didn't cover the material well enough or clearly enough, or the question was poorly phrased. But he had the percentages of students who got each question right/wrong, and he shared a few with us. A significant percentage of people were getting these questions right.

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Paulie Jay
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You're not being too harsh Muskrat, the questions seem perfectly plain to me and I've never studied journalism. Those other students should just get their lazy asses off the couch and into a study area.

What offends me the most, though, is being scored 102%. Mathematical illiteracy (or innumeracy) is just as grinding as lazy students.

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Canuckistan
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I have no issue with the question. Part of being a journalist is having some idea about the stuff you're covering. If you're covering music, you should at least know that Johnny Cash is a musician.

And if the concept is covered in class, there's no excuse. I think you're right, Muskrat.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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You can't sue for libel on behalf of someone if they die? I guess that means that truth isn't the only absolute defense against libel charges.

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MissEltoe
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Muskrat, not only did I go to college with these kids, I went to high school with them.

There were kids who were pretty damn smart, and just spent too much time partying or focusing on their social lives or boy/girlfriends or whatever and didn't study. Then there was me. I usually didn't study (not really good at that; just kinda don't know how) and I'd get pretty decent grades. I would get sooooo annoyed when kids would argue about material they claimed wasn't covered in class or, like the people in your class, they "didn't understand the question".

I always felt I wasn't as smart as these kids but if I could do it, what the hell were they complaining about?! I'm sorry, and I hope you don't have to deal with that kind of nonsense every time you have a test.

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keokuk
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quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
I have no issue with the question. Part of being a journalist is having some idea about the stuff you're covering. If you're covering music, you should at least know that Johnny Cash is a musician.

So because the test pulled out a hypothetical situation where the student was a journalist covering music, then the student should have studied under the assumption that such a hypothetical could have been brought up?
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Tantei Kijo
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I could see some trouble with the Cash question. I asked my husband the question, but he somehow missed that Cash had died, though he did know that the point was to chose the people who were dead. (So, unlike the people who just plain didn't know who the guy was, he wouldn't have asked about him.) The Snoop Dog defense is bogus though, since if anything he should sue for the libel of calling him a "rock" musician. [Razz]

I guess the wheedling points out of the Prof will help them learn valuable skills in dickering with an editor over various innacuracies in their articles. [Roll Eyes]

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Canuckistan
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quote:
Originally posted by Troodon:
You can't sue for libel on behalf of someone if they die?

In Canada, you can get a cease-and-desist order. That's as far as the law goes. The estate cannot sue for libel. I guess the idea is that once they're dead, their reputation becomes somewhat irrelevant.

quote:
Originally posted by keokuk:
So because the test pulled out a hypothetical situation where the student was a journalist covering music, then the student should have studied under the assumption that such a hypothetical could have been brought up?

I have no problem with that.

Hey, life isn't always fair.

Besides, it's not like Johnny Cash is an obscure reference. He's about as mainstream as country music gets.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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keokuk
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quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
Besides, it's not like Johnny Cash is an obscure reference. He's about as mainstream as country music gets.

Except it's no a class about country music. Or music. Or entertainment. It's on Journalism Law and Ethics.

He might be as mainstream as country music gets, but that doesn't mean that him being dead should necessarily be assumed as universally-known fact.

Life isn't always fair, but I'd think that a college test on a specific subject should be, and that there's nothing to be learned by marking a student wrong because he had to take a guess at a question about a person he might know nothing about.

Let's start doing it more often. Testing for high school math? Then what would a pitcher's ERA be on the season if he goes 6-4 with 33 walks, 89 strikeouts, and 40 earned runs surrendered over 102.1 innings? It's not like ERA is an obscure reference. It's as mainstream as baseball stats get.

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MissEltoe
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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But if you were going to "argue" about not knowing who Johnny Cash is/was, why wouldn't you just ask?

I don't know anything about baseball, in fact, I hate baseball, but in the case of keokuk's example, I would obviously ask the teacher/professor if I thought knowing would improve my chances of answering the question correctly.

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Canuckistan
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I understand your concern, keokuk. Nevertheless, I have to disagree with you here.

On the test, you are not being asked to write a country song. You are simply being asked to know who a big country star is.

The thing for me is that this is a journalism class. Journalists should know at least a bit about the fields they are covering. Otherwise, their stories come back flat and superficial.

In this case, only the most cursory knowledge of country music is needed. I don't think that's too much to ask of students in a journalism class.

I do find Tantei Kijo's concern much more convincing, namely that many people may not have heard that he died. That is a good criticism of the question. The fact that they don't know who Johnny Cash is doesn't convince me.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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ComicBookGeek
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I'm more appalled about the Viagra question being thrown out. My Spanish teacher has misspelled words all the time and she just writes the correct word on the board.

I would think typos would be worse in a language class than an ethics class.

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Damian
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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a simple answer would be: the dead ones. I don't know Dave Matthews but I have heard of Snoop Dogg. Couldn't tell you if they were dead or alive.

It could also be argued the Elvis (Costello) is still alive.

If the course is on journalism, and the issue of libel (and defenses) was studied, then surely the class should have known what the question was asking.

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Brillo Bee
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Wow. I've never even taken this class or anything like it and I think I could have gotten all those questions right.

So, yeah, maybe it's not fair to expect that everyone knows who Johnny Cash is, but it is fair to expect that if a student didn't know who anyone on the list was, they would ask the professor about it during the test. I might have a bit of sympathy if a student put only Elvis as their answer because they didn't know Cash was dead.

The consumable thing is just ridiculous, IMHO, and the students should have asked about the Viagra spelling, and/or been able to answer the question with the misspelling.

The other day I graded a problem that students had done that was worded, "Predict the blah blah blah." Mind you, this was a prediction that could be made with excellent accuracy by applying a simple mathematical equation. A student (and every year I get this) tried to argue that I couldn't possibly mark any prediction wrong ever, because it is a "prediction." I explain to them the difference between predictions made with crystal balls and predictions made using all of the knowledge at hand, but they and I both know they're just fishing for points they don't deserve, so I don't take it much more seriously than that. I just smile and hand them their paper back, saying, "nice try."

So yeah, I can see why you're frustrated.

Bee

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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They let people into college without knowing who Johnny Cash is? Education standards must be plumetting.
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Muskrat Monroe
A View to a Krill


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Just to clarify, the test was multiple choice. The musician question's answers looked like this:

Who of these four cannot sue for libel?

a) Elvis Presley
b) Snoop Dogg
c) Dave Matthews
d) Johnny Cash
e) both A and D

Presley's last name was included, so no dice for thinking Costello.

If I myself had not known Cash was dead, and was tempted to just choose A, seeing that E option would have given me pause, and I would have asked simply, "Is Johnny Cash dead?" That would have shown the prof right there that I got the point, so I can't imagine he'd refuse to help. In fact, I can't imagine he'd refuse to help in any case, because, like I said, he's a good guy.

The question was one of those ones that goes higher up on the learning heirarchy. It wasn't a memorization question, it was about application. Listening to the complaints I got the feeling that, even if they had known the death status of all four people, they wouldn't have understood that they were being asked to apply what they had learned instead of just regurgitate.

I didn't even realize Viagra was misspelled on the test- it wasn't until someone complained and I flipped back to it that I noticed. And I don't know if that ended up being one thrown out. He told us to add 12 points to our scores and reeled off the question numbers he was dropping, but it didn't matter because you got the points whether you had originally missed the question or not. The "consumable" defense didn't fly though, I know that one stayed on the test.

I wish the prof had stood up for himself better but the majority of my rant is definitely aimed at my fellow students.

quote:
Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
They let people into college without knowing who Johnny Cash is? Education standards must be plumetting.

I will admit that Cash being one of my personal heroes is playing a part in my indignation. It's not fair of me, and I know that. I'm making the same mistake that the prof did in think that everyone must know who Cash is. But he did have a fairly profound impact on American music; ven rap and hip-hop, where I've definitely heard artists talking about songs like "Folsom Prison Blues" and the gritty content of his lyrics.

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Dropbear
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The prof did make some basic mistakes in setting the questions. However some of the student's complaints were asinine. Problem for the prof was that having acknowledged he stuffed up in some parts he weakened his case for not giving in in others.

More specifically

1. In creating a question which related to the law of libel and aimed to draw out that dead people can't sue he did not within the question provide sufficient information to answer it correctly. If you are going to ask a test question basic assessment protocols suggest that the testee is given all the relevant info in order to be able to answer the question. The prof should either have put in birth/death dates eg Johnny Cash (1925-1998 please don't correct me on this I really don't care that these dates are wrong) or he should have used different examples eg the 18th Century Composer Mozart. Or else he should have reframed the question entirely

2. Test papers should be checked for spelling - particularly in regard to proper names where they are being used as examples. Yes it was a simple error that the students should have gotten past but it needs to be correct if its being used as a fair assessment tool.

The whingy students clearly used the prof's mistakes to their advantage but they were mistakes.

Dropbear

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Fitz
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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I had a teacher that always threw away something like 5 questions on every test. It was his version of "curving" the exams. He took the questions that most people missed and took them off the test, so if the test was originally 25 questions, after he threw out questions it would be 20.

You know these days they have something that actually makes sense in figuring out what was a good question or not. The software that scores Scantron tests (multiple choice tests graded by a computer.) The software tabulates which students got each answer correct and wrong and compares it to how those students scored on the test overall.

If the students who did better on the test overall were more likely than those who scored poorly on a test to get that question right it is seen as an effective question since it seemingly separates the ones who were prepared for the test than those who were not. If the breakdown of a particular answer is evenly distributed among everyone itís seen as ineffective since what is the likelihood that the students who didnít know the answers to much of the rest of the test would know that one, while the ones who knew most of the material on the test wouldnít know that one?

It also works in reverse if a question was answered correctly by everyone it wasnít effective in separating those who knew the material from those who did not, since everyone knew it.

As for the Johnny Cash one, I can see the studentís point about being dead. Elvis died some 30 years ago and that is well known but Cash only died 3 years ago. I knew he was dead, but plenty of people may not. I often am not sure about entertainers who are mostly known from the past but I havenít heard much from lately, if they are alive or not. The Snoop Dogg one was just dumb to argue that.

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Logoboros
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Fitz:

It also works in reverse if a question was answered correctly by everyone it wasnít effective in separating those who knew the material from those who did not, since everyone knew it.

This doesn't seem quite right. If everyone got the question correct, it means that the question pertained to material that everyone was able to master. That does not make it an inferior question -- unless the goal of a test is to create "winners" and "losers" (which, of course, is not the goal of most academic tests: they are supposed to evaluate an individual's understanding of a body of material).

Maybe you'd use this logic in designing a qualifying exam, where your goal is, in fact, to eliminate a substantial number of the candidates.

--Logoboros

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"If Men were Wise, the Most arbitrary Princes could not hurt them. If they are not wise, the Freest Government is compelld to be a Tyranny."

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me, no really
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Usually the explanation I have heard is that a poor question (or at least one that needs evaluating carefully) is one that is answered incorrectly by most people (at least better than random chance) and the majority of people getting it correct were low scorers in the test as a whole. That would normally indicate that something is flwaed in the way the question is worded or scored.

me

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El Camino
We Three Blings


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I could mumble some jibes about journalism majors, but I'll restrain myself.

(Instead, I'll put this notification of my restraint to prove that they are in some way worthy of mocking without actually doing so myself. Clever, eh?)


Mmhph mumble mumble damn journalism majors meh mumble bleh.

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keokuk
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:

I do find Tantei Kijo's concern much more convincing, namely that many people may not have heard that he died. That is a good criticism of the question. The fact that they don't know who Johnny Cash is doesn't convince me.

That's actually the reason I got so overly defensive about it. I'm not a big country fan, but I know Johnny Cash and am aware of some of his more famous songs. I didn't know that he had died. Looking back, I probably cast too big a net of criticism on the question.
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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Dropbear:
1. In creating a question which related to the law of libel and aimed to draw out that dead people can't sue he did not within the question provide sufficient information to answer it correctly. If you are going to ask a test question basic assessment protocols suggest that the testee is given all the relevant info in order to be able to answer the question. The prof should either have put in birth/death dates eg Johnny Cash (1925-1998 please don't correct me on this I really don't care that these dates are wrong) or he should have used different examples eg the 18th Century Composer Mozart. Or else he should have reframed the question entirely

Yes, that question, as written, is poor. I'm at least marginally familiar with the four musicians. However, there is not enough information given in the question to reasonably expect everyone to arrive at the correct answer. Unless the prof had specifically covered these musicians in class and had explained earlier that Elvis and Cash were dead, it's unreasonable to assume all the students would know.
Providing birth and death (if applicable) dates of the artists would give the students enough information to be able to apply their knowledge of libel law to answer the question.

The question is not testing students on their musical knowledge, but on their knowledge of legal ethics. Therefore, it is a poorly-designed question because it assumes the students already have knowledge of these musicians.

For example, all I know about Snoop Dogg is that he's a rap artist, and that Dave Matthews is a sort of indie rock musician. If we were told nothing else about them, I'd have a hard time answering a question that assumed I knew vital information, such as whether they were alive or not. (In this case, I happen to know they're alive, but it's not fair for me to be expected to know that.)

I'd feel justified complaining to the professor about that one.

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Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Canuckistan
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quote:
Originally posted by keokuk:
quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:

I do find Tantei Kijo's concern much more convincing, namely that many people may not have heard that he died. That is a good criticism of the question. The fact that they don't know who Johnny Cash is doesn't convince me.

That's actually the reason I got so overly defensive about it. I'm not a big country fan, but I know Johnny Cash and am aware of some of his more famous songs. I didn't know that he had died. Looking back, I probably cast too big a net of criticism on the question.
Well, then, I guess we're in agreement then, aren't we? Well? Aren't we? Huh?

(Sorry, snark just comes naturally to me. [Razz] )

I agree that this question might not have been the best, for the reason that a lot of people might have missed Cash's death, which, while in 2003, might have slipped some people's minds. Whereas we all know Elvis is dead.

And by dead, I mean working in a McDonald's in Michigan. [Razz]

Tangentially, I do get annoyed when journalists know little about the field they are covering. It does lead to superficial stories that really don't say anything.

I'd say it's better that journalism students learn that in school than, say, at their first job, when they get consistent dressings-down from their editors.

(Edited to add some stuff in.)

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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unklesamta
Deck the Malls


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Sure the question might have been poor, or lacking pertinent information, but anytime I come across a question in an exam that I do not understand, I always take the time to ask the prof.

I would contend that the lack of knowledge of the material prevented them from asking the correct question in order to answer correctly. Cleary that was the case of those students claiming they didn't get it correct because snoop dogg tripped them up.

I would have only given credit to those who answered A.

Edit- Needed more words.

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

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Brad from Georgia
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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While it is true that the dead cannot sue for libel, they wait on the far side of the Styx with brass knuckles and weighted baseball bats....

On topic, as a teacher I review multiple-choice questions (our Scantron machine actually does this for me) and if 90% or more of my students miss a question, most times I'll throw it out and not count it--because on re-reading it, I realize it was badly framed or ambiguous.

But I don't bargain with students.

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Hubert Cumberdale
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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It sounds like those students will do just fine in the real world. From what I see at work, whining and pleading ignorance are the best ways to get what you want done.
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Arriah
The First USA Noel


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I SO wish I could argue with you. [Frown]

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Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself
Rebecca

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ChelleGame
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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The students are brats!

I think he should have had a brief biography of all the people mentioned so that the dates of death would be one fact among several. The info would be there, but the student would have to ascertain the significance. He could have also listed, at that point, that Snoop is a rapper. [Smile]

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Michelle

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HollowMan
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by unklesam's under the boardwalk:
Sure the question might have been poor, or lacking pertinent information, but anytime I come across a question in an exam that I do not understand, I always take the time to ask the prof.

I would contend that the lack of knowledge of the material prevented them from asking the correct question in order to answer correctly. Cleary that was the case of those students claiming they didn't get it correct because snoop dogg tripped them up.

I would have only given credit to those who answered A.

Edit- Needed more words.

I think this would have been the best course of action. Any student who did not include Elvis as part of his answer, clearly did not understand the fact that a dead person cannot sue for libel, and therefore would not have included Cash even if they knew he was dead.

I'll agree also that the question may be poorly written, (Disclosure: I would have know Cash is dead.) however the mere presence of answer E would have been enough to make me think, and ask the professor.

The Viagra question should not have been thrown out. While tests should be free of spelling errors, that should not have impacted whether or not the student could get the correct answer.

Incidentally, I had a poor question this morning on my English exam. A question was repeated back to back, with only one multiple choice option changed between the two questions.

And my bonus question was about eating soup... Wierd.

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Heisenberg may have slept here.

I got an idea... an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about.

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BeowulfGirl
Happy Holly Days


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Oh, Jesus Christ, I go through this every damn semester.

Long story short: Several years ago, I gave an exam in Science Fiction class which had a question on it that was suddenly rendered inanswerable because Douglas Adams had died that week. All I did was announce, "please disregard number eight--it's no longer relevent, and I'll give you credit for it." It was only worth two points, but the students were happy about their little gift. No problem.

After the exam, a girl approached me and said that the entire class should get automatic credit for yet another question because the T.A. who had typed the exam had accidentally misspelled "black box fiction" as "blakc box fiction." This girl insisted that she had "no idea" what the question was because of this simple transposition error.

Man, that cheesed me off.

And then there was Jessie, the girl who got a 96% on her research paper and demanded to know why she didn't get a 100% and said, sweetly, "I think I'm going to show this paper to your Dean."

[Mad]

--Beowulf "she was stuck with the 96!" Girl

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Arriah
The First USA Noel


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That's just silly. It took me almost a whole 2 weeks into my first simester to realize that anything above 93% was an A (and sometimes below that). I'll work as hard as I can to get 100's to balance out any less wonderful work I turn in but I would never argue over a paper that got a 96% (unless it was for a spelling error that I didn't make or something else equally concrete) because it's still an A anyway.

*Note that this applies to the US GPA system and may not be the same for other systems.

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Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself
Rebecca

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