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Author Topic: Why not homeschooling?
Rhiandmoi
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I am one of those people that is generally against homeschooling. I am extremely biased in favor of professional educators because nearly every adult in my life growing up was a teacher of some kind. That said, I don't think that schooling only happens at school. I think every child should be home schooled to some degree. I think every child should be involved with non-school activities, go to museums and cultural events, and receive additional instruction from their parents and families. I also think there are children that can benefit from homeschooling, either temporarily to make up for school hours lost because of illness, or because the family has some unusual circumstances (such as one family I know of homeschooling because they spent a year sailing around the world) or long term because they have special learning challenges.

Even though I am against homeschooling, I think it is a parents right to decide how their child is educated. I think the students should be held to the same standards as public school students, and they should have to prove they meet those standards by being professionally evaluated and graded each year.

ETA:
How do homeschoolers apply to colleges? Do they have to take SAT subject tests in every subject to display aptitude?

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babyshoes
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Iguana:
Teachers plan their lessons well in advance. While I am unfamiliar with homeschooling, what little exposure I have to it is that you pick a curriculum that someone else made up and present it to your child. (Homeschoolers, is this right?) At school, you get socialization with other children your age.

PI, the answer to your curriculum question is "it depends." I know people who would never purchase a curriculum; I know people who wouldn't dream of not using a purchased curriculum. We started out with Calvert (a real school, which really uses the same materials in their classrooms as they sell to homeschoolers). It became quite difficult to match DD's abilities to the expected age/grade levels. Now, for her, I use Calvert's math and use Virginia's Standards of Learning as guidelines for what she studies.

"Socialization" is my personal munchkin. There are as many definitions of what it means as there are people who know the word. [Smile] My definition involves my children being able to get along with others *and* stand up for themselves with others of all backgrounds and ages, not just their age-peers.

And--just to clarify--this is my opinion and my experience. I have never--and would never--suggest that homeschooling is for everyone. The best education for any child is what works best for that child, IMO.

Ooops--sorry this is so long!

babyshoes

ET clarify my clarification, and to request syrup for the waffle which follows. [Smile]

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
ETA:
How do homeschoolers apply to colleges? Do they have to take SAT subject tests in every subject to display aptitude?

Yep, they apply just like everyone else. Most colleges I have spoken to ask for a transcript. If the parents used a private correspondence school, this is provided by the school. If the parents did all the teaching, they usually present a portfolio of the child's work and examples of what the curriculum covered. Standardized test scores are the main thing they look at though. When my parents took my sister to the local community college to ask about enrolling her, the admission counselor took one look at her ACT score (21 for a 15-year-old who hadn't covered trig or college algebra yet, but nearly aced the English and reading sections) and said there wouldn't be a problem.

I think four-year universities tend to be a little more thorough, but I know this particular school gets a lot of freshmen coming out of private religious schools and homeschoolers, so they're probably used to dealing with it. Sometimes they require placement tests if a student wants to enroll in anything with prereqs (a science or math class that requires at least a year of high school calculus or trig, for example) but it's not really any different than when a normal student wants to test out of credits via AP/CLEP or "challenge" exams.

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This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
Even though I am against homeschooling, I think it is a parents right to decide how their child is educated. I think the students should be held to the same standards as public school students, and they should have to prove they meet those standards by being professionally evaluated and graded each year.

When I was being homeschooled in Florida, this was the case. Every year a certified teacher had to interview my parents (and me) and look over my work. There were also standardized tests my mother could order through homeschooling catalogs to gauge my abilities. I'm not sure if they were the same ones given in Florida schools, but they were quite similar and so she had those results to back up my work portfolio.

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This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

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snapdragonfly
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It occured to me that when my daughter was in elementary school, and I was teaching one day and having lunchroom duty, and having to make sure that none of the kids for gawd's sake TALKED to each other or anything - because if they did they'd lose their enormous extended long TEN MINUTE recess (yes, I'm being sarcastic) and how they weren't allowed to talk in class, or in the hall, or anywhere, basically, all day long, - I realized that all this "socialization" they are supposed to get in school, sometimes, isn't really socialization.

How are they supposed to learn socialization when they never get any time to socialize? They sneak some in, of course, because teachers can't tape their mouths shut, but little groups of 3 or 4 homeschoolers doing a project together have a LOT more freedom to talk and interact.

One thing that *some* homeschoolers don't know how to do is not blurt out the answer - no reason to raise your hand and wait on mom to call on you. But then there are kids in school who don't seem to have that skill either. Heh.

Learning how to line up when the bell rings, in a straight line, and stand there, still and silent until the teacher escorts you to someplace else, is regimentation, not socialization. Learning to not pee all day long except for certain alloted times is a useful skill for someone in a job that imposes the same restrictions, but frankly, that was one of the reasons I decided not to continue teaching - because teachers can't just go pee anytime they feel like it either! I know that sounds silly but it sucks!

Regimentation may or may not be useful to an adult, I don't know. But most of the homeschool kids I know probably get more actual socializing during the course of a week than a lot of kids in public school.

I also agree that throwing a kid with little natural defenses against bullies, into a school that ignores the problem and expecting them to just "toughen up" is about as successful as throwing a kid in the water and expecting them to swim. They might, but then again they might just go through needless years of misery that has no productive result or benefit at all, and they eventually learn how to get along DESPITE, not because, of being bullied. I'm talking about kids who are really severly picked on, here, not just kids who get a few jibes now and then.

Ideally, public school should provide socialization (that recess crap irks me no end - ten minutes a day, my ass) and adopt a zero tolerance towards bullying, but many don't.

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DevilBunny
Deck the Malls


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Chalk me up as another one who wasn't socialised until university.

This was largely because I was clever, fat, a voracious reader, interested in things the other children at the school couldn't even understand, and (and here's the important bit) used to interacting with adults on a semi-equal level. Wherever possible, my parents treated me as a semi-adult (they felt that I wouldn't learn courtesy if I wasn't treated with it), and I learned to interact with people in that fashion.

Now, the thing about socialisation at school is that it's conducted with a lot of other people who don't know the rules yet either. So having learned to interact using social rules was actually a hideous disadvantage. I got on well with my teachers, was bullied horribly by my 'peers', and the point where I finally successfully 'socialised' was at more or less the point where the others caught up with the rules I'd been using all along.

Personally, I think that while children need other children for a lot of things, most of their socialisation should come from the adults in their lives.

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mrs.hi-c clown fishies
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I've seen the good side and the bad side of homeschooling:

First the good:
A friend of mine was the oldest in a family of 6 kids. When they came to the school/church I attended, she was the only one who went to regular school. She said she started at her old school in 5th grade. IIRC, her siblings followed suit--homeschooled until 5th or 6th grade, then regular junior high and high school. They were a bit socially awkward at first, but they blended into the larger classes rather quickly. All of the kids were very bright, as well--with my friend being in the Top 10 of our graduating class. Their mom did a good job of teaching them what they needed to know, as she had a bachelor's in education.

And the bad...
DH's cousin also has several kids, erm...5 I think (she just popped another one out not too long ago). However, she was not the brightest crayon in the box in school. From what DH has said, she barely managed to finish high school. So, here she is now "homeschooling" her kids, when she isn't really qualified herself. I'm sure the kids know their basic skills--colors, numbers, alphabet...but I question how much they are really learning. It is hard to tell if the 10-year-old is really on a 5th grade level, but I don't think he is. They seem to take an awful lot of field trips, too. The last time the family visited up here, they brought 2 kids from another cousin. The 2 kids were more social than the other kids, and were overall better behaved and showed more responsibility.

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MaxKaladin
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by DevilBunny:
Chalk me up as another one who wasn't socialised until university.

This was largely because I was clever, fat, a voracious reader, interested in things the other children at the school couldn't even understand, and (and here's the important bit) used to interacting with adults on a semi-equal level. Wherever possible, my parents treated me as a semi-adult (they felt that I wouldn't learn courtesy if I wasn't treated with it), and I learned to interact with people in that fashion.

Now, the thing about socialisation at school is that it's conducted with a lot of other people who don't know the rules yet either. So having learned to interact using social rules was actually a hideous disadvantage. I got on well with my teachers, was bullied horribly by my 'peers', and the point where I finally successfully 'socialised' was at more or less the point where the others caught up with the rules I'd been using all along.

Personally, I think that while children need other children for a lot of things, most of their socialisation should come from the adults in their lives.

I had a similar experience. I was never home schooled. I spent a lot of time around adults and they didn't treat me like just some dumb and annoying kid. I lived in an older neighborhood where there were very few children anywhere near my age and I had very few relatives near my age. In addition, I was a somewhat bookish sort with "uncool" interests (like science-fiction -- rather uncool for small-town Texas in the 70s and 80s). Put all that together and starting school was a huge shock. I could get along with adults just fine, but had a horrible time dealing with other people my age.

My schools followed the "toss 'em in together and they'll work it all out" approach. As a result, I floundered through most of my school years trying desperately to figure out what the rules were, what I was supposed to do, how to get along and why everyone was picking on me all the time. I have long suspected that one of the reasons so many of the teachers and administrators at my schools never intervened to help me when I was being bullied was because they believed that being bullied was a result of my "non-social" behavior and helping me would simply be "enabling" my non-social behavior. I remember being told once that I could stop being bullied by "fitting in". Strangely, nobody was ever terribly helpful in telling me what I was doing wrong so I could fit in better. I did eventually learn enough to get along and high school wasn't bad.

As an adult, I've found that the socialization you get in school is rather specific to the school experience and isn't all that useful in dealing with the adult world. I learned far more useful lessons from my parents and from being allowed to interact with adults as a kid. Frankly, I think my experience with socialization in school did more harm than good.

Another thing I found was that the little small-town school I went to didn't expose me to all that many different types of people. I didn't find out how true that was until college.

It occurrs to me to ask: If school is supposed to teach socialization, shouldn't it be taught by professionals instead of throwing a bunch of kids in together and letting them all work it out for themselves? If it doesn't need to be taught by professionals, why does it need to take place in school and why can't it take place elsewhere in the community instead?

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Lady Moon Shadows
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I am sure you all will be pleased to know that I will stay out of this thread. I have much to contribute, but I don't guess I should.


~~Toni

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
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quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
Even though I am against homeschooling, I think it is a parents right to decide how their child is educated. I think the students should be held to the same standards as public school students, and they should have to prove they meet those standards by being professionally evaluated and graded each year.

When I was being homeschooled in Florida, this was the case. Every year a certified teacher had to interview my parents (and me) and look over my work. There were also standardized tests my mother could order through homeschooling catalogs to gauge my abilities. I'm not sure if they were the same ones given in Florida schools, but they were quite similar and so she had those results to back up my work portfolio.
That's odd. I'm only five years older than you, and the State of Florida left the homeschool parents alone. All you had to do was fill out an affidavit that your child was being homeschooled and off you went. No supervision whatsoever, and we never took any sort of tests.

In the case of Bro and me, it didn't do much damage. However, those that got their education solely out of A Beka Books and the like never quite caught up.

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Ryda: this was in the mid-1990s (1995 was the first year, I think). I wasn't homeschooled until 5th grade when it became pretty much my only option. It may have been a county thing, but I'm not sure. I do remember the affadavit because of the trips to the notary, but we also did the curriculum review every year as well. I specifically remember the part about a certified teacher having to sign off because we always got one of my elementary teachers (who had encouraged me to get the heck out of that school) do it.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
Ryda: this was in the mid-1990s (1995 was the first year, I think). I wasn't homeschooled until 5th grade when it became pretty much my only option. It may have been a county thing, but I'm not sure. I do remember the affadavit because of the trips to the notary, but we also did the curriculum review every year as well. I specifically remember the part about a certified teacher having to sign off because we always got one of my elementary teachers (who had encouraged me to get the heck out of that school) do it.

Ahhh. That might be it. I was homeschooled from about '85 - '93. and if might very well have been a county by county thing as well. I'd imagine every district has different regulations (although that's somewhat scary).

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Rainmom
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I homeschool my son who has autism. He has learned so much more in the short time we have been at home compared to public school. In addition to our lessons, he has outside therapies and social groups. We also work on life skills..making breakfast, doing laundry etc.

It is very hard work and not for everbody. We follow a modified curriculum because he is at grade level for some subjects but not for others.

My other child is not homeschooled because she is excelling in public school.

Rainmom

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Bored and Dangerous
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I can personally say that I would never homeschool my child. If someone else wanted to take on the responsibility of teaching her in their home, more power to them, but I personally couldn't do it.

She is the type of child that takes her social cues from others, and really needs to be around other children to understand proper social behavior in her sphere. Also, she is in the GAT program at school, and they challenge and push her in ways that I never could or would want to. Not to mention, her school has won two (three?) national awards for excellence this year (despite being in a low-income area), so I have almost no concern about quality.

My SO's niece and nephews are homeschooled by their mother, who is a teacher by profession. However, they do it more for religious reasons than anything. It's very telling when a fifteen year old is convinced that a conservative Christian high school is exactly the same as a public one in terms of morality and quality of learning. She does a good job academically with them, and they socialize with other WASPy children, but I wonder what their life would be like if they associated with children not of their faith or of their race on a regular basis. I question the wisdom of never allowing a child to be exposed to another moral system or ethnic group than their own parents'.

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El Camino
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People here have mentiontioned the possibility that homeschooling could be used to "indoctrinate" a family's children or "protect them from the world." I think this can be generalized even to homeschoolers with better intentions if weakened somewhat. Every single person is a product of their environment and has a certain set of views. I can imagine that, as the only primary instructor in a child's life as well as the parent, it would be very difficult to overcome their own biases in instructing their child.

Sure, most parents probably hope that eventually their children grow up to have views similar to their own. But discriminating between opinions and making one's own decisions is an important task as well. In order to do this, a child should be objectively exposed to a variety of viewpoints. This will invariably happen in a more traditional school setting, as a child will be learning from their family as well as a variety of different school teachers. And I'm not saying it's impossible to objectively expose your child to a broad spectrum of viewpoints including ones that may contradict your own, I can imagine that it would be incredibly difficult. It would be hard to do even if as a homeschooling teacher / parent you recognized this as an issue and directly tried to correct. Overcoming one's own opinions, beliefs and biases is not something that can easily be accomplished.

If I were to think about homeschooling a child of mine, I would worry as much about whether I was indoctinating my children to be mindless copies of my beliefs as much as I would worry if I were teaching them effectively.


For example, I was raised in a liberal family in a pretty conservative town with a conservative granfather who lived nearby, and now attend a very liberal college. I feel that being exposed to a very wide spectrum of views my whole life has given me a unique perspective and strongly incfluenced the formation of my own world views (some here would probably say this explains a lot, and maybe not in a good way - with my belief set I disagree with almost everybody on some big issue). I'm not saying that's the only way to obtain a nuanced and unbiased view of the world, but I can't imagine having a comporable experience when you replace a conservative community with more of my liberal family.

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wanderwoman
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
Ryda: this was in the mid-1990s (1995 was the first year, I think). I wasn't homeschooled until 5th grade when it became pretty much my only option. It may have been a county thing, but I'm not sure. I do remember the affadavit because of the trips to the notary, but we also did the curriculum review every year as well. I specifically remember the part about a certified teacher having to sign off because we always got one of my elementary teachers (who had encouraged me to get the heck out of that school) do it.

Ahhh. That might be it. I was homeschooled from about '85 - '93. and if might very well have been a county by county thing as well. I'd imagine every district has different regulations (although that's somewhat scary).
I think how it works is that state law governs what is required, and then policy is set for each county and school district as far as how to respond to what the law requires.

Here in Indiana the law says that homeschools are private schools. They must take attendance, meet 180 days a year, and provide an education "equivalent to that taught in the public schools". The latter is not specified, however, so there are no requirements for teacher credentials, curricula, or testing.

When I get involved with a homeschool family it's usually because the children were enrolled in school and had very poor attendance. Then as soon as the school starts hassling the parents about attendance, they pull the children out of school and say they are homeschooling.

Sometimes I can file court action based on the prior poor school attendance, and get the judge to order the parents to cooperate with monitoring of their home school program.

My intent is never to tell parents how to teach their children, but many of the parents referred to my program are not teaching the children at all, and those are the ones I have a problem with. Also I occasionally run into a parent who is clearly mentally ill and is keeping the child home because of paranoia and inability to cope. Those are the ones that really scare me.

The parents who are doing a good job of educating their kids? I have no reason to have contact with them. I know there are many of those out there though.

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Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:
I am sure you all will be pleased to know that I will stay out of this thread. I have much to contribute, but I don't guess I should.

I'm not pleased and I'm a little miffed (or perhaps saddened) at your post here. You do have much to contribute and you could be a very valuable source of information in threads like this. Do you remember that big long "An Apology" thread you started? And how you indicated yourself that the problem was more the way you went about presenting your opinions? You made some promises about how you would handle it in the future, specifically that you wouldn't behave towards us as others had now behaved towards you. Your exact words were "I will still post (should it arise) about homeschooling; but I promise not to tip my spout too far over with idiocy, any more." I, and others, thanked you and really appreciated that commitment.

So what happened to that? I'm not sure what the right term is for what you chose to post in this thread. Passive aggressive? Attention seeking? Just plain pouty? I can't quite nail down what to call it. Really, your post here is the equivalent of "I'm just gonna go sit in the corner and eat some dirt since you guys don't want me to play." It strikes me as very much the same reason why this board has a rule against "I'm leaving this board forever" posts.

Again, you do have much to contribute. The only reason not to is if you can't stick to your promise about how you treat others while you do. If that's the case, then perhaps it is better than you don't, but please don't blame your absence on us.

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RingKeeper
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by ScottyP:
To me, Home schooling is like raising a child in a house of mirrors, the only thing they se is you and them selves. I'm not saying they teach the kids racism, or intolerance. But when you've never met a black person, or an asian, or a jew; and you've been led to believe that your way is the only right way, then that child has not been prepared for the real world.

Sure, you protected your kids for the evil evolutionists and homosexuals!

I can see our point, but I don't necessarily think that's true. I was raised and schooled in an area that was completely made up of white, Irish Catholic families. We learned solely about our religion, and that was a little disappointing. But despite not meeting a person of a different race until my last year of high school I was never racist and I was very interested in other religions and cultures, as were many of my friends. It didn't make us intolerant hicks to grow up the way we did. Now if Jr. is being taught intolerance and racism at home, that would happen whether he was homeschooled or not. Perhaps he would be better able to form his own opinions in a public school, who knows. I just wanted to stress that bring isolated from other cultures and races doesn't necessarily breed intolerance.

On the homeschoolingnote, I agree with those who said it depends on the individual situation. I imagine the parents who take homeschooling seriously regard socialization as a big part of the process.

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quiltsbypam
Happy Holly Days


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I worked with a woman who was homeschooled. I've seldom met a more cheerful, tolerant, well-rounded person. I can't say why her parents opted for that and she doesn't work here anymore. But she was a delight to work with.

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"No Biblical hell could ever be worse than the state of perpetual inconsequence." Beatrice in Dangerous Beauty

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by quiltsbypam:
I worked with a woman who was homeschooled. I've seldom met a more cheerful, tolerant, well-rounded person. I can't say why her parents opted for that and she doesn't work here anymore. But she was a delight to work with.

Yeah, but I've managed to convince the people I work with that I'm cheerful, hard-working, flexible, kind-hearted, funny, and well rounded.

Just wait until I kill and eat their newborn kids and puppies.

[Razz]

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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quiltsbypam
Happy Holly Days


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But Ryda, when the nicotine cravings wear off, you won't kill and eat their newborn kids and puppies.

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"No Biblical hell could ever be worse than the state of perpetual inconsequence." Beatrice in Dangerous Beauty

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Jenn:
So what happened to that? I'm not sure what the right term is for what you chose to post in this thread. Passive aggressive? Attention seeking? Just plain pouty?

No, honestly, I **did** have a post ready to go back when this thread first started and I lost it due to a crash. And then I figured it wasn't meant to be if I crashed like that. And now I can't remember what I said. [Smile]

I wasn't, honestly, trying to do any of the above. It was kind of pouty though, I'll admit it, but only because I was frustrated at reading some of the things I read. I'm not frustrated right now, though.

All I really want to say to those who nay-say homeschooling, is the same thing that was said to me when I nay-sayed "christians" as compared to Christians--we are not all the same.

You would be surprised at the vast number of resources I have available to me. There are literally hundreds. You would also be surprised at what I can "teach".

See to me, a teacher isn't just someone who went to school to earn a degree to be able to learn someone something new. Really, my DH is going through this right now--he's got a Bachelor's in Physics and can actually teach it. BUT, for the state to hire him as a teacher, he has to sit through hours upon hours of classes "teaching" him nothing but what they call "classroom management".

There are no classes that "teach" him how to teach Physics. There are no classes that "teach" him how to do labs--they presume that with his degree he learned these things--and nearly all teachers have. That little piece of paper that reads "Certified Teacher" on it has nothing to do with his degree, in fact, nothing to do with his college education at all. It only has everything to do with him sitting in a classroom listening to someone drone on and on about how to manage his classroom.

No lesson plan learning or how to write lesson plans. No anything BUT classroom management.

If you want proof of this, pick up any "1st year teacher help book" and read it. It's the exact same thing.

As such, I don't need all of this to be able to "teach" my kids anything. I don't need to learn how to write state approved lesson plans, as I don't answer to them. I don't need to learn how to write EEP's or IEP's or anything like that because I have the unique ability to tailor my child's curriculum to their learning.

Unfortunately, teachers do not have this ability. They can try, but most of the time, it is "what's best for the group".

And socialization. This is the most snarky thing you will hear me say in this thread: PUHLEESE.

My kids participate in a Homeschool Bowling league that *I* run.
My kids volunteer at our local historical society.
They've done election day volunteering.
We take numerous field trips to the most out of the way and unusual places you could ever imagine.
My oldest does the grocery shopping (with me present). She also cooks.

This is just a small snippet of our WEEK. And we are only a family of 4. Mulitply that to people who have larger families and the socialzation argument goes out the door.

Yes, the majority of homeschoolers school for "religious" reasons and some of them ARE far-fetched (and wretched). But even still, their kids are getting an education, you can bank on it.

I know there was more for me to say, so I'll just say these things and wait for the questions. I do have to work tonight (ugh until 4 am), so I probably won't get back until sometime tommorrow. But I will come back. I'm not ignoring. I'll stay here until I leave for work, I promise.

~~Toni

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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As a non-parent, I have some basic social responsibility negative-type reactions to homeschooling, and do despite the fact that some of my friends are homeschooling their children.

1. This option is simply not economically available to many people (single parents, families which need two incomes, families in which neither parent is tempermentally suited to staying home all day with their kids). Thus, it is an example of those who are well off (or fanatic) enough to do it withdrawing their children from the unwashed masses.

2. I would love to see the people who have enough time, energy and resources to homeschool their own kids channel some of that energy into the public schools for those who don't have the option.

3. Here in ABQ, there the school district supports homeschooling parents in a lot of ways: providing curricula, family schools in which kids do a sort of half at home/half in school sort of thing. They recently got their own building. Meanwhile the kids in the poorer areas of town (with fewer people willing/able to advocate for them) have to make do with "portables". As a tax payer, I would prefer to see resources spread a little more equitably.

4. If you want to launch me into a furious turquoise tirade, the quickest way is to get one of these home schooling parents to claim that they shouldn't have to pay taxes to support the schools because they are taking care of their own. I have no children. I am happy to pay taxes for education because a well-educated population is in the interests of all of us.

5. There is also the question of giving back. I think most homeschooling parents, at least the ones I know, benefited, themselves, from going to public schools and universities. To pull their children and themselves out of the resource pool smacks to me of "I've got mine. NFBSK the rest of you."

6. This is not the homeschooler's fault, but homeschooling is a symptom of this. The schools no longer seem to belong to the communities. They are seen as a drain on public resources. As the descendent of two one-room school teachers, I find this sad. One of the first things our forebears did when founding communities was to build a school for the common eduation of our children. Although I understand the allure, I find the homeschool trend to be part of the increasing trend in our country for everyone to go into their little houses each night and not interact with their neighbors. I do not think it is a coincidence that one of the homeschooling families I know also lives in a gated community.

I have to add that if this is your decision, it's your decision and there is nothing I can do about it. I am not going to work to ban it or anything. It just makes me sad.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by quiltsbypam:
But Ryda, when the nicotine cravings wear off, you won't kill and eat their newborn kids and puppies.

Not the puppies, no....It's been my plan all along to eat the newborns......Mmmmmm. Newborns....

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Point for point, as best I can:

1: Umm, no. It is available to everyone, in all races, creeds, religions and monetary value. I know many Single parents who work successfully and homeschool succesfully. I agree with the aspect that it might not be available to the poorer of our Nation, but truly one can homeschool for virtually nothing these days. It isn't available to **only** the rich.

2: How do you know we don't? I can name 5 women right now who WORK in the public schools--either as an aide, or some other such helper and one as a therapist (I believe she is speech). Given the fact that my husband is a PUBLIC high school teacher, I think I give a LOT back.

3: I think, as a taxpayer, I'd prefer to see ALL resources used better for the good of that particular society, not just school resources. I take no help from the school systems at all (don't use the virtual school that *is* available to me), I don't feel it is any kind of drain on the system for those that do use the help the school systems offer.

4: I have NEVER met a homeschooler who has EVER claimed this, ever. We have no say in how our taxes are spent so I don't know what makes you think we'd have any say over them now that we chose to homeschool. We have just as much as you do, which is next to none. I have to pay my taxes just the same as you and they go to the same places, whether I want them to or not.

5: Sure we did benefit from those things. But what gives you the idea that we are somehow "robbing" society by keeping our kids at home and educating them there? My child is not your resource just as you are not a resource to me. You shouldn't be allowed to use my child as such a resource any more than I shouldn't be allowed to use you. But that said, I still don't get how you can claim we are somehow robbing society of this magical student population, just by keeping them at home.

6. I don't know about you, but the schools never really belonged to the communities. Maybe in Ole' Abe's time, but once they became "standarized", the community lost their right to the school. How can I be a drain on public resources if my kids aren't in the school that uses said resources?

I purchase my own curriculum, with no help from anyone else, I pay my taxes just as you do and I use my own gas, my own funds to operate my "school". How am I draining public resources?

And again, I believe you are massively sterotyping when you say we "lock our selves up at night and don't interact with our neighbors". Especially since I can direct you to the Rantidote section of this very board and to several threads involving "neighbors" of some kind. If that's the kind of interaction some get with their neighbors, who can blame them for not interacting?

And is this a straw man or a red herring (I always get them confused) or circular logic or something like that: "I do not think it is a coincidence that one of the homeschooling families I know also lives in a gated community."

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. Some here, who DON'T homeschool, live in gated communities.

I live in a manufactured home, does that make me an "inbred redneck with 50 broken down cars in my yard"?

Sterotyping. That is all you did, TG, nothing but stereotype.

~~Toni

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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LMS - I think you are taking TG's personal experience a bit too seriously. Her's closely resembles mine, and I was a homeschooled kid, whose allowed "friends" were often homeschooled as well.

Are you going to say that my experience is also based on stereotyping?

TG is telling you what she found. Your experience says there are homeschoolers who aren't like that. Great! However, you must understand that there ARE homeschoolers who conform to that sterotype, or are even worse.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Starla
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:


2. I would love to see the people who have enough time, energy and resources to homeschool their own kids channel some of that energy into the public schools for those who don't have the option.

This type of reasoning is one of the biggest reasons I decided not to home school my kids. I researched all the education options for Starlet, visited several classrooms in multiple schools, read home school curriculum and talked to many different parents about their education choices and experiences.

One of the major arguments against classroom learning, be it public or private, is that the best and worst students are overlooked in favor of the middle. It's not an insurmountable problem, it just takes community involvement.

I spend one morning a week tutoring the kids in Starlet's class who need extra help. I don't do it for entirely altruistic reasons- it gives me an "in" in the class where I can observe what's going on and get a better idea of what Starlet needs addressed at home. I know the strong and weak points in the classroom and can better fill in the gaps at home.

Starlet is one of the brighter students (not bragging, just fact!). So I supplement things at home. We read more advanced books together, I take her to museums, we volunteer together, and I find other opportunities to expand her horizons. Home school proponents like to point out the variety of activities their children are involved in- and they are commendable- but it's not all or nothing. Traditionally schooled children can be equally involved.

I think I could do a decent job of homeschooling my kids, but ultimately I think they and the community are better served by our being involved in the public school system. I know I am privileged to be able to stay home with my kids (even though we make financial sacrifices, it's still a privilege many cannot do), and I want to share that privilege with others.

One thing that frustrates me about life as I see it is how few people are available to help others. We're all so busy with our own lives. But I think if we made more of an effort to reach out, we'd all be happier. That's a big reason I chose to remain at home- so I am more available. Those who can be available to help should do so, IMO.

I sound so preachy...

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This used to be the life, but I don't need another one.
MyBandwagon

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I homeschooled for about 6 months because we had a 13 yr old on our hands who was miserable in school. We had moved over to England and put her in an all girls school. She ended up being bullied and getting her to go to school was a nightmare. It didn't help that due to a perforated ear drum she had a hearing loss in one ear, imagine not hearing all that well and having to cope with being in school among people with an accent that is strange to you.

Anyway we took her out at Christmas, she had to have surgery anyway (on her ear) and would be missing several weeks so it seemed like a logical break.

We always intended to send her back to school eventually when she was ready to go. For us then homeschooling was always intended to be temporary.

All in all it was the best thing we could have done, but I'll be honest I was glad when she reached a point that she was ready to go back to regular school. Homeschooling, for us, was a good break and a chance for her to get enthousiastic about learning again, I don't think it would have worked as a permanent thing.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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No Ryda, I am honestly not taking it too seriously nor am I getting defensive or offended.

If your parents secluded you and only allowed you to play with other "homeschooled" kids, they missed out on a lot. And if she did do that, then she is part of that stereotype, that unfortunately, seems to follow us (as well as all stereotyped types, if that makes sense). I can apoligize for the way your mom did things, but honestly, she is your mother and she only did what she thought best for you (doesn't make it right or wrong, just what she thought).

Now I don't know the ins and outs of your mother, so I can't comment on anything but what you said. I don't lock my kids up in any way and they have more public schooled friends than homeschooled.

And I can also say I've seen some serious bullies who are homeschoolers, so we aren't immune to that situation either.

All I can tell you is that homeschooling, for us and like Christie, has been the best thing that has happened to this family. And for the majority of families I know.

Please believe me when I say this. I used to be dead set against homeschooling, feeling much the same way TG does, but now that I've done it for a while, now that I've "worked the kinks out" ---I and my kids wouldn't have it any other way.

~Toni

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:

All I can tell you is that homeschooling, for us and like Christie, has been the best thing that has happened to this family. And for the majority of families I know.

I totally get that you have had positive experiences. However, you're jumping all over tgirl because she's had different experiences. I'm glad you are a good parent. I'm glad homeschooling works for you. However, many of those I know who homeschooled fulfilled the sterotypes of homeschoolers, and not in a good way. Our experience is no less valid than is yours.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:

I purchase my own curriculum, with no help from anyone else, I pay my taxes just as you do and I use my own gas, my own funds to operate my "school". How am I draining public resources?



Look at the bit where I said that in Albuquerque, APS provides not only the curricula for parents who want it, but is building facilities to accomodate the home/family schooling families.

quote:
And again, I believe you are massively sterotyping when you say we "lock our selves up at night and don't interact with our neighbors". Especially since I can direct you to the Rantidote section of this very board and to several threads involving "neighbors" of some kind. If that's the kind of interaction some get with their neighbors, who can blame them for not interacting?

And is this a straw man or a red herring (I always get them confused) or circular logic or something like that: "I do not think it is a coincidence that one of the homeschooling families I know also lives in a gated community."

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. Some here, who DON'T homeschool, live in gated communities.



Wow. Just wow. I am tempted to say that I worry for your kids if that is the level or your reading comprehension. But I won't. What I said is that homeschooling was a symptom, not a cause, of the decreased interest interactions in communities. I was not talking about you. I was talking about a phenomenon.

And the people who live in the gated community that I know (the only ones, actually) and home school do both for the same reason: they don't want their family exposed to the big bad world.

I also disagree that anyone could homeschool. you missed the nuance of people who didn't have the temperment to do so. I should have added people who didn't have the education.



quote:
I live in a manufactured home, does that make me an "inbred redneck with 50 broken down cars in my yard"?

Sterotyping. That is all you did, TG, nothing but stereotype.

~~Toni

Sorry, I was eating the remainder of my halloween candy so I didn't have room for all the words you put in my mouth.

If you knew anything about me, other than the fact that I disapprove of homeschooling, you would know that that would be the last stereotype I would invoke. I don't deal in stereotypes, LMS. I was simply stating what my objections were. I was not judging you or maligning your character. I was simply stating my objections.

Knee-jerking. That's all you did, LMS. Knee jerking.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by MaxKaladin:
As an adult, I've found that the socialization you get in school is rather specific to the school experience and isn't all that useful in dealing with the adult world.

True. It's quite common for adults to ridicule another adult's behavior with the admonition that "This isn't high school" or "Save it for the playground"...implying that schoolkids don't generally develop social skills that are considered vital for the adult working world. When I think of children "socializing" in public school, I only think of gossip, bullying, teasing, and cliques that exclude others. When I think of adults socializing, I picture a bunch of people at a party, getting along despite (or due to) a diversity of interests. Expecting kids to learn socialization skills from other kids is often akin to the blind leading the blind.

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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vanilla
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:
Point for point, as best I can:

1: Umm, no. It is available to everyone, in all races, creeds, religions and monetary value. I know many Single parents who work successfully and homeschool succesfully. I agree with the aspect that it might not be available to the poorer of our Nation, but truly one can homeschool for virtually nothing these days. It isn't available to **only** the rich.

Availability to everyone is not the same as the ability to participate.

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I swear, it was funnier in my head.
Yeah, I used to be pink. vanilla_pink.

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Lady Moon Shadows
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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"What I said is that homeschooling was a symptom, not a cause, of the decreased interest interactions in communities."

And again, you are still not quite right. If anything, Civically minded people have increased in numbers (doesn't matter what side of the political fence they sit on), in large numbers.

I don't know just how large your homeschooling community is, but I do know this: Ours is large enough that not only do we have 2 full "headquarters" (political) run by homeschoolers (and friends/family of them), but we also have a group of homeschoolers (around 100 of us) that have sponsored a highway for cleanup, sponsored a 75-bed facility for the holidays (all of them), we've had several of our graduates who have done internships with the local political figure...

I really could go on, but won't. I just don't get how you feel there is some kind of "decrease" in community when that's all we are about. There is no "phenom" to speak of, we really do have this much interest and interaction with the community.

Yes, I know there are bad seeds everywhere and yes, I know there is a set of homeschoolers around the country who fulfill every stereotype about us. I am not that delusional to think they don't exist. Nor am I that delusional to think it is for everyone.

But anyone CAN do it. It is just a matter of the how's, why's, when's and so on.

Now, let's talk about the stereotype. The Old Homeschool House embodies the "religious/lock your kids up/everyone SHOULD do it" type of homeschooler. If you read their magazine (worldwide), you would probably gag at the amount of "perfectness" in it (I know I do). However, set that aside for a moment and try to read some of the articles. Even those fanatics particpate in some type of "community" that is outside their own.


"If you knew anything about me, other than the fact that I disapprove of homeschooling, you would know that that would be the last stereotype I would invoke. I don't deal in stereotypes, LMS. I was simply stating what my objections were. I was not judging you or maligning your character. I was simply stating my objections."

Then I apologize. I generally don't do stereotypes either, but realize that unfortunately, my "group" of people have some serious ones going for/against us.

But in stating your objections, I am simply stating that to object to homeschooling for a reason(s) OTHER than what you mentioned--I have no problem with. But the reasons you and others listed (top among them is socialization), are true stereotypes that are simply false.

Even the "stereotypical" homeschooler socializes. They have to go shopping at some point in their day. [Smile]

~~Toni

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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride!

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Moon Shadows:

Even the "stereotypical" homeschooler socializes. They have to go shopping at some point in their day.

Well, no, they don't. Not really. Sometimes the father does the shopping, keeping the wifey safe at home and out of the clutches of a mad, mad world. Or they wifey is so cowed she never speaks to anyone at the store.

You have no idea, obviously, of the kind of isolation inflicted upon the women and children who homeschooled in the fundie community. For a primary example, take a look at Andrea Yeates. That's the kind of environment I'm speaking about.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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