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Author Topic: Abuse of the harrassment claim
DemonWolf
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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:

If you say "good morning young lady" to someone in your workplace do you also say "good morning young man/gentleman"? I really really cannot imagine that anyone does this.

I, personally, would not say "young lady" unless I was admonishing my daughter. I suppose I might use in in an instruction such as "please follow the young lady through that door," but I very well might say "Young man/gentleman" in the same context.

I agree that "young lady" is condecending.

quote:

So why are women who object to being condescended to in this manner being told that they are taking offense where none was meant, that they are "easily offended"?

For the record, I am not calling anyone "easily offended." I simply want to understand the concept of why some take exception (perhaps exception is a better word than offence?) to certain words when the equivelant, in the same context, is not offensive. If I can understand that, I can avoid making similar mistakes.

I cannot tell you not to be offended, but I can try to understand why something is seen as offensive.

for example, there are some here who object to "girls," but I would not see a problem with walking into a room of all women and saying, "hello, girls" just as I would not see the problem with walking into a room of all men and saying, "hello boys/guys."

Some have said that they see it as condecending, but I honestly want to know how is "hello, girls" less approprate than "hello, boys."

quote:

I strongly suspect that were a man to be condescended to in this manner he would not be giggling coyly because "gee I must look younger than I thought".

I strongly suspect you are correct, but my question was originally how the word "lady" could be offensive. so far, the biggest problem seems to be the adjective, "young," which does not answer my question becasue it is the adjective which is offinsive. I could add many adjectives to make any noun offenvie - Fat guy, ugly dude, old man. In none of those cases if the offensive word the noun, it is the adjecive prior to the noun.

If we remove the adjective we now have "hello, lady," which is not really proper, but rates near "hello, buddy, pal, dude." How is "hello, lady," more offensive than "hello, dude?"

Again, I am asking to gain knowledge, I am not being snarky.

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Johnny Slick
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Personally, I can't use "lady" because when I do I can't help but stay on the "l" a bit too long and get a kind of sing-songy Molly Shannon-type voice. Or it brings to mind Jerry Lewis, neither of which are terribly conducive to a serious work environment. It's such a corny word. FWIW, I don't refer to my male cow-orkers as "gentlemen" either.

And yeah, what was said about the use of the word "boy" having racial implications. Those people who defend the use of the word "girl" because you call your male cow-orkers "boy"... call a black man that and see how far it gets you.

FWIW I work at a very diverse and very corporate job. The last place that I worked at was not diverse at all (everybody was white unless you count the people of Jewish descent who worked on the Michael Medved show, and in Seattle Jews are essentially white) and very, very informal, even after they moved the station that brought the strippers in every week due to a sexual harassment claim (yes, true story). Anyway, it was a surprisingly rough transition. At the radio station you could just say whatever was on your mind and not really worry about the company you were with. Where I work now, it's the opposite: you don't say anything you wouldn't say in a three-piece suit because it's not conducive to the work environment. All in all, I think I prefer the latter. I have plenty of time to craft mean-spirited and nasty humor on the Interwebs.

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Gibbie
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Johnny writes parenthetically:
quote:
(everybody was white unless you count the people of Jewish descent who worked on the Michael Medved show, and in Seattle Jews are essentially white)
And all those with eastern European backgrounds are what, blue?

Gibbie

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:

If you don't like "girl", fine, but please give us some more pleasing alternatives. The ones listed so far... woman, lady, person, etc, all sound more insulting than "girl" to me, for different reasons. YMMV, of course, but I think it's been sufficiently proven in this thread that it's not just where I live.


Yeah, and a lot of people cringed at the word penis for a long time. Adult females are women. Use it in every case where if the sex was different you would automatically say men. After you do that a while, it will sound normal just like people don't choke when they say the word penis anymore.

quote:
You may have a point there, and I promise I will ponder it further. But I really don't think it's the same situation. All my bosses are women, all my bosses in my last job were women, my company is 90% female... I'd say women are doing pretty good in my neck of the woods, at least.

Your bosses are women, not girls. You didn't choke saying women in that sentence. Didn't sound insulting or harsh or anything, did it? Sounded perfectly natural. Because it is.

quote:
I've made a lot of posts in this thread, so I might have forgotton one of them, but please show me where I suggested it was okay to use "girl" in a boss-to-worker situation. Even I feel that one's inappropriate. I'm talking about casual conversation, I've been talking about casual conversation, and I just don't see how casual conversation is going to overturn the feminist movement.

If you think the only time in a business situation that "girl" is inappropriate, you only have it half right. Calling women "girls" is wrong in virtually any business situtation.

quote:
On a more personal note (and if it's too personal for you, feel free to answer by private message) but am I making you angry, Sarah?

Nah, not even close. It's interesting. But it does upset me to see the backsliding that seems to have occurred in the women's equality movement.

quote:
You should know that I have no stock in this discussion, I simply enjoy sharing my views, right or wrong. It's like debating philosophy, and if it wasn't fun I'd go do something else. I understand why you take this issue more seriously than I do: You feel women might lose the status for which they have fought, you personally don't want to be labelled a "girl", etc. But some of your posts seem a bit angry.

Moi??? If I were a man would you say that? Am I cute when I'm angry?? Does it make my eyes sparkle. [lol]

quote:
Just because I disgree doesn't mean I think you're wrong; I'm just more optimistic about the future. I wish women were further along right now - I'd feel a little better if we had more women in places of power - but as it stands I don't forsee a lot of backsliding.
Well, come on.....I'm not wrong so it's good you feel that way. Note again you used the word "women", not "girls".

Note: I'm on my laptop and the battery is about to die and some fool forgot to pack the cord. Don't expect much in the way of response from me for a few hours. [fish]

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Mistletoey Chloe
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Again, what is the problem with "woman," exactly? I have asked a couple of times to no avail. Hey, remember that guy who insisted that "woman" meant "slut"? Who was that, again?

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NorthernLite
We Three Blings


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The first time I encountered this discussion concerning calling co-workers “girls” was when I was in my late teens and attending my future ex MIL’s graduation from a business college. The owner / manager of the college delivered a speech in which she urged the graduates to never allow this name to be applied to them in a business situation. She explained that it was demeaning and that they would never be promoted to higher positions of management if they allowed others to treat them as inferiors.

I had never given it any thought before that time but I could see her point and agreed with it. So, I found it rather amusing, when a few weeks later she showed up at the building supply store where I worked and, pointing at one of the delivery drivers, asked if the manager would see that one of the “boys” would deliver her supplies that afternoon. The driver she singled out was a part time worker in his early forties. During the rest of the week he worked in his capacity as a captain with the city fire department.

As for my present co-workers, when referring to them in a business situation I call them either by their names or position. i.e. “You want to talk to Debe. She’s the person in charge of traffic.”

What did surprise me in this discussion was there being a negative connotation to the word “lady / ladies”. I can only assume that this is regional. I often use this term, along with “gentleman / gentlemen”, when referring to someone in the third person or when addressing a group of people. i.e. “This gentleman will help you find what you need.” or “Do you ladies mind if I play through.” I was taught that this was the polite way to refer to people. If this form of address is frowned upon in the US then I shall have to be a little more careful when I am on vacation next winter.

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Northern Lite Tempura Batter:
What did surprise me in this discussion was there being a negative connotation to the word “lady / ladies”. I can only assume that this is regional. I often use this term, along with “gentleman / gentlemen”, when referring to someone in the third person or when addressing a group of people. i.e. “This gentleman will help you find what you need.” or “Do you ladies mind if I play through.” I was taught that this was the polite way to refer to people. If this form of address is frowned upon in the US then I shall have to be a little more careful when I am on vacation next winter.

I was raised to say ladies & gentlemen in the same context that you were. The negative that I see in the use of these terms is only when they are used in a condescending way.

I was also raised to say sir or ma'am to older people. But I can recall when a British friend of my mother's got very angry with me when I said "yes ma'am" to her on some occasion or another. Apparently this can be taken for mockery on the part of some. I had no idea!

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Cervus
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I think the problem many of us have with the word "lady" (especially if we were raised in the American South) is that it depicts a woman who always uses proper decorum, who dresses and speaks in a very prim and proper way, never gets dirty, never speaks her mind or shows anger, never sweats (horses sweat, gentlemen perspire, ladies glow!), and, (the caricature in my mind) never leaves the house without her gloves, hat, and matching purse. In my mind a "lady" is one who attends debutante balls and cotillions. She is always calm, mild-mannered, and submissive to authority. She only sits with her ankles crossed and would never speak of sex.

Girls like me, whose mothers wanted them to become "ladies", were told not to run around and play like boys, not to climb trees, not to sit with our legs spread even the slightest, not to burp, not to get dirty at all, etc. We were made to wear frilly dresses. We were not allowed to voice a dissenting opinion. We were admonished if our behavior wasn't "ladylike" (submissive to authority).

If I sat sprawled on the floor to watch TV, my mother told me to keep my legs together and sit like a lady. As a child I was made to wear dresses, but God forbid if I tried to climb a jungle gym, a tree, or crouch down on the ground while wearing a dress. Someone might see my underpants and that wasn't ladylike. If she noticed stubble on my legs when I was a teenager, she cried "Ladies in our society do not walk around with unshaven legs!" Being comfortable and natural is not ladylike.

I was taught that a lady cares very deeply about what society thinks about her, and that she must conform to those standards in order to be respected. It is because of this that I decided at a very young age I didn't give a fig about what anyone thought of me. I was going to be comfortable and be myself, not play some stupid role.

I hope that explains why some of us don't like to be called ladies. The term's not offensive to me, but it is the complete opposite of everything I am. To me it represents a societal role that I consciously refuse to play.

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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keokuk
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Again, what is the problem with "woman," exactly? I have asked a couple of times to no avail. Hey, remember that guy who insisted that "woman" meant "slut"? Who was that, again?

I wasn't the one who said that it meant slut, but I did say that even in a professional environment, I don't think I'd feel comfortable calling someone under 30 a woman. (I say this as a 22 year old.)

In any instance, it would be wrong for a boss to call someone working under him or her a girl. Likewise, I would never call someone "girl" in the second person. But I feel as though if I were to refer to someone close to my age as a woman, it would imply that I looked at her as being of an older generation, and would seem baffling if not insulting.

Although I also said that I prefer to being called "kid" or "boy" and take minor offense to being called a "man," so I don't know that I'm really the best example.

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1958Fury
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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A couple of people keep asking "What's wrong with lady/person/woman/etc", even though several people have already listed their answers. Let me elaborate on what these words mean to me. These are completely my own opinions, I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, and as alway, context is important.

Lady - When I hear "lady", I automatically think "old lady". Well, unless the speaker actually said, "young lady", but that goes without saying. Also, lady is the opposite of gentleman. "Gentleman" sounds totally archaic, and overly formal. I might expect to hear it from a server at an expensive restaurant. Or while visiting England (unless that's another stereotype I picked up from TV). Or from a circus ringmaster (which is ironic given the formal nature of the word). "Lady" does have it's place, since it implies elegance and breeding; but it's also a bit misogynist, because it implies that proper women shouldn't do "vulgar" things. However, "Lady in the Water" sounds much more artistic than "Woman" or "Girl" in the water.

Woman - Has sort of a documentary feel. "I met a nice woman at the mall today" sounds just fine... but walking into a room full of friends and saying, "Hi, women!" sounds very awkward. Again, context. And as someone mentioned earlier, while woman doesn't imply any specific age, it does sort of sound like she's older than you (at least until around age 30).

Person - Way too impersonal, no pun intended. "I'd like to introduce this person..." sounds like you've never even met them yourself. In high school, I knew a very rude girl (or a young lady, or whatever offends you least) who refused to learn my name (socializing with a nerd would have been beneath her), so she would call me, "hey you... PERSON" (in an intentionally rude voice). And the phrase "you people" is a well known offensive phrase, just ask Ross Perot.


quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
Yeah, and a lot of people cringed at the word penis for a long time. Adult females are women. Use it in every case where if the sex was different you would automatically say men. After you do that a while, it will sound normal just like people don't choke when they say the word penis anymore.



I don't say "men" any more or less than I say "women". Again, context, but for me it's usually, "That guy over there", not "that man over there."


quote:
Your bosses are women, not girls. You didn't choke saying women in that sentence. Didn't sound insulting or harsh or anything, did it? Sounded perfectly natural. Because it is.


Because they're older than me, and/or they outrank me. Besides, some of the words I'm using in this thread are for your benefit; I try not to offend people when I can easily avoid it.


quote:
Nah, not even close. It's interesting.


I'm glad you're not angry. People your age need to watch their blood pressure. *ducks*


quote:
But it does upset me to see the backsliding that seems to have occurred in the women's equality movement.


And it upsets me when people think that in order to have equality, we have to sterilize our language. Eliminating "girls" also eliminates the fun side of femininity.


quote:

Moi??? If I were a man would you say that? Am I cute when I'm angry?? Does it make my eyes sparkle. [lol]



Yes, Yes, No, and I dunno [Smile]
Heh, I can only imagine what would happen to me if I were to use the "you're cute when you're angry" line on my SO... I'm sure I'd be walking funny for at least a week.


quote:
Well, come on.....I'm not wrong so it's good you feel that way. Note again you used the word "women", not "girls".
Time will tell who is right or wrong. As far as my use of the word "women", once again it's about context, combined with fear of further offending any of youse babes [Smile]


(edited several times to wrestle with those stubborn quote brackets)

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by DemonWolf:
While Sara had a very good point about her experiences with the word, I think that is more of an example of bad parenting than evidence that the word itself has an insulting meaning, especially if used correctly in context.


Absolutely fascinating that you would immediately think "bad parenting". My parents hadn't crossed my mind when I wrote that.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
......but walking into a room full of friends and saying, "Hi, women!" sounds very awkward.


When I walk into a room of friends, I say "Hi".


quote:
quote:
Your bosses are women, not girls. You didn't choke saying women in that sentence. Didn't sound insulting or harsh or anything, did it? Sounded perfectly natural. Because it is.


Because they're older than me, and/or they outrank me. Besides, some of the words I'm using in this thread are for your benefit; I try not to offend people when I can easily avoid it.


C'mon, you'd never say "My bosses are girls."

quote:
I'm glad you're not angry. People your age need to watch their blood pressure. *ducks*

I'll put my blood pressure up against that of any of you young whippersnappers anyday.

quote:
And it upsets me when people think that in order to have equality, we have to sterilize our language. Eliminating "girls" also eliminates the fun side of femininity.

Maybe you need to more closely examine what it means to be a woman because adult females are women, not girls.

quote:
Time will tell who is right or wrong. As far as my use of the word "women", once again it's about context, combined with fear of further offending any of youse babes [Smile]
"Youse"? "Youse"???? Mocking Pennsylvanians?

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Cervus
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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
And it upsets me when people think that in order to have equality, we have to sterilize our language. Eliminating "girls" also eliminates the fun side of femininity.

Maybe you need to more closely examine what it means to be a woman because adult females are women, not girls.

What do you think of adult women who don't mind being referred to as a girl?

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Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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1958Fury
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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:

C'mon, you'd never say "My bosses are girls."

Well, okay.


quote:

Maybe you need to more closely examine what it means to be a woman because adult females are women, not girls.

Technically, scientifically, and literally, yes. And wouldn't language be exciting if we used the the technical terms for everything. And why stop there? Let's eliminate colorful words altogether, and all speak exactly alike, with no variations allowed for culture, locale, or age. Wouldn't that be double plus good?

quote:
"Youse"? "Youse"???? Mocking Pennsylvanians?
Is "youse" a PA term? Had no idea... I've always thought of it as simply an "uncouth stereotypical construction-worker" type of thing. Neat [Smile]

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus nippon:
What do you think of adult women who don't mind being referred to as a girl?

I think they ought to learn to respect themselves.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Cervus
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Intersting answer. I think that you ought to learn to respect others.

We have had this conversation before. Not everyone follows your brand of feminism. My generation does not "owe" anything to you. Nor do you get to decide what terms are appropriate for everyone to use. If I choose to refer to myself as a girl, or to another female as a girl, it does not reflect on our maturity, self-respect, or our role in feminism (if any). As I've repeatedly stated, "girl" can be used disparagingly, or it can simply be a neutral term for a female. I won't refer to someone as a girl if they ask me not to, but don't tell me that I am disrespecting myself by choosing to use the term. That's venturing into the territory of ridiculousness.

Quite frankly, being told that I shouldn't refer to myself as a girl just makes me want to do it more. So there. [Razz]

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Johnny Slick
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Gibbie:
Johnny writes parenthetically:
quote:
(everybody was white unless you count the people of Jewish descent who worked on the Michael Medved show, and in Seattle Jews are essentially white)
And all those with eastern European backgrounds are what, blue?

Gibbie

If by Eastern European you mean "Russian", that's a brand new ethnic subclass in the city. If you mean "Czech" or "Romanian" or whatever else, I'd probably have to say "white". In the way I mean it, skin color is much more cultural than it is pigmentational. There are so few Jews in Seattle that there's virtually no Jewish subcommunity and that plus the fact that there's never been a large enough Jewish population to cause any kind of anti-Semitic backlash in the area means that it's often hard to tell a Jewish person apart from someone of direct Anglo-Saxon descent unless they tell you. I'm not saying that Judaism in other parts of the country isn't a definable minority or that Seattle is a panacaea of racial tolerance (we have our own problems, thank you very much), I'm just saying what the general vibe is out here.

The cultural bit is also, by the way, why I don't think of Dirk Nowitzki as a white basketball player. But that's another story for another time.

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus nippon:
Intersting answer. I think that you ought to learn to respect others.


I respect people who earn my respect.

quote:
We have had this conversation before. Not everyone follows your brand of feminism. My generation does not "owe" anything to you. Nor do you get to decide what terms are appropriate for everyone to use. If I choose to refer to myself as a girl, or to another female as a girl, it does not reflect on our maturity, self-respect, or our role in feminism (if any). As I've repeatedly stated, "girl" can be used disparagingly, or it can simply be a neutral term for a female. I won't refer to someone as a girl if they ask me not to, but don't tell me that I am disrespecting myself by choosing to use the term. That's venturing into the territory of ridiculousness.

You seem to be looking for a confrontation considering I have posted that I essentially agree with your position on this.

quote:
Quite frankly, being told that I shouldn't refer to myself as a girl just makes me want to do it more. So there. [Razz]
Well, there ya go. Reacting childishly like that is a good indication that you still haven't fully transitioned into being a full grown adult woman but I have no doubt you will some day. Until then, "girl" works for you.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus nippon:
Intersting answer. I think that you ought to learn to respect others.

We have had this conversation before. Not everyone follows your brand of feminism. My generation does not "owe" anything to you. Nor do you get to decide what terms are appropriate for everyone to use. If I choose to refer to myself as a girl, or to another female as a girl, it does not reflect on our maturity, self-respect, or our role in feminism (if any). As I've repeatedly stated, "girl" can be used disparagingly, or it can simply be a neutral term for a female. I won't refer to someone as a girl if they ask me not to, but don't tell me that I am disrespecting myself by choosing to use the term. That's venturing into the territory of ridiculousness.

Quite frankly, being told that I shouldn't refer to myself as a girl just makes me want to do it more. So there. [Razz]

[Wink] I think though Cervus that you are still closer to being a girl than not. At your age I know I too would probably have been a little surprised to have my contemporaries say "hey women let's go to the movies" -- actually, now that I think about it, I'd be surprised if women *my* age did that.

I may be wrong, but I think most of aren't really talking about the way we describe ourselves and our friends in social situations anyway. But rather are talking about the way we, as women, are referenced particularly by people that we do not know.

Calling an adult woman a girl, especially if that adult woman is many years older than yourself, is probably not something you would do Cervus. Anymore than you would likely refer to men in their 50s as boys.

What bothers me is the casual assumption some make (generic some) that any woman who doesn't feel flattered as all get out that she got called a girl is the one with the problem!

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Gibbie
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Johnny states:
quote:
If by Eastern European you mean "Russian", that's a brand new ethnic subclass in the city. If you mean "Czech" or "Romanian" or whatever else, I'd probably have to say "white". In the way I mean it, skin color is much more cultural than it is pigmentational. There are so few Jews in Seattle that there's virtually no Jewish subcommunity and that plus the fact that there's never been a large enough Jewish population to cause any kind of anti-Semitic backlash in the area means that it's often hard to tell a Jewish person apart from someone of direct Anglo-Saxon descent unless they tell you. I'm not saying that Judaism in other parts of the country isn't a definable minority or that Seattle is a panacaea of racial tolerance (we have our own problems, thank you very much), I'm just saying what the general vibe is out here.
Specifically I was thinking of my husband's family, all of whom immigrated from places such as Poland and Ukraine and Russia (his great-grandfather's naturalization papers states that he forswears allegiance to "Pete, Tsar of all the Russias" [Smile] ). If you look at the records for the great migration, you'll see that a vast majority of Jews came over from these areas of Europe and racially I don't see that they can be classified anything but white which is where my confusion came in. But I get what you're saying about there being and ethnic and cultural difference. I've got in-laws in Brooklyn I know. [Smile]

Gibbie

ETA quote because people are awake and posting again. [Smile]

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
[QUOTE][qb] "Youse"? "Youse"???? Mocking Pennsylvanians?

Is "youse" a PA term? Had no idea... I've always thought of it as simply an "uncouth stereotypical construction-worker" type of thing. Neat [Smile]
My Western PA relatives, friends and acquaintances say "Yuns," or "yins" -- it's actually somewhere between a short i sound (as in "pins") and a short u, or schwa, sound (as in "huns"). My great-aunt Myrtle actually wrote it in her letters, and she spelled it "you'uns." It's equivalent to the southern "y'all."

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
"Youse"? "Youse"???? Mocking Pennsylvanians?

Is "youse" a PA term? Had no idea... I've always thought of it as simply an "uncouth stereotypical construction-worker" type of thing. Neat [Smile]
My Western PA relatives, friends and acquaintances say "Yuns," or "yins" -- it's actually somewhere between a short i sound (as in "pins") and a short u, or schwa, sound (as in "huns"). My great-aunt Myrtle actually wrote it in her letters, and she spelled it "you'uns." It's equivalent to the southern "y'all."
I really should learn to qualify the difference between Eastern PA and Western PA, or as we like to call it, the Mid West. [Big Grin]

I believe the places were "youse" or "yous" is common are Eastern PA, and parts of NJ and NY. When I hear "yous" I think of a gum-chewing diner waitresses saying "What do yous want today?"

I'd like to add that it isn't a word I have ever used.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
I really should learn to qualify the difference between Eastern PA and Western PA, or as we like to call it, the Mid West. [Big Grin]

They are two very different places, but Western PA is, IMO, more like West Virginia or Appalachian Ohio than it is non-Appalachian-Ohio, Indiana, etc.

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Gibbie
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Sara quips:
quote:
I'd like to add that it isn't a word I have ever used.
Hey! Don't be dissing yous! My philly born husband says it and he's never been a diner waitress. [Big Grin] Though since we've lived in the midwest (and very near Kentucky) he's picking up y'all. Living with a native Virginian has helped that alot too. [Smile]

Gibbie

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Sara at home
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:blush: I do, from time to time, use variations of "y'all" Picked that up from various Southerners I've known, including Hubby#1 and all the ones living in Alaska. It has a much softer sound that "yous" which always seemed to grate.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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1958Fury
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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
Well, there ya go. Reacting childishly like that is a good indication that you still haven't fully transitioned into being a full grown adult woman but I have no doubt you will some day. Until then, "girl" works for you.

And that may be why I sometimes think you're angry - when someone else has a valid opinion, you go on the offensive. To me, that's childish. But to each her own.

I've always thought that feminism was wanting to share the same rights as men. Including being called what you like to be called, without fear of what the word really means. Men just don't get so hung up on this crap. Sure, if you call a man "boy" to his face, in the wrong context, you might lose a few teeth. But if in the spirit of fun, a guy says, "Come on, boys!" or something similar, it doesn't result in a thread on Snopes.

Okay, maybe that's because men are already in power, and don't fear they have anything to lose. Or maybe it's because men are simply incapable of thinking that deeply. But I'm more inclined to think that it's because men are secure enough in their own maturity (or less concerned about being considered immature) that they aren't threatened by a few simple words.

Before I'm accused of sexism here, I'm not really comparing men to women, so much as I'm comparing "the average guy" to "the militant feminist". And I'm aware that I'm making sweeping generalities.

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Cervus
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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
I may be wrong, but I think most of aren't really talking about the way we describe ourselves and our friends in social situations anyway. But rather are talking about the way we, as women, are referenced particularly by people that we do not know.

In that case, I agree, but Sara did not distinguish between the situations. She made a blanket statement about the term girls being applied to all women, even those who self-apply it.

quote:
Calling an adult woman a girl, especially if that adult woman is many years older than yourself, is probably not something you would do Cervus. Anymore than you would likely refer to men in their 50s as boys.
You're correct, and I explained this in an earlier post. It seems most people of my generation (or at least the ones I encounter) use the terms girl/guy to casually refer to someone our age. I also stated that I would not refer to someone older than me as a girl or boy; that would seem silly.

quote:
Originally posted by Sara at Home:
You seem to be looking for a confrontation considering I have posted that I essentially agree with your position on this.

Blame it on those womanly hormones. [Razz]


quote:
quote:
Quite frankly, being told that I shouldn't refer to myself as a girl just makes me want to do it more. So there. [Razz]
Well, there ya go. Reacting childishly like that is a good indication that you still haven't fully transitioned into being a full grown adult woman but I have no doubt you will some day. Until then, "girl" works for you.
I don't know if you're being serious, or if you realized I was making a joke, but the condescending attitude isn't appreciated.

When I transition into a "full grown adult woman", do I have to give up the clitoral orgasms? Because if I do, I'll prefer to stay a girl, thanks.

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Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
But if in the spirit of fun, a guy says, "Come on, boys!" or something similar, it doesn't result in a thread on Snopes.

This thread is not about women using the term "girl" with the friends in informal settings. That point has already been made mulitple times.

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Cervus
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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
This thread is not about women using the term "girl" with the friends in informal settings. That point has already been made mulitple times.

Just to point out (again), I disagreed with Sara at Home because in her dismissal of the term "girl", she did not distinguish between informal settings or those who choose to call themselves girls. It was this statement:

quote:
Maybe you need to more closely examine what it means to be a woman because adult females are women, not girls.
and

quote:
quote:

Originally posted by Cervus nippon:
What do you think of adult women who don't mind being referred to as a girl?

I think they ought to learn to respect themselves.

with which I disagreed.

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
I've always thought that feminism was wanting to share the same rights as men. Including being called what you like to be called, without fear of what the word really means. Men just don't get so hung up on this crap. Sure, if you call a man "boy" to his face, in the wrong context, you might lose a few teeth. But if in the spirit of fun, a guy says, "Come on, boys!" or something similar, it doesn't result in a thread on Snopes.

Okay, maybe that's because men are already in power, and don't fear they have anything to lose. Or maybe it's because men are simply incapable of thinking that deeply. But I'm more inclined to think that it's because men are secure enough in their own maturity (or less concerned about being considered immature) that they aren't threatened by a few simple words.

Before I'm accused of sexism here, I'm not really comparing men to women, so much as I'm comparing "the average guy" to "the militant feminist". And I'm aware that I'm making sweeping generalities.

With all due respect, I've been female for 58 years, a woman for .......33 of them. I've lived through what is feminist history for most of you. It probably does seem petty to you unless your life has been governed by the mentality that deems full grown women as "girls". You understanding about what feminism really is about is inaccurate.

And, FWIW, I was never considered to be a "miliant feminist"......whatever that is. Seems to me that the term "miltant feminist" is applied to all feminists by those who want women to be "nice" (read: passive and subservient) like they use to be........you know, like good little girls.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus nippon:
quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
I may be wrong, but I think most of aren't really talking about the way we describe ourselves and our friends in social situations anyway. But rather are talking about the way we, as women, are referenced particularly by people that we do not know.

In that case, I agree, but Sara did not distinguish between the situations. She made a blanket statement about the term girls being applied to all women, even those who self-apply it.
What? Agreeing with you when you typed it all out isn't good enough? You wanted me to repeat what you said?

quote:
When I transition into a "full grown adult woman", do I have to give up the clitoral orgasms? Because if I do, I'll prefer to stay a girl, thanks.

WTF?

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus nippon:
quote:

What do you think of adult women who don't mind being referred to as a girl?

quote:
Originally posted by Sara
I think they ought to learn to respect themselves.


with which I disagreed.
You don't think women should respect themselves?

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus nippon:
When I transition into a "full grown adult woman", do I have to give up the clitoral orgasms? Because if I do, I'll prefer to stay a girl, thanks.

No feminist ever suggested that clitoral orgasms were a sign of immaturity. Some male doctors did. They probably called their employees girls, too.

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Cervus
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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
When I transition into a "full grown adult woman", do I have to give up the clitoral orgasms? Because if I do, I'll prefer to stay a girl, thanks.

WTF?

That was a joke. It references Freud.

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Christie
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quote:
Originally posted by 1958Fury:
But I'm more inclined to think that it's because men are secure enough in their own maturity (or less concerned about being considered immature) that they aren't threatened by a few simple words.

You really are somewhat anxious to start a fight aren't you?

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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