Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by abigsmurf:
quote:Originally posted by Sara at home: when?
for what bit? the de-masculinisation of the language?
No, a simple explanation of at what point in time "guys" was used or was meant to be as an all inclusive term for both sexes, as you indicated when you said "guys has always been meant for both sexes." Define "always".
ETA: Hadn't noticed the link.....thought it was part of you sig. I'm going to read it now, maybe the answer it there.
2ETA: I'm back. The word "guys" does not appear in that article.
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Thank you. I see from that Wikipedia article that I'm correct.
quote: In an example of semantic progression, Guy Fawkes' name is also the origin of the word "guy" in the English language, particularly in American spoken English. The burning on 5th November of an effigy of Fawkes, known as a "guy", led to the use of the word "guy" as a term for "a person of grotesque appearance," according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Over time, the word evolved to become a general reference for a man, as in "some guy called for you." In the 20th century, under the influence of American popular culture, "guy" gradually replaced "fellow," "bloke," "chap" and other such words in many English-speaking countries. In some dialects "you guys" has become the second person plural.
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I do hear "guys" used on women and/or mixed groups now and then, but I don't think it's taking over the "guys & girls" standard.
Personally I would love more one-syllable unisex words, it would make things a lot easier. I run a persistent world for a computer game, and I get to know my players fairly well... but I never can keep track of their genders. With screen names like "Toaster424" and "PenguinKiller23", and most of them playing characters of both genders, I just don't think of them in terms of male and female.
So when I'm discussing a rude player with the other admins, I never know which pronouns to use. Why must so much of our language be divided that way? We don't have different versions of "he" and "she" for different races, religions, or hair colors, so why genders?
...probably because at the time language was forming, women and men just didn't do the same things. Back then you were less likely to be discussing someone who might be male or female, and being chauvinists, they didn't mind using "he" in all cases. Well, I mind, and I'd like more word options.
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Boys and Girls. Men and Women. Guys and......Gals? Not since the 50's at the latest. Dolls? I don't think so. I use to hear a lot of "guys and girls" but when we stopped calling women "girls" and didn't even feel comfortable calling young women "girls", I began to see -- and use -- a switch to "guys" for both genders. Sort of like Star Trek's use of the word "Sir" for male and female officers with the claim of language evolution. Though "guy" has a male specific origin, it isn't really a word that means "male". Seems to have come from the Old French for "to guide". Works for females as well as males.
I like "guys" for both sexes despite having been told that females aren't "guys" when we were kids.
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quote:Originally posted by Sara at home: Sort of like Star Trek's use of the word "Sir" for male and female officers with the claim of language evolution.
Yeah, notice how it's always the male form of the word that gets evolved into unisex. Maybe I'll write a sci-fi novel in which everyone is called "madam". I wonder if readers would buy the concept.
quote: I like "guys" for both sexes despite having been told that females aren't "guys" when we were kids.
I do too, but I don't think enough people use it quite yet. I could get away with calling a group of women "guys" in person. But if I made a post here on Snopes referring to "some guy I met", you know they'd assume it was a man.
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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Two interesting and valid points.
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quote:Originally posted by Sara at home: ... Though "guy" has a male specific origin, it isn't really a word that means "male". ...
I agree. I would say any (real or perceieved) masculinity in the word "guy" is only incidental, linked to the fact that Guy Fawkes was a man. Indeed, if you look the old definition in the aforementioned quote again:
quote: "a person[emphasis mine] of grotesque appearance"
it may have been in fact gender neutral (albeit insulting) once.
Nick
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quote:Originally posted by Sara at home: I like "guys" for both sexes despite having been told that females aren't "guys" when we were kids.
I do too, but I don't think enough people use it quite yet. I could get away with calling a group of women "guys" in person. But if I made a post here on Snopes referring to "some guy I met", you know they'd assume it was a man.
As a 34-year-old female, I have referred to a group of all-female friends my age as "guys" (ie., "Hey, guys, lets go.") often, and no one has ever blinked twice. But, yes, saying, "I met this guy..." would tend to indicate a male.
I've never been bothered by being called "girl", but no one at any work setting has ever referred to me as such, either. Maybe that would make a difference to me, I don't know.
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quote:Originally posted by Sara at home: Though "guy" has a male specific origin, it isn't really a word that means "male". Seems to have come from the Old French for "to guide". Works for females as well as males.
I like "guys" for both sexes despite having been told that females aren't "guys" when we were kids.
I find this interesting, because to me "guy" (singular) is only used to describe a male. The plural form, "guys", can be used to describe a group of males or a group of mixed gender. I suppose I've probably used it when talking to female friends, but my accent turns the plural form into "gahs".
The use of gender-neutral pronouns is also long overdue.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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I wish there was a gender neutral term for nieces & nephews. I usually end up saying 'the cousins' for lack of a better term.
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quote:Originally posted by Christie: I wish there was a gender neutral term for nieces & nephews. I usually end up saying 'the cousins' for lack of a better term.
I propose we start calling them "neicephews".
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For everyone's information, I AM NOT A GUY!!!! I am a full-fledged female, and I would appreciate being acknowledged as such. It really gripes my butt when my husband and I go into a restaurant and a cute little wanna-be prances up to the table and says "Hi, guys!" My husband's usual response is "Fine, sir," at which time the cute little wanna-be backs up and responds "But I'm not a 'sir'." To which my husband replies, "Neither is my wife." I have tried telling people that "your girlfriend is not a "guy", your mother is not a "guy", your grandmother/sister/aunt/niece/wife is not a "guy" and neither am I." Somehow it doesn't seem to work. I believe that it is a generational thing, where anyone under 35 (unless reared in the South is taught from birth to say "yes ma'am" and "no sir") thinks that casual greetings and conversation don't require any manners or consideration. I equate it to my 40-year-old doctor (young enough to be my son) calling me by my first name. I tried calling him "Glenn", and he was very offended--reminded me that he is a DOCTOR. I then told him that until such time as I ask him to call me by my first name, I am MRS. xxxxxx.
So there!!!!
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quote:...a cute little wanna-be prances up to the table...
"Little wanna-be" what?
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by chiefs_lady: For everyone's information, I AM NOT A GUY!!!!
I could see your point if 'guy' was etymologically masculine but I don't think it is.
I've called women 'guys' as long as i've been using the term to describe blokes and i've never heard a word of complaint.
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posted
Wow. Who knew I was committing so a major faux pas!
I've said "guys" for a large group of people as long as I can remember. I always figured it was less obnoxious than they typical Burgh word of 'yinz'.
Oh well. I'm not gonna stop saying it.
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I've always called my kids and their friends "guys" as in "ok guys CLEAN this up now" or "if you guys want to come with us, better shake a leg" type thing.
1958Fury - I like neicephews, has a Pepe Lephew ring to it, that but I just don't see it catching on
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by chiefs_lady: For everyone's information, I AM NOT A GUY!!!!
I could see your point if 'guy' was etymologically masculine but I don't think it is.
I do. "Guy" is as historically masculine as the words it originally began to replace: fellow, bloke, chap, etc. As someone pointed out earlier, it still is exclusively masculine when singular. Only recently has it begun to be used as a neutral second person plural, and then only in some dialects, though I suspect that has changed drastically even in the last 10 years.
Which is why I think Chiefs Lady is fighting a losing battle. Her little bouncy "wanna-be" is not intending to be rude, nor is she questioning the gender preferences of her customers. To get one's hair all out of place over language evolution is sometimes understandable (I personally hate the use of "pimped" as a fashion statement), but it's a waste of time that sadly only makes the insister appear overly sensitive and cross.
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill:
quote:Originally posted by Jay Tea: I could see your point if 'guy' was etymologically masculine but I don't think it is.
I do. "Guy" is as historically masculine as the words it originally began to replace: fellow, bloke, chap, etc. As someone pointed out earlier, it still is exclusively masculine when singular. Only recently has it begun to be used as a neutral second person plural, and then only in some dialects, though I suspect that has changed drastically even in the last 10 years.
I don't.
According to Answer.com , guy is etymologically gender neutral. Apparently Guy Fawkes was given a name meaning "guide".
quote: [Partly from Middle English gie, guide, guy (from Old French guie, from guier, to guide) and partly from Low German; akin to Dutch gei, brail.]
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quote:Originally posted by Sara at home: Though "guy" has a male specific origin, it isn't really a word that means "male". Seems to have come from the Old French for "to guide". Works for females as well as males.
I like "guys" for both sexes despite having been told that females aren't "guys" when we were kids.
I find this interesting, because to me "guy" (singular) is only used to describe a male. The plural form, "guys", can be used to describe a group of males or a group of mixed gender. I suppose I've probably used it when talking to female friends, but my accent turns the plural form into "gahs".
The use of gender-neutral pronouns is also long overdue.
In Spanish, when referring to a group of males, you use the masucline pronoun. When referring to a group of females, you use the feminine pronoun. When referring to a mixed group, you use the masculine.
Guys seems to almost follow that rule. "Hey guys, time to go" seems very natural to apply to a group of mixed (or even all female - which would make it different from Spanish) gender. But singular "guy" I would always assume to be a male.
It would be very handy if the singular of "guy" could be gender neutral. I agree that we need more gender neutral pronouns. In religion, too, it becomes difficult, because if you don't happen to believe that (whatever form of God you believe in) has a gender - which I happen to think God is genderless - then you are reduced to calling God "it" which just REALLY sounds awful.
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This is why I always address a group as "peeps" and individuals as "dawg". Oh, yes, even in the workplace. I work for a Catholic NPO and the nuns all love being called "dawg".
-------------------- "You better respect the Rap or the Rap won't respect you." Ledatru Posts: 1141 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by chiefs_lady: For everyone's information, I AM NOT A GUY!!!!
I could see your point if 'guy' was etymologically masculine but I don't think it is.
I do. "Guy" is as historically masculine as the words it originally began to replace: fellow, bloke, chap, etc. As someone pointed out earlier, it still is exclusively masculine when singular. Only recently has it begun to be used as a neutral second person plural, and then only in some dialects, though I suspect that has changed drastically even in the last 10 years.
You'll have to come up with some historical links before I shift on this one. 'only recently' is just wishy washy etymologically speaking - my old man can confirm it's neutrality in a forces context going back 60 years.
Also, since when has 'fellow' been masculine? It isn't.
In use I agree we're talking about a masculine bias but it is 'not' appropriate to resent a gender neutral use - it's more than a recent shift we're talking about i'm sure...
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quote:Originally posted by Jay Tea: Also, since when has 'fellow' been masculine? It isn't.
Maybe this is yet another difference between usage in the UK as opposed to Canada/US? The only time I've ever heard fellow used other than as a way to refer to a male is when I hear people talk about fellows of a college - usually Oxford or of course in terms of a partnership of some kind such as "Fellowship of the Ring". But I've never heard a woman or girl called a fellow (or as we say in these parts, fella) unless it was done in a joking way.
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People sing "For she's a jolly good fellow" about a woman, as they would sing "For he's a . . . " about a man.
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Rhiandmoi
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Whenever we discuss what women ought to be called, I picture a Kid's in the Hall sketch - I always call my bitches ho-mas.
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quote:Originally posted by Jay Tea: You'll have to come up with some historical links before I shift on this one. 'only recently' is just wishy washy etymologically speaking - my old man can confirm it's neutrality in a forces context going back 60 years.
Yes, I should have been more clear. The Wikipedia article Sara quoted talked about 'guy' being used as second person plural in the 20th century. Compaired to its first appearance meaning 'guide' from the 1300's, I thought it reasonably safe to call the usage we are referring to "recent."
My reference to its spread across dialects over "the last decade" was a personal one. I remember being mocked by female friends from the southern and midwestern US for greeting them with a "hi guys!" They all swore only Californians did that. However, when I've gone to visit them recently, I've noticed that both they and their friends have all adopted the term as a neutral one. Of course I mock them. 13 years isn't too long for a vendetta, is it?
quote:Also, since when has 'fellow' been masculine? It isn't.
That depends on its usage, my dear fellow Snopester.
quote:fellow |?fel?| noun
1 informal a man or boy : he was an extremely obliging fellow. a boyfriend or lover : has she got a fellow?
2 (usu. fellows) a person in the same position, involved in the same activity, or otherwise associated with another : he was learning with a rapidity unique among his fellows.
3 a member of a learned society : he was elected a fellow of the Geological Society. (also research fellow) a student or graduate receiving a fellowship for a period of research. Brit. an incorporated senior member of a college : a tutorial fellow. a member of the governing body in some universities.
The only case where "fellow" could be replaced with "guy" is in the first definition, and no native speaker of any dialect that I know of would say "look at that fellow/guy over there" and be refering to a woman.
quote:In use I agree we're talking about a masculine bias but it is 'not' appropriate to resent a gender neutral use...
I absolutely agree.
quote:Originally posted by Sara at home: According to Answer.com , guy is etymologically gender neutral. Apparently Guy Fawkes was given a name meaning "guide".
quote: [Partly from Middle English gie, guide, guy (from Old French guie, from guier, to guide) and partly from Low German; akin to Dutch gei, brail.]
"Guide" is indeed gender neutral in Modern English, but neither your link nor the one I found specify if it was so in Middle English. Given their social status, my guess is it was probably not a term widely used to refer to women in the medieval ages, but I could be wrong.
The bottom line is, the historical use of 'guy' has been predominantly masculine, though perhaps not exclusively so. Regardless, I agree with Jay Tea that its 20th century useage as a neutral second person plural is hardly inappropriate. Much better that "y'all" or "you'ins" anyway. *shudder*
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: Much better that "y'all" or "you'ins" anyway. *shudder*
Hey, I like "y'all". I'll admit it's a bit hickish, but we really do need a seprarate word for "you singular" and "you plural". It's so hard addressing a group sometimes, especially in a city full of redneck idiots. If I say "you" to a group of people, they all look around to see who I was looking at when I said it.
Saying things like "you guys" works, but it feels like applying a bandaid to the word when we should be taking it to the hospital. And you can't use "you people", because it has racial connotations now.
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: Much better that "y'all" or "you'ins" anyway. *shudder*
Hey, I like "y'all". I'll admit it's a bit hickish, but we really do need a seprarate word for "you singular" and "you plural". It's so hard addressing a group sometimes, especially in a city full of redneck idiots. If I say "you" to a group of people, they all look around to see who I was looking at when I said it.
Saying things like "you guys" works, but it feels like applying a bandaid to the word when we should be taking it to the hospital. And you can't use "you people", because it has racial connotations now.
What about reviving the good old English word YE?
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quote:Originally posted by Little Pink Pill: Much better that "y'all" or "you'ins" anyway. *shudder*
Hey, I like "y'all". I'll admit it's a bit hickish, but we really do need a seprarate word for "you singular" and "you plural". It's so hard addressing a group sometimes, especially in a city full of redneck idiots. If I say "you" to a group of people, they all look around to see who I was looking at when I said it.
I love "y'all." Use it all the time. Even when I was teaching college lit. Sides, it just rolls off the tongue so well.
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The other day at work I noticed that my 65 year old coworker was wearing very nice earrings. I said "Ooh, girl, those are pretty earrings." and immediately thought of this thread. I know she wasn't offended, but I wondered if this usage of "girl" could be taken offensively.
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Originally posted by candy from strangers: The other day at work I noticed that my 65 year old coworker was wearing very nice earrings. I said "Ooh, girl, those are pretty earrings." and immediately thought of this thread. I know she wasn't offended, but I wondered if this usage of "girl" could be taken offensively.
I wouldn't think so. I see that usage more as slang than anything else.
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Heh, I was at my doc's office today, and she was telling me about "a girl who came in earlier" etc etc. (The "girl" in her story was an adult, though probably younger than the doctor.) It sounded very natural, and before this thread I never would have noticed it. You "guys" have damaged my brain forever
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This made me think of the time we had woman from China in our cube that was still learning english. One of use was being very polite and said something like "thank you ma'am". She then sat down at her desk and open the copy of a Chines to English dictonary. She then became very upset and asked use why we thinks she runs a house of prostitution. After we got over our shock and had her calmed down. She explained that was the only definition there was in her dictonary for "ma'am or madam". After showing her several of our US diconaries, she was satified that it was a used as term of respect. She then aplogized and was a little embarased. We were just glad she did not just run off to HR with that.
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