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Author Topic: Doing business with a ???
Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I think the whole "Dutch" thing is silly, because even if the phrases originated as insults against the Dutch, I doubt that there is any significant amount of anti-Dutch sentiment of the sort implied by the phrases in the world, and I don't think there has been any for hundreds of years. In general, I think there is nothing wrong with ethnic stereotypes as jokes. The only reason we are (and should be) more sensitive to stereotypes of Jews, Blacks, etc. is because these groups have been discriminated against in the recent past and so there's the danger that people could take the stereotypes seriously. There's no such history of discrimination against the Dutch.

For what it's worth, when I was a young child in the Soviet Union, my family was not religious but we were very aware that we were ethnically Jewish. My parents taught me and my sisters to be proud of that, including by saying that Jews were better with money and so were less wasteful and more likely to get good deals and get rich. As an adult, I don't think that's an inborn trait, but ethnic Jews do seem to be better off financially on average.

If I thought I could pull it off convincingly, I would use those "Dutch" phrases and hope that I got called on it so that I could say "Lousy Dutch, I hate them so much! They killed Santa Claus!"

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Fools! You've over-estimated me!

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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So calling it "Dutch Chocolate" is an insult? or racist?

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And now for something completely different...

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Dear Babby
Deck the Malls


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One of my friends here in Hawaii said "juice them down". I'm pretty sure she didn't know the the real word was "Jew"
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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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A previous thread about "gypped"
http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/95/t/000362/p/1.html

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Troodon:

For what it's worth, when I was a young child in the Soviet Union, my family was not religious but we were very aware that we were ethnically Jewish. My parents taught me and my sisters to be proud of that, including by saying that Jews were better with money and so were less wasteful and more likely to get good deals and get rich. As an adult, I don't think that's an inborn trait, but ethnic Jews do seem to be better off financially on average.


A possible cultural explanation for that is that during the diaspora, for much of European history, in many countries, Jews were often forbidden to own property, so they couldn't make a living from being farming or similar occupations. At the same time Christians were forbidden to engage in money lending, so you had a lot of Jewish people ended up making a living from finances.


Also when you get persecuted on a regular basis for thousands of years and don't have the safety net of a homeland, you either get very resourceful or you perish. Jewish people make up an insanely disproportionate number of professional and successful people in relation to their actual percentage of the population. IIRC, 25% of Nobel prize winners are Jewish, but the population is 1 or 2%.

So there is a stereotype about shrewdness with money, which might have some basis in truth (most stereotypes have SOME basis) but as far as Jews being stingy or "Jewing people down," well, let me tell you, I have some GREAT stories about that sort of crap that clients have tried to pull on me - and none of them were Jewish. They were most likely Baptist.

Snap "sure I'll do it for less money, which wall do you want me to leave unpainted?" dragonfly

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
So calling it "Dutch Chocolate" is an insult? or racist?

Doug, are you for real?

There's obviously a certain level of intelligence required to master a vocbulary, and you don't have it. I based this upon your statement above being 100% serious - nothing to indicate humour or jest. Either blatant ignorance, or rampant sarcasm.

Is the phrase "German salami" racist? Is it more or less racist than "Hungarian salami"? And can the average person even tell the difference.

In any case, there is a difference between using an "ethnic" (or even "religious") label on a product, and quite another to use it in offensive fashion.

For all I know, there may be some group out there that refers to inferior chocolate as "Dutch chocolate" - there are many such derisive comments in various European countries. This is pretty much on par with the way the whole world stereotypes, for example, the British, for bad food.

But it's not on the same level even as, say, "Dutch courage", or "Dutch treat" - which as someone pointed out correctly - "going Dutch" is now used to indicate a date or social occasion where you pay your own way. But the historical context was that a person would *invite* you - and still expect you to pay your own way. It implies selfishness. There are many, many ethnic slurs about the Dutch being thrifty.

The excuse that one is "ignorant" or otherwise "unknowing" that a phrase is some kind of ethnic slur (as opposed to just a "label") is permissible *once*. It would be rudeness of the highest order to continue to use an offensive phrase once you knew what it was all about.

And playing silly games like saying "is the phrase 'Dutch chocolate' racist", isn't helping anyone.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
Doug, are you for real?...And playing silly games like saying "is the phrase 'Dutch chocolate' racist", isn't helping anyone.

Yes, I am a real person. Yes, I think that "playing silly games" is a perfectly good way to show how stupid some of these arguments can get.

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And now for something completely different...

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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But Doug, using a product's country of origin as a descriptor is in a completely different realm of the language from using a certain nationality to describe something negatively. Don't you think?

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Officially Heartless

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
But Doug, using a product's country of origin as a descriptor is in a completely different realm of the language from using a certain nationality to describe something negatively. Don't you think?

I think there is WAY too much of this, "I am a victim" mentality going around. I might get called a krout (sp) or my wife might get called a wet-back, but it really is not an issue because I am not a food item and she dries herself off after she takes a shower (heck, since I sweat so much, I am usually the wet-back).

Get over these names. Some are worse than others. The common one here in the South is a problem, because the people using it are darn well aware of the significance. Some of the others mentioned (like Dutch treat) are no where near the level.

BTW, I now realize I have used the term “Dutch Uncle” to describe my, well, Dutch Uncle. That is where part of my family comes from, so I have a real Dutch Uncle (actually great-great-uncle, but close enough).

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And now for something completely different...

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
But Doug, using a product's country of origin as a descriptor is in a completely different realm of the language from using a certain nationality to describe something negatively. Don't you think?

I think there is WAY too much of this, "I am a victim" mentality going around.
So saying "that's offensive" is the same as saying "I'm a victim?" Interesting.

You may want to consider Doug, that many of these terms have always been offensive. It's just recently that those offended have been able to speak out about it without getting labled "uppity". The penalties for being uppity have been, in the past, quite severe.

You may, as was in the past, use whatever term you wish to describe someone. You cannot any longer, however, do so without having some reprecussions, social although they may be.

Usually what these complaints boil down to is someone who is too lazy to consider his/her words before they use them. Alternatively, there are some people who use them to be offensive.

But didn't you start out this thread wondering if a particular term was offensive and what you should have done in response? Are you now saying that you were "playing the victim"? or being "too PC"? If you really think that it doesn't matter, why bring this up at all?

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Aptenodytes_Forsteriis
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Maybe he's saying that offensive language isn't really that big of a deal. Insults are part of life; prejudices are part of a flawed human way of categorizing things. Neither rises to the level of evil that even a light slap does and yet our anglo-american culture seems to find the use of a racial epithet, or other group based insult to be a major wrong. Slavery was a major wrong. Jim Crow was a major wrong. Using an offensive term is not, and no amount of hand wringing will make it one.

If the term personally offends you, say something when it is used to you. By all means try to avoid such terms in your speech. But don't react to an offensive phrase with the same level of outrage as you would bring to an assault, or more serious crime.

BTW many of the 'Dutch' insults are actually targeted toward Germans. Those who coined the terms were so ignorant that they didn't even know who they were stereotyping, and Deutsch became Dutch, without even crossing the Rhine.

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'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
But Doug, using a product's country of origin as a descriptor is in a completely different realm of the language from using a certain nationality to describe something negatively. Don't you think?

I think there is WAY too much of this, "I am a victim" mentality going around. I might get called a krout (sp) or my wife might get called a wet-back, but it really is not an issue because I am not a food item and she dries herself off after she takes a shower (heck, since I sweat so much, I am usually the wet-back).

Get over these names. Some are worse than others. The common one here in the South is a problem, because the people using it are darn well aware of the significance. Some of the others mentioned (like Dutch treat) are no where near the level.

BTW, I now realize I have used the term “Dutch Uncle” to describe my, well, Dutch Uncle. That is where part of my family comes from, so I have a real Dutch Uncle (actually great-great-uncle, but close enough).

I'm so confused. So saying "I didn't want to Jew you down" is ignorant and offensive, but other racial/ ethnic slurs are not offensive and if you think so you are subscribing to the victim mentality?

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Officially Heartless

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
I'm so confused. So saying "I didn't want to Jew you down" is ignorant and offensive, but other racial/ ethnic slurs are not offensive and if you think so you are subscribing to the victim mentality?

No, it was "interesting" to hear it. I was curious how others might feel. It was not something I was "used" to hearing.

The thread then turned into a "here is my offensive phrase" which got to the ridiculous level of calling "Dutch Treat" an offensive phrase. Which, I guess should be called "German Treat" (which is also funny because that is my OTHER family). So I just made fun of it, which seemed to freak some people.

I just say lighten up. It is really no big deal. Remember, this is just a forum on the internet.

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And now for something completely different...

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
So saying "that's offensive" is the same as saying "I'm a victim?"

Just about. It gives people who are (for the most part) in the majority and doing well the ability to play victim (and get the associated hugs and such).

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And now for something completely different...

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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So if someone uses the n-word, and I say "Don't say that; it's offensive," it's because I want to play the victim and get associated hugs?

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
So saying "that's offensive" is the same as saying "I'm a victim?"

Just about. It gives people who are (for the most part) in the majority and doing well the ability to play victim (and get the associated hugs and such).
Right. OK. So, what should I do? Spray 'em with mace? Tell 'em to keep their stupid f*****' mouth shut? Punch 'em in the face?

Saying "That's offensive" gives you the ability to point out something that the speaker might have missed, and to do so in a polite manner. It has nothing to do with cuddly widdle feewings.....

Ryda "I'd rather kick 'em in the knee, but that's assault" Wong.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Tootsie Plunkette
Buy a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella


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[hijack]
"Dutch Chocolate" does not refer to the country of origin of the product, but the method of processing, invented by a Dutch man.

I didn't realize that German Chocolate (used in German Chocolate Cake) was invented by a man named German.
[/hijack]

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--Tootsie

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
I'm so confused. So saying "I didn't want to Jew you down" is ignorant and offensive, but other racial/ ethnic slurs are not offensive and if you think so you are subscribing to the victim mentality?

No, it was "interesting" to hear it. I was curious how others might feel. It was not something I was "used" to hearing.

The thread then turned into a "here is my offensive phrase" which got to the ridiculous level of calling "Dutch Treat" an offensive phrase. Which, I guess should be called "German Treat" (which is also funny because that is my OTHER family). So I just made fun of it, which seemed to freak some people.

I just say lighten up. It is really no big deal. Remember, this is just a forum on the internet.

In your OP you said it was racist and that you considered not doing business with the man who said it. Just because you don't often hear the word?

I agree that anti-semitic references are not in the same league as outdated and effectively meaningless ethnic references, but neither is describing a product that's associated with an ethnicity (like Mexican chocolate or Dutch chocolate, which apparently isn't even from Holland) in the same league as using an ethnicity as an insult in any context.

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Officially Heartless

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
So saying "that's offensive" is the same as saying "I'm a victim?"

Just about. It gives people who are (for the most part) in the majority and doing well the ability to play victim (and get the associated hugs and such).
How does a person in the majority get to play victim by saying something is offensive?


And speaking as someone not usually in the majority, how does telling you that something is offensive "playing the victim". I am telling you that what you have said is offensive. You continue doing so at your own social peril.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
But Doug, using a product's country of origin as a descriptor is in a completely different realm of the language from using a certain nationality to describe something negatively. Don't you think?

I think there is WAY too much of this, "I am a victim" mentality going around. I might get called a krout (sp) or my wife might get called a wet-back, but it really is not an issue because I am not a food item and she dries herself off after she takes a shower (heck, since I sweat so much, I am usually the wet-back).

Get over these names. Some are worse than others. The common one here in the South is a problem, because the people using it are darn well aware of the significance. Some of the others mentioned (like Dutch treat) are no where near the level.

Doug4.7, do you think the word "bigot" is offensive? Or is it just a label? Or is it okay because there are "worse" names to be called. Because I'm calling you one. I've called you one before, and I will continue to do so because, well, because you are a bigot.

Here is the definition for you if you need your memory refreshed.

bigot - n. - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I'm sure you will "get over it" because some names are "worse than others".

After offending someone with a racist, sexist, or religiously intolerant comment, it is a standard response from bigots, racists, and other intolerant people to say things like "it's just a name", or "grow a thicker skin" or "stop playing the victim". That's very nice. People here advocate being open-minded and tolerant, and you say that it's okay to hurl insults because there are some which are worse.

You keep hiding behind this veil of "liberalism" - where you keep telling us that you are, *amongst your own group*, an extremist. That you are seen as being way too "liberal"

Let me give you a definition for this word (emphasis mine):

liberal - adj. -
1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

If you are too liberal, then you would be, by definition, not bigoted enough. Your statements seem to indicate that you regret that you are not more like your "group". I'm not surprised.

Further to this, this whole concept of "among my friends I am too liberal" is rather thin. One could, for example, say "I think half the Jews should be exterminated", and then compare themselves to Hitler (who wanted, presumably, to exterminate all of the Jews). Of course, they compare favourably to Hitler - who wouldn't - but the fact remains that this is still very intolerant and bigoted person.

Let's not hear of this "peer group" of yours anymore. Not even when you go down to the laundromat and wash your white hoods together.

Did I just say that? Well, it's okay because you need to get past your "I'm a victim" mentality.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Dog Friendly
Carol of the Bills


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Sort of a hijack, but I was reminded of this by a fleeting mention earlier of the term "Indian giver". I had it explained to me long ago that although there were Native American tribes (Tlingit, maybe? Coastal California and Oregon, anyway) who engaged in gift-giving rituals that would seem bizarre to a European-type capitalist, the phrase actually originated in the US Gummint's practice of giving land to a particular Native people, only to "renegotiate" the treaty later when minerals were discovered, or when enough white farmers moved onto that land and demanded "protection" from "their" government. Such renegotiations were usually managed by worthies like George "Yellow Hair" Custer, among others.

An "Indian giver", in this context, was someone who gave something to an Indian, and then decided it was really a loan, after all. It never was pejorative against the Indians.

Anybody got anything on this?

Dog (just curious) Friendly

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"Nobody ever got stoned and beat up his old lady" -- Spence, snapdragonfly's friend

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Mr. Furious
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm the one that mentioned the term. The way I understand it (and I'm by no means an authority), Native Americans loaned the settlers various items that they needed, but the settlers thought that they were gifts. When the NAs asked for the items to be returned, the settlers were taken aback.

That explanation could easily be a UL, though.

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"He's not gonna let me in, I'm Mr. Dirty Mouth!"
- Jeffrey Coho (Craig Bierko), Boston Legal

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
you are a bigot.

No, you are wrong.

I actually find it funny that you would even THINK that I would qualify as a bigot. Obviously, your idea of a bigot is one who disagrees with you.

What is that law of forums that tells how long a thread lasts before someone uses a Hitler analogy?

You win the prize.

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And now for something completely different...

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
you are a bigot.

No, you are wrong.
Prove it.

Need I open this up to public opinion? None of us have ever met you, and we know only the persona you present here. But it is one of arrogance and intolerance. Not to mention the necessity for you to keep putting yourself into context by reminding us that you are so "liberal" in your group of friends - a group which you admit to choosing based on your own beliefs.

quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
I actually find it funny that you would even THINK that I would qualify as a bigot. Obviously, your idea of a bigot is one who disagrees with you.

Once again...

bigot - n. - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

And because I am intolerant of intolerance, that would make me a bigot, according to you, right?

quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
What is that law of forums that tells how long a thread lasts before someone uses a Hitler analogy?
You win the prize.

If you recall - and perhaps you don't because you are the one who started this thread after all - this referred to a slur against Jews. I think it's fair game to invoke that when talking about prejudice against Jews, don't you think?

Or, let me guess, they should stop playing the victim?

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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NocturnalGoddess- naughty or nice?
Carol of the Dells


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I once had a coworker stop midword (she was in the middle of "...always tried to jew-") to say "I really hate that word". It's not that she was racist, it's just that she had grown up with that as a common phraze. I suggested "con" or simply "rip you off", and she uses those now.

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"I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson

Posts: 2161 | From: Delaware | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
Prove it.

Wa? You want me to (let's say) kiss someone of another race? Would that do it?

That is another one of those, "When did you stop beating your wife?" statements. There is no way for me to prove to you I am not a bigot. I could say I have all these gay friends (or black, or hispanic, etc.) and your response would be that I was just making it up (and you already think I have no friends).
quote:
Need I open this up to public opinion?

Public opinion? Wa? Because my views differ from the high post count folks here, I am a bigot?
quote:
bigot - n. - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I get it. Because you are intolerant of my beliefs, doesn't that make you the bigot?

I understand now. Step one is to call the person you disagree with a bigot, then (since they are a bigot) you can be intolerant of their views (because it is okay to be intolerant of a bigot). Good plan.

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And now for something completely different...

Posts: 4164 | From: Alabama | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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