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Author Topic: Doing business with a ???
Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
I disagree. If nothing else, the stereotype of the Bible Belt is that they knew their religious stereotypes. It's a little far-fetched for me to think that in this day and age, and *especially* in an area known for religious intolerance, that this referred specifically to Jews and their perception of being greedy, money-oriented, and dishonest in business.

That racist and intolerant people in the "Bible Belt" may not know what "kosher" means, they likely know their stereotypes quite well.

Hey! We know what "Kosher" means! It's that special type of salt Alton Brown always uses.

--------------------
And now for something completely different...

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kirk1168
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Tea:
Jewish people being haggardly with money

Perhaps you meant "niggardly" with money?
Ah, but that's opening an entirely different can of worms, there.
I'll get it myself: [fish]

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I hate the term "Jew down." Hate it, hate it, hate it. My mother uses it. Now, my daughter's father is Jewish. She self-identifies as Jewish (Reform and Reconstructionist Jews would agree). But mother still says "Your brother Jewed him down." Drives me crazy. But she's old, and she already feels stupid because she's starting to forget things, so I let it go.

As for the OP situation, I'd let that go, too. Look at it this way: you bargained with the bigot, and you won! Enjoy spending his money.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by bufungla:
Given your description of the area, I'd wager it's because nobody there knows what a Jew *is*, outside of Bible characters. This is the part of the Bible Belt where they have "both" religions, Baptist and Methodist, right? Everything you've ever said about the area reminds me of where I grew up, and if you asked for a bagel down there, somebody would try to find you a hunting dog.

buf 'jew ready for dinner, son? [Wink]

You nailed it.
I disagree. If nothing else, the stereotype of the Bible Belt is that they knew their religious stereotypes. It's a little far-fetched for me to think that in this day and age, and *especially* in an area known for religious intolerance, that this referred specifically to Jews and their perception of being greedy, money-oriented, and dishonest in business.

That racist and intolerant people in the "Bible Belt" may not know what "kosher" means, they likely know their stereotypes quite well.

I don't claim to read someone's mind, but in the context it was used, that phrase is not used as a pleasant term, or one of familiarity.

I suspect the person using the term either knew of the stereotype (possibly by reputation) or had heard it somewhere and had it explained to him. However, Doug originally pointed out how unusual it was to hear a stereotype regarding that partular group in that part of the country, which was the part I was commenting on.

Usually protestant fundamentalists at least pay lip service to respecting and supporting Jews (read how they are treated in Chick tracts versus Catholics or Mormons, for example). This, however, is Judaism in the abstract - Jews are people from the Bible and people in Israel who are defending God's country from them Ay-rabs. They might've heard something about them bad Jews in the US who are trying to teach our kids to smoke dope and marry gays via Hollywood movies, but were they to meet an actual Jewish person from the US, they'd either judge them on their own merits or be too busy hating them for being a Yankee to bother with the religious angle [Wink]

--------------------
"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by MaxGunnar:
Someone told me that "Hip Hip Hurrah" is also anti semetic as well, anybody know for sure?

According to my stepdad (who is practically a rabbi, and a very intelligent and thoughtful man, whose information is very good) it probably is.
here's a link to an explanation.

And, for what it's worth, he and my mom are both highly insulted by the expression "jew down." They are reform Jews, he by birth, my mom converted. I used to use it without thinking - because my dad used it and I just grew up hearing it - but after my mom remarried the nice Jewish boy that is my stepdad, [Wink] I became aware of just how insulting it is and now I just say "haggle."

I do not think it is overly sensitive to be offended by that stereotype. The characterization of Jews as shifty, dishonest, miserly businesspeople is one of the stereotypes that has been widely propogated by antisemetics throughout history, including but not limited to the Nazis.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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We had a discussion a few years back about cotton picking (cotton pickin' hands) and my take is that it's not racial in origin. It was, of course, a jab at people that pick cotton, specifically the condition of their hands. Hands you really wouldn't want handling your things or maybe even touching you, but the term was used to describe the hands of cotton pickers, regardless of color. Cotton is full of very sharp hulls. So, anyone picking cotton by hand, particularly without protection, as was common, had cut and bloodied hands. Hands of a cotton picker is what that term is all about.

ETA: From wordorigins.org
quote:
It has also served as a derogatory term for a black person since at least 1930. While cottonpicker has distinct racist overtones, the adjective cotton-picking does not carry them, instead being a reference to the unpleasant nature of the work.
And, dagnabit, you'd think after all these years I could tell the difference between a quote and an edit button!

--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
---
AAMAH

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Lydia Oh Lydia
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I never knew the origin of "gypped" (or how to spell it) before this thread.

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"My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League.

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rodh
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
It was racist whether or not he meant it.


I don't agree with you. Words are not racist; thoughts and beliefs are.

Additionally, Jews are not a race. They are a religion. I can become Jewish but I can't be anything but a White guy.

I hate the fact that people use the word racist when they really mean bigoted or stereotyped.

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Dropbear
Angels from the Realms so Glurgy


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quote:
Originally posted by rodh
Words are not racist; thoughts and beliefs are.

Yes any word is, in and of itself, not racist it is simply a word. However the phrase used:
quote:
“I didn't feel it was worth it to JEW you down.”
is an thought expressed in words which uses a sterotyped view of jewishness which in turn implies a negative characteristic to the group identifying as Jewish.

As such I would argue it is racist.

As to whether being Jewish is a matter of race or religion I would suggest that the issue is a bit more complicated than just a questionof religion since, AFAIK, the persecution faced by the jews has often functioned on the basis of parentage as much as religion. People who refer to Hitler as being 1/4 Jewish aren't suggesting that he spent 25% of his time in the synagogue but that he was genetically Jewish and that this was either ironic or a slur.

Dropbear

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" The villagers had said justice had been done, and she'd lost patience and told them to go home, then, and pray to whatever gods they believed in that it was never done to them. -- (Terry Pratchett)

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by rodh:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
It was racist whether or not he meant it.


I don't agree with you. Words are not racist; thoughts and beliefs are.

Additionally, Jews are not a race. They are a religion. I can become Jewish but I can't be anything but a White guy.

I hate the fact that people use the word racist when they really mean bigoted or stereotyped.

No. Jewishness is either/or an ethnicity/religion. You can be a Jew by birth - either Sephardic or Ashkenazi or Mizrahi and never have eaten so much as a matzoh ball. Or you can be Jewish by birth and very devout. Or you can be non Jewish, like my mom, and convert. Her husband is Jewish by birth and choice. She is Jewish by conversion. (which was done with the ritual mikvah bath and the whole proper thing - she would be accepted by some Orthodox, but not all. Reform and most Conservative would certainly accept her.)

excerpt "A Jew who converts to another religion is considered an apostate, but he is still a Jew. Felix Mendelssohn, who converted to Protestantism and dedicated a symphony to the Reformation was an Ashkenazi Jew.
Atheism. A Jew who becomes an atheist is still considered a Jew. Karl Marx, an atheist whose Jewish mother and father had converted to Christianity before he was born, was an Ashkenazi Jew.
Hidden Identity. A Jew whose identity was hidden, who was raised in another religion, is still a Jew. Madeleine Albright, the former American Secretary of State whose Jewish parents converted to Catholicism to escape persecution in the Holocaust and then hid their ancestry, is an Ashkenazi Jew by a traditional halakic definition, even though she did not know of her identity until she became an adult, and was already a professing Catholic.
Renunciation. A Jew who renounces and even condemns Judaism is still a Jew. Bobby Fischer, the international chess star who has claimed that the Holocaust was a Jewish invention and a lie, is an Ashkenazi Jew."

Who is a Jew?

This duality is unique among ethnicities/religions.

-and also I don't see why a word can't be racist, just as it can be complimentary, neutral, or anything else. If I say NIGGER, that is a racist word, you can play with semantics all day long, but that's just games. The word NIGGER comes from racist thoughts and beliefs - therefore it's a racist word. (I agree that "Jew" being racist is dependent upon context - "to Jew down" is racist IMO. I also agree that "bigoted" is probably a more accurate word in some cases than "racist.") As is kike, spic, honkey, beaner, etc. And only a shmuck would be such a nudnik as to use these expressions already - I just about plotz every time someone uses the N word around here. Meshugina.

edited.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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entropy9
I Saw Three Shipments


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wow, this board is so interesting! I also thought gypped was jip...but i don't really use too much american slang, so i don't say it anyway... here's my little anecdote though;
in my country, we say "chinky" meany really tiny...we all say it and no one bats an eye...however, i have little eyes and one day i referred to them as chinky, in front of my roommate and she gasped that i was being racist...I didn't mean it to be about chinese people ( i didn't even know the word chink was the racial slur associated with them) but when i thought about it, my country does have a sizeable pop. of chinese immigrants, so i figured it probably did originate that way...as a slur...but seriously, everyone says it, even the chinese people! so i asked my parents not to say it anymore, however they may mean it because it could really be a slur and could be taken wrong...

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bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
-and also I don't see why a word can't be racist, just as it can be complimentary, neutral, or anything else. If I say NIGGER, that is a racist word, you can play with semantics all day long, but that's just games. The word NIGGER comes from racist thoughts and beliefs - therefore it's a racist word. (I agree that "Jew" being racist is dependent upon context - "to Jew down" is racist IMO. I also agree that "bigoted" is probably a more accurate word in some cases than "racist.") As is kike, spic, honkey, beaner, etc. And only a shmuck would be such a nudnik as to use these expressions already - I just about plotz every time someone uses the N word around here. Meshugina.

George Carlin's take on the matter:

quote:
There's a different group to get pissed off at you in this country for everything your not supposed to say. Can't say Nigger, Boogie, Jig, Jigaboo, Skinhead, Moolimoolinyon, Schvatzit, Junglebunny. Greaser, Greaseball, Dago, Guinea, Whop, Ginzo, Kike, Zebe, Heed, Yid, Mocky, Himie, Mick, Donkey, Turkey, Limey, Frog. Zip, Zipperhead, Squarehead, Crout, Hiney, Jerry, Hun, Slope, Slopehead, Chink, Gook. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words in and of themselves. They're only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullshit! It's the context that makes them good or bad. The context. That makes them good or bad. For instance, you take the word "Nigger." There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word "Nigger" in and of itself. It's the racist asshole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about. We don't mind when Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy say it. Why? Because we know they're not racist. They're Niggers! Context. Context. We don't mind their context because we know they're black. Hey, I know I'm whitey, the blue-eyed devil, paddy-o, fay gray boy, honkey, mother-****er myself. Don't bother my ass. They're only words. You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room on every street corner in this country.



--------------------
"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra

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ParaDiddle
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Buf, are you sure that site is a verifiable transcription of Carlin's words? It's certainly not Carlin's site.

Sorry, BS alarm hit on this one.

- P

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Mad Jay
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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I don't know whether it's accurate word for word, but I remember that I saw George Carlin on HBO couple of weeks ago, and I remember him saying that

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Nico Sasha
In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel.

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bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by ParaDiddle:
Buf, are you sure that site is a verifiable transcription of Carlin's words? It's certainly not Carlin's site.

Sorry, BS alarm hit on this one.

- P

What Mad Jay said. I found the link by searching on bits of the routine I remembered hearing. I've watched the entire special numerous times, and that part (as well as others) is almost precisely what he said.

buf 'Those Passengers In Need Of Special Assistance - Cripples!' ungla

ETA: The name of the special is Doin' It Again, recorded in 1990.

--------------------
"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra

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Griffin at the Maul
Joyeux New Sale


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Carlin has been doing that joke for years. Along with the seven dirty words, and about 200 different words for the penis.

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Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?

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tagurit
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by entropy9:
wow, this board is so interesting! I also thought gypped was jip...but i don't really use too much american slang, so i don't say it anyway... here's my little anecdote though;
in my country, we say "chinky" meany really tiny...we all say it and no one bats an eye...however, i have little eyes and one day i referred to them as chinky, in front of my roommate and she gasped that i was being racist...I didn't mean it to be about chinese people ( i didn't even know the word chink was the racial slur associated with them) but when i thought about it, my country does have a sizeable pop. of chinese immigrants, so i figured it probably did originate that way...as a slur...but seriously, everyone says it, even the chinese people! so i asked my parents not to say it anymore, however they may mean it because it could really be a slur and could be taken wrong...

What country is that?

--------------------
Explore, enjoy and protect the planet
---
AAMAH

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I saw Mommy kismet Santa Claus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Hero Mike, I can vouch for the ability to grow up in the Bible Belt and not know any insults for jewish people or really anything else about jewish people, culture, customs or stereotypes. I grew up in rural Arkansas until I was 11. I then moved to Richmond, Va. I went to college in Texas, and I was out of college before I met an American with open hostility towards jewish people. I don't think I ever even met a jewish person until I was in high school.

I met an anti-semite my senior year in college, he was Syrian. It was during his hate-filled rants that I realized that there are jewish last names, let alone stereotypes of jewish behavior. One of my room-mates was jewish, which I knew. But I didn't realize she had a jewish name, a stereotypical accent and physical appearance and relationship with her mother. And while I wouldn't have used the phrase "jew down" because I didn't hear it often, I wouldn't have considered it derogatory.

Rural southern America is fairly insular, and the people tend to, IME, simply ignore anything that isn't directly a part of their own neighborhood. A jewish person is as abstract a concept as a martian in the small town I came from.

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dfresh
Deck the Malls


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Well, those martians are all over the place now...
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eif
Jingle Bell Hock


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Doug -

Have you ever gone Dutch with someone for a meal?

Have you ever felt the need for some Dutch courage?

Know of anyone that you would describe as a Dutch Uncle?

If you answer yes to any of this questions then you are just as guilty as the fellow in your OP. It is just want is viewed as acceptable. The English warred with the Dutch so all these Dutch expressions came into the language. The war is long over but the expressions remain. They are still wrong but no one is getting upset with them. As for the comment in the OP, yes it is wrong as well, but most likely, the guy probably didn't realize that he said it or offended you. But they only way he would stop using it is if people tell him that they are offended.

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Where I come from we believe all sorts of things that aren't true. We call it History.

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Okay, the one word that jumped out at my in Carlin's rant is skinhead. I am pretty curious as to who considers that a racial epithet.

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Officially Heartless

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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What the heck are Dutch Uncles and Courage?

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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dfresh
Deck the Malls


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Rhiandmoi, Dutch Courage is alcohol, and a Dutch Uncle is someone who gives you advice. I think that it generally implies someone who gives overly close advice (too intimate for their relationship to you.)
eta : link

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Does anyone know what connection those three concepts (both parties paying for their portion on a date, alcohol = courage, and overly intimate advice giving) have with stereotypes about the Dutch? I am unfamiliar with any stereotypes about Dutch culture.

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Officially Heartless

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Silkenreindeer
Wassaleing


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Dutch Courage = liquor.
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dfresh
Deck the Malls


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Thistle, at the link in my last post, they talk about how the English and Dutch were rivals, so the English started making all bad things Dutch.
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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by bufungla:
quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
-and also I don't see why a word can't be racist, just as it can be complimentary, neutral, or anything else. If I say NIGGER, that is a racist word, you can play with semantics all day long, but that's just games. The word NIGGER comes from racist thoughts and beliefs - therefore it's a racist word. (I agree that "Jew" being racist is dependent upon context - "to Jew down" is racist IMO. I also agree that "bigoted" is probably a more accurate word in some cases than "racist.") As is kike, spic, honkey, beaner, etc. And only a shmuck would be such a nudnik as to use these expressions already - I just about plotz every time someone uses the N word around here. Meshugina.

George Carlin's take on the matter:

quote:
There's a different group to get pissed off at you in this country for everything your not supposed to say. Can't say Nigger, Boogie, Jig, Jigaboo, Skinhead, Moolimoolinyon, Schvatzit, Junglebunny. Greaser, Greaseball, Dago, Guinea, Whop, Ginzo, Kike, Zebe, Heed, Yid, Mocky, Himie, Mick, Donkey, Turkey, Limey, Frog. Zip, Zipperhead, Squarehead, Crout, Hiney, Jerry, Hun, Slope, Slopehead, Chink, Gook. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words in and of themselves. They're only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullshit! It's the context that makes them good or bad. The context. That makes them good or bad. For instance, you take the word "Nigger." There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word "Nigger" in and of itself. It's the racist asshole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about. We don't mind when Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy say it. Why? Because we know they're not racist. They're Niggers! Context. Context. We don't mind their context because we know they're black. Hey, I know I'm whitey, the blue-eyed devil, paddy-o, fay gray boy, honkey, mother-****er myself. Don't bother my ass. They're only words. You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room on every street corner in this country.


Well, I respectfully disagree with Mr. Carlin. This is, as I mentioned earlier, semantic games. Maybe there is nothing wrong with the word Nigger itself, but frankly, other than an (what is the word, etasomething meaning the study of words?) discussion of it - like "how do you spell Nigger" - it IS an insult. If you call a black person a Nigger, it's an insult, whether it's tne context or the word, so the end result is the same, and the distinction is useful fodder for standup comedians but means very little in real life usage.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Actually, snapdragonfly, I'm not sure you do, at least not entirely. He says:

quote:
It's the context that makes them (certain words) good or bad.
Carlin says that "n*****" isn't offensive when Eddie Murphy says it, not that the word isn't offensive at all. From my reading of that quote, Carlin would find the OP use of "jew you down" to be offensive, because of the context. And earlier, you said:

quote:
I agree that "Jew" being racist is dependent upon context - "to Jew down" is racist IMO.
I agree with that comment, and I also agree with Carlin's comments. So I guess we're interpreting his comments differently.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Well, I guess it depends on the history of the word. Jew has a neutral meaning. It can be used as an insult.

I don't know of any neutral use of the word "nigger." (or any of the other racial slurs that Mr. Carlin lists.)Some 100 years after the civil war, some black comedians have co-opted it for their own use, but the origins and main usage of the word are anything but neutral. Neither is beaner, or kike. I'm trying to think of an instance in which the context of saying "beaner" is not an insult. I grew up in New Mexico and there weren't many blacks or Jews but there were lots of Mexicans and I can assure you I never heard the word beaner used that it was not an insult.

So I guess I have to conclude, well, sometimes. [Wink] As in the other issue of race/ethnicity, Jewishness, and the world "jew" seems to again have a rather unique duality of nature. Fitting for such a complex and fascinating people.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Having just been absorbed in that site for an hour, thanks for linking it and I apologize for not checking the link before I asked.

ETA: This comment is directed at dfresh

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Officially Heartless

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Mistletoey Chloe
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But going Dutch is not a bad thing.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
But going Dutch is not a bad thing.

I think it the only way it could be considered to be bad would be if the party who would normally pay insisted on going Dutch, thus seeming cheap. Like if you boss invited you out for lunch and then insisted on going Dutch even though she makes ten times what you make. Although perfectly fair, that might make her seem a little cheap.

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Officially Heartless

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Spam & Cookies-mmm
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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
But going Dutch is not a bad thing.

Except that the original term was "Dutch treat".

If I were to "treat" you to lunch, that would mean that I'd pay. But the term implies that if a Dutch person "treated" you to lunch, you could expect to pay your own way.

The Word Detective.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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That's interesting. I wonder if the fact that it's evolved into a positive expression redeems the problematic origin?

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by eif:
Doug -

Have you ever gone Dutch with someone for a meal?

Have you ever felt the need for some Dutch courage?

Know of anyone that you would describe as a Dutch Uncle?

No.

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And now for something completely different...

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