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Author Topic: Doing business with a ???
Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Not sure if this a rant or better put in some other topic, but here goes...

Today I sold my travel trailer. The guy I sold it to came out the house, looked it over, and made me an offer I couldn't refuse. He has grandkids and it will be perfect for him. I was happy because now my trailer, which was getting too small for my 5' 5” kids (the youngest is only 11, he will be 6 foot plus before he stops growing), will now have a new nice home. It will continue to have happy kid's voices fill it. I like that idea. We have LOTS of fun memories associated with that trailer...

Or I thought.

As we were passing around money and titles (he gives me money, I give him the title), we start talking about the deal process. We agreed that he wanted to pay less and I wanted to get more, but that our compromise was the whole idea behind “deals”. THEN he says this:

“I didn't feel it was worth it to JEW you down.”

Now tell me if I am wrong, but I thought that sort of statement would be considered NOT PC. Sort of like, “Well, I just nigger rigged it...” (although, if you think about it, that last one could be a compliment as it shows ingenuity). Now I've not heard that type of language in a LONG time. Far from it for everyone in Alabama to be PC, but I was not sure how to deal with it. I've been here almost 20 years and that is the first time in a LONG time (I can't remember the last time I heard it). I have heard the “N” word now and then and I know how to react, but "Jew you down"? WTF?

Should I have backed out of the deal? Should I have told him I thought it was an inappropriate phrase? I just said nothing and counted my money. I know there was a previous thread that was about dealing with atheists or racists. Should I have done something?

Maybe I am the strange one to consider that phrase as racist. I never hear it at work, but a good chunk of them are JEWISH (we joke about dueling dietary regulations during Lent), so I can't see one of my officemates saying such a thing.

So what should I have done? Racist money is the same color as atheist or gay money (okay, that new colorful gay money is a bit different, but I can still use it to buy things... [Wink] ).

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And now for something completely different...

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Even though it is a racist statement and it should be obvious, I have heard it as a common phrase for at least 15 years that just means to haggle. My friends that are Jewish have been the ones to use it the most frequently, often with pride - I totally Jewed them down to $20!

I would have taken the money, and not thought so hard about it. But then again I hear that phrase all the time.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Jay Tea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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OK, so the guy used a bit of 'inappropriate' language, dropping a tired old cliche about the Jewish people being haggardly with money, you yourself just dropped a comparable clanger, 'colourful gay money'? Puh-Lease , had you said that one in certain company you'd have got some looks, so I wouldn't worry too much about a bit of bad taste from a bloke you're selling a trailer to...

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This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever...

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quiltsbypam
Happy Holly Days


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I don't think it would have been the time or place to correct him, or that you should have. You probably won't ever see him again; he isn't family, a friend, or a coworker. You probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere anyway. It's just an unpleasant reminder that Archie Bunker still lives, here and there.

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"No Biblical hell could ever be worse than the state of perpetual inconsequence." Beatrice in Dangerous Beauty

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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You're from Alabama, I doubt the guy meant it in a racist way. I'm from Tennessee, so I figure we sure southern culture in common, at least. I've heard my father, who is definitely not a racist, use the phrase when referring to car deals. It's definitely NOT PC, but PCness isn't exactly a big deal where I'm from, I would assume the same about most areas of Alabama.

I wouldn't have taken it as racist and definitel would have taken the money. Don't feel down on yourself because of what someone you did business with said. Unless he's planning on using the trailer to run over minorities, you're not contributing to anything.

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Midgard Dragon
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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Tea:
you yourself just dropped a comparable clanger, 'colourful gay money'? Puh-Lease , had you said that one in certain company you'd have got some looks,

Funny, I made a similar comment to my gay officemate, and he thought it was funny... I guess it all depends on the situation.

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And now for something completely different...

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Jay Tea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Tea:
you yourself just dropped a comparable clanger, 'colourful gay money'? Puh-Lease , had you said that one in certain company you'd have got some looks,

Funny, I made a similar comment to my gay officemate, and he thought it was funny... I guess it all depends on the situation.
Ha! The nature of the PC beast is complex my friend [Wink]

That fellow might have landed that remark about 'Jewing down' to you and you might have been Jewish and smirked with approval, or defended it as 'your right to say only', or just let it be known you didn't approve or got angry or do what you did etc etc. That gay people would have brightly coloured money if they could is the same stereotyping as the Jew that gets the best deal for themselves - equally dated, and equally not worth getting your undergarments in a twist over [lol]

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This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever...

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MaxGunnar
Deck the Malls


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when someone says something stupid like "jew him down on the price" or "bring over that jewbar"(a mechanical device for moving heavy equipment) here in Richmond I go into my little tale about Jeff Davis's Cabinet. All of Jeff D's cabinet was either fired or quit with the exception of one man. Judha P. Benjamin I think they even have a statue of him.
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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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It was racist whether or not he meant it. And the Gay money joke (especially where you are lumping in "gay" with racist) was much in the same vein. Whether or not your colleague laughed. Because you don't really know what he was thinking. I once laughed, nervously, albiet at a joke whose main feature was a pun on the word "squaw" . You learn after awhile to pick your battles.

Nice try on the attempt to re-establish your liberal "cred" though.

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Yes. It may not have been consciously racist (it's possible he thought the word was spelled "due" and had nothing to do with religion), but it is racist all the same. I ran into this last week and simply left the conversation, but if I had been prepared I would have winced and said "Please don't say that; it's very offensive to Jews."

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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EarhornJones
I Saw Three Shipments


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I grew up in Southern Illinois, and the phrase "Jew down" was, and presumably still is very common. I never gave it much thought, and used it myself somewhat regularly until I moved to Iowa, and used the phrase when speaking to my fiancee, who was extrememly shocked and gave me a thorough dressing-down. In giving the phrase some thought, I realized that she was absolutely right, and that the phrase was quite offensive. I'm not defending the use of racist language, but I know that in my small, rural hometown, many good, kind people without a racist bone in their bodies used that phrase without intending to give any offense.

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Eh?

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vicious
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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I think picking your battles is wise, and this definitely is not a battle worth fighting.You probably won't see this guy again, and even if you had said something, he would have probably shrugged it off. Furthermore, It's a bit naive to think that all it takes to change this guy's ways is a comment from a total stranger.
I also believe we are getting WAY too sensitive regarding these types of comments.

But hey, That's just me.

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lOoK aT yOuR SoCiAl ProBlEm.

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Living where I do, I "get" to deal with racist statements all the time. Usually, it is directed at either gay or blacks. For some reason, it is NOT often directed at Jews. I am not sure why. This was just unusual.

As for "liberal cred", my liberal friends think I'm too conservative and my conservative friends think I'm too liberal. It is always fun.

But I did get my "luxery mo-bile ay-part-ment" sold for a good price. Yahoo!

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And now for something completely different...

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Avril
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
As for "liberal cred", my liberal friends think I'm too conservative and my conservative friends think I'm too liberal. It is always fun.

You too? What do we do, when we can find no way to describe ourselves? "Moderate" just sounds wishy washy somehow.

As for the OP, there are huge numbers of people all across the country who do not think the word has anything to do with actual Jews. I know this because I don't know how old it was before it occurred to me that there was any connection. A lot of words are sound-alike words. Homosexuality doesn't correlate with cheerfulness in any direct way, either, yet both are "gay."

Give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Avril

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There is no failure unless one stops. --Ray Bradbury

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Doug, you know how you always say that racism is just as prevalent in the North, but it's more subtle? Well, I agree with you more than ever now because "jew you down," "don't be such a Jew," and other insults/ phrases based on the Jews and money stereotype are incredibly common here. I don't know if California counts as the North but since it was a free state I guess it's the same thing.

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Officially Heartless

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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Avril, you are completely and totally wrong about what you say. People know their stereotypes - if the phrase "Jew you down" has nothing to do with the Jewish religion, then precisely what *is* the origin of this phrase?

Even in the back woods of Alabama, people still have the same racist stereotypes as anywhere else. The guy in the OP may have never *met* or even *seen* a Jew in his life, but he "knows" that Jews are business-savvy and look to cheat you in any negotiation involving money, because they are also greedy, dishonest, and care only about money. It's not acceptable, and it is racist regardless of whether or not you mean it.

There's a lot of racism out there that gets tacit approval like this. If you go to the store and get shorted on your change, you think nothing of saying that the person "gypped" you. That comes from "Gypsy" - and comes from the stereotype that Gypsies cheat you in any deal. Where does this come from? The stereotype is from when the Gypsies came to town and sold you something, since they own no land and have no desire to settle. By the time you realize what you've been sold is junk, they are long gone.

Whether or not you've met an actual Gypsy - including a fortune teller with a big earring and strange accent - using that phrase is still a racist stereotype.

As for the OP, well, good thing it wasn't a woman.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Just because something is the origin of a phrase doesn't mean that people using it know the origin. For 2 examples I had no idea that gyp was even the spelling of the word I thought it was jip and I thought it was a funny way of saying shortchange, and I thought spaz was a certain type of nerd and not someone with cerbral palsy. And I had used those words for over 20 years before finding out any different.

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I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.

What is .02 worth?

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Kev
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
So what should I have done? Racist money is the same color as atheist or gay money (okay, that new colorful gay money is a bit different, but I can still use it to buy things... [Wink] ).

If he was Matt Damon I would have engaged him in a naked shower fight later on. But seeing as that wasn't the case, I would have done just as you and let it go. There's no reason to lose your sale just because he is an idiot.

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Avril
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Rhiandmoi:
Just because something is the origin of a phrase doesn't mean that people using it know the origin. For 2 examples I had no idea that gyp was even the spelling of the word I thought it was jip and I thought it was a funny way of saying shortchange, and I thought spaz was a certain type of nerd and not someone with cerbral palsy. And I had used those words for over 20 years before finding out any different.

Which was my point, not that the phrase actually had nothing to do with Jews. It is just that people don't necessarily know there is a connection, particularly when they've heard it all their lives.

Hero_Mike, your post implies you can read the guy's mind--which is not fair at all. You are free to tell someone who says something offensive that it is so and why, but you cannot assume that just because someone says something like that that they know what it means.

Avril

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There is no failure unless one stops. --Ray Bradbury

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
So what should I have done?

You should have gypped him.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
Living where I do, I "get" to deal with racist statements all the time. Usually, it is directed at either gay or blacks. For some reason, it is NOT often directed at Jews. I am not sure why.

Given your description of the area, I'd wager it's because nobody there knows what a Jew *is*, outside of Bible characters. This is the part of the Bible Belt where they have "both" religions, Baptist and Methodist, right? Everything you've ever said about the area reminds me of where I grew up, and if you asked for a bagel down there, somebody would try to find you a hunting dog.

buf 'jew ready for dinner, son? [Wink] ' ungla

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"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra

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MaxGunnar
Deck the Malls


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Gyp'ed is derived from Egypt where people thought Gypsies came from
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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Cite? It's one thing if you're arguing that "Gypsy" comes from "Egypt," but "gypped" directly is going to need a reference.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Two cites from the Patrin Journal, which is a journal of Roma and Sinti ("Gypsy") culture

1. The word gyp
quote:
A surprising number still don’t believe that we really exist. A letter to the editor of The Daily Texan (for May 17th, 1976) protesting the use of the word "gyp" in an article, received the printed reply that "‘gyp’ is not an ethnic slur, for the simple reason that gypsies are not an actual people."
and here

quote:
The term "Gypsy" as used in scholarly writings supports misconceptions that all Roma are migratory, roam the countryside, and are engaged in questionable or illegal activities, as exemplified by slang terms like "to gyp," meaning to swindle. For many people, just the word "Gypsy" conjures up the picture of dirty women in long skirts, apparently sickly babies in their arms, begging for money or asking to read palms. For others, they are petty swindlers who rent storefronts and deceive a gullible public. It is only natural that many Roma, therefore, view the word "Gypsy" as offensive.
Egyptians

For centuries Roma were called Egyptians, because of their having been mistakenly identified when they first arrived in Europe. The prevalent term "Gypsy" is a contraction of that earlier name, as are Gitano in Spanish, Gyphtos in Greek, and Gjupci in Macedonian. This term perpetuates the misconception that the people originated in Egypt. Roma are also called Zigeuner in German, Tsigani in Russian, Zingari in Italian, and Tigani in Romanian. These names are variants of the Greek word Athinganoi, meaning "don't touch." It was also the name of a religious sect formerly inhabiting Phrygia and Thrace in Asia Minor who shunned contact with outsiders.

So "gyp" is an offensive term describing stereotypic behavior deriving from a term that most the people to whom it is applied find itself offensive.

What is wrong with "bargain" or "rip you off"?

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There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Cite? It's one thing if you're arguing that "Gypsy" comes from "Egypt," but "gypped" directly is going to need a reference.

Dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster both say that gyp "probably" came from gypsy, Random House is sure of it, and World Wide Words says that's probably the origin as well (though, while being able to point to a date of the early 1900s for the origin, cannot point to a smoking gun).

The link between the words gypsy and Egypt is a bit better documented.

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"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra

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Ophiuchus
Deck the Malls


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I think the holocaust and the wide-spread knowledge of it is enough to inform someone what a 'Jew' is. Of course, it also creates quite a bit of unfounded guilt in people which some less scrupulous Jewish people have been known to take advantage of... (but then, who wouldn't?)

I think a far more offensive and fairly commonly used one is "Indian Giver", the history behind that one is much more damning...

But then, one should be careful about using group names in the place of verbs.
Just wait until one day when someone calls the police and says "That pervert just Catholic'd my child!"

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
So "gyp" is an offensive term describing stereotypic behavior deriving from a term that most the people to whom it is applied find itself offensive.


In all fairness though to most who have used this word I do not believe they know the origin of the term. Once it is brought to their attention I would hope they would stop using it of course. But the term Jew as used in the OP, well, I just cannot see how anyone can claim they don't know what they are saying about Jews when they use this term.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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MaxGunnar
Deck the Malls


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ok, here's a bunch that are racialy tinged as well but many people aren't aware. "Cotton Pickin' " as in "keep your cotton pickin fingers off my stuff" "Have him in your pocket" "sold down the river". There are others but I can't think of them at the moment
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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by bufungla:
quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Cite? It's one thing if you're arguing that "Gypsy" comes from "Egypt," but "gypped" directly is going to need a reference.

Dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster both say that gyp "probably" came from gypsy, Random House is sure of it, and World Wide Words says that's probably the origin as well (though, while being able to point to a date of the early 1900s for the origin, cannot point to a smoking gun).

Bufungla, you are wrong. "Gyp" as a verb is from "Gypsy", and not exclusively in English.

To use a reference to Gypsies in a derogatory fashion is not limited to the English language. For example, the Polish word for Gypsy is "cygan". It can be used as a verb - much like - "gyp". The word is then "cyganisz", and it means, colloquially, "You're kidding", or that a person is not telling the truth.

It is generally less offensive than "gyp" in English.

Where does it come from? As explained above, a Gypsy does not, specifically, steal from you. They are, however, perceived to be dishonest. This *is* where the phrase comes from.

I'm sure that there are derogatory terms based upon "Gypsy" in other European languages.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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MaxGunnar
Deck the Malls


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Someone told me that "Hip Hip Hurrah" is also anti semetic as well, anybody know for sure?
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bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
quote:
Originally posted by bufungla:
quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Cite? It's one thing if you're arguing that "Gypsy" comes from "Egypt," but "gypped" directly is going to need a reference.

Dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster both say that gyp "probably" came from gypsy, Random House is sure of it, and World Wide Words says that's probably the origin as well (though, while being able to point to a date of the early 1900s for the origin, cannot point to a smoking gun).

Bufungla, you are wrong. "Gyp" as a verb is from "Gypsy", and not exclusively in English.

First of all, what I'm actually doing is paraphrasing the information from various cites, Are you claiming that I paraphrased them incorrectly, or are you disagreeing with the sources of the cites?

Second, the cites (and I) agree with you about the origin.

buf 'wtf,o?' ungla

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by MaxGunnar:
ok, here's a bunch that are racialy tinged as well but many people aren't aware. "Cotton Pickin' " as in "keep your cotton pickin fingers off my stuff" "Have him in your pocket" "sold down the river". There are others but I can't think of them at the moment

Funny, my wife actually picked cotton when she was young.

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by bufungla:
Given your description of the area, I'd wager it's because nobody there knows what a Jew *is*, outside of Bible characters. This is the part of the Bible Belt where they have "both" religions, Baptist and Methodist, right? Everything you've ever said about the area reminds me of where I grew up, and if you asked for a bagel down there, somebody would try to find you a hunting dog.

buf 'jew ready for dinner, son? [Wink]

You nailed it.

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by bufungla:
Given your description of the area, I'd wager it's because nobody there knows what a Jew *is*, outside of Bible characters. This is the part of the Bible Belt where they have "both" religions, Baptist and Methodist, right? Everything you've ever said about the area reminds me of where I grew up, and if you asked for a bagel down there, somebody would try to find you a hunting dog.

buf 'jew ready for dinner, son? [Wink]

You nailed it.
I disagree. If nothing else, the stereotype of the Bible Belt is that they knew their religious stereotypes. It's a little far-fetched for me to think that in this day and age, and *especially* in an area known for religious intolerance, that this referred specifically to Jews and their perception of being greedy, money-oriented, and dishonest in business.

That racist and intolerant people in the "Bible Belt" may not know what "kosher" means, they likely know their stereotypes quite well.

I don't claim to read someone's mind, but in the context it was used, that phrase is not used as a pleasant term, or one of familiarity.

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callee
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I do think that people's intent needs to be taken into account, though that does not entirely mitigate the offense. I said both "cottin pickin" and "gyp" for years due to being raised by parents - and grandparents - who said both. Neither are racist, and neither am I. When I used either term it was entirely in reference to annoyance and cheating, respectively. I had no knowledge of the racial background of the terms, and thus certainly did not intend that import myself.

As I said, however, this does not mitigate the crime entirely. A good comparison might be murder vs. manslaughter. With the latter, even though you did not intend the act, you still did it, and thus some punishment is deserved, though a lesser one than if you had intended it.

As for the OP, I'd say go ahead and complete the sale. If a fool and their money are soon parted, then the sooner the better, and even more better if you're the one doing the parting!

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a moment for old friends now estranged, victims of the flux of alliances and changing perceptions. There was something there once, and that something is worth honoring as well. - John Carroll

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