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Author Topic: Why I hate church
Chimera
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I hate church and surprisingly its not just because I'm an atheist (although that fact probably doesn't help). I used to tolerate my kid going to Sunday school. I thought the discipline and morals would be good for him and he could always dump the deity later if he didn't feel he needed an invisable friend once he grew up. So ok, I never really liked religion but I used to think it had some usefulness.

Now I hate the church my kid was going to. I actually haven't been fond of it for some time but everyday they prove themselves to be self righteous ashats. Everything is always perfect in their world. Everone is always obiedient and kind, everyone always has enough money (or at least those that matter), no one is seriously handicaped (at least no one important, with the odd exception of the deaf but no one there actually knows sign or a deaf person but they occasionally talk about how nice it would be if they did), and everyone always has a mother and a father that love them and who are loved in return.

I've finally had enough of their BS. Today, of course, was father's day. They started the crap again that everyone had a father who loved them (and they weren't talking heavenly father). Um, excuse me, even if everyone were perfect people die, shit happens. If you want to speak legally my kid has no father (termination of parental rights... ok, blame me for a mistake but don't take it out on the boy and argue with him because while it did take a man to make him that man doesn't love him). I really don't know where these people are getting their rose coloured glasses but I might need to order me a pair... evidently the colour of the sky is far different in their world than it is in mine.

I've had it. I'm letting the kid listen to the 'if I were god' song by the Bloodhound Gang, "Jesus Christ Football Star" by Martin Mull, and watch "Life of Brian" by Monty Python (my kid still thinks Monty Python means "naked snake", I think he's confusing two different shows or else he's more perceptive than me). Then when he gets back to town (well, actually two weeks from now) I'll send him back there with his new "education". Heck I'll even let him go to the childrens chapel and stay for the service. They'll kick him out of there in a heartbeat but he doesn't really like going anyway. I'll get amused, he'll get banned, we'll all be happy.

I know I could find a more liberal church (heck, my mom found the Unitarian Universalist) but some are too 'anything goes' for me to make the wasted time worthwhile. I started the whole religious thing to teach values but what happened to accepting the sinner (or at least the little ones who are 'sinned' against) and hating the sin?

BTW: Good news (no not the Bible), my mom okayed the crap I let my kid watch, listen to, do, ect. today. She found him editing what he was saying when it came to things like the Simpsons and Monty Python (starting to mention something then cutting it off in mid word/sentence) and felt it wasn't the hill she wanted to die on. She'd rather him be able to speak openly to her about things and doesn't think stupid song, shows and stuff are "serious". That's pretty much how she raised me. My only rules were 'no direct lies, no illegal drugs, and no sex as long as I lived under her roof'. I actually followed them (even though I also had no curfew, and really no other rules).

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"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun'

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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Chim, I don't think I would like that church either.

Sounds more like one of those "I'm OK, you're OK", "feel-good" and "don't offend the paying customers" type atmospheres. To me, that's not an honest application of Christ's teachings.

If you really think that you want to expose your child to a religious moral base, then perhaps you should shop around.

Trust me, they aren't all like that. Thankfully.

you hate *a* church. hopefully not *all* of them.

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by The ham and the bub and the BA:
Chim, I don't think I would like that church either.

Sounds more like one of those "I'm OK, you're OK", "feel-good" and "don't offend the paying customers" type atmospheres.

I'd describe it more as the "stick your head in the sand and ignore the reality of life today" atmosphere. If they were trying not to offend the "paying customers" they clearly didn't succeed in Chimera's case.

I agree, though, with your recommendation that she shop around. As for the UU church, my daughter has attended UU Sunday school, and I have taught it. IME, the kids do, in fact, learn values: treating everyone fairly, giving everyone a voice, respecting other people, etc.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by The ham and the bub and the BA:
Chim, I don't think I would like that church either.

Sounds more like one of those "I'm OK, you're OK", "feel-good" and "don't offend the paying customers" type atmospheres.

I'd describe it more as the "stick your head in the sand and ignore the reality of life today" atmosphere. If they were trying not to offend the "paying customers" they clearly didn't succeed in Chimera's case.

I agree, though, with your recommendation that she shop around. As for the UU church, my daughter has attended UU Sunday school, and I have taught it. IME, the kids do, in fact, learn values: treating everyone fairly, giving everyone a voice, respecting other people, etc.

I concur with what Lainie says. I also teach UU Sunday School and yes, the kids learn values. More importantly, they learn how to develop their own values and their own philosophy.

If you want to learn something about the roots of the UU philosophy of religious education, do a google search on a lady named Sophia Lyon Fahs.

If UUs had patron saints, she'd be mine.

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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Robofication, Lightly Roasted
Jingle Bell Hock


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"Did he just say Blessed Are The Cheesemakers?"

That sums up the church to me. Misinterpreted and misunderstood teachings.

Jesus was a swell guy. In fact, I think he had a very smart philosophy (and also a very dry wit; the man is hillarious).

But it's mixed up in Dogma and ritual. Learning values, morals, and ethics does not have to come from church teachings. A Humanist can have the same philosophy of a Christian, espouse the same values, with a different pretext. A Humanist doesn't need rules from on high to be a good human being. A Humanist can believe that humanity is inherently good and worth saving.

In fact, I believe Jesus was a Humanist who wrongly had the "son of God" label tacked onto him. But this is after many talks with religious scholars and theologians who have become disenchanted with the faith.

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"As convenient as it may be, it's time I started taking responsibility for the messes I've created instead of always blaming everything on the law of entropy"

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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As an atheist, why on Earth are you going to a church at all? You can get the whole morals thing elsewhere (hint: your own actions speak MUCH louder than any words your child might hear). It seems rather ingenuous. If you are “unsure” about God or something, then maybe I can see it, but the way you are doing it now could really be a source of confusion for your kid. “Yea, we go to this church for the great food, but we really don't believe a thing they say.” Then, to top it off, you go off & say a UU church is TOO open for your tastes. That is just plain ?????.

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And now for something completely different...

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infoseeker822
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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i don't like church.

i went to church as a kid until i was 11.(i'm 20 now) honestly i don't get the point. you go there to listen to some guy tell you about how much you're going to hell.

well i think that is wrong. personally i have been looking at all religions, they all have their good points. i like buddhism best, no creator Gods, just the pursuit of enlightenment.

you should just continue to shop around till you find something you can agee with.

best of luck.

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
As an atheist, why on Earth are you going to a church at all?

UU churches include many atheists, who go there for a variety of reasons.

quote:
Originally posted by infoseeker822:
i went to church as a kid until i was 11.(i'm 20 now) honestly i don't get the point. you go there to listen to some guy tell you about how much you're going to hell.

Depends on the church. [Big Grin]

I've attended 4 churches as an adult. Never, not once, at any of those churches, has anyone threatened me with hell.

I did have a bad, though different, experience with religion as a child -- within a sect that doesn't threaten people with hellfire because they don't believe in it.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Churches are merely an organization of human beings, and like any organization, they are as *insert descriptor here* or not, as the people in them. Aside from either accepting or not accepting the belief system, there's lots of reasons one might like or dislike a particular church.

I happen to really enjoy mine. The parish tends to be rather more educated (quite a few of the college professors attend, many professionals) and very community minded. Our church is responsible for starting the battered woman's shelter, Meals on Wheels, the homeless shelter, and countless other good works and charities - our patron saint is St. James, the one who preached that "faith without works is dead" and who made rather a big deal about tending to the orphans and widows. So we do a lot of that. So for that reason and a lot of others, I like my church.

And I have yet to be told I was going to hell. The sermons are short and scholarly - rather more like a lecture from a professor - and lacking in fire and brimstone. The music is uplifting and beautiful.

I visited a lot of churches and I most CERTAINLY did not find them to be like the one I ended up in. I get very turned off at "everyone else but us is a sinner and is going to hell" type of atmopsheres. If I HAD to attend some churches I know of, I would certainly hate it too. *ugh* So I can understand that sentiment, of "I hate church." But you can't judge all organizations, church or others, by just one.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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*arg* oops!

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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Chimera - why is your own bitterness so dominant that you would even use your own son for "revenge"?

You said this :

quote:
I've had it. I'm letting the kid listen to the 'if I were god' song by the Bloodhound Gang, "Jesus Christ Football Star" by Martin Mull, and watch "Life of Brian" by Monty Python (my kid still thinks Monty Python means "naked snake", I think he's confusing two different shows or else he's more perceptive than me). Then when he gets back to town (well, actually two weeks from now) I'll send him back there with his new "education". Heck I'll even let him go to the childrens chapel and stay for the service. They'll kick him out of there in a heartbeat but he doesn't really like going anyway. I'll get amused, he'll get banned, we'll all be happy.
Nobody has been harmed here. You don't like the church - fine - be done with it. Step away, and brush the dust from your sandals, so to speak.

Using your child as a tool of vengeance is wrong, even for an atheist.

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"The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Using your child as a tool of vengeance is wrong, even for an atheist.
Even for an atheist? I've never heard that atheists are known for using children as tools of vengeance. I'm an atheist and would never dream of it (not keen on vengeance at all, actually).

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"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
As an atheist, why on Earth are you going to a church at all?

UU churches include many atheists, who go there for a variety of reasons.
Yup, I goofed that one. See, my bias is showing. I STILL can't get my brain around the whole idea of the UU church. My Catholic brain just makes little buzzing noises until it resets. [Wink]

--------------------
And now for something completely different...

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lynnejanet
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by wanderwoman:
quote:
Using your child as a tool of vengeance is wrong, even for an atheist.
Even for an atheist? I've never heard that atheists are known for using children as tools of vengeance. I'm an atheist and would never dream of it (not keen on vengeance at all, actually).
Hero_Mike was responding specifically to Chimera's post about exposing her son to alternative and pop culture views of Xianity, ans then sending him back to his church/Sunday School. I don't think he was making any sort of general statement about athiests.

I agree with H_M that it is wrong, and unfair to the boy, to use him as a tool to express Chimera's bitterness toward the church. By all means, Chimera, let your son watch and listen to the things you posted about (you might want to include The Arrogant Worms' "Jesus' Brother Bob"), but it is so unfair to send him back to an environment where he is doomed to be "banned." That's just cruel, and it sure won't help his social skills any.

I'm sorry that the church turned out to be such a bad fit, but please don't use your son to express your own displeasure. Why don't you try talking to the pastor, or writing a letter? They may not even realize how many people they ostracise by idealizing fathers.

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lynne"insert appropriate punny phrase here"janet

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Chimera
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm not trying to use my son as revenge. Heck he's the only reason he's there. I was trying to give him faith. I don't attend (or very rarely attend... I'd go on some holidays or if he was in a play, he hadn't missed a Sunday of worship for 3 or so years).

He loves stuff like "Jesus Christ Football Star" (always has) he's just not normally allowed to mention it. He's now learned a bit of discrection, he doesn't like going to church, and so I figure I could let a little indiscretion slide.

I think I teach him basic morals. If nothing else the boy is honest. I just don't do too good with religion... he actually used to think Jesus Christ was a football star. Most of the society is xian and many find comfort in it. I just didn't want my boy to be left out if it was something that could be useful to him. He also attends skeptic events (which are mostly atheist and humanist). I figured I'd let him know about the world and let him figure out what he wanted to believe. As long as the message was fairly positive I didn't care.

Although that church is NFBSKed up. They actually showed kids juice and asked if they wanted some then poured it into dirt filled cups to prove some point (something about sin, I think). They did the same type of thing recently with water (the priest spoke about how good and cooling it was and then did not allow anyone to drink it). What the kid might say in childrens chapel is only one reason I don't allow him to attend. However, if we are going to leave we might as well make a memorable exit. Heck, the community doesn't even like the church. A neighbour put up a billboard critizing the place (they expanded big time and wrecked a neighbourhood pretty badly, a neighbout who refused to leave and put up a sign about "You call this community stuartship?"). I'm fairly "conserative" (I really am) but they take things too far, even for me. (a couple snopesters probably know exactly which church I'm refering to. its been in the local news a bit, but then again what church hasn't?)

I honestly don't know much about UU churches. All I know is I thought it was funny when my agnostic mom attended their services. I'm sorry but an (probable atheist) agnostic (that term, I'm told is more polite) going to church is funny.

I'm not really big on Humanism. I beilieve in the basic values and enjoy the celebrations like HumanLight Day but I just don't see the point of it. Everyone seems to just bring their own values. That isn't a bad thing, but how much can be agreed upon other than "people are cool, play nice". Maybe I'm missing something.

--------------------
"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun'

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NocturnalGoddess- naughty or nice?
Carol of the Dells


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Chimera, there are hundreds of churches in NC, just find another one.

I really don't get what you're complaining about. You are willfully sending your son to a place where veiws that are different, sometimes vastly different than your own will be taught to your son, and then not only becoming upset, but talking about using your son for "revenge" (and by revenge, I mean using a kid who is not old/experianced enough to fully grasp the points behind the comedic satire to unknowingly deeply offend the instructers' beliefs, all because you do not agree with them) and making no effort to find a church with beliefs closer to your's.

Good luck finding a church that will tell a child, without your permission, that his absent father hates him [Roll Eyes]

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"I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson

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Nobody Important
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
Churches are merely an organization of human beings, and like any organization, they are as *insert descriptor here* or not, as the people in them. Aside from either accepting or not accepting the belief system, there's lots of reasons one might like or dislike a particular church.

I wanted to second this emotion and also to say that sometimes "church people" have mistaken ideas and skewed points of view (e.g., that everyone is healthy, middle-class and has a dad), and so do "non-church people" (e.g., that most churches are boring, judgmental, hypocritical, whatever). We're all human, we all make mistakes, and we can all learn from each other. If you look at the people Jesus met, they weren't exactly cookie-cutter. Now, I don't see Jesus as just some first-century hippie-type Bo Bice lookalike. I believe He is divine. And I am not.
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MissBethie
I Saw Three Shipments


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I echo a lot of what people have said about shopping around. Not all churches are so superficial, nor are they so insensitive to the needs and situations that people find themselves in.

Though I would have loved growing up in the church since I missed out on a lot of fun things like Vacation Bible School and even learning basic Bible stories growing up, I became a Christian and joined a church completely out of my own choosing. My parents never took my brother and me to church and never talked about anything remotely religious as I grew up. When I was 15 years old, a good friend of mine invited me to go with her and a group of people to a concert. From then, my life changed. I was baptised the following October and I have been going to the same church for about 10 years now.

I feel very fortunate that my parents allowed me to make my own decision to go to church and that allowed me to make my faith my own, instead of the "inherited" faith that a lot of disenchanted Christians or others may have been brought up in. It was my choice to go to church and remains that way even now.

I think if you are turned off by a particular church then, by all means, don't go back there and if they don't think or do things that you want your child to be exposed to, it is up to you to protect him as you see fit. However, I don't think making fun of religion and using your son in this way to make a point is the best way to go about this situation. (Even though I was raised off of Monty Python, and I know how The Life of Brian kind of makes fun of Christianity, as does The Holy Grail).

I believe the best thing to do in this instance in the way of your son is to take into account the fact that as a parent you influence him in practically everything that you do. In doing what you plan to do in trying to turn him off to religion, I fear that you may be just setting him up to be defiant and disrespectful of others and their beliefs which could cause more harm to him as he grows up and starts getting higher in school and wanting to get a job or go to college. I'm not saying that it's completely wrong to question athority, its just that in your process to teach your son about how you feel about religion and the church you may also be teaching him to become rude and disrespectful, especially to adults, since it is the adult teachers in his Sunday School class that you seem to be aiming this animosity toward.

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"Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't they?" --the Scarecrow

"The Christian Right is neither."

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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My son went to a buddhist daycare and sometimes goes with his mother to her particular cocktail of hocus pocus. (Sorry Mrs. Ganz, but you know my feelings about these things!) In general the influence has been good but I just don't trust these places to allow neaarly enough critical thinking.

Nevertheless, if someone wanted to send him to a place in which they taught "You must believe X to get reward Y in this life and Z in the next..." then I would strongly object. I tolerate the religions we allow in our family because they are more abiguous about "mandatory" beliefs (and, to a certain degree and in my opinion only, more tolerant of different attitudes and understandings) than the religions I grew up with in my home country, USA.

So I feel I can always say to my son, "I don't believe that" and Mrs. Ganz or whoever is bringing the strange and interesting concepts will not say, "You're going to hell for that!" or some clumsy evasion of that implicit condemnation. Innstead, they are more likely to say, "Well, I don't know, either. This is just one way of understanding." (On a good day, that is. Everyone gets crabby, of course. And they may say, "Why do you have to be so negative?!"...)

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Chimera
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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lynnejanet, my son has been exposed to Arrogant Worms (can't believe anyone on this board has heard of them). My cousin (that recently passed away) Urban Carmichael did workshops and performances with them at comedy fest.

I don't know. My parents tried "church shopping" with me when I was a kid and it didn't work out. In the "Bible Belt" I think its a vast and pointless venture. Most churches are clones aside from a few mega churches which are just larger clones. Its like Santa. I tried but he seems to have out grown the concept.

I actually kind of like the Orthodox Churches but much of their services aren't in English. Also they are way overly superstitious. The moment they bring out a "relic" or explain why communion bread won't mold the kid will be lost. Ok, he did skeptic fuctions before church ones. I actually started him on Sunday school to get him used to classroom structure more than anything.

--------------------
"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun'

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NocturnalGoddess- naughty or nice?
Carol of the Dells


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"(can't believe anyone on this board has heard of them)"

I own all of their songs, as does my boyfriend.

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"I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson

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Singing in the Drizzle
Jingle Bell Hock


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My wife has this problem that I do not go to church. I keep telling her that I do go to church. I visite every time I go hiking up in the mountains arounds here. She does not understand that is were I find god. I have never found god is some building with a bunch of other people listening to some one telling me about god.
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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: In the Honey:
Good luck finding a church that will tell a child, without your permission, that his absent father hates him [Roll Eyes]

Maybe I didn't read her posts carefully enough but I didn't see anything to warrant this comment. She simply said that she didn't want people teaching him that everyone has a loving father. Where did this non-sequitur come from?
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NocturnalGoddess- naughty or nice?
Carol of the Dells


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quote:
Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: In the Honey:
Good luck finding a church that will tell a child, without your permission, that his absent father hates him [Roll Eyes]

Maybe I didn't read her posts carefully enough but I didn't see anything to warrant this comment. She simply said that she didn't want people teaching him that everyone has a loving father. Where did this non-sequitur come from?
Because it's just something that people say. "Your daddy loves you, he just can't be a part of your life, he has his reasons". It's what some people do to prevent kids from feeling unloved or alienated. It's not them trying to BS that the world is a perfect place. He's a child. She seems to have a problem with this, but there are a lot of people who would raise hell if their child were told, true or not, that their father didn't care about them, so father's day is pointless to them.

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"I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson

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queen of the bah-caramels
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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
lynnejanet, my son has been exposed to Arrogant Worms (can't believe anyone on this board has heard of them).

Sorry but another one who has never heard of them.Is this a good thing or a bad thing as I never heard of Fred Phelps or Ann Coulter until recently??

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Focus On The Family- An opinion group who think more about Gay Sex than gay people do- Rick Mercer

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candycane from strangers
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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This seems like a good thread to recommend Lamb by Christopher Moore for anyone who hasn't read it.

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A: "You contributed to the deliquency of a minor in drag!"
"Sweet spell check: keeping drunks off the radar since 1995."- IND
God Re-Animate Green Pork Bush

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: In the Honey:
[...] It's what some people do to prevent kids from feeling unloved or alienated. It's not them trying to BS that the world is a perfect place. He's a child. She seems to have a problem with this, but there are a lot of people who would raise hell if their child were told, true or not, that their father didn't care about them, so father's day is pointless to them.

I have to agree with her, though. I mean, I accept that they have certain beliefs but I don't see how they would reconcile those belifs with lying just to make a child feel better. But I guess I get what you're saying now: to some people, not telling a child that everyone has a loving father would be the same as telling those who don't have a father around that he hates them... (I'm sure to you it's not lying. I just disagree.)
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Chimera
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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My situation is unique when it comes to fathers. If my kid is asked about his father he will declare he has doesn't have a father (which is legally true) but he has a grandfather. I can see how the subject can be mentioned. However, in that church its assumed (that there is a mom and a dad and a brother, sister, and a dog and/or cat).

My child doesn't even know the name of his bio-dad. After the termenation of rights his name was changed. The bio-dad isn't legally allowed near the kid (not that he could get near the kid at the present time). He killed his twin (at three months of age) and damn near killed my living boy (and ended up in prision for it). Its not just a point of being absent. But it is a point of him getting out this year.... (crap legal system)

I don't know if hate is the right word but he sure doesn't love the kid. Even in prision he (was, until termination) allowed to apply for "Toys for Tots" and other simular programs and he didn't even do that (not that it would've mattered to me). I wanted to see some balls nailed to some walls, and not in the fun sense.

The 'man' was a white colar banker guy that seemed safe and secure, but things aren't always as they seem. I try to take comfort in my grandma's words "he fooled us all" (hell he passed a fairly high position criminal check for a bank). It doesn't help much but even our doctor that saw the boys on a weekly basis didn't notice anything amiss. Heck next time I'm betting on the carney trash. Not sure if it would be any better but it would probably be a more interesting journey.

Would some of you people actually tell a kid that the 'father' who killed his brother and nearly killed him loves the boy? I think telling him to run like hell and call 911 is a better plan. By the time the man's released the kid will know the drill and the police and DSS agree with me (and the plan doesn't include telling the kid his daddy loves him).

I know people slip up. Heck I even helped neighbourhood kids make Father's Day cards and stuff... although I did make it plain that my kid didn't have a "Dad" (I know some of the siblings have different fathers and perhaps no known fathers but I don't know the situation). My own problems probably made me far less judgemental but I try to be understanding to different circumstances.

When my kid's out and asked about his dad he just says he doesn't have a dad, he has a grandad. Most people are ok with that. It will happen but the church doesn't seem to comprehend the simple answer and will go on and on about it (even when talking directly to the child). I get the feeling that they can't conceive of anything but 2.5 kids and a mom and a dad living in a house with a picket fence and no finacial troubles. BTW: most people there have been told of our past.

Besides what kind of sick NFBSK offers little kiddies muddy juice to drink. I don't care if they are sinful little beast. Heck, I live with one and I know how he can be, but its still not right IMHO. Some of their sermons, "demonstrations", ect. cross the line IMHO.

I'm also not pushing my kid to do anything. I'm just no longer going to stop him from doing something he's wanted to do. It will probably result in him getting kicked out of a place he doesn't want to be. I don't see any harm in it.

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"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun'

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lynnejanet
Happy Holly Days


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I was impressed this Father's Day when our intentions as Mass included prayers for all step-fathers and father-figures, and prayers for all those who had been hurt by their fathers or father figures. There were also prayers for those struggling to become better fathers.

Chimera may not find a church that teaches her boy that his father is hateful, but she may find one that treats him and his unique situation with empathy.

[hijack] The Arrogant Worms are an awesome Canadian folk/comedy band. I highly recommend them! My two boys' favorites are Jesus' Brother Bob and I Pulled My Groin. [/hijack]

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lynne"insert appropriate punny phrase here"janet

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
I honestly don't know much about UU churches. All I know is I thought it was funny when my agnostic mom attended their services. I'm sorry but an (probable atheist) agnostic (that term, I'm told is more polite) going to church is funny.

You'd laugh yourself silly at my church, then. And "agnostic" is no more or less polite than atheist -- the words mean two different things.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
Would some of you people actually tell a kid that the 'father' who killed his brother and nearly killed him loves the boy? I think telling him to run like hell and call 911 is a better plan. By the time the man's released the kid will know the drill and the police and DSS agree with me (and the plan doesn't include telling the kid his daddy loves him).

I can't speak for others, but my response would be "No!". A good response (attempting to be as positive as possible) is beyond me. Your idea (the whole 911 thing) is much more practical. The only thing I might add is "forgivness", but more like, "Forgive, but NEVER forget...".

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And now for something completely different...

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Lynnejanet:
I was impressed this Father's Day when our intentions as Mass included prayers for all step-fathers and father-figures, and prayers for all those who had been hurt by their fathers or father figures. There were also prayers for those struggling to become better fathers.

Amen.

quote:
Chimera may not find a church that teaches her boy that his father is hateful, but she may find one that treats him and his unique situation with empathy.
Exactly. All this airy-fairy "everybody's daddy loves them" crap is not going to help this particular child. As Chimera points out, her son will have to learn the truth about his father, and how to protect himself, someday. He needs to know that the problem lies with his father, not with him.

Honestly, I wouldn't teach any child that "everybody has a father (or mother, for taht matter) who loves them" anymore than I'd teach a child that all dogs are sweet and friendly.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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NocturnalGoddess- naughty or nice?
Carol of the Dells


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Chimera, believe me, I understand what you are saying, but you realize that these people do not know the full story. Without personal knowledge of your son's history, they probably just assume (and, yes, we all know that assuming is wrong) that his father is absent because of either death or divorce. I mean, they're only trying to make the boy feel better, to the best of their know-how.

Pulling your kid out won't stop them from saying these kinds of things, and you're likely to resent not speaking up. You need to talk to them about this.

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"I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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NG has a point. What the church is doing may be thoughtless in the literal sense, in other words, it simply hasn't occurred to them that there might be a problem with their attitude. They'll never learn if Chimera doesn't talk to them about it.

If she does, and if they are unwilling/unable to understand, she will have done all she can.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
lynnejanet, my son has been exposed to Arrogant Worms (can't believe anyone on this board has heard of them). My cousin (that recently passed away) Urban Carmichael did workshops and performances with them at comedy fest.

I don't know. My parents tried "church shopping" with me when I was a kid and it didn't work out. In the "Bible Belt" I think its a vast and pointless venture. Most churches are clones aside from a few mega churches which are just larger clones. Its like Santa. I tried but he seems to have out grown the concept.

I actually kind of like the Orthodox Churches but much of their services aren't in English. Also they are way overly superstitious. The moment they bring out a "relic" or explain why communion bread won't mold the kid will be lost. Ok, he did skeptic fuctions before church ones. I actually started him on Sunday school to get him used to classroom structure more than anything.

Well, I live in the bible belt too and I certainly can see your point about "clones" out here - the church I found, that I like so much, is Anglican. (Or Episcopal) I don't know what you like about the Orthodox service but if it's the liturgy itself, you'd probably like the Anglican church too.

Of course they are going to be different from one another also, like any other denomination, but it's not a fundamentalist church and tends to be open, in fact encouraging, to critical thinking.

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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