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Author Topic: The day freedom of speech was lost
The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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quote:
In the event, child pornography is a hot-button issue, I think, and perhaps I saw it as an effort to deflect attention, somewhat. Is there a reason why you picked it as a hypothetical illegality as opposed to, say, links about cannabis use or information on how to evade speeding tickets?
Because linking to information about evading speeding tickets or using cannabis is not illegal. I can possess all the books and articles I want on the two subjects. That does belong under free speech. Bittorrent, on the other hand, links directly to the illegal material. Earlier in the thread I used an analogy of a person acting as a middle man for drug dealers. If I refer thousands of people to drug dealers for the express purpose of buying illegal drugs, does that make me a criminal? I don't possess any illegal drugs. I am just a guy handing out phone numbers. I posed this question, incidentally, as an honest question, not as a rhetorical one. My overall point wasn't necessarily that The Pirate Bay is illegal, but rather that it's legality is a gray area, and as such we shouldn't be jumping up and down acting like it is a complete travesty that they have been targeted. The conduct of the raid itself may have been wrong, but the simple idea that the Pirate Bay was shut down does not strike me as an egregious violation of anything.

I agree child pornography is a hot button issue. It was, however, an example that I think is a very realistic possibility, which is why I used it. The hypothetical child pornography site and the Pirate Bay both provide direct links to material that in and of itself is illegal. The only difference, IMHO, is that a lot of people have accepted (or have not bothered to consider) that downloading copyrighted material is okay, whereas very few people accept child pornography as okay. I am therefore curious whether or not people really believe in the "they don't host the material, they just link to it" argument, or if they are just using it to defend sites that are facilitating "acceptible" illegal behavior. Logically, the argument should apply to a bittorrent child pornography site as much as it does to any other bittorrent site. And as such, if the hypothetical child pornography site were raided in a similar manner, the outrage should be similar. Since it hasn't happened, I don't know. I just have a sinking feeling that there would be very few protests if the police did the same thing to a child pornography website, even though the same defense should apply just as strongly.

Troberg himself said he would not react as strongly, although to his credit he did say he still thinks it would be wrong.
quote:
Finally, and once again, The Pirate Bay does not host illegal material, they provide links to it. Everyone's looking at The Pirate Bay as illegal file sharers, when the only illegal file sharers are the ones that upload and download copyrighted material from the torrent links. I will be speaking out for them so there will be someone left to speak out for me, personally. Call it bullshit (didn't know that was a valid arguing tactic here at snopes) all you want.

Finally, and once again, anyone who has read just about any post in this thread is aware of that. I will go ahead and call it bullsh!t, but since you seem to think that is the only argument anyone has said here, let me lay it out for you: it is bullsh!t to think that the people running a site called The Pirate Bay, which by name itself obviously implies piracy (or maybe they just really like swashbucklers. Gee, I never thought of that.) -- a site that has links to thousands and thousands of copyrighted products, are not aware and encouraging the downloading of copyrighted material.

You can use the age-old "plausible deniability" argument all you want to keep them out of jail. But don't pretend that these are poor innocent guys who just want people to use bittorrent to share legal Greatful Dead bootlegs and freeware programs, and are just being taken advantage of by people who are misusing their website.

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Visit my blog, Websurdity... the Weird, the Bizarre, the Silly, the Absurd.

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The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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quote:
This is even if I, for the sake of the argument, forget that I believe that child pornography should be stopped at the source, in the production link of the chain, and that a site like that would make it easier to track those bastards down.
On this note, then, would you have any issues with the police using the Pirate Bay and other sites to track and arrest people who are uploading, downloading, and cracking copyrighted products? Keep in mind, we could be talking about thousands of people here.

As for the rest: I understand a little better what you are angry about (I agree with some other people, though, that I think you greatly overstated the issue), but I don't know enough about the other servers confiscated, and unfortunately, I don't know Swedish either, so I can't well find out. All the news here has focused on only the Pirate Bay. From the quote you provided, the U.S. only seemed concerned with the Pirate Bay website.

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:


quote:
This is not the first time I have called Troberg either on tacit anti-semitism or making wholly-unrelated events refer back to the Holocaust/rise to power of the Nazis. It's not even the second time I've called Troberg either on tacit anti-semitism or making wholly unrelated events refer back to the Holocaust/ rise to power of the Nazis. It's maybe the ninth or tenth. I hope it's the last, because it really is getting tiresome.
Tired of being wrong?

I'm not trying to hide the fact that I do not like the state of israel, but that's about the nation, not a race. As for making comparisons between atrocities, like it or not, but the nazis and the holocaust has become the very symbol of atrocities. I find it sad that it has reached such an iconic status that other atrocities are trivialized because of it. It should be a searchlight that illuminates the other atrocities, not put a blinding light in the eyes of the viewer.

The comparison between Bodstöm and Eichmann came from the distasteful use of the phrase "final solution" in combination with violations of human rights, and it was a clear call for justice. It's not trivializing anything, it's a statement that freedom can be lost at any level.

I'm well aware of the basis for your comparison between Bodstrom and Eichmann. Nonetheless, I found it distasteful, and tacitly anti-semitic. In the first instance, I'm generally suspicious of someone referring to the nation-state of Israel as 'the Jews,' and I think you could have phrased it much less offensively.Secondly, don't you think comparing this person to Eichmann is in any diminuitive towards Eichmann's crimes? It is difficult to parse anything from the statement you offered other than to assume you attach equivalence between this action and the attempt at the extinction of European Jewry during the Second World War. I find that intimation deeply offensive, and think you do have an obligation to clarify your remarks, and apologise for the offence caused. assuming, of course, that you didn't mean to give this impression. Which again, I can't be sure about.

Oh, and, of course, you haven't authenticated the use of the phrase 'Final Solution' from the US Department of Foreign Stuff Or Something Or Other, which I'm currently assuming you can't.

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Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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It was "the US foreign department", Dara. Don't you know what that is? (I hope so. Because it appears that is all the explanation we're going to get.)

Troberg, I don't understand this response. He suggested that you were trivializing the holocaust and your response included this.
quote:
I find it sad that it has reached such an iconic status that other atrocities are trivialized because of it. It should be a searchlight that illuminates the other atrocities, not put a blinding light in the eyes of the viewer.
How can you possibly think so if you keep comparing the holocaust to infinitely more trivial matters? If you compared it to a real tragedy involving the senseless and premeditated deaths of millions then I understand but your retort doesn't make sense in this context. To abuse your peculiar metaphor, how can the holocuast be a "searchlight" if you're willing to wear out the batteries just for fun.
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Dieter Meyer
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
It was "the US foreign department", Dara. Don't you know what that is? (I hope so. Because it appears that is all the explanation we're going to get.)

I think the confusion there stems from the fact that in Sweden there is a department simply called Utrikesdepartementet or 'The Department of Foreign Affairs'. I've seen the same use of 'the US foreign department' in a lot of Norwegian news papers.
How many foreign departments does the US have anyway? I haven't managed to find anything about it.

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RubyMoon
Deck the Malls


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The Swedish goverment signed the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works in 1904. (which is 85 years before the US bothered to sign it) -- so they most certainly know by now that what they signed was an agreement to protect the copyright on works of authors from other signatory countries in the same way it protects the copyright of its own nationals. Since a lot of the copyrights being violated are US copyrights, our government most certainly does have the right to tell your contry to put a stop to it. Apparently if your contry allows those kind of pirate sites to operate you are violating the treaty.

Edit to ad. This is not a feedom of speach issue, no one is putting you in jail for ranting. This is about copyright, and people not being ripped off.

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:

I'm not trying to hide the fact that I do not like the state of israel, but that's about the nation, not a race.

True. Being against Israel and being antisemitic are two totally different things. I'd only see a connection if someone referred to the nation as the race. You know, like referring to Israel as "The Jews".
quote:


As for making comparisons between atrocities, like it or not, but the nazis and the holocaust has become the very symbol of atrocities.

Right. Which is why it can be brought up when discussing, say, Pol Pot's killing fields. But bring it up in connection with a case like this, and you're likely to be accused of trivializing it.
quote:


I find it sad that it has reached such an iconic status that other atrocities are trivialized because of it.

Care to give an example? I can't think of one myself. Or do you mean to say that your OP was about an atrocity that is now being trivialized?
quote:


It should be a searchlight that illuminates the other atrocities, not put a blinding light in the eyes of the viewer.

Um, ok.
quote:


The comparison between Bodstöm and Eichmann came from the distasteful use of the phrase "final solution".

If it was used, I don't think it was distateful, I think it was ignorant. No doubt whatever official used it had no idea what he was saying. The only way it would be distateful is if someone were to knowingly bring up the Holocaust in connection with this case. Say, on a t-shirt.
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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by Signora Del Drago:
A quote from this thread.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I don't find it incredible, as a retainer can move the teeth with very little, but (more or less) constant pressure. On the other hand, it is also a handy thing to use to get a child to stop sucking their thumb.

Someone has to bring this up, so it may as well be me: What about oral sex? [Smile]

Okay, that's just yucky. We are talking about children here, for Pete's sake. I would hope that by the time one begins to engage in oral sex, his/her teeth are already permanent and strong enough to withstand said oral sex. So, you see, someone didn't have to bring this up.
It may seem that this has nothing to do with this thread, and I suppose that it does not; however, it does point out why some of us do not have much respect for Troberg's, in my opinion, rather odd posts. It may also shine a little light on his true thoughts about child pornography. Or not. Just a wild guess. It is quite possible that I misinterpreted. If so, I sit corrected.
You're right, it does have nothing to do with this thread. All I see is a quote with an off-the-cuff remark about oral sex, that happened to be involved in a thread about children. Anyone who makes a comment about children and sex, especially if it's just jokingly (see the smiley?), is not a pedophile. The comment in reply to him was a total overreaction. If anything, you just made me side with Troberg even more.

Midgard "has sex with children" Dragon ( [Wink] <-- hint at joking nature of the comment)

I did not call Troberg a pedophile. I know the meaning of emoticons. We were discussing in the linked thread the effects of children's thumb-sucking, not adults' thumb-sucking. His totally, to me, inappropriate remark was distasteful. Fast forward to this statement, "I would not react as strongly, but I would consider it wrong, especially if many innocent sites were shut down at the same time.", implying that he did not consider child pornography to be as bad as innocent sites' being shut down because of more than likely illegal file-sharing, and. . .I suppose I did see a little too much red. But you see, the child porn bit did not originate with me in this thread.

All of that being said, I stated that if I had misinterpreted, then I would sit corrected. After reading others' comments about how, to put it mildly, I had overreacted, I do think that I did make a mistake, and I sit corrected. When I make a mistake, I am the first to admit it. I now see that Troberg just made a joke, so I apologize to him for misinterpreting but not for my reaction to said joke. For the record, I still think it is reprehensible for anyone to joke about sex, oral or otherwise, when it concerns children. YMMV, but I have as much right to my opinion as you do to yours, so joke away if it makes you happy.

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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Banned 'piracy' website re-opens

link

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I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!

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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Dieter Meyer:
quote:
Originally posted by Ganzfeld:
It was "the US foreign department", Dara. Don't you know what that is? (I hope so. Because it appears that is all the explanation we're going to get.)

I think the confusion there stems from the fact that in Sweden there is a department simply called Utrikesdepartementet or 'The Department of Foreign Affairs'. I've seen the same use of 'the US foreign department' in a lot of Norwegian news papers.
How many foreign departments does the US have anyway? I haven't managed to find anything about it.

I was reading an article earlier today that referred to the US State Department, but now I can't find it. Could that be the "US foreign department" in question? If I locate the article, I'll post a link.
[fish] Strange that it was not in Swedish.

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Like the article I linked to and quoted earlier? On page 1?

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by The ham and the bub and the BA:
Like the article I linked to and quoted earlier? On page 1?

My goodness, yes, Hambubba! Sorry I had forgotten about that. Thanks for the reminder and for saving me the trouble of looking further.
Ganz, Dieter and anyone else who is still puzzling over that, please note.

By the way, glad to see your cute avatar back. I like it.

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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Jocko's Jolly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Rubber Chicken, to answer your question with your analogy about providing the telephone numbers of drug dealers, at least as it pertains to the US: it has been a while since I worked as a legal secretary (and the cop in the family is asleep right now), but here goes.

I believe that if you KNOWINGLY provided information that facilitated the commission of a crime, you could, in fact, be held criminally liable. In other words, if friend A came up to you and asked you for the name of a drug dealer so he could score some coke, and you provided the name and number of someone for that express purpose, that would, in fact, be illegal. However (and this is what most people claim when caught to get around the whole legal issue), if friend A came up to you and asked for the number of your friend B (whom you and A both know to be a drug dealer) and you provided it, you're not doing anything illegal, as there was no expression of an intent to commit a crime.

I'll double check with DH when he wakes up, but I'm pretty sure this is accurate.

So, to apply this analogy to the Pirate Bay (and this would also apply to the child porn analogy), if they are set up strictly for the purpose of facilitating the commission of crimes then they would be criminally liable, at least here in the US. And, in reading the BBC article, I did notice that it said that Pirate Bay not only provided the links but also provided the means for uploading and downloading, so that could also be interpreted as facilitating the crime.

ETA: DH woke up and my interpretation of the analogies was correct. He reminded me that a member of the Ravens football team just did jail time for that -- setting up a meeting between two parties for the purposes of setting up a drug deal.

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Like every good third-in-a-series it contains a whole load of ewoks, ‘Clubber’ Lang, whey-faced Sophia Coppola, Sean Connery as the Pirate Captain’s estranged dad, a crappy CGI alien, and Richard Pryor on a donkey. -- Gideon Defoe

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by The Rubber Chicken:
[QUOTE]*stuff you said you know what I'm referring to cut down to keep from quoting the whole post*

I wasn't referring to what anyone else said about it, I was referring to what you said about it. And you did call it bullshit, which was totally unnecessary if you're going to provide real argument. It just made you less credible by attempting at a blanket statement of how it was "bullshit." You could have as easily left out that one comment and it would have been much more credible. Calling something bullshit in a civilized debate on a web forum is akin to a child on a playground saying "neener neener neener, I'm rii-iight!"

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Midgard Dragon
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rubber Chicken:
[QUOTE]*stuff you said you know what I'm referring to cut down to keep from quoting the whole post*

I wasn't referring to what anyone else said about it, I was referring to what you said about it. And you did call it bullshit, which was totally unnecessary if you're going to provide real argument. It just made you less credible by attempting at a blanket statement of how it was "bullshit." You could have as easily left out that one comment and it would have been much more credible. Calling something bullshit in a civilized debate on a web forum is akin to a child on a playground saying "neener neener neener, I'm rii-iight!"
The 'bullshit' crack was actually me. and it was not in reference to any argument in particular, but to the repeated comparisons between this incident and the excesses of the Nazis. I stand by my assertion that to pull any kind of Pastor Niemoeller nonsense over your right to download other people's property for free is 'bullshit.' However, since it offends you, just for you I'll change my definition from "bullshit" to "utter wank."

Happy?

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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[flame] I have witnessed a chain-whipping which was prettier than this.

Troberg has in his usual way managed to take an extreme and profoundly un-nuanced position, this time on a relatively trival matter.

But that does not justify what seems to be little short of attempted character assassination by other posters, who seem to be using this opportunity to beat Troberg up because they don't like his posts on other topics.

All this talk of being offended is, frankly, stupid. Pretty much every day there are posts on snopes which offend someone. I could get offended by the frequent attacks on my religious faith, on my political views, on my views on abortion, or on any one of a dozen different topics. But I don't, because it's a debate forum, goddamit. It you object to someone's argument, then post a counter-argument. Don't give us this "I'm offended" NFBSK. And those posters - I can't bring myself to call them snopesters - who think ad hominem attacks are the way to get on, well , IMO you're betraying one of the best things about these boards.

None of us is perfect. But some of you, at least, are better than this (you know who you are). You should be ashamed of yourselves. [flame]

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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I know who I am, Rob, yes, and I'm suitably chastened.

You're probably right in that I've been harsher than I could have, but in my defence Troberg's whole "it's like the Nazis" thing has become what, in another thread long long ago, I christened a 'McFly moment,' one of those things that just send you into an implacable rage for no good reason.* (I'm also having a little bit of an anger management problem generally, possibly because I'm still on more pills than killed Elvis, but I don't want to go all self-justifying or anything.) It's quite probable that my responses to Troberg's posts are more aggressive than needs be.

I will also accept that you're right. I have not attempted a logical counter-argument to the notion that this state action, which seems to be in line with international treaties though untested in Swedish law, is in some way comparable to the excesses of the Nazi regime. (Furthermore, I pretty much refuse to do so, although hopefully in a manner deemed more facetious than mocking. [Wink] )

But, really, a man has his limits. I've had enough of Troberg shoehorning Nazis comparisons into every debate. Forget about cheapening the memory of the Holocaust, much more immediately pressing is the fact that it cheapens the debate he's presently in. I stand by my assertion that he needs to stop it.

Troberg,

I apologise for inferring anti-semitism from your posts. But it's not like I'm doing the Bible Code on them or anything. Don't compare things to the Holocaust anymore, please. Don't refer to Israel as 'the Jews' again, please. Whether or not you mean it pejoratively, it leaves a bad taste in one's mouth. And please, please, pretty please, if you're relying on something in your argument, back yourself up. For example, if the main focus of your wrath is (I think) the US State Department demanding a 'Final Solution,' which I understand you take offence to, because in your view it trivialises the Holocaust, you could back that up with evidence that someone from the aforesaid department had said that.

Ideally, of course, that would be before you made your feelings felt on the issue in a way that trivialises the Holocaust. But far be it from me to tell you how to go about your business. Er, except for those bits in the paragraph above, where I very much do.


*You know, whenever anyone calls Marty McFly 'chicken,' he just whites out into rage and goes Nobody calls me CHICKEN! and does an all mad thing or something. That was a fun thread, actually.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rubber Chicken:
[QUOTE]*stuff you said you know what I'm referring to cut down to keep from quoting the whole post*

I wasn't referring to what anyone else said about it, I was referring to what you said about it. And you did call it bullshit, which was totally unnecessary if you're going to provide real argument. It just made you less credible by attempting at a blanket statement of how it was "bullshit." You could have as easily left out that one comment and it would have been much more credible. Calling something bullshit in a civilized debate on a web forum is akin to a child on a playground saying "neener neener neener, I'm rii-iight!"
The 'bullshit' crack was actually me. and it was not in reference to any argument in particular, but to the repeated comparisons between this incident and the excesses of the Nazis. I stand by my assertion that to pull any kind of Pastor Niemoeller nonsense over your right to download other people's property for free is 'bullshit.' However, since it offends you, just for you I'll change my definition from "bullshit" to "utter wank."

Happy?

I'm happier when civil debate occurs. Maybe change to a more, y'know, civilized word. Then support what you believe with proper debate tactics.

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Midgard Dragon
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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Okay, point taken. I will rephrase as follows:

"On the basis of the reportage provided, the comparison between this action and the excesses of the Nazi era is ludicrous, an insult to everyone's intelligence. No rational person in full command of their faculties could think otherwise. Were anyone to think otherwise, I'm afraid it would impact quite profoundly on my opinion of their intelligence and judgement."

I'm not willing to 'debate' it, however. Similarly, I'm not going to debate the notion that we're all actually conscious marionettes operated by Sky-people with enormous invisible wires. Or that the fellow across the road from me has an enormous underground complex under his house from which he plans the destruction of the world.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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You're already debating by stating your argument and providing reasons for your opinion. Wether or not someone challenges you and you respond in kind, is not the point.

Thank you for making an actual point rather than just calling it flat out bullshit, though. I like the snopes community because arguments generally consist of more than "bullshit" "nu-uh" "uh-huh" so I get kind of upset when those types of discussions come up.

To be the one who responds to your point - I once again do not think Troberg was attempting to say that illegal file-sharing is the same thing as the holocaust. He used an unfortunate analogy, considering the stigma attached to mentioning Nazis on a web forum, but I still don't see where he said it's the same thing. Like was said, The Holocaust has become the atrocity to represent all atrocities, big and small. Say what you will about that, good or bad, but Troberg is not alone, nor do I question his intelligence or faculties for using the comparison, as it was not, IMO, a direct comparison.

I'm gonna withdraw from this topic and let it die now. The Pirate Bay is back up and will live to fight another day. No real reason to continue this discussion. Good Day.

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Midgard Dragon
-==UDIC==-
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The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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quote:
I wasn't referring to what anyone else said about it, I was referring to what you said about it. And you did call it bullshit, which was totally unnecessary if you're going to provide real argument. It just made you less credible by attempting at a blanket statement of how it was "bullshit." You could have as easily left out that one comment and it would have been much more credible. Calling something bullshit in a civilized debate on a web forum is akin to a child on a playground saying "neener neener neener, I'm rii-iight!"
Aside from the fact that you may not like the choice of phrase because it is a swear word, calling something bullshit is the equivalent of saying, "I think your argument is wrong." If calling something bullshit is also followed by an argument of why it is bullshit, then no it is not the equivalent of a whiny child on a playground. Funny you took issue with me using the word bullshit, but you never addressed the reason I said it was bullshit. If I said, "I enjoy hearing your argument but must respectfully air my disagreement with it, as it has numerous significant flaws which I would like to lay out if you would be kind enough to consider them," would that be better? I guess I am just lazy. Bullshit sums it up in one word and everyone knows what it means. I wouldn't normally use the word, except that the particular argument being posed struck me as being so ludicrous that the shoe fit too well for me to ignore it. I guess that when a site refers to its founders as an "anti-copyright" organization, names itself the Pirate Bay, and posts thousands of links to copyrighted material, the claim that they are "just posting links" and are therefore not responsible, strikes me as being one gigantic cop-out, to paraphase the word I used above. Or does someone here want to seriously claim that the creators of the Pirate Bay really just created the site so people could exchange copies of the latest shareware version of Spider Solitaire?

Anyways, Dara already claimed the original bullshit crack. I assumed you were talkimg about me because I referred to an argument as silly, and I figured you were just paraphrasing. But I kind of wished I used bullshit originally. It fits much better.

--------------------
Visit my blog, Websurdity... the Weird, the Bizarre, the Silly, the Absurd.

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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I've changed my mind.

I am willing to debate the issue of whether or not we're actually conscious marionettes operated by Sky-people with enormous invisible wires. I've had a couple of ideas as to how they'd go about it.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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I also have some ideas.

Sadly, the last time I tried to duplicate their efforts, it didn't work out so well. I got the wires on, but the invisibility part I just couldn't get right... and that's when I heard the sirens in the distance.

--------------------
Visit my blog, Websurdity... the Weird, the Bizarre, the Silly, the Absurd.

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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I think you'd probably need to sit on clouds or something, and just hide behind them pretending to be invisible.

Of course, then you have to develop cloud-steering technology.

Wait a minute: this could be why so many countries in the sunny, less cloudy equatorial parts of the world, are in near anarchy. It's more difficult for the Sky-people to control them because there's less clouds for them to hide behind.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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I've never seen any of these Sky-people, and I've been up above the clouds several times now.

Maybe they're invisible?

--------------------
I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Troberg, I don't understand this response. He suggested that you were trivializing the holocaust and your response included this.
Actually, it was one specific event a few years ago that triggered that comment. It was when the US was about to officially recognise the mass murder of Armenians and Anatolian Greeks by the Turks (1-2 million dead) as a genocide. That was blocked, mainly by two events:

* Turkey threatening to reduce cooperation with US, mainly military cooperation which USA needed in the area at the time.

* Israel issueing a statement that there had only been one true genocide and they would be offended if their genocide was diminished by giving the same description to other events.

To me, that is so much against the spirit of bringing these events into the light and making sure they will not happen again.

quote:
I think the confusion there stems from the fact that in Sweden there is a department simply called Utrikesdepartementet or 'The Department of Foreign Affairs'. I've seen the same use of 'the US foreign department' in a lot of Norwegian news papers.
How many foreign departments does the US have anyway? I haven't managed to find anything about it.

Exactly. The Swedish department is called Utrikesdepartementet, UD for short. The Swedish media refered to the US counterpart as the "American UD". I have now idea exactly which organization this translates to, and I don't care enough about the internal structure of the US government to make an educated guess.

quote:
The Swedish goverment signed the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works in 1904. (which is 85 years before the US bothered to sign it) -- so they most certainly know by now that what they signed was an agreement to protect the copyright on works of authors from other signatory countries in the same way it protects the copyright of its own nationals. Since a lot of the copyrights being violated are US copyrights, our government most certainly does have the right to tell your contry to put a stop to it. Apparently if your contry allows those kind of pirate sites to operate you are violating the treaty.
Once again, the site in question does not contain any copyrighted data. This has been tried before under Swedish law (I've given one example earlier) and found legal.

The US sure has a right to complain, but our minister of justice has no right to act on those complaints if they are not in accordance of Swedish law. In fact, he has no right to influence specific cases at all. And he sure as h*ll have no right to shut down 200 other servers while targeting a single server, or using the shutdown of the potentially dubious server as an excuse for shutting down servers with viewpoints he don't agree on. He is behaving like a cartoon character that uses dynamite and other extremely excessive force to swat a tiny mosquito.

We have signed the Bern convention, but our interpretation of how far responsibility spreads does not cover a link site.

Also, due to this issue, there is now a strong movement here for Sweden to withdraw from that. Polls show that only 7.5% of the population supports the current action.

quote:
Edit to ad. This is not a feedom of speach issue, no one is putting you in jail for ranting. This is about copyright, and people not being ripped off.
It would have been about copyright if only The Pirate Bay had been affected and the proper legal procedures were followed. Now, Piratbyrån and 200 other sites are affected and all legal procedure is out the window. Even the legal advisor of the Pirate Bay crew has been forced to leave DNA samples and threatened because he tries to represent them. It has been indicated that they may not be allowed to have the same defence lawyer. There is more than The Pirate Bay issue going on here.

quote:
Care to give an example? I can't think of one myself. Or do you mean to say that your OP was about an atrocity that is now being trivialized?
Se above.

quote:
We were discussing in the linked thread the effects of children's thumb-sucking, not adults' thumb-sucking. His totally, to me, inappropriate remark was distasteful. Fast forward to this statement, "I would not react as strongly, but I would consider it wrong, especially if many innocent sites were shut down at the same time.", implying that he did not consider child pornography to be as bad as innocent sites' being shut down because of more than likely illegal file-sharing, and. . .I suppose I did see a little too much red. But you see, the child porn bit did not originate with me in this thread.
I might remember wrong, but I don't recall children being mentioned at all before my comment.

You also misunderstand me slightly in my reasoning. I'll try again:

I'm not saying that innocent servers being shut down is worse than children being exploited. I just don't belive that the most effective way of helping the children is to attack links in the chain that are after they have already been exploited. The proper place to strike in order to help the children is to strike at the producers, and strike them hard and repeatedly. Once that first link in the chain is broken, the rest falls apart by itself. I even think that letting the sites operate in a false sense of security makes it easier to track down the bad guys/gals.

quote:
Don't refer to Israel as 'the Jews' again, please.
In the Eichmann case, it was israel who got him, but I think it's safe to assume that not only israeli citizens got their fair revenge. That was the cause of my wording in this case.

I'm very careful about the distinction between Jews and israel, and I think you can see that if you look through my various threads on related subjects.

quote:
I'm gonna withdraw from this topic and let it die now. The Pirate Bay is back up and will live to fight another day. No real reason to continue this discussion. Good Day.
But some 200 other servers are still missing and down. So is the backup servers and the backups stored on site. Many of these servers belong to companies which are now greatly inconvenienced and their only crime is having their servers in the same room as The Pirate Bay. Also among them are a half dozen or so sites promoting various political opinions.

The Pirate Bay and Piratbyrån is back up because they are technically competent and had their own backups in safe storage. Their high profile also meant that they got many offers from other ISP's and webhosts for free server space and capacity. The average customer who lost their server has no such competence, has no one offering them free stuff and depended on the web host to take care of that for them, and now the web host has lost everything they needed to fix thing for them. The police investigation will take a long time, previous cases has taken 1-2 years before the hardware is returned (often damaged and unworkable), so new expensive hardware has to be bought.

quote:
I think it's troubling that some indications are that the raid was politically-motivated--in the event, as per Wikipedia, Piratbyrån and the Pirate Bay have not been affiliated since 2004, and that alone makes the actions of the government here questionable. I worry that it's something like the destruction of Meigs Field--a highly questionable act that, because so few people actually cared, will be forgotten.
An excellent comparison! Everytime they get away with something like Meigs Field, the pain threshold is increased a little.

When someone does something wrong and illegal, he/she should have to face some consequences, ESPECIALLY if he/she is high up in the power hierarchy. The higher up, the more important it is to keep a tight supervision on them and make sure that they are maintaining a high moral standard. The people ruling us must be better than us at following the rules, not better at avoiding the rules.

----

A small side note:

While going out for lunch yesterday, I noticed that the small speaker's corner podium in my home town has been removed during the last few days. I don't think it's related to this issue (bureaucracy don't work that fast), but it's still an odd thing to do 3 months before an election.

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg

In the Eichmann case, it was israel who got him, but I think it's safe to assume that not only israeli citizens got their fair revenge. That was the cause of my wording in this case.



Wel, if you put it like that, then surely not only Jews got their fair revenge? What about Slavs, Gypsies and Homosexuals? So why should you highlight the Jews specifically? (Even better, how about not comparing this possibly somewhat undemocratic act to the slaughter of millions of people, but it appears that is too much to ask.)

quote:
I'm very careful about the distinction between Jews and israel, and I think you can see that if you look through my various threads on related subjects.


But surely, if this whole thread has been derailed by the fact that you haven't made this distinction in this instance, then you haven't been careful enough? Quite apart from the fact that 'careful' is an interesting choice of words anyway.

Regardless of the context, I'm afraid it's simply not something that can be clarified. It's an odious, hateful statement that you should retract and apologise for.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
Troberg, I don't understand this response. He suggested that you were trivializing the holocaust and your response included this.
Actually, it was one specific event a few years ago that triggered that comment. It was when the US was about to officially recognise the mass murder of Armenians and Anatolian Greeks by the Turks (1-2 million dead) as a genocide. That was blocked, mainly by two events:

* Turkey threatening to reduce cooperation with US, mainly military cooperation which USA needed in the area at the time.

* Israel issueing a statement that there had only been one true genocide and they would be offended if their genocide was diminished by giving the same description to other events.

To me, that is so much against the spirit of bringing these events into the light and making sure they will not happen again.

But we weren't talking about the Armenian genocide. We were talking about the Swedish government shutting down a file-sharing thread. Please explain how such an action is comparable to genocide.

quote:
The Swedish department is called Utrikesdepartementet, UD for short. The Swedish media refered to the US counterpart as the "American UD". I have now idea exactly which organization this translates to, and I don't care enough about the internal structure of the US government to make an educated guess.
It's not a question of whether you care about the internal structure of the US government: it's a question of whether you care about about the accuracy and understandability of your posts. When US snopesters pointed out that there was no "foreign department," you didn't even bother to say, "I'm sorry, I was quoting the Swedish newspaper reports. What does the US call the department that handles foreign affairs?" I can't speak for anyone else, but I would have been happy to answer you.

I'll also back up everything Dara has said: I, too, have found many of your posts to be tacitly anti-Semitic. Of course it's possible to oppose Israel without being anti-Semitic. It's also possible to oppose Israel precisely because one is anti-Semitic. Your posts in a number of threads have led me to believe that your motivation is the latter.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Dara
Wel, if you put it like that, then surely not only Jews got their fair revenge? What about Slavs, Gypsies and Homosexuals?

They also got slammed really bad, as did a large number of socialists, handicapped and people with mental disorders. However, Eichmann's prime concern was with the Jews.

quote:
Lainie
But we weren't talking about the Armenian genocide. We were talking about the Swedish government shutting down a file-sharing thread. Please explain how such an action is comparable to genocide.

We were a few steps into the discussion there. I responded to the accusation of diminishing the holocaust by using it as an atrocity symbol, and I tried to explain why it may be dangerous to put it on an untouchable piedestal. It was a huge atrocity, but we must not let it completely overshadow other atrocities to the point where they don't get noticed.

quote:
Lainie
It's not a question of whether you care about the internal structure of the US government: it's a question of whether you care about about the accuracy and understandability of your posts. When US snopesters pointed out that there was no "foreign department," you didn't even bother to say, "I'm sorry, I was quoting the Swedish newspaper reports. What does the US call the department that handles foreign affairs?"

You mean something like:

quote:
Troberg
I just translated from Swedish. Bureu of foreign affairs? Foreign service? Please enlighten me about the correct name.

Yeah, I should probably have done that.

quote:
Lainie
I'll also back up everything Dara has said: I, too, have found many of your posts to be tacitly anti-Semitic. Of course it's possible to oppose Israel without being anti-Semitic. It's also possible to oppose Israel precisely because one is anti-Semitic. Your posts in a number of threads have led me to believe that your motivation is the latter.

I'd like to defend myself and explain myself here, even though it's outside the scope of this thread:

I can explain exactly why I oppose israel, as I think this is the key to the matter.

I have lived in Jordan for an extended time and have many good friends there who have seen firsthand what the israelis are capable of, people who have been driven out of their land at gunpoint. I couldn't care less if the israelis are Jews, Christians, Bhuddists or martians, it's the actions of the nation and the leader that they have elected that offend me.

I care little for religion, I don't give a damn about race, the only time I care about gender is when I'm looking for sex (or at porn), but I do care about what people actually do. When I condemn someone, it's because of his/her actions, not what she is. As far as I can see, there is no other way to determine if someone is to be praised or criticised.

Besides, as I'm distinctly and actively pro-Arabic in that conflict, it's just plain stupid to call me anti-Semitic, as the Arabs are also considered part of the Semitic group.

I'm offended that you even imply such a thing.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
Lainie
But we weren't talking about the Armenian genocide. We were talking about the Swedish government shutting down a file-sharing thread. Please explain how such an action is comparable to genocide.

We were a few steps into the discussion there. I responded to the accusation of diminishing the holocaust by using it as an atrocity symbol, and I tried to explain why it may be dangerous to put it on an untouchable piedestal. It was a huge atrocity, but we must not let it completely overshadow other atrocities to the point where they don't get noticed.
I don't believe there's any danger of that, and I don't agree that the OP incident is an atrocity.

quote:
quote:
Lainie
It's not a question of whether you care about the internal structure of the US government: it's a question of whether you care about about the accuracy and understandability of your posts. When US snopesters pointed out that there was no "foreign department," you didn't even bother to say, "I'm sorry, I was quoting the Swedish newspaper reports. What does the US call the department that handles foreign affairs?"

You mean something like:

quote:
Troberg
I just translated from Swedish. Bureu of foreign affairs? Foreign service? Please enlighten me about the correct name.

Yeah, I should probably have done that.

My bad, I missed that. Had I seen it, I would have answered you.

quote:
I can explain exactly why I oppose israel, as I think this is the key to the matter.

I have lived in Jordan for an extended time and have many good friends there who have seen firsthand what the israelis are capable of, people who have been driven out of their land at gunpoint. I couldn't care less if the israelis are Jews, Christians, Bhuddists or martians, it's the actions of the nation and the leader that they have elected that offend me.

I care little for religion, I don't give a damn about race, the only time I care about gender is when I'm looking for sex (or at porn), but I do care about what people actually do. When I condemn someone, it's because of his/her actions, not what she is. As far as I can see, there is no other way to determine if someone is to be praised or criticised.[/qb]

Then why refer to Israel as "the Jews"? The word "Jew" describes ethnicity and/or religion, not behavior or even nationality.

quote:
Besides, as I'm distinctly and actively pro-Arabic in that conflict, it's just plain stupid to call me anti-Semitic, as the Arabs are also considered part of the Semitic group.
According to Dictionary.com, the definition of anti-semitism is:

quote:
1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.

But if you prefer, I can say that I find some of your posts tacitly anti-Jewish.

quote:
I'm offended that you even imply such a thing.
I didn't imply it, I stated it. And so did a couple of other posters. If several people are misunderstanding your posts in the same way, perhaps the problem is with what you are saying or with how you say it, rather than with those posters.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:

Besides, as I'm distinctly and actively pro-Arabic in that conflict, it's just plain stupid to call me anti-Semitic, as the Arabs are also considered part of the Semitic group.



You're being ridiculous. Pretty much everyone knows that Arabs are considered part of the Semitic group. Just like pretty much everyone knows that anti-semitism is defined in terms of prejudice towards the Jews. Semantics at this point is a fool's errand.

quote:
I'm offended that you even imply such a thing.
Is this a joke, that you're 'offended' because you think I think you're anti-arabic, or are you genuinely offended that I am inferring anti-Jewish sentiment from the phrase "The Jews got Eichmann; give us Bodstrom?" Either way, you don't seem to care very much who you offend, like all those bipolar snopesters who need a rule to make them behave or something. (I admit it, this could well be a mischaracterisation of Troberg's views. I genuinely couldn't understand the connection he was making between bipolar disorders and unacceptable behaviour on internet message boards in this thread.) Or like all the Jewish people who could possibly be offended by your T-shirt, but I don't suppose you care so much about that.

In either instance, I'm afraid I'll lose little sleep over what you consider offensive. It's likely to be so different from reality as to be neglible.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Perhaps it would help if anyone who is concerned that Troberg is anti-semitic posted links to the offensive threads, so that the rest of us can see.

Of course, if a snopester denies a deeply offensive slur like anti-semitism, I'd believe the snopester in the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary.

And of course it doesn't much matter if a snopester espouses horrible views anyway. All that matters is that those views are subjected to the usual scrutiny of these boards, free from ad hominem attacks, innuendo, or stalking. And that we abide by the guideline about civility, which personally I take to mean avoiding these things. But perhaps I am being unfashionable.

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Al Fizz:
Perhaps it would help if anyone who is concerned that Troberg is anti-semitic posted links to the offensive threads, so that the rest of us can see.

Of course, if a snopester denies a deeply offensive slur like anti-semitism, I'd believe the snopester in the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary.



I'm referring primarily to this thread, to be honest. I'm personally willing to believe that Troberg did not mean to cause offence with his "The Jews got Eichmann, give us Bodstrom" T-shirt, but I'd like him to tell me that he didn't mean to cause offence, and de facto recognise that his words were unwisely chosen. I keep giving him the chance to clarify, yet he seems too bloody-minded to concede that his choice of words were inordinately inadvisable.

Once again, I'm willing to believe that Troberg did not mean to cause offence, but I need him to tell me that. Which he won't.

Quite apart from the fact that this whole thing has turned quite ugly, no-one is talking about the thing that Troberg wanted to talk about, which is the loss of some kind of free speech in Sweden in some way for some reason which he doesn't think is appropriate, er like the Nazis did or something. I think it's important he recognise it as a tactical mistake, even if he can't accept that there's any kind of moral imperative that should stop one from saying such beastly things.

quote:
And of course it doesn't much matter if a snopester espouses horrible views anyway. All that matters is that those views are subjected to the usual scrutiny of these boards, free from ad hominem attacks, innuendo, or stalking. And that we abide by the guideline about civility, which personally I take to mean avoiding these things. But perhaps I am being unfashionable.
You're never unfashionable. V-neck and shirt is always a classic. But, to be honest, civility and me have always been wary of one another; we've made an uneasy compromise on one or other occasion, but it's not too long before the mask slips. It's not my fault; I'm quite common, you see, despite all my pretensions, and am prone to all the illnesses of the lower classes: lurgey, alcoholism, and of course incoherent choking rage that just makes you lunge at people. I read this in a book, so it's perfectly scientific.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg
* Israel issueing a statement that there had only been one true genocide and they would be offended if their genocide was diminished by giving the same description to other events.



I do not believe such a statement was ever issued, and I'm willing to bet that you can't find a copy of it. Call it a hunch.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Is this a joke, that you're 'offended' because you think I think you're anti-arabic
That answer was in response to Lainie, not you.

quote:
Once again, I'm willing to believe that Troberg did not mean to cause offence, but I need him to tell me that. Which he won't.
Make no mistake about it, I meant to offend as much as I could, but the offence was directed at Bodström, not the Jews. It usually works that way, when you compare two persons, it's offending to the least bad of the two.

----

Back on topic, Swedish paper Expressen writes the following (my translation):

"As a result of the raid, as what happened three weeks ago, a news site critical to the Russian politics in Chechnya was closed down.
It's the same public attourney then as now. And he knows that the site since then has strengthened its constitutional protection with a publishe certification. Yet its servers were seized.
The police action is remarkable. If these shutdowns are happening after pressure from foreign powers, in this case USA, three weeks ago Russia, then it's a first class scandal."

They also mention that the justice ombudsman (?), the man who is in charge of the department that investigates possible faults in the legal system, on his own initiative have started a full investigation of this matter.

They also bring up that there are indications that the real target was Piratbyrån, the same information that was previously mentioned in Dagens Industri. Remember, Piratbyrån is purely an opinion site.

Worth noting is that Expressen is on the right end of the political spectrum, and usually is the most negative towards piracy and piracy advocacy among the big papers.

Link: http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=602829 (Swedish)

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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