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Author Topic: The day freedom of speech was lost
Dr. Dave
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quote:
Originally posted by nwataya:
quote:
Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
As I recall Troberg did not. In fact I believe he argued that it was a good thing to prosecute the pastor. I'm not trying to be snarky here just to press the point, free speech must include speech that seems horrible, nasty,and evil because that is what those in power think of speech they try to ban. {snip}

Ah, Aptenodytes, thank you. I think I've found the thread myself now:

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Even if one does not agree with a political standpoint, one has to respect it. Supporting PLO is certainly a valid viewpoint. I see school children through my window (I work next door to a school) wearing political symbols openly without problem, the red star, Che Guevara, several Swedish parties, the Swedish flag, US flags, red flags, black flags, syndicalistic flags, pirate flags, anarchy A, religious symbols, and also the PLO. I've even seen an occasional one wearing a svastika, and as much as I despise that ideology, I have to respect his right to wear it.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Government in general and especially law enforcement shall never, ever act on what you think, only on what you do. Everything else is just an invitation to 1984.

and then in reference to the pastor:

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
If that is not preaching hate, I don't know what it takes. Still, such statements would have been all right if he would keep them to himself. However, he choose to deliver them in a public situation, and delivering them in such a way that it were obviously an attack on homosexuals as a group.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
One has to weigh the freedom of all people here, and stoking the flames of a war against other peoples' freedom is not the kind of freedom I feel ready to defend. Åke Green is a figurehead for the forces who physically attack gays. There is a line that has to be drawn somewhere, and I think he has passed that line.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
The basic idea is that your freedom ends where it have a greater negative inmpact on someone else's freedom than your positive gain. You can not have freedom at the expense of the freedom of other people.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Just talk is not a problem. Downright lies aimed at destroying a group or leading to physical attacks is a problem.

So it's okay to support the PLO, pirates, and Nazis, but pastors who declare "sexual deviants" (Green's word) to be sinful should be imprisoned. This is a division in free speech that I find somewhat arbitrary and suspect, and I think you might want to reevaluate it with the growing restrictions in free speech that Sweden seems to be adopting.

Based on what you quoted, I think it is very clear that Troberg said he supports free speech of ideas, but not inciting violence against a group, no? I do not really find him to be hipocritical in that. An individual in Sweeden "supporting" the PLO is not inciting suicide bombers in Israel, nor is one wearing a swastika 60 years late (he might be inciting violence against himself, but that is another story. Seriously, though, preaching "we must eliminate the Jews from Sweden by any means" would be, buut that is different than wearing a hateful symbol.) I think he is saying that preaching intolerance is OK, but preaching specific violecne is not. Nothing arbitratry about it.
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Aptenodytes_Forsteriis
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Thanks Nwataya. What forum was it in?

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Kitten in the rain
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You know what? You may have a valid issue here, Troburg, but the constant references to the Nazis, the holocost, and the WTC bombing aren't winning you any sympathy with me. This is a serious matter, but it's not the holocost.

Further, publishing the personal information of the police involved in the raid isn't very helpful, either. They're not the ones who decided to do this. It's their JOB. They were just doing their job. Hell, they might have even been lied to and told that the people running the servers were dangerous to society or something, you don't know.

If the Pirate Bay is anything at all like bit torrent, then there is a -lot- of copyrighted material being shared. Boyfriend in the Rain used to use bit torrent all the time (I finally made him stop because it was slowing our connection the hell down and giving him all sorts of nasty adware that was slowing it down further) and guess what he used it for? Downloading music, whole movies, and computer games. Oh, plus .pdf files of gaming books.

The sheer traffic of data that he was downloading, burning, and deleting finally fried his hard drive not once but twice, which also might have something to do with why he finally stopped. [Razz]

Now, warez sites have existed way back since my days of dialing into little dialup servers with my 2400 baud rate modem, but a couple of substantial things have changed since then. The first is that connection speeds are much faster, allowing people to download and upload far more information. The second is that the software to do so is much more widely available. Back in the days of warez sites and usergroups, you had to know someone to get in. This severely limited the volume of people trading pirated material. Now, just type 'bit torrent' into a search engine. It's a serious problem, and no matter how unfair the media companies are being with regards to setting prices for DVDs and music, that doesn't excuse the kinds of breaking of the law that happens.

Anyway, point being, I don't feel I'm getting the whole story here. I feel that an action has been taken, perhaps a wrong one, but not one that's totally unexpected nor inexcusable. Certainly nothing on the level of the mass extermination of millions of people.

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prof. yanaibara
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dave:
Based on what you quoted, I think it is very clear that Troberg said he supports free speech of ideas, but not inciting violence against a group, no? I do not really find him to be hipocritical in that. An individual in Sweeden "supporting" the PLO is not inciting suicide bombers in Israel, nor is one wearing a swastika 60 years late (he might be inciting violence against himself, but that is another story. Seriously, though, preaching "we must eliminate the Jews from Sweden by any means" would be, buut that is different than wearing a hateful symbol.) I think he is saying that preaching intolerance is OK, but preaching specific violecne is not. Nothing arbitratry about it.

It is arbitrary because as far as anyone has shown, Ake Green never preached specific violence at all. Troberg quoted what he seemed to think were Green's worst statements, and none of them said anything about doing anything bad to homosexuals or any other "sexual deviants". From what Troberg quoted, all Green said was that there's a lot of sexual deviancy, and it is sinful and leads to bad things. He didn't seem to say that anyone should do anything bad to them at all. Just referencing the PLO or Nazis is supporting far more violence than anything that I've seen quoted from Ake Green.

Edited to add link to previous thread:

FBI Questions High School Student Over 'PLO' Doodle

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away...

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Aptenodytes_Forsteriis
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Nwataya,

That was a vicious spanking you just gave me.

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by Kitten in the rain:
You know what? You may have a valid issue here, Troburg, but the constant references to the Nazis, the holocost, and the WTC bombing aren't winning you any sympathy with me. This is a serious matter, but it's not the holocost.

I suspect you are misreading the thread. nwataya searched back and found a previous thread (which he didn't link) and pulled quotes by Troberg from that thread and posted them into this thread. Troberg has not brought up the Holocaust or the Nazies in this thread. The thread that those quotes came from concerned hate speech against homosexuals by a Swedish clergyman.

Edited because I didn't remember correctly....

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Lainie
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Actually, Sara, Troberg has made at least two allusions to the Holocaust in this thread:

quote:
I'll be wearing a T-shirt made for the occasion with the text (in Swedish) "The Jews got Eichmann. Give us Bodström!".
quote:
Apparently, the US foreign department contacted its Swedish counterpart, demanding a (and this is a direct quote!) "final solution on the Pirate Bay issue". I think I've heard the phrase "final solution" before...


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prof. yanaibara
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten in the rain:
You know what? You may have a valid issue here, Troburg, but the constant references to the Nazis, the holocost, and the WTC bombing aren't winning you any sympathy with me. This is a serious matter, but it's not the holocost.

I suspect you are misreading the thread. nwataya searched back and found a previous thread (which he didn't link) and pulled quotes by Troberg from that thread and posted them into this thread. Troberg has not brought up the Holocaust or the Nazies in this thread. The thread that those quotes came from concerned hate speech against homosexuals by a Swedish clergyman.

Edited because I didn't remember correctly....

Hey! I linked the thread well before you posted this comment. [Razz]

But Troberg did bring up the Nazis in this thread.

1) He said he was going to wear a shirt reading "The Jews got Eichmann. Give us Bodström!"

2) He also said, "I think I've heard the phrase "final solution" before..."

3) He also said, "It's not within my mentality to be the last one they come for." (although to be fair, he's just replying to a Nazi reference that somebody else brought up).

So he's certainly brought them up. I personally don't have a problem with him doing it though, except that I'm assuming the "final solution" part was just a joke.


Spanked! (btw - what it proper etiquette towards posts that get spanked? Should I erase the content? Erase it in part? Just acknowledge the spanking?)

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away...

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by nwataya:
So he's certainly brought them up. I personally don't have a problem with him doing it though, except that I'm assuming the "final solution" part was just a joke.

I think it's hyperbole, to put it nicely, to compare shutting down a filesharing site to the Holocaust. And if "final solution" was a joke, it wasn't funny, either.

quote:
Spanked! (btw - what it proper etiquette towards posts that get spanked? Should I erase the content? Erase it in part? Just acknowledge the spanking?)
Acknowledging the spanking is sufficient. [Big Grin]

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abbubmah
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dave:
A link to copyrighted material on the copyright holder's site- for example, you link to an article in the NY Times, but your link points to the NY Ties site, or you link to a song on some band's official site- is fine.

A link to another site that is violating the copyright may infact not be OK. There are fair use regulations, and permission is given, etc.

Yes, but to prevent that, effectively, would be to completely destroy the way the internet currently works. A shortcut to a page or file on a site bypasses the need for "drilling down" into material to find what you want. I have seen some sites that take you to their main page no matter what, but it becomes very annoying.

To disallow links to files or other direct content is possible, via passwords, etc. But, this only works for the law-abiding netizens. Private servers and shared links will always be around as long as everyone has open access to the Internet.

Heck, all the torrent sites could go away, and the locations could still be forwarded in email. Or newsgroups...

Remember newsgroups? Alive and well, doing what Piratebay is doing with Torrent. Completely decentralized and anonymous, if you want it to be. Yet, there is no obvious effort underway to shut down file sharing on newsgroups, that I am aware of anyway. Yet, most major ISPs carry them, and store the files, and are in much more violation of copyright laws than Piratebay's ISP.

Oh, and if that goes away, then there's personal sharing... Why do you think google mail has a 1 gb mailbox? You can send 2 CD images to a mailbox that's empty. Of course, "they" are now monitoring google... perhaps it's TFH time, and the whole google mail setup is a sting to nail copyright infringers...

ham "lalalalala! I can't hear your!!!!" bubba

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
Actually, Sara, Troberg has made at least two allusions to the Holocaust in this thread:

quote:
I'll be wearing a T-shirt made for the occasion with the text (in Swedish) "The Jews got Eichmann. Give us Bodström!".
quote:
Apparently, the US foreign department contacted its Swedish counterpart, demanding a (and this is a direct quote!) "final solution on the Pirate Bay issue". I think I've heard the phrase "final solution" before...

But "the constant references to the Nazis, the holocost, and the WTC bombing" quotes in this thread came from another thread.

If some people believe this is a flaw in Troberg's posting and that's what Kitten was referring to, I was unaware and stand corrected.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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prof. yanaibara
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
But "the constant references to the Nazis, the holocost, and the WTC bombing" quotes in this thread came from another thread.

Are you sure? Where? I don't see it.

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away...

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by nwataya:
Hey! I linked the thread well before you posted this comment. [Razz]


I don't know when you finally supplied the link because it was added as an ETA to another post. It was not (and still isn't) linked in the post where you originally quoted it. [Razz] yourself.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Kitten in the rain
Jingle Bell Hock


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I was referring to the original comments of Troberg's to the tune of the tee shirt, etc. To be honest, I think that the comparison is not only ridiculous, it's inappropriate. To compare what the Nazis did to shutting down a file sharing site that was linking to copyrighted material belittles the enormous atrocity committed by the Nazis.

Further, Troberg misrepresented what was going on in his first post. His post strongly indicated that the reason that the ISP had been raided was because PirateBay was speaking in favor of changing copyright laws, as in the motive of the raid was solely to quash free speech. He said virtually nothing about illegal file sharing. He also implied that the political parties who were getting involved were getting involved because free speech was being quashed, when all of the articles on the subject that I've found indicate that they're getting involved because A) there's suspicion that the US government might have had a hand in this and people are generally distrustful of the US government overreaching its authority (rightly so) and B) there's suspicion that a minister may have improperly ordered the raid. Ministers apparantly aren't allowed to tell the police what to do.

It might be a serious issue. It might not. But I'm not going to reward sensationalism by taking it seriously.

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by nwataya:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
But "the constant references to the Nazis, the holocost, and the WTC bombing" quotes in this thread came from another thread.

Are you sure? Where? I don't see it.
You don't see what?

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Kitten in the rain:
I was referring to the original comments of Troberg's to the tune of the tee shirt, etc. To be honest, I think that the comparison is not only ridiculous, it's inappropriate. To compare what the Nazis did to shutting down a file sharing site that was linking to copyrighted material belittles the enormous atrocity committed by the Nazis.

Oh, ok.... You weren't misreading the thread. I only said that because I double checked the thread. I went back just to make sure those other comments were quotes from another thread and not something that I had overlooked in this thread.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by DemonWolf:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Sounds familiar. I guess NOFX used this as inspiration for Re-gaining Unconsciousness? Both make me very glad there are people who realize that everyone is eventually going to be someone's "okay to hate" person.

quote:
First they put away the dealers,

keep our kids safe and off the street.

Then they put away the prostitutes,

keep married men cloistered at home.

Then they shooed away the bums,

then they beat and bashed the queers,

turned away asylum-seekers,

fed us suspicions and fears.

We didn´t raise our voice,

we didn´t make a fuss.

It´s funny there was no one left to notice

when they came for us.

Looks like witches are in season,

you better fly your flag and be aware

of anyone who might fit the description,

diversity is now our biggest fear.

Now with our conversations tapped

and our differences exposed,

how ya supposed to love your neighbor

with our minds and curtains closed?

We used to worry ´bout big brother,

now we got a big father and an even bigger muther.

*snip*



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The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Remember newsgroups? Alive and well, doing what Piratebay is doing with Torrent. Completely decentralized and anonymous, if you want it to be. Yet, there is no obvious effort underway to shut down file sharing on newsgroups, that I am aware of anyway. Yet, most major ISPs carry them, and store the files, and are in much more violation of copyright laws than Piratebay's ISP.

Oh, and if that goes away, then there's personal sharing... Why do you think google mail has a 1 gb mailbox? You can send 2 CD images to a mailbox that's empty. Of course, "they" are now monitoring google... perhaps it's TFH time, and the whole google mail setup is a sting to nail copyright infringers...

As someone else pointed out, warez sites, newsgroups and the like have existed for quite a while. USENET has never been targeted partially because it is difficult to target for the reasons you mentioned, and because it is still used by a relatively small amount of people when compared to a site found on the world wide web. But let's not confuse the issue: file sharing on USENET is illegal. The fact that the police, MPAA, RIAA, etc, haven't targeted USENET does not change the fact that it is illegal to use it to share copyrighted material. Like any group, copyright holders have to pick their battles. There is always going to be a certain amount of private sharing, and I am pretty sure that most publishers have accepted that. But Bittorrent sites have made it possible for almost anybody to download hundreds of files very quickly and easily. If the torrent sites went away, sure the torrents would still exist. But without the centralized location, it would be much harder for most users to find the trackers to download the files.

In any event, the bottom line is that the copyright holders have a right to demand that their material not be posted for free download. Sharing copyrighted material is illegal without permission of the copyright holders. Pointing out places where it may not be possible to stop file sharing does change the fact that it is illegal.

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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5041848.stm
quote:
Cyber vandals have attacked the website of the Swedish police, forcing it to shut down.
http://p2pnet.net/story/8948
quote:
The hack follows the Hollywood-initiated attack on ThePirateBay.org but, "It is not clear whether the attack is linked to the police action against The Pirate Bay," says the BBC,


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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Just a few quick notes before I'm off to Stockholm.

quote:
As I recall Troberg did not. In fact I believe he argued that it was a good thing to prosecute the pastor. I'm not trying to be snarky here just to press the point, free speech must include speech that seems horrible, nasty,and evil because that is what those in power think of speech they try to ban.
And I think I was proven correct when over 200 gays recieved death threats on the very same day he was released...

quote:
It is still not clear whether or not hosting a bittorrent file that points to a copyrighted product is legal or illegal.
Bittorrent has not been tested, but other systems for linking has (mainly pure HTML links).

quote:
Not sure what this means
"the US foreign department"
but I guess we'll all just have to wait for the details if and when they do come out.

I just translated from Swedish. Bureu of foreign affairs? Foreign service? Please enlighten me about the correct name.

quote:
It depends on how you define "involved." The Pirate Bay most definitely provided people with a means to download copyrighted material. They didn't host the material, but they did provide links to download it. Hence the legal gray area.
The same argument could be made against eBay or the postal system.

Also, note that the other sites attacked, which recent quotes has shown to be the main target, did not even have links to copyrighted material, they just provided a space for a debate for a changed intellectual property law, usually by promoting alternatives (like the a new logo to show that you approved of copying your works) and providing news coverage of related events.

quote:
Just to clarify again, that the US requested, discussed, whatever is quite comon place between countries for this sort of thing- whenever trade representatives meet, what do you think they discuss?
I don't blame the US, I blame the Swedish minister of justice for being so eager to follow their advice that he did not care about Swedish law.

quote:
I can post a link to copyrighted material. Am I responsible for those who click on the link?

Oh, and:

According to Swedish Television's news programme, Rapport, the action was the result of contact between the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) and the White House.

Oh my god! He posted a link to copyrighted material! [Smile]

quote:
Further, publishing the personal information of the police involved in the raid isn't very helpful, either. They're not the ones who decided to do this. It's their JOB. They were just doing their job.
But htey DID the job. They could have walked away, they could have switched sides and stopped the servers from being taken, but they chose not to. "Just obeying orders" did not float in Nürnberg, it still does not float. We expect the police to have a higher moral standard than the rest of the population, and that includes not following an illegal order.

quote:
So he's certainly brought them up. I personally don't have a problem with him doing it though, except that I'm assuming the "final solution" part was just a joke.
No, it was my reflection that it was very poor taste for whoever said it from the US side to use a term coined by Hitler for the removal of some web sites.

quote:
Further, Troberg misrepresented what was going on in his first post. His post strongly indicated that the reason that the ISP had been raided was because PirateBay was speaking in favor of changing copyright laws, as in the motive of the raid was solely to quash free speech. He said virtually nothing about illegal file sharing.
Once again, no illegal material exists on that server. Even if it did, that would not be reason enough to shut down dozens of other servers that only contain pure rhetoric and no links to any material at all.

quote:
He also implied that the political parties who were getting involved were getting involved because free speech was being quashed, when all of the articles on the subject that I've found indicate that they're getting involved because A) there's suspicion that the US government might have had a hand in this and people are generally distrustful of the US government overreaching its authority (rightly so) and B) there's suspicion that a minister may have improperly ordered the raid. Ministers apparantly aren't allowed to tell the police what to do.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned the election year several times. Also, the reason for the parties involvement differs between the parties. We can't have parties agreeing on an election year, can we?

---

Just a minute ago, The Pirate Bay was once again up and running on it's new home in another country. They plan to add additional servers in two more countries to make sure it keeps running until this has blown over.

--------------------
/Troberg

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Just a few quick notes before I'm off to Stockholm.

quote:
As I recall Troberg did not. In fact I believe he argued that it was a good thing to prosecute the pastor. I'm not trying to be snarky here just to press the point, free speech must include speech that seems horrible, nasty,and evil because that is what those in power think of speech they try to ban.
And I think I was proven correct when over 200 gays recieved death threats on the very same day he was released...


Uh, no. That does not prove you in any way correct. Even if it did happen, and I must remind everyone that this is an entirely unsupported allegation made by a thoroughly unreliable poster, there is no evidence of cause and effect here.

Be that as it may, how can you clearly endorse one limitation on the freedom of speech while at the same time campaigning so vitriolically against this limitation on the freedom of speech? It seems inconsistent and somewhat hypocritical.
quote:

quote:
Further, publishing the personal information of the police involved in the raid isn't very helpful, either. They're not the ones who decided to do this. It's their JOB. They were just doing their job.
But htey DID the job. They could have walked away, they could have switched sides and stopped the servers from being taken, but they chose not to. "Just obeying orders" did not float in Nürnberg, it still does not float. We expect the police to have a higher moral standard than the rest of the population, and that includes not following an illegal order.
[/quote][/qb]


I'm going to controversially assert that there are enough clear differences between raiding the offices of an enterprise of dubious legality and, oh, I don't know, the attempt at the extinction of an entire race for this to be a slightly less black-and-white issue than you suppose. I know I'm going out on a limb here, but that's me, all bombast and bluster. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
quote:
So he's certainly brought them up. I personally don't have a problem with him doing it though, except that I'm assuming the "final solution" part was just a joke.
No, it was my reflection that it was very poor taste for whoever said it from the US side to use a term coined by Hitler for the removal of some web sites.


We don't know for sure if that's what was said. We only have your unsupported word for it, and I have already explained what that is worth on this board. But, let's imagine that this horrendous thing was said, just for a moment. I certainly agree with Troberg that it is in very poor taste. I would humbly submit, however, that the guy who wants to go to the protest wearing a "T-shirt made for the occasion with the text (in Swedish) "The Jews got Eichmann. Give us Bodström!"." doesn't get to make judgments on what is or is not poor taste.

To be honest, I'm somewhat concerned and perplexed by your eagerness to shoehorn anti-Jewish sentiment into this argument. It isn't about the Jews, as far as I'm aware, and your repeated references to them really do not help your argument.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


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The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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quote:
The same argument could be made against eBay or the postal system.
How do you figure. Neither eBay nor the Postal Service intentionally provide millions of people with the means of receiving illegally copied copyrighted material. I suppose I could copy thousands of CDs and send them through the postal service to people, but I would have to do it without them finding out. At least in the U.S., distributing thousands of illegally copied products can constitute mail fraud. I also know eBay will shut down the accounts of sellers who are selling pirated games and movies.

quote:
Also, note that the other sites attacked, which recent quotes has shown to be the main target, did not even have links to copyrighted material, they just provided a space for a debate for a changed intellectual property law, usually by promoting alternatives (like the a new logo to show that you approved of copying your works) and providing news coverage of related events.
I haven't seen any of these recent quotes. It would be helpful if you posted a few of them for us. None of the English-language news sources I have read on this raid mention any other sites other than the Pirate Bay being targeted. According to one article I read (link below) the site that you said was the main target, Piratbyran, is the group that founded and runs The Pirate Bay. The Piratbyran website seems to be their "advocacy" website, while the Pirate Bay is their file sharing site. It seems misleading to say that the Piratbyran site was "the main target" when the Piratbyran is the group that runs the Pirate Bay.
The Pirate Bay: Here to Stay?

quote:
But htey DID the job. They could have walked away, they could have switched sides and stopped the servers from being taken, but they chose not to. "Just obeying orders" did not float in Nürnberg, it still does not float. We expect the police to have a higher moral standard than the rest of the population, and that includes not following an illegal order.
Contrary to what you keep saying, I have yet to see anything that makes this a black and white situation where the police definitely should have refused to do their job. The Pirate Bay is of dubious legal status, and is undoubtedly knowingly allowing and promoting the illegal downloading of copyrighted material. You may disagree with the raid, but to say that this is a clear cut "illegal order" is rediculous.

quote:
Once again, no illegal material exists on that server. Even if it did, that would not be reason enough to shut down dozens of other servers that only contain pure rhetoric and no links to any material at all.
It does if all those servers were run by the same group that runs the Pirate Bay. As I mentioned before, the "no illegal material exists on that server" argument is silly. The Pirate Bay, by its name alone, is obviously not bashful about the fact that it allows people to download copyrighted material. If the site didn't exist, most regular users would have no idea how to find a bittorrent tracker.

Let's try a new scenario here. What if a bittorrent site did the same thing as the Pirate Bay only with, say, child pornography? Let's say someone opened up a bittorrent site called "The Lolita Lair," where millions of people could easily download child pornography. Same deal: none of the child pornography would be hosted on the bittorrent site. The site would merely be providing links to the trackers to allow people to download the child pornography.

Would you participate in a protest after that site was shut down?

--------------------
Visit my blog, Websurdity... the Weird, the Bizarre, the Silly, the Absurd.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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OK, I'm back. I missed the demonstrations as I had some unexpected car issues that forced me to turn back. Crap! I even brought my new camera to document the event! Double crap! At least I got some money for the car.

I'm waiting for the news reports to come in, but so far it seems like it goes off peacefully. Four political parties are supporting the demonstrations, three of them major parties.

quote:
Uh, no. That does not prove you in any way correct. Even if it did happen, and I must remind everyone that this is an entirely unsupported allegation made by a thoroughly unreliable poster, there is no evidence of cause and effect here.

Be that as it may, how can you clearly endorse one limitation on the freedom of speech while at the same time campaigning so vitriolically against this limitation on the freedom of speech? It seems inconsistent and somewhat hypocritical.

Correct, it's not proof. I was writing faster than I was thinking there. It is, however, strong enough indication for me to consider him dangerous.

The difference is that in one case, people are recieving threats to their very lives (gays are attacked on a regular basis due to rhetoric such as this), and in the other a perfectly harmless opinion is attacked.

quote:
I'm going to controversially assert that there are enough clear differences between raiding the offices of an enterprise of dubious legality and, oh, I don't know, the attempt at the extinction of an entire race for this to be a slightly less black-and-white issue than you suppose.
I'm not comparing size of atrocity, I'm merely stating that the "Only obeyed orders" defense was proved worthless at Nürnberg. To my knowledge, that was the first time this was really put to test and a definitive answer was given.

quote:
To be honest, I'm somewhat concerned and perplexed by your eagerness to shoehorn anti-Jewish sentiment into this argument. It isn't about the Jews, as far as I'm aware, and your repeated references to them really do not help your argument.
?

I have not written anything anti-Jewish here, unless, of course you believe that bad things can only happen to Jews and saying differently will reflect bad on them.

quote:
Neither eBay nor the Postal Service intentionally provide millions of people with the means of receiving illegally copied copyrighted material. I suppose I could copy thousands of CDs and send them through the postal service to people, but I would have to do it without them finding out. At least in the U.S., distributing thousands of illegally copied products can constitute mail fraud. I also know eBay will shut down the accounts of sellers who are selling pirated games and movies.
How would the postal service know? They are prohibited by law from opening any mail.

eBay shutting down auctions for stolen goods? Perhaps occasionally to give them plausible denial, but don't for a moment believe they get a significant part.

quote:
It seems misleading to say that the Piratbyran site was "the main target" when the Piratbyran is the group that runs the Pirate Bay.
Partially the same people, but different servers. If I drive to fast, do the police have a right to take my other car? That's not the way it works in Sweden. They could (perhaps) shut down The Pirate Bay and (perhaps) arrest the operators, but there is no justification for shutting down Piratbyrån.

Also, they took all the servers in the server hall (Btw, what I have refered to as ISP was a web host, not a complete ISP.). Servers that belonged to other people, not even involved with The Pirate Bay or Piratbyrån. Some contained material of the same kind as Piratbyrån (ie opinion articles), some belonged to completely different sites and even companies, including the web host. How can that be justified?

quote:
I haven't seen any of these recent quotes. It would be helpful if you posted a few of them for us.
Sadly, I can only find them in Swedish.

News report on Swedish national TV:
http://svt.se/content/1/c6/60/20/92/pirate19.asx

My translation of the statement:

"After lobbying from american economic interests lobby organisation MPAA, the Swedish foreign department has been contacted by the american foreign department and explained that a final solution for the Pirate Bay question must be implemented. After this, Swedish representatives traveled to USA to learn how that is best done and what Sweden needs to do. When they return, they inform Thomas Bodström (minister of justice), whi indicates that something must be done. Police and public attourney answers that the legal situation is shaky and there is too little substance to act.

At that time, Thomas Bodström intevenes and decides to do some illegal manipulation and ORDERS his secretary of state to order swedish authorities (national chief of police and national attourney) to act anyway. They, in turn order local attourney and police to procede with the requested final solution of the Pirate Bay issue. This is strictly forbidden. Ministers are not allowed to interfere in specific cases."

Similar content can be found here (all in Swedish):
http://sydsvenskan.se/nojen/article162997.ece
http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/inrikes/did_12823433.asp
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=549487&previousRenderType=6

Article in daily economic newspaper with a representative of the Swedish counterpart of MPAA and RIAA:
http://www.di.se/Nyheter/?page=%2fAvdelningar%2fArtikel.aspx%3fArticleId%3d2006%5c06%5c01%5c189610%26SectionId%3dEttan
http://www.metro.se/se/article/tt/2006/06/01/fildelarbrott/index.xml

Highlight:

"We at Antipiratbyrån has mainly acted against the intellectual property-hostile organization Piratbyrån, who is behind the site. The Pirate Bay are at the bottom of the chain, even if it has caused significant damage."

When I look at that article now, he claims to have been misquoted. If that's true or not is anyone's guess. He has been known to say stupid things before, so he may very well have blurted it out.

Worth noting is that these articles come from papers that span all over the political scale.

quote:
Contrary to what you keep saying, I have yet to see anything that makes this a black and white situation where the police definitely should have refused to do their job. The Pirate Bay is of dubious legal status, and is undoubtedly knowingly allowing and promoting the illegal downloading of copyrighted material. You may disagree with the raid, but to say that this is a clear cut "illegal order" is rediculous.
I agree, The Pirate Bay is not clear cut. Linking has been tried in court, but not Bittorrent.

However, the other servers taken, forcing the lawyer representing the arrested to leave a DNA sample, refusing them contact with a lawyer, threatening their lawyer in an attempt to get him to drop the case and the inproper manipulation from the minister of justice is far outside the realms of Swedish law, so far that the officers only obeying orders should be arrested and tried as criminals.

quote:
It does if all those servers were run by the same group that runs the Pirate Bay.
They were not. Two servers out of an entire server hall belonged to them, and even then, only one of the servers was controversial. The rest had no connection at all to them. Yet, all servers were taken without the consent of the owners. This is illegal in Sweden, even if it's the police and even if they intend to give them back.

quote:
As I mentioned before, the "no illegal material exists on that server" argument is silly. The Pirate Bay, by its name alone, is obviously not bashful about the fact that it allows people to download copyrighted material. If the site didn't exist, most regular users would have no idea how to find a bittorrent tracker.
That has nothing at all to do with the issue. As far as it has been tested under Swedish law, you are only responsible for material on your server. You can never be responsible for material you link to on other servers. If it helps someone or not is not relevant to the issue.

This was tested a few years ago when someone did some creative photoshopping with the royal family and some porno. The image was then cut up into tiny pieces of just a few pixels each, none of them large enough to be identifiable. These partial images were spread over a large number of servers, and one server posted a web page that, through linking to them, put it together as a viewable image by placing the partial images in a table grid. It went to court, but it was decided that no crime was committed since no one had any sensitive images and the front site just linked to what others had.

This is a very similar case.

But, once again, the big issues are in the way this raid was conducted and the shutting down of sites that contained no illegal material but contained uncomfortable opinions.

quote:
Let's try a new scenario here. What if a bittorrent site did the same thing as the Pirate Bay only with, say, child pornography? (snip)

Would you participate in a protest after that site was shut down?

I would not react as strongly, but I would consider it wrong, especially if many innocent sites were shut down at the same time.

This is even if I, for the sake of the argument, forget that I believe that child pornography should be stopped at the source, in the production link of the chain, and that a site like that would make it easier to track those bastards down.

----

I notice some confusion in this issue. Let me make one thing clear:

What makes us upset is not primarily The Pirate Bay. It's the other sites that were shut down even though they were clearly legal, and worse yet, were clearly opinion based sites. It is also the way the police and justice department has blatantly disregarded Swedish law.

Basically, the police and justice department has made a huge, misdirected action which basically hurts innocents with a very little chance of reaching an objective, an objective that previous court rulings indicate probably not even is a crime. They are working outside the law, and when the police is on the wrong side of the law, who can you trust?

--------------------
/Troberg

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Gibbie
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I feel the need to point out, just because someone says "final solution" doesn't mean they are quoting Hitler. It just means they want an answer, at last. In fact I'd be much more inclined to believe that the US official was quoting Regis Philbin and asked for the "final answer" and it just got mistranslated.

As for the police seizing unrelated servers, I've found that in these situations officials don't always know so much about "teh Internets" and just grab everything. I'm sure everyone will get their stuff back and maybe even a little compensation (in this country I know the person who was seized would probably sue). While it's not correct I hardly think it's a symptom of a vast corrupt system with vigilante cops working the wrong side of the law. I do think you are overreacting just a tad.

Gibbie

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If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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A quote from this thread.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I don't find it incredible, as a retainer can move the teeth with very little, but (more or less) constant pressure. On the other hand, it is also a handy thing to use to get a child to stop sucking their thumb.

Someone has to bring this up, so it may as well be me: What about oral sex? [Smile]

Okay, that's just yucky. We are talking about children here, for Pete's sake. I would hope that by the time one begins to engage in oral sex, his/her teeth are already permanent and strong enough to withstand said oral sex. So, you see, someone didn't have to bring this up.
It may seem that this has nothing to do with this thread, and I suppose that it does not; however, it does point out why some of us do not have much respect for Troberg's, in my opinion, rather odd posts. It may also shine a little light on his true thoughts about child pornography. Or not. Just a wild guess. It is quite possible that I misinterpreted. If so, I sit corrected.

--------------------
"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Signora Del Drago:
A quote from this thread.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I don't find it incredible, as a retainer can move the teeth with very little, but (more or less) constant pressure. On the other hand, it is also a handy thing to use to get a child to stop sucking their thumb.

Someone has to bring this up, so it may as well be me: What about oral sex? [Smile]

Okay, that's just yucky. We are talking about children here, for Pete's sake. I would hope that by the time one begins to engage in oral sex, his/her teeth are already permanent and strong enough to withstand said oral sex. So, you see, someone didn't have to bring this up.
It may seem that this has nothing to do with this thread, and I suppose that it does not; however, it does point out why some of us do not have much respect for Troberg's, in my opinion, rather odd posts. It may also shine a little light on his true thoughts about child pornography. Or not. Just a wild guess. It is quite possible that I misinterpreted. If so, I sit corrected.
You're right, it does have nothing to do with this thread. All I see is a quote with an off-the-cuff remark about oral sex, that happened to be involved in a thread about children. Anyone who makes a comment about children and sex, especially if it's just jokingly (see the smiley?), is not a pedophile. The comment in reply to him was a total overreaction. If anything, you just made me side with Troberg even more.

Midgard "has sex with children" Dragon ( [Wink] <-- hint at joking nature of the comment)

--------------------
Midgard Dragon
-==UDIC==-
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Baikal
Happy Holly Days


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But it does allow us to brush up on our ad hominems. Since that's really what it is, it having no bearing whatsoever on Troberg's points here and all. It may not matter much; I mean, the context in which child pornography was brought up was pretty much a red herring anyway--like 'terrorism,' 'child pornography' is roundly hated enough to be a useful hot-button to press when one wants to regulate access to information or prevent people from having a little too much freedom.

But ad hominems are fun anyway.

-Baikal, who has been seen consorting with known criminals--HASN'T HE?!

--------------------
I'm just a typical American boy from a typical American town.

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Exactly. WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?

I mean, all those people on bash.org making comments about child porn and molestation MUST be really doing it! RIGHT?

--------------------
Midgard Dragon
-==UDIC==-
MidgardDragon's MySpace

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
As for the police seizing unrelated servers, I've found that in these situations officials don't always know so much about "teh Internets" and just grab everything. I'm sure everyone will get their stuff back and maybe even a little compensation (in this country I know the person who was seized would probably sue).
Usually, it takes 1-2 years before the stuff is returned, and usually the installations are damaged beyond repair. With a waiting time that long, you have no choice but to shell out money for new machines.

In Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter, the police claimed they seized over 200 servers (in an attempt to get one...). If they are that incompetent, they need to get some education before they act. They even seized backups. I've seen statistics that claim that companies that suffer a massive data loss have a 4/5 bankruptcy rate within one year, so that is not a small thing.

Article: http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=549952&previousRenderType=6

quote:
It may seem that this has nothing to do with this thread, and I suppose that it does not; however, it does point out why some of us do not have much respect for Troberg's, in my opinion, rather odd posts. It may also shine a little light on his true thoughts about child pornography. Or not. Just a wild guess. It is quite possible that I misinterpreted. If so, I sit corrected.
What? Did I at any point in that post mention children? As far as I could see (and still can see), the question was about thumb sucking in general. Adults have both thumbs and mouth and I've met at least one (adult!) woman who found it erotic.

Make no mistake about it, I think child pornographers are the lowest scum you can find. However, they should be hunted down and punished according to the law, not by a lynch mob mentality.

quote:
Midgard "has sex with children" Dragon
Be careful with comments like that. A friend of mine was joking that he "had sex with other people's children" (of course in the sense that everybody has parents, with the context being the problems with parents-in-laws) when someone not completely sober overheard him and punched him out.

----

Latest updates:

The demonstrations went off peacefully, with representatives of four parties making speeches giving their support to the victims.

The web site of the Swdish Parliament is now also down. The same goes for Antipiratbyrån. Several sites with a anti-Antipiratbyrån messages has appeared on similar URLs.

The Pirate Bay and Piratbyrån is back up and running on servers in other nations. Most of the rest of the 200 servers are still down.

A video from a security camera in the server room has been released by the hosting company. It gives a scope of how many servers were involved. It clearly show the faces of most of the police officers (who were not even wearing uniform, so they should probably be refered to as "presumed police officers"). It also shows them blatantly disregard the safety rules in the server room, the best is a sequence where a police officer is standing right next to a large sign clearly stating that photography is not allowed happily snapping away. The video is available at the revived Pirate Bay (50 MB).

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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quote:
I mean, the context in which child pornography was brought up was pretty much a red herring anyway--like 'terrorism,' 'child pornography' is roundly hated enough to be a useful hot-button to press when one wants to regulate access to information or prevent people from having a little too much freedom.
No it was nor originally brought up as a red herring. Troberg was arguing that The Pirate Bay was not really doing anything wrong because they did not store illegal material on their servers. I simply asked him if he would accept the same argument if a bittorrent site did the exact same thing with child pornography. Possessing copyrighted material that one did not pay for is illegal. Possessing child pornography is illegal. If we are giving The Pirate Bay a free pass because it does not actually possess the illegal material and is merely linking to it, then we should logically do the same for a child pornography site using the same system.

Using another specific example on the same general topic (the legality of bittorrent) is not a red herring.

--------------------
Visit my blog, Websurdity... the Weird, the Bizarre, the Silly, the Absurd.

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Baikal
Happy Holly Days


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While I can see your point, I disagree in part. I've been in debates before about crypto-anarchism, which I am a proponent of--and had child pornography and national security raised repeatedly as counters. That may have swayed my interpretation, and maybe I was a little harsh. For that I apologise.

I won't comment on the legality on the Pirate Bay because it's not something I'm especially well-informed about. I think it's troubling that some indications are that the raid was politically-motivated--in the event, as per Wikipedia, Piratbyrån and the Pirate Bay have not been affiliated since 2004, and that alone makes the actions of the government here questionable. I worry that it's something like the destruction of Meigs Field--a highly questionable act that, because so few people actually cared, will be forgotten.

In the event, child pornography is a hot-button issue, I think, and perhaps I saw it as an effort to deflect attention, somewhat. Is there a reason why you picked it as a hypothetical illegality as opposed to, say, links about cannabis use or information on how to evade speeding tickets?

-Baikal

--------------------
I'm just a typical American boy from a typical American town.

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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:


quote:
To be honest, I'm somewhat concerned and perplexed by your eagerness to shoehorn anti-Jewish sentiment into this argument. It isn't about the Jews, as far as I'm aware, and your repeated references to them really do not help your argument.
?

I have not written anything anti-Jewish here, unless, of course you believe that bad things can only happen to Jews and saying differently will reflect bad on them.



"The Jews got Eichmann, give us Nodstrom?" Check.

Repeated comparisons between a frankly minor seizure of property and the Holocaust, which to my mind is a de facto trivialisation of the Holocaust? Check.

Replying to my criticism with unpleasant snark with a bit of an anti-semitic slant instead of just gracefully apologising? Check.

Maybe you don't mean to introduce them to the argument, maybe it's just a subconscious thing you do in every single argument you have. Which is, of course, even scarier.

Whatever, you don't get away with it around here. So stop it.

I'm probably sympathetic to file-sharing, and I've used TPB on occasion in the past. But shutting them down is nothing like the Holocaust, do you understand? Nothing. and your repeated comparisons and assertions have probably served to alienate more people from your cause than you have won to it.

I mean, for God's sake spare me this "First they came for the illegal file-sharers of copyrighted material, and I did not speak out for I was not an illegal file-sharer of copyrighted material" bullshit. You're making yourself look foolish and histrionic.

--------------------
This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Troberg's point is not that seizure of these servers is equivalent to the holocaust, he is arguing that they were both travesties and shouldn't have happened (and obviously anyone here can agree that attempts at genocide are worse than this.) Nowhere did he say "seizure of illegal file-sharing servers is the exact same thing as the holocaust."

That being said, I realize Troberg brought this on himself by invoking Godwin's law early in this thread. Everyone is, however, coming down way too hard on him.

Finally, and once again, The Pirate Bay does not host illegal material, they provide links to it. Everyone's looking at The Pirate Bay as illegal file sharers, when the only illegal file sharers are the ones that upload and download copyrighted material from the torrent links. I will be speaking out for them so there will be someone left to speak out for me, personally. Call it bullshit (didn't know that was a valid arguing tactic here at snopes) all you want.

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Midgard Dragon
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Posts: 2455 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later


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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
Troberg's point is not that seizure of these servers is equivalent to the holocaust, he is arguing that they were both travesties and shouldn't have happened (and obviously anyone here can agree that attempts at genocide are worse than this.) Nowhere did he say "seizure of illegal file-sharing servers is the exact same thing as the holocaust."



I disagree. In paralleling the justice minister who authorised this seizure, and Eichmann, the architecht of the 'Final Solution', and demanding the same punishment seemingly, Troberg made an exact comparison between this incident and the Holocaust. Which really is not on.

quote:

That being said, I realize Troberg brought this on himself by invoking Godwin's law early in this thread. Everyone is, however, coming down way too hard on him.



This is not the first time I have called Troberg either on tacit anti-semitism or making wholly-unrelated events refer back to the Holocaust/rise to power of the Nazis. It's not even the second time I've called Troberg either on tacit anti-semitism or making wholly unrelated events refer back to the Holocaust/ rise to power of the Nazis. It's maybe the ninth or tenth. I hope it's the last, because it really is getting tiresome.

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This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down.
Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound


Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Finally, and once again, The Pirate Bay does not host illegal material, they provide links to it. Everyone's looking at The Pirate Bay as illegal file sharers, when the only illegal file sharers are the ones that upload and download copyrighted material from the torrent links.
And they wrecked some 200 other servers in the process, none of them related to the (alleged) target in question, some of these hosting political opinion sites.

What's next? Arresting everybody on the street because of one drunk driver? Nuclear strikes against shoplifters?

quote:
This is not the first time I have called Troberg either on tacit anti-semitism or making wholly-unrelated events refer back to the Holocaust/rise to power of the Nazis. It's not even the second time I've called Troberg either on tacit anti-semitism or making wholly unrelated events refer back to the Holocaust/ rise to power of the Nazis. It's maybe the ninth or tenth. I hope it's the last, because it really is getting tiresome.
Tired of being wrong?

I'm not trying to hide the fact that I do not like the state of israel, but that's about the nation, not a race. As for making comparisons between atrocities, like it or not, but the nazis and the holocaust has become the very symbol of atrocities. I find it sad that it has reached such an iconic status that other atrocities are trivialized because of it. It should be a searchlight that illuminates the other atrocities, not put a blinding light in the eyes of the viewer.

The comparison between Bodstöm and Eichmann came from the distasteful use of the phrase "final solution" in combination with violations of human rights, and it was a clear call for justice. It's not trivializing anything, it's a statement that freedom can be lost at any level.

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/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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