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Author Topic: The day freedom of speech was lost
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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As some of you may have known, roughly 49 hours ago, Swedish police raided and shut down several websites advocation changes in the copyright laws. Note that these sites contained no copyrighted material at all, they just expressed opinions. One of the sites contained bittorrent links to material, but no contraband was on any of the servers.

The police used 50 men to do this, and the owners of the servers were taken into custody and interrogated.

The exact number of websites shut down is not yet known, but it's at least a dozen, including a couple of companies who just had the misfortune of having their server in the same room at the ISP.

Since then, more and more scary scary events has unfolded.

* The lawyer representing the main targets (The Pirate Bay and Piratbyrån) has been forced to leave a DNA sample. Just to make this clear, he is their lawyer, he is not suspected of anything. This is completely unprecedented in Sweden.

* The national attourney, Jan Eliasson, say that the raid was prompted by pressure from the US government and from the media industry. The minister of justice, Thomas Bodström, has made statements to the same effect. This goes directly against Swedish law, as the police is subject to the authority of neither. Luckily, a report against Thomas Bodström has been made by another politician and he will most likely be summoned to a constitutional committe.

* Statements made by a representative of the media industry lobby organization Antipiratbyrån, Henrik Pontén, makes it clear that the primary target wasn't The Pirate Bay (which contained the links), it was Piratbyrån (which is basically a site which publishes articles related to alternative publication and covers news about copyright issues and integrity issues). In other words, it was opinions that was targeted, not actions.

* Even though almost two days have past, no hardware has been returned and no replacement hardware has been offered. No public apology has been made to the ISP, who wasn't warned about this.

* The freedom of speech and the freedom to hold an opinion is guaranteed by the Swedish constitution. One of the affected sites had links to pirated stuff, but that has been tested under Swedish law and found to be legal. Basically, if you are not allowed to link to copyrighted material, you'd have to shut down Google. The rest of the sites had no such content and were purely for stating an opinion. Some sites had nothing to do with the subject at all and were just "collateral damage". There is no legal grounds for action against any of this.

* The sites did not even advocate intellectual property theft. They worked together with artists and developers and were trying to advocate forms which are fair for both the consumer and the artist, mostly by using modern technology to cut out the middle man. This is what annoyed the media industry, as they are that middle man, and prompted them to make this attack.

* The Pirate Bay recently (just acouple of months ago) recieved 50 000 kr, roughly $7000, from the Swedish national TV to help them finance their site. To me, this smells entrapment.

* The police caused such a mess at the ISP that they have more or less been shut down. Many companies are now without internet or mail.

* Tomorrow, two demonstrations will be held in Stockholm in support of the attacked sites. These demonstrations are supported by three political parties (Centern, Piratpartiet and Folkpartiet) and two more are considering giving their support (Vänsterpartiet and Miljöpartiet). This means that all major parties except two sill support the demonstrations.

* Some violent protests are also planned. Personally, I think these may do more damage than good, especially if they are done by an angry crowd.

* No doubt the police will respond to the demonstrations. We saw clearly what lengths the police are prepared to go to in Gothenburg a few years ago, where the police behaved in a very unsportsmanlike manner. Examples: Shooting a man who was taking photographs and taking his camera, never riturning the photos. Ordering people to fight, then shoot or beat them as they complied. Answering thrown rocks with gunfire. Attacking lone civilians in groups. Using chemical weapons.

* Clearly, the police is out of control. Polls made indicate that 85-90% of the population consider their actions wrong. The police is working outside the law, against the people they should serve.

In three months, Sweden has an election. Our previous election was tainted by bloodshed, now it looks like this one will also be tainted by bloodshed. I do not like these trends.

What happens next?

I don't know. I'm not sure if I have the money right now, but if possible I intend to go to Stockholm and participate in those demonstrations. I'll be wearing a T-shirt made for the occasion with the text (in Swedish) "The Jews got Eichmann. Give us Bodström!". I'll bring my cameras to capture the event, and, if the shit hits the fan, do a "Camcorder Truth Jihad". I intend to get the police reports of the raid and publish name and as much information as I can gather (phone number, adress, car reg number) of the 50 policement who participated on a web site, together with the politicians and other people behind this.

Will the hardware be returned? Probably, but it will take a year or two, and usually it's destroyed or damaged by then.

Will the victims be compensated? Perhaps, but compensations of all kinds are usually very low here.

How long will it take for the sites to be up and running? It varies. Piratbyrån has already found a new host and is running, The Pirate Bay has found a new host and is expected to be running within a few hours. The status of the rest of the sites is unknown.

Will the police have to answer for this? Most likely not. The policeman who shot the photographer, right in front of a TV camera got away with it.

Will the other responsible parties have to answer for this? Perhaps, but they will not get more than a weak reprimand and at most they'll have to step down a rung on the career ladder.

So, I urge you, until this is resolved in a satisfactory way, boycott media produced in Sweden. Music, movies, software, books, games, all that stuff. Swedish democracy and soverignity is rotating closer and closer to the drain, and it's time to do something about it.

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
happyholidaysfrog
Jingle Bell Hock


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Wow, that is scary. I hope there is no violence because of this, but it does need to change. Do you know what the people who are planning to protest violently are going to do? I don't approve of any kind of violent protests so I hope the big protest that is planned gets the attention rather then the violent one.

What frusterates me is there does not seem to be any effective ways to challenge government. They seem to opperate with impunity (even to the point of kidnapping and torture), with token smacks on the hand given out to people who are sacrificial victims while those who are truly responsible walk away unscathed, most like to offend again.

Keep safe Troberg, I'm hoping for a peaceful resolution to this.

--------------------
~All we see or seem is but a dream within a dream~
E.A.Poe

Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
~James Dean~

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


I have little knowledge of how the Sweedish government works, but I hope that those resposible for this are removed from office and prosecuted.

--------------------
Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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DAMN!!
I'm at a loss - I had no idea these things were going on - that is truly, truly terrifying.

--------------------
"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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While I was writing that, things took several turns to the worse.

Apparently, the US foreign department contacted its Swedish counterpart, demanding a (and this is a direct quote!) "final solution on the Pirate Bay issue". I think I've heard the phrase "final solution" before...

Not only that, the minister of justice, Thomas Bodström, ORDERS the national chief of police and national attourney to make this final solution happen. This is remarkable, as his authorities do not stretch to that kind of micromanagement. He is entitled to make sweeping policies and such, but the police is not his private task force. He is, in fact, by law prohibited to intervene in specific cases.

All servers belonging to the ISP was taken. Yep, you read that correctly. All servers belonging to the internet service provider, regardless of usage.

Leif Silbersky, the lawyer considered as the top lawyer in high profile cases in Sweden, has agreed to represent the three who are under suspicion. However, the attourney tries to partially stop this by not allowing them to have the same defender. This is not only suspicious, it's downright idiotic. A lawyer has a non disclosure obligation (correct term?), so there can be no leakage of information between the processes.

One of the victims, Gottfrid Svartholm, was even denied the right to see a lawyer or to have one present at the hearing. A representative of the police, Ulf Göranzon, did not consider this wrong or strange.

The police also criticised the legal advisor for the crew of Piratbyrån for not being picky enough when choosing clients. Eh? So, only the perfectly clean should have a right to a legal defender?

Apparently, many artists are now also complaining, since they used the superior file transfer technology and user base of The Pirate Bay to distribute their own works. More and more people are losing big money on this.

Now, two parties are supporting the report calling for an investigation of Bodström and these events. It's an election year, so we can probably expect all others except one to follow.

Another demonstration is planned, this one in Gothenburg.

Some links:

http://mikaelviborg.blogspot.com/ (the legal advisor of Piratbyrån, in Swedish)
http://viborginternational.blogspot.com/ (same as above, but slightly less up to date)
http://www2.piratpartiet.se/the_pirate_party (Piratpartiet, mostly in Swedish, but some parts in English. They may be a new party, but they are the largest party that not currently in the parliament.)
http://www.piratbyran.org/ (the current state of The Pirate Bay, in English)
http://prq.se/ (site of the ISP, in English)
http://82.99.25.142/prq/ (some pics of the mess the police left in the server room of the ISP)
http://piratkriget.omfg.se/ (links to articles on this issue, most in Swedish)
http://www.polisen.se/ (the site of the Swedish police, fittingly enough down at since a day or so)
http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=1203 (some background, in English)

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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link to news story

--------------------
I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Do you know what the people who are planning to protest violently are going to do?
No.

quote:
What frusterates me is there does not seem to be any effective ways to challenge government.
There may be as this is an election year.

quote:
Keep safe Troberg, I'm hoping for a peaceful resolution to this.
Don't worry about me. Safety is not the issue. It doesn't matter if you win or lose, what matters is that you are on the right side.

quote:
I have little knowledge of how the Sweedish government works, but I hope that those resposible for this are removed from office and prosecuted.
Legally, they could be held responsible, but usually, it just means a hiatus of one mandate period. Sad.

quote:
I'm at a loss - I had no idea these things were going on - that is truly, truly terrifying.
What baffles me, and I'm still pretty well versed in history concerning collapsing democracy, is how fast things crumble once they start. I knew it's hard to notice at the beginning, I knew that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, but I'm still baffled at the speed once things start going down. It's like watching the WTC footage. Everything looks fairly OK and intact, apart from some smoke. Suddenly, bang and it all goes down.

quote:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Don't worry about me. It's not within my mentality to be the last one they come for.

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm speechless.

I hope someone in your country has the balls to stand up to the current American administration and get your rights restored.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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RangerDog
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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What is at issue here? I mean I understand about the shutting down of the ISPs, etc. What exactly does Pirate Bay do and what is a bit-torrent? (I am limited in my research capabilities right this minute)

--------------------
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by RangerDog:
What is at issue here? I mean I understand about the shutting down of the ISPs, etc. What exactly does Pirate Bay do and what is a bit-torrent? (I am limited in my research capabilities right this minute)

From what I understand, The Pirate Bay is a filesharing site, or one that promotes filesharing. Bit-torrent is a protocol that is used to share files.

Essentially, Pirate Bay was sharing files (which PB cliams are not copyrighted) or somehow promoting the sharing of files, and the police raided the ISP that hosted PB and shut down all of the servers on that ISP, even those not associated with the site in question. Several people were taken into custody and (some were) denied their right to an attorney. Many of the articles that I've read indicate that the actions of law enforcement are not legal.

--------------------
Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

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RangerDog
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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From what Troon said its like a place for people to distribute their music? Art? Freeware?

If it turns out that there really was no copyrighted material then we have a really big problem.

With a name like Pirate Bay it makes one wonder, though.....

--------------------
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish

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Felessan
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Pastor Niemoller's list actually reads thus:

(Original)
Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.


(Translation on Wikipedia)
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

--------------------
You fool! That's not a warrior, that's a banana!
- a surreal moment in a role-playing game

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Dr. Dave
Frosty the Pitchman


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What does the US government have to do with this? I do not know much about copyright law, but I understand that each country has its laws but there are also international treaties and agreements. Is Sweden a signatory to such treaties? Did the US encourage Sweden to enforce them?

I do not see how the US could put any excessive pressure on Sweden: We're not going to invade, we don't give any protection that could be taken away, I don't think we even give much or any money- maybe favorable trade or something. I'm asking seriously, why are you blaming the US? Just the other day, you (Troberg) basically wrote that the U.S. has never and does not do much for Sweden, thankyouverymuch. Fair enough. I don't think the U.S. government told your government to arrest even those who were writing about/ advocating for the issue.

ETA: Or deny them a defense attorney, or harass the defense attorney, etc.

Oh, and Sara:
quote:
I hope someone in your country has the balls to stand up to the current American administration and get your rights restored.
Although the current administration may be skirting our protections here at home, generally these international intellectual property things tend to come up regardless of what party is in the White House. Seriously, both mainstream parties would be right of center in other countries, especially when it comes to this sort of issue.

In fact, I googled {international "intellectual property protections" Clinton} and found this cite that says Bush is too lax and this one lauding Clinton's guy for expanding protections

But, you know, if something you don't like happens anywhere in the world, even something that you probably had no idea was going on before Troberg told us, just blame Bush. [Roll Eyes]

(fixed spelling- sorry about the extra "e", Troberg)

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dave:
But, you know, if something you don't like happens anywhere in the world, even something that you probably had no idea was going on before Troberg told us, just blame Bush. [Roll Eyes]

I'm going by what Troberg says has been reported by people in Sweden:

quote:
* The national attourney, Jan Eliasson, say that the raid was prompted by pressure from the US government and from the media industry. The minister of justice, Thomas Bodström, has made statements to the same effect. This goes directly against Swedish law, as the police is subject to the authority of neither. Luckily, a report against Thomas Bodström has been made by another politician and he will most likely be summoned to a constitutional committe.
quote:
Apparently, the US foreign department contacted its Swedish counterpart, demanding a (and this is a direct quote!) "final solution on the Pirate Bay issue". I think I've heard the phrase "final solution" before.
The US government and the US foreign department are part of the Bush administration. That I knew or didn't know anything about this prior to Troberg's posting is totally irrelevant. I'm not blaming Bush, Swedish officials are blaming Bush.

No matter what the Bush administration does, it's ok with you. And, it seems, it's best if we just don't know about some of the stuff they do. [Roll Eyes]

Edited to get the name right. [fish]

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Spamamander in a pear tree
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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I'm speechless. (No pun intended.) Even more should there indeed be pressure from the US Government to take this action on behalf of large-scale media interests. Since we're supposed to always impose our belief systems and governments on other nations I guess it would only stand to reason that we spread the happy message of government repression of speech demonstrated by this administration too?

Just don't let 'em take Snopes away from you Troodon. I think a lot of Snopesters would have to take personal steps at that point. [Wink]

--------------------
"There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." -Albert Einstein

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prof. yanaibara
The First USA Noel


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Out of curiosity, because the poem got me thinking...

I don't follow Swedish internal politics too closely, but who stood up for the hate-filled Swedish pastor when he was going to be imprisoned for the words that he said about homosexuals? I know that he was eventually acquitted, but did many others who value free speech speak out for him? This isn't an attack - I honestly didn't follow enough to know whether it was the kind of thing that even his enemies may have gotten behind for the principle of the matter.

--------------------
away...

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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That sucks.

I wonder what the evidence against the US administration is and where it comes from.

ETA - Well, this piece of the puzzle doesn't shed much light. (How's that for a mixed metaphor.)
quote:
During a visit to the United States in April, the Swedish Minister of Justic Thomas Bodström was pressured by unspecified elements of the US government to eliminate ThePirateBay.org. Six weeks later, ThePirateBay.org was taken off line in a controversial raid that also claimed 200-300 other domains.
From:
http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=1206
the only source I could find other than the links in Swedish.
http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=22620&a=602079&lid=puff_401860&lpos=rubrik
http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=600643

Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
If it turns out that there really was no copyrighted material then we have a really big problem.
The site is like a phone directory. It shows where you can find stuff, but there is no stuff on the site. Classic linking. This has been tried before in Swedidh courts and found legal.

quote:
From what Troon said its like a place for people to distribute their music? Art? Freeware?
Troberg. I'm not offended, but there are others with similar names here that may not wish to be confused with me.

They linked to all kinds of stuff, including some copyrighted material. None of it, legal or not, was on the site or on any site owned by those arrested.

quote:
What does the US government have to do with this?
There is a lot of confusion right now, so I apologize if not everything fits neatly together. Information rolls in faster than I can read it and I have no clear view of the entire picture.

From what I've gathered, it more or less happened like this:

MPAA put their lobbyists to work against the US foreign department. They in turn contacted the Swedish foreign department, who contacted our minister of justice. He then put the police to work.

I doubt there was any coercion, more a feeling of "this will be good for our relations". I also don't think the US said anything specific about what to do, but The Pirate Bay was mentioned by name.

quote:
I'm going by what Troodon says has been reported by people in Sweden:
Troberg. Troodon is a completely different person.

quote:
Swedish officials are blaming Bush.
Not really, they probably made a mistake even mentioning it, as it will damage them. No voters like to vote for someone who takes orders from another country.

As much as I dislike Bush, I also don't think it went that far up. My guess would be:

Lobbyist to one specific US diplomat to one specific Swedish diplomat and so on.

In other words, I don't blame the nation of USA here.

--------------------
/Troberg

Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Gibbie
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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BBC article.

It says that the legality had not been tested in Swedish courts, rather than tested and found legal. Doesn't mention the other site that was shut down. Wonder if it was targeted or was simply caught up in the sweep due to the name similarities?

Gibbie

--------------------
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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Dr. Dave
Frosty the Pitchman


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Schucks, I was going to ask what some dude in New Hampshire had to do with all of this [Wink]


quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dave:
But, you know, if something you don't like happens anywhere in the world, even something that you probably had no idea was going on before Troberg told us, just blame Bush. [Roll Eyes]

I'm going by what Troberg says has been reported by people in Sweden:

{snip}

No matter what the Bush administration does, it's ok with you. And, it seems, it's best if we just don't know about some of the stuff they do. [Roll Eyes]


First of all, your last comment there is untrue. You have me confused with someone else. I know I only have a couple hundred posts, but the few that are on political threads are not universally defending of Bush. I do however tire of those who immediately jump on Bush for "trampling rights" even in places where he is not. You know, the old "there's plenty wrong that he's doing, why do you need to fabricate more?"

As for "going on what Troberg reported," that is why I asked for clarification of what the US government was doing. If someone in the Commerce Department (or State?) said "Hey, you know there's this WTO agreement and you've got this Sweedish Napster run amok, maybe do someting about it while we are thinking about tarrifs on Volvos, wink wink," that's not the same as- "arrest everyone in the building and lock 'em away or we're gonna' sneak in and send them all off to Gitmo." That their police or magistrate is out of control is a big problem, but just unretalted to Bush or the US in general. So really, there is no one in our administration to stand up to at all. I also pointed out that generally these international trademark isses things are apolitical in the U.S., so if Swede's want to flip the bird to international property laws, they really need to "stand up" to the WTO and the U.S. in general.

I do concede that the current administration is in fact the Bush administration. I also believe that is irrelevant in this case.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I don't follow Swedish internal politics too closely, but who stood up for the hate-filled Swedish pastor when he was going to be imprisoned for the words that he said about homosexuals? I know that he was eventually acquitted, but did many others who value free speech speak out for him? This isn't an attack - I honestly didn't follow enough to know whether it was the kind of thing that even his enemies may have gotten behind for the principle of the matter.
Surprisingly many stood up for Åke Green, considering it was hate speak. Most did it with some qualifications, usually along the lines "You should be allowed to say whatever you like, as long as you don't threaten someone.".

quote:
I wonder what the evidence against the US administration is and where it comes from.
The minister of justice and the national attourney claim that they recieved requests from the US foreign department. Listening to such requests over Swedish law makes them look very bad, so I doubt they'd lie about that.

--------------------
/Troberg

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The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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quote:
The sites did not even advocate intellectual property theft. They worked together with artists and developers and were trying to advocate forms which are fair for both the consumer and the artist, mostly by using modern technology to cut out the middle man. This is what annoyed the media industry, as they are that middle man, and prompted them to make this attack.
I don't know enough about Swedish law to comment on the rest of your post, but I am going to take some issue with this. First of all, I am a huge user of Bittorrent, and I am very familiar with one of the sites in question (The Pirate Bay) as well as some of the other sites currently being targeted by the MPAA and RIAA. Bittorrent is an outstanding technology. I also think the MPAA/RIAA have been incredibly stupid in many of the things they have done. From their complete inability to adapt new technology to their product, to suing people for having MP3s, and generally alienating a lot of the very people that pay for their products, to implenting incredibly stupid and sometimes dangerous copy protection schemes (although in fairness, Sony takes the biggest blame on that), they and their supporters in the goverment have been some of their own worst enemies.

On the other hand, to say that Bittorrent sites, like the Pirate Bay, are simply "trying to advocate forms which are fair for both the consumer and the artist" is misleading. It is still not clear whether or not hosting a bittorrent file that points to a copyrighted product is legal or illegal. But let's get real: the Pirate Bay was making it possible for millions of people to download thousands of copyrighted materials, from computer programs to songs to movies. The question of legality in this case is basically a technicality. It may be technically legal for them to host bittorrent files, but let's not pretend that they are just advocates for new technology. The artists/developers of the products being downloaded are not receiving a cent from the sites or the people downloading their products. If the artists and developers of the product want to use bittorrent as a means of distribution, that is up to them. It is not up to the Pirate Bay or anyone else to unilaterally make that decision for them.

Like I said, I think that the music and music industries ability to adapt to and implement new technology has been pathetic. But let's not sugar-coat the Pirate Bay and other bittorrent sites as being some kind of freedom fighters. One can advocate the advantages of Bittorrent without linking to copyrighted material.

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Visit my blog, Websurdity... the Weird, the Bizarre, the Silly, the Absurd.

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Aptenodytes_Forsteriis
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by nwataya:
Out of curiosity, because the poem got me thinking...

I don't follow Swedish internal politics too closely, but who stood up for the hate-filled Swedish pastor when he was going to be imprisoned for the words that he said about homosexuals? I know that he was eventually acquitted, but did many others who value free speech speak out for him? This isn't an attack - I honestly didn't follow enough to know whether it was the kind of thing that even his enemies may have gotten behind for the principle of the matter.

As I recall Troberg did not. In fact I believe he argued that it was a good thing to prosecute the pastor. I'm not trying to be snarky here just to press the point, free speech must include speech that seems horrible, nasty,and evil because that is what those in power think of speech they try to ban. I will edit to add the link to that thread as soon as I can find it

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'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite

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Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Not sure what this means
quote:
the US foreign department
but I guess we'll all just have to wait for the details if and when they do come out.
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dave:
Schucks, I was going to ask what some dude in New Hampshire had to do with all of this [Wink]


I had one of my dyslexic moments and I seem to have infected others before I fixed it. I'm really sorry.

quote:
First of all, your last comment there is untrue. You have me confused with someone else. I know I only have a couple hundred posts, but the few that are on political threads are not universally defending of Bush. I do however tire of those who immediately jump on Bush for "trampling rights" even in places where he is not. You know, the old "there's plenty wrong that he's doing, why do you need to fabricate more?"
When I get attacked by Bush Apologists, I respond in kind. I didn't say it was the Bush administration, Troberg's account indicated Swedish officials blamed pressure from the executive branch of the US government which is the Bush Administration. And, let's face it, this is characteristic of the behavior of the Bush Administration. I have no reason to not believe Troberg or the Swedish officials.

quote:
As for "going on what Troberg reported," that is why I asked for clarification of what the US government was doing. If someone in the Commerce Department (or State?) said "Hey, you know there's this WTO agreement and you've got this Sweedish Napster run amok, maybe do someting about it while we are thinking about tarrifs on Volvos, wink wink," that's not the same as- "arrest everyone in the building and lock 'em away or we're gonna' sneak in and send them all off to Gitmo." That their police or magistrate is out of control is a big problem, but just unretalted to Bush or the US in general. So really, there is no one in our administration to stand up to at all. I also pointed out that generally these international trademark isses things are apolitical in the U.S., so if Swede's want to flip the bird to international property laws, they really need to "stand up" to the WTO and the U.S. in general.

Once again, the information being provided does not indicate that any copyrighted material was involved.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Dieter Meyer
Deck the Malls


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From what I've understood, The Pirate Bay is a site which indexes bittorrent files (files containing, not the actual material of say a song, but information about where it is possible to download (bits) of material - when you open a bittorrent, you donwload data from a lot of various files until you have the complete file you wanted, kind of like a jigsaw puzzle) like this.

I think it's both scary and sad to see this happen in Sweden, and I hope something positive will eventually come out of it.

The chance of this happening here are luckily very slim (at least with the current administration); our Minister of Culture and Church Affairs and several other ministers both in the administration and opposition has proclaimed that laws criminalising the majority of young (up to 30) people will be wortless.

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"Soyons désinvoltes; n'ayons l'air de rien" - Noir Désir

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The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Once again, the information being provided does not indicate that any copyrighted material was involved.
It depends on how you define "involved." The Pirate Bay most definitely provided people with a means to download copyrighted material. They didn't host the material, but they did provide links to download it. Hence the legal gray area.

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Visit my blog, Websurdity... the Weird, the Bizarre, the Silly, the Absurd.

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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Spamamander~It's Troberg, not Troodon.

Said by Troberg:
quote:
Apparently, the US foreign department contacted its Swedish counterpart, demanding a (and this is a direct quote!) "final solution on the Pirate Bay issue". I think I've heard the phrase "final solution" before...
Please enlighten me. What is the US foreign department (Defense(?), State(?), what(?)), and how could the US put such pressure on Sweden. Refer to quote from Dr. Dave's post.
quote:
I do not see how the US could put any excessive pressure on Sweden: We're not going to invade, we don't give any protection that could be taken away, I don't think we even give much or any money- maybe favorable trade or something. I'm asking seriously, why are you blaming the US? Just the other day, you (Troberg) basically wrote that the U.S. has never and does not do much for Sweden, thankyouverymuch. Fair enough. I don't think the U.S. government told your government to arrest even those who were writing about/ advocating for the issue.
I just don't see how the US Government could be involved in this. I pray I'm not wrong.

Good luck, Troberg, whatever the cause. I hope you will be safe.

--------------------
"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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Dr. Dave
Frosty the Pitchman


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
The minister of justice and the national attourney claim that they recieved requests from the US foreign department. Listening to such requests over Swedish law makes them look very bad, so I doubt they'd lie about that.

Just to clarify again, that the US requested, discussed, whatever is quite comon place between countries for this sort of thing- whenever trade representatives meet, what do you think they discuss?. That a lot of pop culture media material comes from the US is the only relation in this case. I really don't think that the U.S. has much of a carrot or a stick with Sweden (maybe trade or tarrifs).

I do not have a firm position (not enough info) on the specific site, but to me the real problem is that the police went after those who just write about the issue, and the violation of protections for those arrested.

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Dr. Dave
Frosty the Pitchman


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dave:
[qb] Schucks, I was going to ask what some dude in New Hampshire had to do with all of this [Wink]


I had one of my dyslexic moments and I seem to have infected others before I fixed it. I'm really sorry.

Calm down, the winking guy is smiling. [Smile]
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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I can post a link to copyrighted material. Am I responsible for those who click on the link?

Oh, and:

According to Swedish Television's news programme, Rapport, the action was the result of contact between the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) and the White House.

quote:
The US State Department then turned to Stockholm, with a demand for Sweden to do something about The Pirate Bay.


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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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The Rubber Chicken
The First USA Noel


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quote:
I can post a link to copyrighted material. Am I responsible for those who click on the link?

That's the question. If I post thousands of links to copyrighted material, am I breaking copyright law? I don't know if the courts have decided that one way or the other yet.

Here is an analogy: I have a black book with the phone numbers of hundreds of drug dealers. Anybody who wants illegal drugs can come to me, and I can give them the phone number of a drug dealer from whom they can purchase illegal drugs.

I don't personally sell any of the drugs. I don't ppossess any illegal drugs. All I am doing is giving someone a phone number. Yet, I am fully aware that I am providing people with the means to break the law by giving them the phone number of a drug dealer, and am aware that they want the number so they can buy illegal drugs. Should I be arrested?

--------------------
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dave:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dave:
Schucks, I was going to ask what some dude in New Hampshire had to do with all of this [Wink]


I had one of my dyslexic moments and I seem to have infected others before I fixed it. I'm really sorry.

Calm down, the winking guy is smiling. [Smile]
No, you don't understand. LOL I really feel bad about calling Troberg "Troodon".

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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prof. yanaibara
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Aptenodytes_Forsteriis:
As I recall Troberg did not. In fact I believe he argued that it was a good thing to prosecute the pastor. I'm not trying to be snarky here just to press the point, free speech must include speech that seems horrible, nasty,and evil because that is what those in power think of speech they try to ban. I will edit to add the link to that thread as soon as I can find it

Ah, Aptenodytes, thank you. I think I've found the thread myself now:

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Even if one does not agree with a political standpoint, one has to respect it. Supporting PLO is certainly a valid viewpoint. I see school children through my window (I work next door to a school) wearing political symbols openly without problem, the red star, Che Guevara, several Swedish parties, the Swedish flag, US flags, red flags, black flags, syndicalistic flags, pirate flags, anarchy A, religious symbols, and also the PLO. I've even seen an occasional one wearing a svastika, and as much as I despise that ideology, I have to respect his right to wear it.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Government in general and especially law enforcement shall never, ever act on what you think, only on what you do. Everything else is just an invitation to 1984.

and then in reference to the pastor:

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
If that is not preaching hate, I don't know what it takes. Still, such statements would have been all right if he would keep them to himself. However, he choose to deliver them in a public situation, and delivering them in such a way that it were obviously an attack on homosexuals as a group.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
One has to weigh the freedom of all people here, and stoking the flames of a war against other peoples' freedom is not the kind of freedom I feel ready to defend. Åke Green is a figurehead for the forces who physically attack gays. There is a line that has to be drawn somewhere, and I think he has passed that line.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
The basic idea is that your freedom ends where it have a greater negative inmpact on someone else's freedom than your positive gain. You can not have freedom at the expense of the freedom of other people.

quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Just talk is not a problem. Downright lies aimed at destroying a group or leading to physical attacks is a problem.

So it's okay to support the PLO, pirates, and Nazis, but pastors who declare "sexual deviants" (Green's word) to be sinful should be imprisoned. This is a division in free speech that I find somewhat arbitrary and suspect, and I think you might want to reevaluate it with the growing restrictions in free speech that Sweden seems to be adopting.

--------------------
away...

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Dr. Dave
Frosty the Pitchman


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quote:
Originally posted by The ham and the bub and the BA:
I can post a link to copyrighted material. Am I responsible for those who click on the link?

A link to copyrighted material on the copyright holder's site- for example, you link to an article in the NY Times, but your link points to the NY Ties site, or you link to a song on some band's official site- is fine.

A link to another site that is violating the copyright may infact not be OK. There are fair use regulations, and permission is given, etc. But if I purchase a DVD, then download it onto a site that I run, and you then link to my site, yes you might be violating copyright laws.

Serious question- isn't that what Napster did- link to but not house material.

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