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Author Topic: NFBSKing Anxiety
AmISalmon
Deck the Malls


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In Robo's defence he didn't actually get 'snarky' until after the Drama Queen comment which was in response to Nocturnal Goddesses comments on whether he was really contemplating suicide. While I agree totally with Barbara's advice, and with her interpretation of the possible reasons for the post, I can also understand why Robo was upset about the drama queen comment. I think it would also make newbies think twice about posting - although it has done just the opposite for me [Smile]

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That Psammead, That Psammead, I do not like that Psammead.

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NocturnalGoddess- naughty or nice?
Carol of the Dells


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Right. I'm not critecizing the advice given, but, in situations like this, you really have to be careful with your wording so you're not possibly giving someone the impression that you are mearly brushing their pain aside as attention seeking.

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"I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson

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Arrow-Tech IV
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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NG, you're right about being careful with your wording. I really don't think that Robofication is a jerk. However, we as a board can't give him the answers that he's looking for.

I'd love to give him vibes. I'm thinking of him right now, and hope that he'll find the happiness/hope that he's looking for. But I don't have a magic pill.

When I had thoughts like Robofication is describing (driving down the road, I'd look at traffic and wonder how many pieces my car would end up in if I swerved into the semi), I was extremely depressed. I could treat it casually, joke about it, make light, sardonic references to it, and didn't really seem that bothered -- but I was headed downhill fast, and only someone who had only been around me for fifteen minutes clued me into the fact that I needed serious help. That snippet, what I chose to show that person, was enough for that person to see how close I was to the edge -- and that she couldn't help.

So, since that's what I'm seeing in Robofication's OP, that's the great warning I'm giving. You may think that you know everything about psychiatry -- and that you're more knowledgeable than everyone here -- but your posts read like someone near the edge, Robofication. Please, if what you're doing isn't working, take a step back. Get some sleep. Reevaluate where you're going and what constitutes joy for you. It's fairly obvious that you're currently trying to get water from a dry well.

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Aud
We Three Blings


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I'd just like to say thank you for making me reassess my feeling on billboards. I've smiled for the first time in days.
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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Robo, I wish you'd post again, just so we'll know how you are doing. I still agree with Sara - that maybe your combination of meds needs to be readjusted.

I've had to deal with a suicidal person for years, and it's not fun. I tell you this only so that you will know that I realize the seriousness of this situation. If Robo was simply wanting attention, well I guess he's the only one on snopes who has ever been an "attention whore," isn't he? I hate that term, but it seems to be the only acceptable one for use here. Sometimes a little attention and a few kind words is all it takes to relieve the immediate stress.

True, one should expect a response and possible disagreement when posting in a public forum, but it does seem that one could expect to not be attacked and to not be called names, too. I see nothing wrong with advising him to seek immediate help since we can't provide that help for him, but I see no need to insult him with such vigor, either.

In another thread, a snopester was called down, and rightly so, for calling another one names and for being rude. Double standard at play? Just wondering.

Cheers!

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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Kitten in the rain
Jingle Bell Hock


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I'm not going to address the various responces to Robo's post. Other people post on more boards than I do, and maybe deal with drama queens more and have less of a tolerance. I think reacting to a post like this one the way people have been (and that includes Barbara) is extremely cruel. But maybe other people have seen it all and can understand what's going on better than I can. Maybe not. For now, I'll just work with the understanding I have.

Robo, I've been there, almost exactly where you are (I have type II bipolar, and I remember you posting in the past that you have bipolar disorder). I've felt the anxiety, the depression, and especially the extreme self-destructive desires. I've seen a few people, but it's always come down to their telling me that any behavioral modification they could suggest, I'm already doing. So here's how I muddle through. I don't know how well it will work for you, but it's what I've got:

First off, as hard as it is, you HAVE to force yourself to face the situations that make you anxious over and over again, until they become routine. What I've found is that I'm not actually afraid of specific situations, but of the unfamiliar. I need to know what will happen from moment to moment, to anticipate it. Anything unfamiliar enough where I don't know, and I start to get anxious. The solution is not to avoid interviews, but to try and go to one every day, if possible. Similarly, if you force yourself to talk to strangers every day, you will become less anxious about doing so (if you're like me).

Similarly, and this is also hard, when you're depressed, you have to get off your butt and act as though you weren't. I rarely succeed at this right off, but it's the ONLY way I've ever pulled myself out of a downswing. Usually, I time myself. I tell myself: "Okay. I'm going to set my timer for 15 minutes. I'm going to clean the kitchen for 15 minutes, and then I get a break. It's not forever, just for 15 minutes." That way, it keeps me from blowing the "I can't do it"s out of proportion.

Next, if there is something that is repeatedly going wrong, you have to fix it. This is hard for people in our situation to do, sometimes. If you have no portfolio and this is a recurring problem, you need to make up a portfolio. From what I understand of the art world (I don't know what kind of portfolio you need), it doesn't all have to be work that you did for other people. You can just do some for fun and include that. Make a reasonable (REASONABLE! If you're like me, you will try to push yourself too hard and you'll crash -- part of the self-sabotaging behavior) goal of how often to produce a new piece, be that one a week or one a month. Then, no matter how bad they are, put them in your portfolio. As you get better ones, replace the bad ones. Regular practice will improve your skill and doing it regularly will make it less scary or difficult to do.

Also, are you getting regular exercise? If not, do so. Make yourself do it, just for 15 minutes, or 10, or whatever you can handle. My moods have stablized so much since I've started working out three times a week, and this weekend, after I missed two workouts because the place I go was closed most of the week, I had a really bad episode. It's no coincidence. Exercise gets your blood flowing, which is good for all parts of you, including your brain, and it gets your brain to release all kinds of 'good for mood balance' chemicals. It helps get toxins out of your body, which might be causing underlying ookie feeling that contributes to a feeling of ill-being.

Now here's the last thing: While I have been in that place where I'm so depressed that I see death as the only way out but nevertheless don't consider killing myself, it didn't sound from your first post like that was how you were thinking. There was a time in my life when I was suicidal, and I would have denied it screaming if anyone asked me, I was so ashamed. (No one ever did. I was -very- careful to be happy around others so no one would know.) If you really are seriously thinking of killing yourself, and you don't have to confirm to me if that's the case, please talk to someone. Preferably your psychologist, but a suicide hotline person or a friend would do. Someone who can help you.

Anyway, that's it, that's all I've got, unless you want to start studying buddhist philosophy. [Razz]

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Tzarina
Xboxing Day


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Kitten,
I don't think any of us were intentionally cruel. And many of us have been where Robo is ourselves. I'm Bipolar and have had episodes my entire life.

However, Snopes is not the place to turn for a rant that includes veiled/vague/masked/whathaveyou suicidal remarks. Whether they were legitimate or not. If they were legitimate feelings, he should see his therapist. If they are not, then they were poorly worded at best, and attention seeking at worst.

And honestly, just because you hid it when you were suicidal, does not mean everyone does.

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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Unintentional cruelty is just as cruel.
A rose by any other name. . .

True, snopes is not the place for real help when you are in real trouble, but what purpose is served by being unkind?

Kitten didn't say everyone hides it when they're suicidal, just that she did. There's a difference.

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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Kitten in the rain
Jingle Bell Hock


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Tzarina, I wasn't suggesting that everyone hides it. I was positing that as a possible explanation. Another one is that Robo was self-sabotaging himself by saying something that he knew would bring down the wrath of the snopesters on him. Another is that he's in the place where I sometimes am where you see death as the only way out, but not as an acceptable way out.

I also wasn't saying that people were intentionally being cruel. I don't think that many people are ever intentionally cruel. However, I think that people are often thoughtlessly cruel, and some of the things that were said to him, IMO, were cruel.

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Arrow-Tech IV
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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And he was cruel to others in his responses....
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Roadie
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Arrow-Tech IV:
And he was cruel to others in his responses....

Well, he was, but that could be symptomatic of his MH issues, or his frustration. I totally understood that and shrugged that part off. But I'm still wondering what reaction he expected or needed and how that would differ from talking to people in RL.

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"The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)

"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus)

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Kitten in the rain
Jingle Bell Hock


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His reaction is no excuse for anyone's behavior, good or bad. I agree that his defensive reaction to the name-calling is an issue that needs to be worked on, but I didn't feel that it would be helpful to bring that up here and now, because he was already on the defensive, and there were a lot of (IMO) more important things that I wanted to address. I felt that if I rebuked him in my post, then there was a chance he would discount the other things I had to say in his defensive reaction to the rebuke. It was a choice I made in an effort to communicate more clearly the things which I felt were the most important to communicate.

But when all is said and done, whatever he says or does not say is no excuse for anyone to act cruelly. Saying "THEY STARTED IT!" or "BUT HE DID IT TOO!" is the sort of tactic I'd expect from a six year old. I think it behooves adults to have more personal responsibility.

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Signora Del Drago:
Unintentional cruelty is just as cruel.

No, it's not. Unintentional cruelty might hurt as much but it isn't as cruel per ce as intentional cruelty.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Arrow-Tech IV
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Robofication is an adult, posting on an online message board -- a message board populated primarily by skeptics and "call it like it is" people.

When a moderator of the board, or whatever "grand high Poobah" Barbara is, calls someone like Robofication on his post, it's HIS responsibility to act like an adult in his response. This isn't the "Oprah" board, it's the "Snopes" board, and it's not staffed by psychiatrists, but populated by cynics.

My husband just pointed out that he is firmly of the opinion that "suicidal ideation" is the point at which a rant ceases being a rant and becomes a cry for help, because any humane, responsible person is going to try to get you help.

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James D
Deck the Malls


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Having experinced MI myself (Panic disorder w/ agoraphobia + major depression), I figured I'd chime in as well.

Firstly, for anyone who is reading and sucicidal, ( not solely in respect to the OP, but recognizing that there may be readers in similar or even worse straits) The US national suicide prevention can be reached at 1-800-273- talk (1 800 273 8255). In addition there are other private lines such as the hopeline at the easy to remember 1-800-suicide (1-800-784-2433). A variety of other numbers can be found here

I won't be as trite to say I know how you feel, because every one of us lives our own lives and has our own experiences - but I empathise nonetheless.

I also hang out (technically, I'm a minor moderator these days) at a website for people with anxiety dieorders. Though the people there are not mental health professionals, and cannot tell you a 'cure' per se; they often have had experiences you can relate to. And sometimes it can help to know people who can relate. If you (or anyone else) is interested in visiting, drop me a PM and I'll send a link.

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The best measure of a man's honesty isn't his income tax return. It's the zero adjust on his bathroom scale.
Arthur C. Clarke (1917 - )

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I'mNotDedalus
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Drunk monkeys skedaddling afoot on pink n’ poiple roller-skates, infecting every member of the San Francisco PETA Charter whilst on their Sunday Roller-Derby Charity Outing with pox 'n rabies.

That sweet image of unintentionality always raises me’pants.

Another stop: try to simply recall that you have an SO, who (I'm assuming) is aware of your seated condition and, nevertheless, is still by your side. You sound pretty fortunate in that respect to me. Of course, the luck of having an SO does not trump the condition, in and of itself. But it may be something small to consider in a positive light.

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The salty fragrance of L’Eau D’I’mNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles.

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Roadie
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by I'mNotDedalus:
Drunk monkeys skedaddling afoot on pink n’ poiple roller-skates, infecting every member of the San Francisco PETA Charter whilst on their Sunday Roller-Derby Charity Outing with pox 'n rabies.

That sweet image of unintentionality always raises me’pants.

Oh.my.god. Only you, IND. Only you. [lol]

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"The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)

"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus)

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J'sMommy
Fighting Irish Stew


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quote:
Originally posted by Robofication, Lightly Roasted:


NFBSKing Anxiety. The palpitating heart. The shyness. The constant worry, the avoidance of any human contact.

NFBSKing Depression. NFBSKing wanting to curl up and forget the world, to grab a bottle, to drink away the part of the day I'm awake.

NFBSKing urge to self-destruct. NFBSK urge to die. To escape and be nothing.

Today, driving into work, I saw a man standing on top of a billboard. I don't know why he was up there. Perhaps changing the ad. And I imagined myself up there, in his place, the sun pouring over the horizon, quicksilver, illuminating me, and a smile on my face as I fell, the last thought to shooting across my neurons...."I wonder how long it will take to replace me."

NFBSK this world. [/QB]

Oh boy, have I been every single place you are. Regardless of what anyone says, its good to get your feelings out instead of holding them in until you explode. You have my sympathy and my prayers, if you will have them. Just a note, not trying to pep talk or tell you what to do, but when I was at my worst I was actually having an alergic reaction to one of my meds. Also just a note, often low doses of anti-psychotics can help with the self destructive thoughts. Taking them does NOT mean you are psychotic, its the side effects from the med that make the thoughts go away. I hope some of this helps you a little, and I hope you are better today.

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Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
I'm an Avon Rep! Email me for information on ordering.

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Logoboros
We Three Blings


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I don't mean to be cruel or to further a dogpile on Robo. And I do understand (and, in fact, respect) Kitten's "turn the other cheek" method of compassion. But I do want to clarify some aspects of the negative response to Robo that have been scolded here.

First of all, I'd like to point out that Robo is not the only one necessarily hurt here (though I won't argue that the pain is of equal proportions on both sides). Robo's post was genuinely distressing. It made me alarmed. It made me very worried for his immediate well-being. I expect it did the same for Barbara, hence her response. And I don't think that such a reading of the post was unreasonably off-base.

For Robo to come back and say "I didn't really mean it" or, more accurately, "I didn't mean it to the degree that I made it sound like I did" shows that the initial post was essentially a betrayal of trust. We expect a level of candidness on this board. Robo's post was exaggerated -- in order to help his venting, no doubt. His reasons for exaggerating are understandable. But exaggerating without telling people you're exaggerating is, basically, a kind of lying. Making things sound worse than they really are -- that is what drama queen behavior is. Maybe "drama queen" is an unnecessarily negative term. But the behavior being described is negative behavior, so perhaps it's best not to equivocate on that.

He argues that the response he received was somehow hypocritical or unfair because a woman with "an abusive husband" can vent in Rantidote and receive sympathy. If someone posted on this board that her husband had beaten her and cracked her rib and she genuinely feared for her life, and then later tells us "No, all he really did was yell at me and call me a filthy name, but I was just so P.O.'d I had to get my anger at him off my chest," she still would have betrayed the trust of the board. It doesn't mean she's not in pain. It doesn't mean her husband isn't still abusive. It doesn't mean that her situation doesn't warrant our compassion and support.

But her initial action of leading the board on is not forgiven just because of the circumstances. It would still be an offense to the social life of the board (in my opinion).

Robo committed a similar offense. We can certainly forgive him. But it bothers me that he has not yet apologized or even acknowledged that his first post was problematic at best.

It may well be petty and unhelpful for those of us offended to continue to press our complaint. I'll concede that. But the complaint itself is not invalidated. Maybe Robo won't be able to see that he does still owe an apology until his meds are balanced or until his mood improves, but the debt still exists.

--Logoboros

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"If Men were Wise, the Most arbitrary Princes could not hurt them. If they are not wise, the Freest Government is compelld to be a Tyranny."

--William Blake

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Jay Temple
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by I'mNotDedalus:
Another stop: try to simply recall that you have an SO, who (I'm assuming) is aware of your seated condition and, nevertheless, is still by your side.

The SO is doubtless aware of the medications and the conditions that call for them. However, I know firsthand that you should not assume that Robo's SO is aware that he is having suicidal thoughts.

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"Well, it looks we're on our own ... again."--Rev. Lovejoy

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Barbara
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Signora Del Drago:
In another thread, a snopester was called down, and rightly so, for calling another one names and for being rude. Double standard at play? Just wondering.

I didn't call him a drama queen. I said he's either a drama queen or is honestly contemplating killing himself, and either way he doesn't belong here, and I haven't changed my mind about that. If he is truly experiencing thoughts of offing himself, he needs to be in the hands of professionals, and he needs to be there quickly. Starting a thread on a message board to discuss his suicidal ideations is a piss-poor idea because it works to keep him engaged with that activity rather than using whatever's left of his energies to deliver himself into the hands of those who can help, the mental health care professionals. Such a thread would also serve to confuse him with a variety of advice, some good, some bad, that would conflict with what he would be told by those called in by his therapist to help on his case. And if he's in that state of mind, confusing him further would be a really lousy idea.

This message board cannot help people who are experiencing serious mental issues - those people need to be directed to appropriate outlets for the interventions they need rather than delayed here by our futile but well-meaning attempts to help. It is all well and good to want to help, but please understand that we just aren't capable of the measure of assistance required by the suicidal, and that in such instances at best our "help" may not cause any harm, but at worst may work to help someone in a highly confused state to delay in seeking the only remedy that is going to save him, which is professional care. In those cases, we do the greatest kindness by getting such people out of here and into their doctors' waiting rooms and even into mental hospitals. There is nothing about cruelty or unkindness in this - it is about helping such people get out of their current messes alive.

If however Robofication's post was prompted by the other reason, the "Life's boring at the moment because people aren't paying attention to me - I'll tell them I'm flirting with the idea of killing myself; that should stir things up!," then he also should not be here, but not in that case because of the potential for doing himself harm, but because of the harm he would do us. This community has had its attention seekers over the years, and over the years it has gotten rid of them. Though the parade of them never ends and it does sometimes take a while for us to catch onto the newest crop and get them out of here, such folks aren't welcome in these forums and never were.

Now as to which Robofication is, I honestly can't say, and I doubt anyone else here can either, because that would require knowing him in the face-to-face world, something I don't think any of us does. My sense of things is he is genuinely flirting with thoughts of killing himself even if he hasn't quite faced up to what he's feeling or how seriously he's feeling it, but again, that is only my guess. However, I've been in the online world long enough to know not to rule out the other, even when my instincts pull me the other way, because starting an "I'm thinking of killing myself" thread is a drama queen rather than a suicidal person thing to do.

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NocturnalGoddess- naughty or nice?
Carol of the Dells


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Barbera, I'm not saying that what you are saying is wrong, but as I explained to you, when there is a possiblitity that it is at either extreme, word choice is crucial. What sounds perfectly fine to us (provided I am not also in either depression or mania) sounds horrificly distorted to someone in the depression. You're very straight forward and easy to understand, but, unfortunatly, emotion mangles everything and a delicate touch is best used to avoid complication.

I don't know him face to face, so I can't actually vouch for his truthfulness, but in to discussions I've had with him about our bipolar, I have faith that he is being truthful and isn't the time to make things up for attention.

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"I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson

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Arrow-Tech IV
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: Sickly Sweet:
Barbera, I'm not saying that what you are saying is wrong, but as I explained to you, when there is a possiblitity that it is at either extreme, word choice is crucial.

"As I explained to you"? NG, your post seems condescending. Have you read any of Barbara's other posts? Barbara has earned points with most people here because she is so very good at drawing clear lines and giving thoughtful, well-worded advice.

Suicidal thoughts, suicidal threads, need moderators who aren't afraid to draw clear lines and to say what is or is not acceptable.

quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: Sickly Sweet:
I don't know him face to face, so I can't actually vouch for his truthfulness, but in to discussions I've had with him about our bipolar, I have faith that he is being truthful and isn't the time to make things up for attention.

"Our bipolar"? Aren't you over-identifying with someone you've only met through the Internet?
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Kitten in the rain
Jingle Bell Hock


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Logobros and Barbara, here's a quick short story to see if I can get across what I think was cruel and unhelpful about some of the responce here:

A few years ago, I took a very good writing class where the teacher introduced me to an Indian author who did some lovely things with symbolism that moved and inspired me. I challanged myself to write a story using symbolism in the same ways, and wrote an aborted romance between two people who really weren't "meant to be" but who were drawn to each other anyway. I thought it was one of the best pieces of fiction I had ever written, lovely and bittersweet and thuroughly rooted in the inherent tragedy of the human condition.

When I gave it to my teacher, however, she told me that it read like a harlequin romance. I was devastated, especially because I respected my teacher so much. I railed against her advice and wouldn't listen to her and generally shut down for the rest of the semester (which was almost over).

Months later, I read the story again and realized that she was right. I hadn't had faith in the ability of the reader to see the romance blooming between the two characters, so I whacked them over the heads with it like it was a mallet. If she had said it to me in that way, I would have seen it then. But instead, for whatever stupid reason, she used inflammatory words and so I got fixated on those words and didn't hear a thing she said. Something that should have been helpful wasn't because of two words she picked.

There are lots of ways to say "If you're really suicidal, you need to be talking to a professional, not a bullatin board, and if you're not really suicidal and saying it for attention or for some other reason, please understand that we get that too often already and we don't need to hear it again because it causes undue trauma on people who worry." without using the words 'drama queen', which are a pretty scathing insult for a lot of people, and 'you don't belong here', which can be really hurtful as well.

It's the vehemence with which people piled onto Robo that irked me. (And as I said, his behavior was also less than appropriate, but I didn't feel that my post was the right time to bring that up because there was the risk of doing so lumping my words in with the rest of the naysayers.)

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Kitten in the rain
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Arrow-Tech IV:
quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: Sickly Sweet:
Barbera, I'm not saying that what you are saying is wrong, but as I explained to you, when there is a possiblitity that it is at either extreme, word choice is crucial.

"As I explained to you"? NG, your post seems condescending. Have you read any of Barbara's other posts? Barbara has earned points with most people here because she is so very good at drawing clear lines and giving thoughtful, well-worded advice.
I think that what she's trying to get across is that she has personal, firsthand experience with this sort of situation and "explained" it to Barbara in those terms. It's arguable that someone with a strong understanding of human nature might have a better grasp of these things than someone who has "been there", but they won't have the firsthand experiences no matter how insightful they are.

Further, because someone has shown incredible wisdom in the past doesn't make them into a god, and the moment when they sit back and decide they know everything and there's nothing else anyone can teach them is the moment they go back to being fools. I don't think Barbara has drawn any such conclusions about herself and thus I don't see why she wouldn't be open to people explaining things to her, even if those things are just their point of view, and even if she disagrees with said point of view.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: Sickly Sweet:
I don't know him face to face, so I can't actually vouch for his truthfulness, but in to discussions I've had with him about our bipolar, I have faith that he is being truthful and isn't the time to make things up for attention.

"Our bipolar"? Aren't you over-identifying with someone you've only met through the Internet? [/QB]
By "our" I think what NG was saying was 'his and my various cases of bipolar'. As in: She also has bipolar and she and Robo have been comparing experiences over PM.
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Tzarina
Xboxing Day


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I really don't see where anyone "piled on" to Robo. I think there was sound advice given, with a mild warning. As in, if you're serious, please get some professional help. If you're not serious, this board is not the place for this kind of look at me behavior.

Sure, there are many ways to phrase things, but I think Barbara's driect and to the point approach is generally the best way to go.

To be frank, the person who should have taken better care about their words was Robo. Using words that are in effect threatening suicide are not words to throw around in jest or hyperbole.

And while I see why people are defending him, there is no way for you to be any more sure than anyone else on this board as to his true mental state at this time. The cautious approach of "seek help in the real world" seems like a better idea than the bury your head in the sand "he may have just had a crummy day today" approach.

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Arrow-Tech IV
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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QUESTION: Is Snopes a good place to post suicidal ideations?

ANSWER: No.

QUESTION: How should someone who is a moderator of the site, who might have to deal with legal repurcussions should a serious situation arise, handle a person who posts suicidal ideations?

MY ANSWER: They should be blunt and honest and send that person as quickly as possible to towards help.

Remember, if you're being treated for a disorder, you are not certified to treat others with the same disorder. You can also NEVER assume that everything that manifested as part of your condition is exactly the same as that of someone you've never met personally.

NG, having PM's back-and-forth with and e-mailing consolation to someone is one thing, but when someone posts what could be fairly easily read as a cry for help on a public message board, the reactions of everyone change -- and they must change in such a public forum.

Those responsible for the message board have to be clear. There is no room for ambiguity and mushiness when you're dealing with such a post. It's serious.

So, either it's Robofication's actual suicidal thoughts OR it was a joke/exaggeration. As a Snopester -- or Snopes himself -- you don't personally have this guy's answers (unless there's a degree and numerous years of experience that you haven't posted on your profile...and even in that case, without actually seeing this guy's file and being accepted as his mental health professional, you can't render a professional judgement).

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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Just my opinion, but I think Barbara's first response to Robo was exactly right. It was direct, non-judgmental, explained very clearly that he needed help, which he could not get here, and advised him to seek his therapist immediately. I was, however, as the result of ensuing posts, confused about why it is acceptable to call people names at times and is unacceptable at other times. I appreciate her clearing that up for me.

Sara, you said what I was trying to say. Thanks. Unintentional cruelty is not as cruel, per se, as is intentional cruelty, but it may hurt just as much.

Arrow-Tech IV posted:
quote:
QUESTION: How should someone who is a moderator of the site, who might have to deal with legal repurcussions should a serious situation arise, handle a person who posts suicidal ideations?

MY ANSWER: They should be blunt and honest and send that person as quickly as possible to towards help.

100% agreement here. That's exactly what Barbara did. I may be wrong, but I don't think her advice was given just to cover the legalities. I think she was truly concerned, as were others who made suggestions such as reviewing his meds with his doctor. If he's going to kill himself, we can't stop him, but having a place to vent just might be enough to keep him from committing suicide for a few minutes. Sometimes, that few minutes can mean the difference between life and death. A person I love very much tried to commit suicide and failed. Later, he said he was glad it didn't work, and thank goodness, he's okay today. My friend's husband blew his brains out. Literally. I'm rambling. Sorry, but this has hit close to home. Guess I'm just venting. Thanks for reading. And, I'm hoping Robo is okay today.

--------------------
"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Kitten in the rain:
quote:
Originally posted by Arrow-Tech IV:
quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: Sickly Sweet:
Barbera, I'm not saying that what you are saying is wrong, but as I explained to you, when there is a possiblitity that it is at either extreme, word choice is crucial.

"As I explained to you"? NG, your post seems condescending. Have you read any of Barbara's other posts? Barbara has earned points with most people here because she is so very good at drawing clear lines and giving thoughtful, well-worded advice.
I think that what she's trying to get across is that she has personal, firsthand experience with this sort of situation and "explained" it to Barbara in those terms. It's arguable that someone with a strong understanding of human nature might have a better grasp of these things than someone who has "been there", but they won't have the firsthand experiences no matter how insightful they are.

Further, because someone has shown incredible wisdom in the past doesn't make them into a god, and the moment when they sit back and decide they know everything and there's nothing else anyone can teach them is the moment they go back to being fools. I don't think Barbara has drawn any such conclusions about herself and thus I don't see why she wouldn't be open to people explaining things to her, even if those things are just their point of view, and even if she disagrees with said point of view.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: Sickly Sweet:
I don't know him face to face, so I can't actually vouch for his truthfulness, but in to discussions I've had with him about our bipolar, I have faith that he is being truthful and isn't the time to make things up for attention.

"Our bipolar"? Aren't you over-identifying with someone you've only met through the Internet?

By "our" I think what NG was saying was 'his and my various cases of bipolar'. As in: She also has bipolar and she and Robo have been comparing experiences over PM. [/QB]
Here's the thing. I've been fighting heart disease for two decades now including plenty of visits with doctors, books, literature, all kinds of differing medication, and more than one heart surgey.

Even with all that, I wouldn't dare tell someone that they are wrong in wording, spirit or otherwise for suggesting that someone with chest pains see a doctor immeadiately. I'm not a cartiologist and 20 years of heart disease did not change that. I am not qualified to speak about anything beyond my own experiences which are purly anecdotal.

This is true of anyone who suffers from bipolar, depression or any other mental illness. The illness alone does not make one more qualified to advise others on how to deal with people who have that illness. Because the right answer to an apparent threat to commit suicide is urging said person to get professional help and it doesn't take personel experience to know that.

Beach...no message board in the world would have saved my brother from taking his life...Life!

--------------------
Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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kingfan1978
Deck the Malls


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I'd just like to offer an additional option to people suffering from depression/anxiety disorders. DH has coped with this problem for more than 7 years & he found that a combination of medication & cognitive therapy works for him. I know the OP wasn't a big fan of CT but maybe that's because of the approach his therapist takes. DH highly recommends this book. It teaches you some CT methods that you can use on your own, on a daily basis or whenever you need them.

Understand, I'm not suggesting that the OP dump his therapist & pick up this book...only that reading this may help as an aside or may make it easier to understand the benefits of cognitive therapy.

--------------------
"I reject your reality and substitue my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Arrow-Tech IV:

When I had thoughts like Robofication is describing (driving down the road, I'd look at traffic and wonder how many pieces my car would end up in if I swerved into the semi), I was extremely depressed.

Arrow, you typed what I was thinking. What's really freaky is that my ideation always took the form of crashing my car.

The thing is, even if we said "Poor Robo! I know how you feel! I'm sure your SO would miss you." It would have the same effect as cleaning the toiet or picking lint off his shirts. It's pallative only.

It was only two years ago, Robo, that I finally got a therapist who actually did anything useful other than make me feel slightly better. Who addressed the actual behavioral modifications I made in order to survive my disease. This was 30 years after my first suicide episode.

I was lucky in that I found meds which helped control the constant voice in my head. But the coping mechanisms I learned were still there. The panic everytime I feared rejection was still there. The feeling that I would be loved if only I was perfect was still there. In short, all the excuses I had made for my life being crap other than the fact that I had an actual illness were still there. And still not helping.

If you have a therapist you can play games with, then they are not the right person for you to be working with. If you lived here, I could give you the name of mine.

I agree that your post set off huge alarm bells. And that your response to Barbara's excellent advice set off more.

Here's the thing. One of the problems I had with depression going into remission is that
I mistrusted feeling anything but sad. Being bummed out hurt, but it was comforting and familiar. Being unsad was scary. Being actually happy (deep down, contented and happy) was terrifying. For the first few years on meds I was absolutely sure that at any moment, they would stop working and I would be plunged back into the grey, cold abyss. It made me anxious.

It was much easier to seek out the abyss myself. I could navigate the abyss. I had its map carved into my soul.

But good helpful therapy showed me how to cope with not being depressed.


So you didn't want a pep talk, Robo. And you didn't want Barbara's advice. We can all say "Been there, done that, have the scars on my wrist", but honestly, how will that help?

Turquoise "Interestingly, the scars started fading when I started feeling better" Girl

--------------------
There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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Barbara
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Arrow-Tech IV:
quote:
Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: Sickly Sweet:
Barbera, I'm not saying that what you are saying is wrong, but as I explained to you, when there is a possiblitity that it is at either extreme, word choice is crucial.

"As I explained to you"?
In a PM. That I didn't answer.

Barbara "harangued" Mikkelson

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Barbara
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseGirl:
quote:
Originally posted by Arrow-Tech IV:

When I had thoughts like Robofication is describing (driving down the road, I'd look at traffic and wonder how many pieces my car would end up in if I swerved into the semi), I was extremely depressed.

Arrow, you typed what I was thinking. What's really freaky is that my ideation always took the form of crashing my car.
In preparation for an article I've been considering writing, I've had to do a fair bit of reading about the difficulty inherent to classifying the causes of deaths. One such problem arises with single-vehicle fatal traffic accidents - are they suicides or not? You see, suddenly giving in to the impulse to run one's car off a bridge or into a hydro pole isn't all that uncommon. (We know that because some people who have had such impulses have survived such attempts to kill themselves and others have overcome those urges rather than given into them.) So what to make of single-vehicle fatalities when it's clear from the accident scenes that attempts to brake weren't made? Suicides? Or did animals suddenly appear on the road, causing the cars' drivers to swerve? Further complicating such determinations is the presence of alcohol in the now dead - did booze contribute to fatal but unintentional driver errors, or was the alcohol part of the "getting up the courage to kill oneself" process?

Even harder to sort out are the "car suddenly swerved into a semi" deaths - were they vehicle malfunctions, or were they cases of sun suddenly in the drivers' eyes, or were they caused by the drivers taking their eyes off the road (to fiddle with the radio, for instance) then "suddenly" seeing large trucks bearing down upon them and swerving but in error swerving *into* the trucks rather than away from them? Or were they impulsive but deliberate acts of suicide?

It is postulated that an astonishly high number of such fatalities are deliberate (and successful) suicide attempts. Crashing one's car isn't the death method of choice when the decision to end it all is made over a period of days or weeks (in those instances, it's hanging for men and pills for women), but it's likely the first choice for those who off themselves on impulse. And it is doubly surprising both in how common that impulse is (even the truly well grounded can sometimes feel it) and how strong the sudden urge can be (those who have experienced it report it has a very sharp pull).

Barbara "buying the farm on impulse" Mikkelson

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Arrow-Tech IV
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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It was really interesting to read T-Girl's and Barbara's takes on the "swerving into traffic" suicidal tendency.

Edited to add some sentences: In retrospect, what strengthened the impulse for me at the time was that I could not only feel my fingers on the wheel (as in, "Wow. I could just DO this! It would be immediate."), but I knew that it would be difficult for people to figure out whether it was a "tragic accident" or a deliberate suicide attempt. Heck, I could even pretend to myself that I was swatting a fly or changing the radio station. As Barbara pointed out, it's usually hard to tell the difference between inattention and deliberate inattention. It seemed like such an ending would be more comforting to my family, somehow.

However, I believed that I messed EVERYTHING up at the time -- and why should my suicide be different? So what really held me back against the pull to swerve into oncoming traffic was the fact that I knew that I wouldn't have control over the accident -- and would probably do EXACTLY the wrong thing -- and that someone else would probably get hurt and/or die. That seemed inherently wrong, to me, to create a situation that steals away someone else's life/happiness.

And, of course, there was always the thought that I might not actually die, but be permanently incapacitated/disabled in some way.

Eeg.

Arrow "So very, very glad not to live in that mental place anymore" Tech IV

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TurquoiseGirl
The "Was on Sale" Song


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What was the worst for me was the urge to just turn the wheel a little bit and crash into the lane divider on the freeway. No one knew for a long time that this was why I avoided/got nervous on the freeway.

And Arrow, the big thing that kept me from doing it was also not the thought of death but of injuring other people or being paralyzed.

I am glad that *neither* of us live in that mental place anymore.

I really wish no-one had to.

--------------------
There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe

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