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Author Topic: If you don't like it, then don't watch it.
Sylvanz
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Welcome to the board Colonel Zoidberg
quote:
Yay to the Perfect Pet Petter!)
Wouldn't that be the human hand? [Wink]
I hate all reality shows Colonel way too contrived, phony, and they intentionally bring out the worst in the contestants. But that's just my opinion to each his/her own you know?

P&LL, Syl

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro:

ETA: Someone else said, i forget who, but I generally don't think about shows I don't watch because I think they're stupid, nor do I complain about them. What I complain about is all the other people going on and on about how brilliant a show is and, "What do you mean you don't like 'Seinfeld'???" [Roll Eyes] People, I watched it a few times, and hated it. Therefore, I never watched it again. Get over it.

Yeah, that's the flip side of my rant. I get angry when people not only have to tell you your favourite show is stupid but they also have the (usually unspoken - sometimes not!) implication that you must be pretty stupid if you like it. I can see where that cuts both ways!

It's like people who sneer because you enjoy a certain genre of fiction. Whether that's romance, sci-fi "cozy" mysteries - whatever. If it's not likely to be shortlisted for a Booker prize there are people who will assume it's dreck and if it is dreck and you are reading it, well my god how stupid are you? [Eek!]

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Jay Temple
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I had a post to make here inspired by Sylvanz' comment about her stepdaughter, but I'm starting a new thread instead. Look for something math-related.

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"Well, it looks we're on our own ... again."--Rev. Lovejoy

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Some people's brain function is simply not conducive to their enjoying reading. No matter how interesting the subject matter is, they're just not going to enjoy the physical and mental process of reading. And I'm not only talking about people with learning disabilities, either.

A friend of mine, who happened to be an avid reader, had a son who hated to read. In an attempt to get him interested, she was reading a book out loud to him. The book was about a boy who became trapped on the side of a mountain overnight and survived by building a snow shelter. She stopped at one point and said, "Imagine what that was like -- the wind howling, hearing animals outside your shelter," etc. And her son said, "Where did you get all that? The book doesn't say any of that stuff." She said something about reading a book and seeing the story in her head, and her son said, "I don't see any of that. All I see are words on the page."

It was a revelation to my friend, and to me. We agreed that if the experience of reading were like that for us, we wouldn't like it either.

Colonel Zoidberg, welcome to the board. Love your screen name. I do hate Survivor, although I don't expect anyone else to hate it because I do. My own reasons have to do with the kind of manipulative behavior it rewards and my own painful experiences with people who routinely use that behavior in their personal relationships. I simply don't find that entertainining.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Colonel Zoidberg
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Thanks, folks. I understand I am probably one of the few Survivor fans on the board. Not to say that you're all doofuses for not liking it, but it is to say I see different things than most of you do in it. I don't see it as an extension of office politics, where people can ruin others' lives to get ahead. I don't see that at all. Rather, it's a controlled version of office politics, in which people's lives are usually enhanced by the experience. That plus I find the term "reality TV" to be a bit misleading anyway; it's simply unscripted TV. I also find it to be more entertaining than Friends, which I just never got into.

BTW, the Perfect Pet Petter was from the show American Inventor, for you non-reality types. Picture American Idol, only with inventors. You get the really good ones (the Catch Vest, Word Ace, and this year's winner, the Anecia Survival Capsule) and then you get the completely insane ones. The Perfect Pet Petter was one of the most insane inventions. It consisted of a device that looked like a toaster oven with no door and a hand-like device coming out of it. The hand would move back and forth to "pet" the pet, all the while playing a human's voice in what turned out to be a somewhat disturbing manner. And this guy stood by his invention like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread! He even compared himself to Thomas Edison. Maybe he needed another failed invention - My Therapy Buddy.

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Egg Note
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Hiya Colonel Zoidberg. To be honest, I never really had much of an opinion on reality shows mostly because they never really interested me. I do watch Dog: The Bounty Hunter, Cops, and America's Most Wanted whenever I can [which is usually never because either I'm playing video games or doing something else involving the computer on Saturday nights. There really should be a marching band reality show sometime soon.

re Reading: I was one of those people who likes to analyze everything to death [probably one of the many causes of my overactive imagination] although I can understand how it can get tiring, epsecially if said book makes watching grass grow more exciting. I've said it countless times but I do not want to sit through Wuthering Heights ever, ever again. Ever. And even though I like analyzing things, I can enjoy "mindless" things as well. Strangely enough though, I was one of those people who prefered lit over math, so eh.

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Okay, just to make it clear, there is a real world out there. No really, there is. I checked.

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Logoboros
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
And her son said, "Where did you get all that? The book doesn't say any of that stuff." She said something about reading a book and seeing the story in her head, and her son said, "I don't see any of that. All I see are words on the page."

Lainie, is your position that this kid couldn't learn to use their imagination to experience the story? That some different brain structure is solely responsible for his inability to see beyond the bare "words on the page"?

Imagination is something that can trained. It is also something that can be neglected and/or stifled.

I'm getting into this discussion a bit late, but I will offer this as a defense of reading as a process worthy of being distinguished from dramatized entertainment (theater, film, tv, video games, etc.): Enjoying a story requires that you imaginatively recreate the sense experiences that the words signify. You don't see, smell, feel, or (except for dialogue in recorded books -- and even that isn't "fully" dramatized) hear anything. You have to actively construct that world in your imagination. This is true even for a "bad" book (though a badly written book makes generating this imaginative world all the more difficult).

Now, as far as applying critical thinking skills, yes, dramatized narratives can be just as suitable. On that level they are perhaps just as potentially "active" an activity. But in terms of stimulating the audiences' own imaginative depth, they do not, for the most part offer the same degree of challenge as even a mediocre reading experience. Which isn't to say they are worthless. Not at all. But to say they are an equal substitute to reading is wrong. They may do other things better, but they do not do the same things equally well. And the things reading can do (which these media can't) are not to be blithely dismissed.

--Logoboros

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"If Men were Wise, the Most arbitrary Princes could not hurt them. If they are not wise, the Freest Government is compelld to be a Tyranny."

--William Blake

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Zoidberg:
Thanks, folks. I understand I am probably one of the few Survivor fans on the board. Not to say that you're all doofuses for not liking it, but it is to say I see different things than most of you do in it. I don't see it as an extension of office politics, where people can ruin others' lives to get ahead. I don't see that at all.

Well, neither do I. To clarify, the manipulation I was describing had nothing to do with office politics. [Big Grin]

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Tantei Kijo
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
Funny, I've noticed that with book illustrators or cover artists. Their picture of a character is often not the one I had in my head. So what? Just because I can picture a story in my head doesn't make it better than someone else's vision.

It might be better just by the fact that many illustrators plain out ignore how the author describes the character. [Razz]


Also, count me in as one of the people who had trouble reading for fun as a kid. I still have phases where I only read "fact" books, but those are now tempered with fiction interludes.

As for complaining about bad tv, I think when a regular viewer sees a decline in quality, that they have the right to complain without it sounding that bad. There just has to be a point where the complainer stops watching, though.

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Bender: Though you may have to make a metaphorical "deal with the devil". And by "devil", I mean the robot devil, and by "metaphorically" I mean get your coat. ------------ My sad site: A new way to be bored.

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Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Tantei Kicked-Kat:
quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
Funny, I've noticed that with book illustrators or cover artists. Their picture of a character is often not the one I had in my head. So what? Just because I can picture a story in my head doesn't make it better than someone else's vision.

It might be better just by the fact that many illustrators plain out ignore how the author describes the character. [Razz]
Actually, it's more likely that the publishers ignored how the author describes the character when giving instructions to the illustrator.

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"You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!"

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Tantei Kijo
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Jenn:
quote:
Originally posted by Tantei Kicked-Kat:
quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
Funny, I've noticed that with book illustrators or cover artists. Their picture of a character is often not the one I had in my head. So what? Just because I can picture a story in my head doesn't make it better than someone else's vision.

It might be better just by the fact that many illustrators plain out ignore how the author describes the character. [Razz]
Actually, it's more likely that the publishers ignored how the author describes the character when giving instructions to the illustrator.
Wow, that makes a lot more sense. You've cleared up a near-major mystery of life for me.

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Bender: Though you may have to make a metaphorical "deal with the devil". And by "devil", I mean the robot devil, and by "metaphorically" I mean get your coat. ------------ My sad site: A new way to be bored.

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Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


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I used to work with children's authors and I picked up a few things. Authors basically have zero input on the art or the artist, whether it's a cover or a whole picture book. The publisher pairs an illustrator to the book and often the author and artist never even meet each other until after if at all (although for picture books it's more likely there will be communication). In fact, often the authors don't even get to see the cover art until it's gone to print. I know many authors who are unhappy with their book covers, and a few who have experienced great relief when they actually like the cover art.

I know one author whose publisher instructed the illustrator to make the character look older than the age in the book. The character was 13, but the illustrator was told to aim for 16 or 17 years old for the cover. The reasoning was that having an older teen on the cover would make it more appealing to both younger and older teen readers.

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"You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!"

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Cervus
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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One of my favorite books happened to have its first-run cover art depict the main character (who is described as white in the book) as looking vaguely Native American with dark brown skin. One scene in the book depicts the main character getting on a train with a black friend to go to Harlem and he is the only white face on the train. You'd never guess that from the skin tone on the cover art.

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"There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen
Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Jenn:
I used to work with children's authors and I picked up a few things. Authors basically have zero input on the art or the artist, whether it's a cover or a whole picture book. The publisher pairs an illustrator to the book and often the author and artist never even meet each other until after if at all (although for picture books it's more likely there will be communication). In fact, often the authors don't even get to see the cover art until it's gone to print. I know many authors who are unhappy with their book covers, and a few who have experienced great relief when they actually like the cover art.

I know one author whose publisher instructed the illustrator to make the character look older than the age in the book. The character was 13, but the illustrator was told to aim for 16 or 17 years old for the cover. The reasoning was that having an older teen on the cover would make it more appealing to both younger and older teen readers.

I've seen some books though where the illustrators really did work with the authors or if they didn't it sure seemed that way! I'm thinking in particular of the Krushs who illustrated Mary Norton's "The Borrowers", Alan Tiegreen who did such a wonderul job on Beverly Cleary's "Ramona" books and especially the fabulous Garth Williams who did Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little House" series. I guess the bigger the author the more likely it is that they will be able to have more control over who does the illustrations?

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
I've seen some books though where the illustrators really did work with the authors or if they didn't it sure seemed that way! I'm thinking in particular of the Krushs who illustrated Mary Norton's "The Borrowers", Alan Tiegreen who did such a wonderul job on Beverly Cleary's "Ramona" books and especially the fabulous Garth Williams who did Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little House" series. I guess the bigger the author the more likely it is that they will be able to have more control over who does the illustrations?

Oh yeah, it's not a hard and fast rule. And you're right, the bigger (or perhaps more established) the author and more popular the series, the more control they'll have. And when they find a good match, the publisher will look to pair that author and illustrator in the future.

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"You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!"

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I think that reading, watching TV and playing video games are all equally "passive".

"Active" in this sense would mean writing the book or script, designing, programming or illustrating the game, filming the show. People do those things as well, of course, but they tend to seem more like work...

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Jenn:
I know one author whose publisher instructed the illustrator to make the character look older than the age in the book. The character was 13, but the illustrator was told to aim for 16 or 17 years old for the cover. The reasoning was that having an older teen on the cover would make it more appealing to both younger and older teen readers.

Reminds me of the Baby-sitters' Club books from the 1990s - the girls are supposed to be 11-13 and instead look at LEAST 16 on the covers. It was ridiculous.


BTW, I HATE when I try to strike up a conversation by mentioning a recent TV show and the only response I get is along the lines of "I don't watch that because it sucks." I'm sorry my taste in TV is apparently inferior to yours, but dammit, I was just trying to be friendly, so bite me.


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This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

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YudanTaiteki
Deck the Malls


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It is also worth pointing out that there are things visual (film, TV) media can do much better than print media. Action scenes are the most notable example.

Also, I'm not sure how much "imagination" reading takes -- it's not like you're making up the characters and the story yourself, you're just visualizing the printed descriptions.

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Spc. Sharki
Deck the Malls


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Not to derail the thread, I'm really just curious, but am I the only snopester who thought Futurama was a really lame show. Don't get me wrong Bender was a great character, I love the ultimate robot fighting leage episode, but the rest of the cast of totally disposable.

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Let your TV bleed- Tom Petty

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DemonWolf
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Em:
Does anyone else ever suddenly realise that they've been watching a dodgy middle-of-the-night infomercial for the latest amazing breakthrough in fitness, hair removal or food processors when they really should have been in bed hours earlier?

Has anyone ever watched an infomercial, and waited for it to end because you thought that it was a commercial and you were waiting for your show to return?

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Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!

IMJW-052804

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Elphaba Fabala Elphie Fae
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
I love reading, but I hated reading most books for English class because we went beyond analyzing and almost vivisected them to death. Everything had meaning and symbolism. I asked several of my teachers if maybe the author didn't intend to write anything but a story, and the reply was that all symbolism and metaphors were intentional. Everything had to have meaning. Later I read a similar anecdote by Stephen King (I think) so I knew I wasn't the only one bothered by the overanalyzation of books in English classes. (The Scarlet Letter, anyone? To my teacher the symbolism and color were more important than the actual plot or syntax.)

Sometimes I don't want to think about a character's motivations. Sometimes I just want to read a story. I only like to analyze characters if the author has written them in a compelling way. I do agree that forcing people to read for subtext can deter them from enjoying reading. I had a friend who, after finishing a book, analyzed everything and wrote down his thoughts and possible discussion questions. He was disappointed when I told him that sometimes I don't like to deeply discuss books I've read. It makes reading into a chore.

I just finished The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, which has so much character depth that I wouldn't mind analyzing or discussing subtext. I can't say the same for a Michael Crichton or Carl Hiaasen book - I read those purely for fun, because they're "light" and plot-driven. I knew several English teachers who looked down on students reading "light" or "trashy" novels and tried to get them to read more "important" works. I think it's bad form to discourage a kid from reading anything, even if it's something you diapprove of.

I've always felt this way regarding English classes. Of course, there are authors that intend to inject symbolism into an otherwise simple plot (Ernest Hemingway, anyone?), but for the most part, I've always been of the belief that authors write for their stories to be read and enjoyed and discussed...not for them to be pulled apart, dissected until they're no longer a coherent story, but are reduced to a list of symbols and plot devices. ::grumble grumble::

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The Wicked Witch of the West was FRAMED!

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Sylvanz
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
I've always felt this way regarding English classes. Of course, there are authors that intend to inject symbolism into an otherwise simple plot (Ernest Hemingway, anyone?), but for the most part, I've always been of the belief that authors write for their stories to be read and enjoyed and discussed...not for them to be pulled apart, dissected until they're no longer a coherent story, but are reduced to a list of symbols and plot devices. ::grumble grumble::
There is at least one school of criticism that insists that what the author intended is completely irrelevant. It's all in the text. I believe, it's called
New Criticism. I don't really subscribe to this particular type of criticism, but it's still relevant in literary circles at present though it's heyday was a few decades ago. I like picking apart stories speaking of Hawthorn has anyone ever read the "Blythedale Romance"? Now there is a story that screams to be picked apart.

P&LL, Syl'loves literary theory'vanz

Edited to fix tags.

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvanz:
quote:
I've always felt this way regarding English classes. Of course, there are authors that intend to inject symbolism into an otherwise simple plot (Ernest Hemingway, anyone?), but for the most part, I've always been of the belief that authors write for their stories to be read and enjoyed and discussed...not for them to be pulled apart, dissected until they're no longer a coherent story, but are reduced to a list of symbols and plot devices. ::grumble grumble::
There is at least one school of criticism that insists that what the author intended is completely irrelevant. It's all in the text. I believe, it's called
New Criticism. I don't really subscribe to this particular type of criticism, but it's still relevant in literary circles at present though it's heyday was a few decades ago. I like picking apart stories speaking of Hawthorn has anyone ever read the "Blythedale Romance"? Now there is a story that screams to be picked apart.

P&LL, Syl'loves literary theory'vanz

Edited to fix tags.

Orson Scott Card once told me that he never even thinks about symbolism in his books, it writes it's self in. His specific example involved a character who was at one point covered in ash which was washed off in a river. His wife was in tears after reading it as it was the most beautiful baptism she has ever read.

I do not doubt that some authors artificially add the symbolism. Sometimes it works well (Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man comes to mind) sometimes it looks and feels like it was added. I think that our lives are often rich with natural symbolism, and that's the way I prefer novels to be as well, naturally symbolic.

Beach...and Moby Dick is not about a whale...Life!

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Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
Jack Dragon, On Being a Dragon
Confessions of a Dragon's scribe
Diary of my Heart Surgery

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Tantei Kijo
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Spc. Sharki:
Not to derail the thread, I'm really just curious, but am I the only snopester who thought Futurama was a really lame show. Don't get me wrong Bender was a great character, I love the ultimate robot fighting leage episode, but the rest of the cast of totally disposable.

I was going to make an insulting comment in your direction as a joke immitation of the others people have mentioned on this thread, but I can't think of a funny way to phrase it. Wait, umm, "UR dUmb". There we go.

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Bender: Though you may have to make a metaphorical "deal with the devil". And by "devil", I mean the robot devil, and by "metaphorically" I mean get your coat. ------------ My sad site: A new way to be bored.

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eif
Jingle Bell Hock


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quote:
Originally posted by Elphaba Fabala Elphie Fae:
I've always felt this way regarding English classes. Of course, there are authors that intend to inject symbolism into an otherwise simple plot (Ernest Hemingway, anyone?), but for the most part, I've always been of the belief that authors write for their stories to be read and enjoyed and discussed...not for them to be pulled apart, dissected until they're no longer a coherent story, but are reduced to a list of symbols and plot devices. ::grumble grumble::

Sounds familar

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Where I come from we believe all sorts of things that aren't true. We call it History.

Posts: 506 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Ganzfeld
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Richard W:
I think that reading, watching TV and playing video games are all equally "passive".

"Active" in this sense would mean writing the book or script, designing, programming or illustrating the game, filming the show. People do those things as well, of course, but they tend to seem more like work...

That doesn't make sense to me. Playing games can certainly be as active as playing Chess. Is that also passive? (Setting aside reading, etc. for a moment.)
Posts: 4922 | From: Kyoto, Japan | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
IlGreven, Swan a-Swimmin'
Grandma Got Run Over by a Rain Check


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Well, that's fine and all...but what if the show you hate is American Idol? Or Survivor?

No, I don't watch them. Yet every newscast has mention of the winner. Uh, yeah. Everyone who wanted to know that information watched the show. Everyone who didn't either doesn't want to know it or doesn't want to have it spoiled before they're able to watch it. Thus, giving out that bit of info is useless.

Plus, what the NFBSK is an NBC affiliate doing promoting a F*X* or CBS show for? Shouldn't you, y'know, be promoting the show that airs OPPOSITE AI or Survivor? It's like Americans giving tanks and jets to Al-Qaeda; you're just promoting your own show's destruction.

*Yes, F*X is a curse word to me. I don't watch ANY show on F*X.

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Posts: 508 | From: Ohio | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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