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Author Topic: Buckle Up Your Kids! A Great Update!
Chimera
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My problem is that the pro-seat belt people focus too much on what can (and does) happen to those who don't buckle up. I feel like I do when I see some anti-drug ads. It seems they aren't being honest with me. I know they have a valid point but the scare tactic thing doesn't sit well with me. Its like everyone that doesn't buckle up will be road kill, just like everyone who smokes a joint will eat a baby by mistake.

I think its best to buckle up (in most instances) but I don't think it should be governed by law. Hell, lets talk air bags next. I'm surprised my mom isn't against all saftey devices. In their most recent car accident she got really smashed up by one while my dad walked away, basicaly unharmed. She's smaller and had a far larger thing inflate in her face (while wearing glasses which increased the injuries). Sure they might both be dead now if there weren't airbags. No one knows, so I don't think anyone should legislate. Ok, even if they do know I don't think they should legislate. My parents are grown adults and should be able to make their own decisions. I know what my mom's would be and it would be a no on both but she's been very unlucky (or lucky depending on your point of view).

Besides the laws are fickled. My mother probably could've got out of wear a seat belt because she did have a bit of a phobia and a generous doctor at one time, but she wouldn't admit she's nuts (she isn't really but seat belts do bother her). My dad didn't have to wear his after shoulder surgery. Great! take someone with limited movement that's probably more likely to be in an accident and give him a temporary pass on wearing a seat belt.

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"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun'

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Mosherette
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The phrase "In their most recent car accident" makes me think that seatbelts, airbags and so on aren't the problem at all - rather perhaps it's your parents that shouldn't be allowed in cars.

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Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave

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Seaboe Muffinchucker
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
I think its best to buckle up (in most instances) but I don't think it should be governed by law.

I vehemently disagree with your parenthetical qualifier, but do agree with the rest of the statement.

Rather than passing a law, I believe that people who refuse to buckle up should not be allowed to sue for non-medical damages--no "lost wages," no "pain and suffering," etc. And the use or non-use of a seatbelt should be mandatory evidence in any accident related law suit.

Seaboe

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Seaboe, I would agree with your proposal, but with the addition that it applies to adults making decisions for themselves. I am a proponent of laws requiring that size-appropriate restraints (carseat, booster seat or seatbelt) be used for children under 18.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Seaboe Muffinchucker
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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I'll agree, but amend your amendment--I think 18 is too old. How about below legal driving age (16 in most states, I believe)?

Too bad we're not in charge, huh?

Seaboe

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Education is not the filling of a hard drive, but the lighting of a bulb. -- Yeats via Esprise Me

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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We should meet and plot our revolution. I think we'd be excellent benevolent dictators.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Chimera
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Mosherette:
The phrase "In their most recent car accident" makes me think that seatbelts, airbags and so on aren't the problem at all - rather perhaps it's your parents that shouldn't be allowed in cars.

They had a couple when they first met. My mother said the reason she married my dad was that had the ring on him while being carted off to the hospital and didn't know if he was going to die (my dad was riding his motorcycle and got squished between two cars) so it wasn't my dad's fault (I don't think). The rest were my dad's fault and my sister thinks he's trying to kill my mom. The truth is every accident has been caused by him trying to avoid an animal and it only happens once a decade or so. Oddly, aside from the first incident, my dad has never been seriously injured.

My mom has never had a license in her. She won't drive because she thinks cars are deadly weapons doesn't want that kind of responsibilty (even though her brother said he'd give her a car if she got a license). She's the eternal peace maker and pacifist and even accidently taking a life would kill her. ETA: She just thinks she's the caretake of humanity. She's taken in several family and non-family members and even invites the homeless over for the holidays. She ran a care group and still does cards and hospital visits. The idea of harming someone hurts her.

I have a license and I've been in three fender bender types of acidents. Once was in the middle of a several car pile up on an on ramp. Once was getting rear ended while stopped at a cross walk in a school zone. And, the most recent (since you like that phrase) was me being rear ended buy an elderly person in a parking lot that didn't seem to know I exisited. I'm not trying to make light of it but I think there was a bit of confussion. After making sure everyone was ok, we just went on our own way. Heck I only paid about $400 bucks for the car, I didn't care about a couple scratches and he wasn't moving more that 5 miles an hour anyway. I think only one of those was my fault.

Admitedly my dad rolled a truck thingy into a creek once while trying to do some off roading. But he's in his 60's and hasn't killed anyone yet.

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Seaboe Muffinchucker
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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
...was me being rear ended buy an elderly person in a parking lot that didn't seem to know I exisited.

My mother drove a cherry red Plymouth Fury II (the one on the left). Not exactly an invisible car even when not painted up as a cop car.

She was backed into in parking lots three times by people who were apparently totally unaware she was there.

Seaboe

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Barbara
Layaway in a Manger


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quote:
Originally posted by SeaboeMuffinchucker:
Rather than passing a law, I believe that people who refuse to buckle up should not be allowed to sue for non-medical damages--no "lost wages," no "pain and suffering," etc. And the use or non-use of a seatbelt should be mandatory evidence in any accident related law suit.

Seatbelts protect the occupants of other vehicles in addition to the people they're being worn by. If you're wearing a seatbelt, you are far more likely to maintain control of your car in an accident, thereby reducing the chance of your taking out some other hapless vehicle on your way through the guardrail.

Barbara "it's not always just about the individual" Mikkelson

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Niner
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by SeaboeMuffinchucker:
Rather than passing a law, I believe that people who refuse to buckle up should not be allowed to sue for non-medical damages--no "lost wages," no "pain and suffering," etc. And the use or non-use of a seatbelt should be mandatory evidence in any accident related law suit.

Seaboe

Why not just go halfway on that? Lawsuits already can assign partial blame in cases like this, why not just do the obvious and say if you weren't wearing a seatbelt, you're partially to blame for your injuries and get subsequently less payout for whoever hit you.

Otherwise, this just seems like another case of blaming the victim. "Oh, she wore aluring clothes, sorry, no rape charges will be pressed." The fact that I (metaphorically, since I believe in buckling up) didn't buckle up shouldn't negate the fact that you just hit me with your car. I have a right to not be hit by a car whether or not I'm wearing the belt.

Barbara makes an excellent point - drivers still in their seat are more likely to retain control. I'll also add the likelyhood of a buckled driver being less of a burden on society to support legal requirements for seatbelts. I don't like the law, but I have a hard time arguing against those two points.

Motorcyclists are seeing a similar issue with helmet laws, but with some interesting differences. First of all, a helmet isn't going to keep me in control of my bike any more if I'm in an accident than if I'm not wearing it - by the time the helmet gets used I'm already out of control. Second... it's unclear still as to whether helmets reduce or increase the burden on society.

Non-helmet wearers tend to take all-or-nothing damage - if they're ok, it's usually very minor injuries. If it's bad, they're probably dead. Helmeted riders (without the rest of the gear) take some number of those would-be-dead riders and puts them in the badly-damaged-but-still-legally-alive camp. Of course, you also have to start weighing the loss of that person's effect on our world, but I'll leave that for the abortion threads [Big Grin] [fish]

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Niner
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Menolly:
A friend of ours went to a safety seminar years ago. It talked about 'unsecured' items in the car. Explained how anything became a projectile travelling at the speed prior to impact. Strange example they used: a box of Kleenex at 50 MPH can knock someone out when an accident brings you to an immediate stop.

Got a cite for that? [Razz] I believe this was on mythbusters before, and while they decided that many heavy objects *can* become deadly projectiles, the tissue box just didn't have enough mass to do so. Episode in question

The bowling ball was pretty impressive though! I do have to agree that it makes much more sense to properly secure any load in your vehicle, rather than banking on the chance that you'll be thrown safely from the car.

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LOADEDGOAT
I Saw Three Shipments


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I knew a woman that had three kids...2 of them were twins, Andy and Sandy. She rode them around in a bronco without buckling them in all the time. I tried talking to her about it(this was before it became a law here in GA that seatbelts be worn, by law) and even made her mad several times when I refused to let my kids ride to the store and back with her. Her 3 kids would bounce all around the inside of the vehicle. One day, one of her tires blew out and the bronco overturned. They found one of the twins, Andy, beneath the bronco after they search the surrounding area for him and not finding him there. I attended a funeral that week, and heard that the Ga State Patrol was planning on charging her with Andy's death. I don't know if they ever did, but I do know that she continued, after a time, letting her 2 remaining children bounce around the inside of her newly aquired vehicle.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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I've been in southeast Asia for a while, and in many ways the traffic there is a horror show. It's common to drive around with unsupervised kids on the back of a pickup, even small kids. They take lots of chances when driving. Seat belts are uncommon. The roads are bad and not designed for accidents. Drunk driving is fairly common. Not to mention the use of mopeds and motor cycles as family vehicles (often two adults and two kids on a single vehicle), without helmets, leather gear or decent boots. In other words, it can be worse.

While we are talking about buckling up kids: Keep your effing kids in the seat while flying. An aircraft is not a playground where you can climb all over it. A four (approx) year old standing on the back of a seat can do a lot of damage, both to him/herself and to others if the air becomes bumpy and he/she falls in such cramped areas. It's also pretty annoying when you are trying to sleep on a 10 hour night flight and kids are running up and down the isles all the time.

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Seaboe Muffinchucker
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Niner:
The fact that I (metaphorically, since I believe in buckling up) didn't buckle up shouldn't negate the fact that you just hit me with your car. I have a right to not be hit by a car whether or not I'm wearing the belt.

Which is why I specified non-medical damages would be dissallowed. You would still be able to get all of your medical costs paid. But since the fact you were not wearing a seatbelt contributed to the extent of your injuries, the non-medical portions of the damages would be laid at your door.

And the fact that you didn't wear a seatbelt would be allowed in as evidence.

Seaboe

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Stressed Nanny
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I hadn't thought about the loose articles thing. I keep my cell phone in front of me, and i don't guess take-out cups are heavy enough to injure me. Would buckling my backpack into the seatbelt be good enough? I dont have a trunk, I have an SUV.

Also, when on trips, our doggie rides in the back area, but we put up a divider so she can't hop over the seats. I'm not sure it would help her in an accident, but it should keep her from trying to bite rescuers.

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"Don't you see? You're not making Christianity better, You're making rock and roll worse." -Hank Hill to the Rockin' Preacher

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BlushingBride
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Stressed Nanny:
I hadn't thought about the loose articles thing. I keep my cell phone in front of me, and i don't guess take-out cups are heavy enough to injure me. Would buckling my backpack into the seatbelt be good enough? I dont have a trunk, I have an SUV.

My father used to teach defensive driving. He has a book with photos taken after accidents where the car was travelling 30 mph or less. There's one where a pencil--an ordinary #2 pencil--has lodged in the windshield. In another one, a spare set of keys flew all the way through the passenger seat and took a chunk out of the dashboard.

He won't let me keep so much as a CD loose in my car (a hatchback--also no trunk. I keep everything under a net in the back).

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Chimera
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm not saying what you mentioned isn't true. I honestly don't know. However as a grown adult I'd pick having my CDs with me over the very off chance that they'd kill me. Now I'm worring about what they are going to legislate next. Well the end to bowling leagues might not be such a bad thing. (I know I was on one but it wasn't cause liked bowling.)

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"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun'

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24K_ Kate
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Stressed Nanny:

Also, when on trips, our doggie rides in the back area, but we put up a divider so she can't hop over the seats. I'm not sure it would help her in an accident, but it should keep her from trying to bite rescuers.

My dogs wear seat belts. Besides restraining them in an accident, the belts would also prevent them running off if I were incapacitated and keep them interfering with the rescuers.

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<---Callisto

I have a 60 second snack idea for Rachel (Ray): Xanax, vodka, fall asleep.--Adrianne Frost, Best Week Ever.

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BlushingBride
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
I'm not saying what you mentioned isn't true. I honestly don't know. However as a grown adult I'd pick having my CDs with me over the very off chance that they'd kill me.

As a grown adult, I do keep my cds next to me. I just don't leave them rattling around loose. I drive a car with a nice little CD drawer under the passenger seat. Not only do I not have to worry about them flying around (although no, I'm not especially concerned about them decapitating anyone), it's neater and I also don't have to worry so much about them being damaged. In my old car, I tucked them into the center console. Before that, I kept them in the glove compartment.

Seriously, though, even in a low-speed accident, the things in your backseat, passenger seat, and dashboard can become dangerous, fast-moving projectiles. It's just a good idea to take basic measures to secure your stuff. I mean, compare the annoyance of a fender-bender to the serious inconvenience of a fender-bender followed by a concussion because your stereo speaker smacked you in the head. Ouch.

Also, when securing things in your trunk... Remember that in most modern cars, the only thing between the trunk and you is a backseat which is designed to fold down and let you escape if you get stuck back there. In a crash there is a chance that it will fold down and let stuff free. If you have anything especially heavy (bowling ball) or sharp and pointy (garden tools) in your truck, you might consider taking the extra precaution of investing in a cargo net to secure your stuff. (My car and my DH's car both came with them.) <--More advice from Dad.

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"In perfume, as in underwear, the scantiest of applications provides the greatest of returns." -Silas Sparkhammer

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by BlushingBride:
Also, when securing things in your trunk... Remember that in most modern cars, the only thing between the trunk and you is a backseat which is designed to fold down and let you escape if you get stuck back there.

Nitpick: In my car, at least, the seat folds down for to carry large cargo (which presents its own issues in an accident). There's a glow-in-the-dark latch inside the trunk to allow you to escape it.

But your points about loose cargo in the trunk are valid. I need to buy a cargo net!

My doggie wears a seatbelt, too. It slips through a specially designed harness that we call her sports bra. It keeps her and us (and any potential rescuers) safe, and it also keeps her from sitting with her head stuck between the front seats breathing hot stinky doggy breath on me while I'm driving.

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Menolly
We Three Blings


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Niner, I didn't write that the Kleenex was a deadly projectile. I said "could knock someone out." And no, I don't have a cite, because it was at a safety seminar a few years ago. I'll get in touch with our friend and see if I can post something on the company hosting the safety seminar.

Gotta admit, tho, if you're in an accident and then you're knocked out, you can't control your vehicle as safely as if you were conscious.

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Let's just pretend we're normal for a minute ~ New favorite T-shirt quote

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tribrats
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waffles

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tribrats
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As far as the OP goes, just a quick update. It's now in the hands of the local police. I don't know if anything has come of it and I don't know if I will be informed. Hubby has been picking the kids up so I haven't been able to see if she is buckling or even been there. Won't know anything for probably a week at least. The kids have this week off for spring break. If I see or hear anything, I will update.

Thanks everyone for the support.

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tribrats
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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I'm dredging this up to give an awsome update. It appears that my turning the woman in may have done some good! I've been watching for her over the last few weeks and there are 3 major changes.

1) Someone else has been picking up the boy (And he buckles)
2) She picks him up without having the other 2 kids (And he buckles)
3) If she has the other 2, not only are they buckled but there is another adult with her! (And the boy buckles)

Anyone notice the common theme? [Wink]

I feel really good about getting involved and I just want to say THANK YOU once again to everyone that supported me. I know getting involved is the logical and right thing to do but its still hard when you know what the outcome could be- but I guess its better than the alternative.

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quiltsbypam
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YAY Tribrats! It's nice to know when you've had a good effect, isn't it?

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"No Biblical hell could ever be worse than the state of perpetual inconsequence." Beatrice in Dangerous Beauty

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tribrats
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Thanks! Yeah, and to see the outcome for myself and not have to wonder if it did any good is a big boost.

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EeyoreCorbie
I Saw Three Shipments


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I just finished reading through this thread and there is one point I haven't seen mentioned in regards to being made to wear a seatbelt. Insurance. I'm not sure about all policies, but when I had USAA I was told I would'nt be covered if I wasn't wearing my seatbelt in the event of a crash, even if it wasn't my fault. I also remember being asked if I was wearing one when I reported damages to Geico (or progressive, don't remember which) when my hood flew up and smashed my windshield. That sure is incentive to wear one.

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It sure is bright in the dark future.
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Ignorance is sad. Willfull ignorance is bad. Willfully spreading ignorance is evil.

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tribrats
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My insurance will cover if seatbelted. It only covers a partial if not seatbelted. My Dad's won't cover if not seatbelted and they won't cover for theft (of any kind) if its not locked. For a long time, my Dad only had his license insured. That way he didn't have to insure each car individually- just list them under his license for the theft/vandalism.

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Seaboe Muffinchucker
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by EeyoreCorbie:
I just finished reading through this thread and there is one point I haven't seen mentioned in regards to being made to wear a seatbelt. Insurance. ...That sure is incentive to wear one.

This is the kind of incentive I love to see. I don't like laws making it mandatory to wear seatbelts (although I go nowhere without buckling up, myself). If you choose not to use one, it should have financial consequences. If you can't afford those consequences--well, you were exercising your right to make a bad choice, and now you have to pay for it.

Seaboe

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Education is not the filling of a hard drive, but the lighting of a bulb. -- Yeats via Esprise Me

Posts: 5562 | From: Seattle, WA | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Griffin at the Maul
Joyeux New Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Hero_Mike:
Umm...living in Canada this is easy for me to answer, but if even *one penny* of my tax dollars are used for health care, then I would demand that the most dangerous types of behaviour are eliminated. Because they cost more money. Driving without a seat belt is just one way we can save money. But if your political bent is to eliminate public funding from things like, say, education and health care, then go after the cause, and not the effect. Once there is absolutely *zero* public money going towards this, then you can create your "free-for-all" utopia.

Using your logic, we should outlaw fast food, as it makes people obese, and that leads to higher healthcare costs. Not to mention the medical problems that smoking and alcohol abuse can cause. Should those be outlawed as well, for the common good?

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Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?

Posts: 782 | From: Arlington, TX | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Griffin at the Maul
Joyeux New Sale


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Seat belted waffles.

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Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?

Posts: 782 | From: Arlington, TX | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Xia
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
But nothing the kid has ever done has compaired to most any animal I've ever transported and to my knowledge there are no laws about those. Have you ever tried to drive with a bulldog in your lap, a snake around your neck (I'm constantly losing my snake sacks) and a shepherd running around your car? Its not an easy task. I hate going to the vet but I'm sure I'm more of the hazzard then than I would be regardless of the amount or lack of restraints of any number of kids in the car.

I know they sell doggie restraints but my sherpherd would have no part in one of those and there are no laws requiring them.

Actually, there are severals places that have laws or are considering laws about dogs being restrained in cars...

Personally I wish everyone would "buckle up" their pets in cars (either by using a car "seatbelt restraint made for dogs or securing them in a crate)-- not only can they cause a distraction as you mentioned and possibly cause an accident (putting others in danger), but if there IS an accident they basically become furry projectiles... An unrestrained dog can slam into/through the windows, windshield, other objects, and even into the PEOPLE in the car, injuring them as well at the dog. In a collision, they will go flying with a LOT of pounds of force...
If any of the windows break during the accident or the door is opened, they are likely to go running off. Even a well-trained dog may not respond to commands after being shaken up by a car accident. I know of several instances of show dogs and agility dogs who ran off onto the highway during/after a car accident, and would not come back when called. Most of the cases, the dogs were struck by other cars and killed.


ETA:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
Yes my numbers were entirely made up. So sorry if that wasn't obvious to everyone but even the police and medics think my mom would now be dead if she hadn't been thrown from the car. I know its speculation and she didn't walk away unharmed. However a multitude of lugage left the back of the car and crushed down the passenger side seat and continued traveling until it also got the chance to smash the dash board.


Think of your dog as a piece of that luggage. The dog will get thrown around just like the luggage would... If you have a large dog, it will suffer (and cause) even more damage. The statistics I have heard say that a in 30 mph collision, a 60 lb dog can hit an object in front of them with 1,200 pounds of force.


Luggage like that technically should be restrained in the car as well, such as with a net or bungee cords, to prevent just what you described.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Posts: 2110 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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