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Author Topic: Saddam to be hanged by Sunday
Freshman
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Story here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16384738/?GT1=8816

To be a real devil's advocate: Saddam kind of kept everything in order and without him, there's civil war. I agree with Matt Cale of Ruthless reviews that democracy doesn't necessairly work with Iraq. But I dunno

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Not_Done_Living
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Democracy has to be the choice of the people.. isn't forced democracy kinda... dictatorial?
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Freshman
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Eh.. I still wish Colin Powell could've talked Bush into listening to the U.N., but since we got stuck in Iraq, we could've handled it far better than knocking down saddam's statue and immedeately having a voting day in Iraq. We should've eased into it and perhaps installed an authoritarian leader to keep things in line temporarily.

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Echinodermata Q. Taft
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I actually think we might have been able to finesse things so that Saddam would have become "our son-of-a-bitch" again, after the 9/11 attacks. But while that might have served our interest better in the short run, it still wouldn't have made it the right thing to do.

I don't think we should have invaded Iraq, and given that we have, I think we've managed the occupation extremely poorly, to the point where the country now has very little hope for stability or prosperity, let alone freedom or real democracy, any time soon.

But that doesn't mean I will shed any tears for Saddam, or that I wouldn't pull the rope if called upon to do so.

--E.Q. Taft

"...it's been six weeks since Saddam Hussein was trampled by a pack of wild boars, and the world is still glad to be rid of him."

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Bug Muldoon
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quote:
But that doesn't mean I will shed any tears for Saddam, or that I wouldn't pull the rope if called upon to do so.
Then you are no better than him.

This is not, in any meaning of the word, justice. A kangaroo court and bloody vengeance, that's what it is. A show trial, neat PR, a circus...but not justice.

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Sly Dog
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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
quote:
But that doesn't mean I will shed any tears for Saddam, or that I wouldn't pull the rope if called upon to do so.
Then you are no better than him.

This is not, in any meaning of the word, justice. A kangaroo court and bloody vengeance, that's what it is. A show trial, neat PR, a circus...but not justice.

And in your opinion, justice would have been what?
Saddam ordered the killing of thousands of Kurds. Would any trial outcome other than "guilty" have been justice? So unless you believe that he is innocent I fail to see the reason for your reaction.

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Canuckistan
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quote:
Originally posted by Sly Dog:
Would any trial outcome other than "guilty" have been justice? So unless you believe that he is innocent I fail to see the reason for your reaction.

Not to speak for Bug, but I think that any court where "guilty" was never in doubt can hardly be called justice.

Something justice being blind and all that.

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Sly Dog
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Canuckistan:
quote:
Originally posted by Sly Dog:
Would any trial outcome other than "guilty" have been justice? So unless you believe that he is innocent I fail to see the reason for your reaction.

Not to speak for Bug, but I think that any court where "guilty" was never in doubt can hardly be called justice.

Something justice being blind and all that.

OK, so the objection has less to do with whether he is guilty or not and more to do with whether the court would have made a different finding under any circumstances?

I don't think ANY court would have come back with a different verdict...well, srike "ANY" maybe because courts often let the obviously guilty go free due to technicalities

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Myshkin
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I think I understand Bug's point, not that there was much chance of a truly blind system failing to convict him given the overwhelming evidence against him.

Perhaps the trial should have occurred in a neutral country, or in the world court. I don't know enough about Iraqi law to say whether this would even be possible.

We may not like it, but it is their law and their judicial system that is in play here. Or perhaps a well-respected arbiter ( I don't know whom, Red Cross maybe?) could have been given a real-time review and input role. I'm enough of a moral relativist to feel that it might be sanctimonious for non-Iraqis to condemn the trial as unjust.

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Cowboy Joe
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It is entirely obvious that he is guilty. Our intelligence, which is second to none, proved that he did all the things he was accused of. All of the good nations in the world, and many Democrats believe this. In fact, we had reports from British intelligence that he . . .

Oh Crap! We've done it again!

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Canuckistan
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quote:
Originally posted by Sly Dog:
OK, so the objection has less to do with whether he is guilty or not and more to do with whether the court would have made a different finding under any circumstances?

I don't think ANY court would have come back with a different verdict...

Irrelevant. The fact remains that this wasn't a fair trial to begin with. It was a show trial.

Whether he was guilty or not doesn't matter. All this trial will do is stir up his followers.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Bug Muldoon
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quote:
And in your opinion, justice would have been what?
An impartial trial before the ICC, not a mock trial with judges who lost relatives to Saddam and the murder of his legal team.

quote:
Would any trial outcome other than "guilty" have been justice? So unless you believe that he is innocent I fail to see the reason for your reaction.
If you know the outcome in advance, your 'court' isn't worthy of the name.

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Troberg
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I agree with the people who has complained about how the trial was conducted. It's not right to try to bring justice to a nation by staging mock trials.

I also find capital punishment anachronistic and barbaric. The goal of any criminal punishment should always be rehabilitation, even of a major bad guy like Saddam.

We also have the issue of hanging. As far as I understand it, his rank entitles him to death by firing squad, and that should be respected. Not respected because of Saddam, but out of respect for the law.

The trial should have been held in a neutral country, anything else will be a mock trial that will just make him an icon to his followers.

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/Troberg

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followsthewolf
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Justice, social or otherwise

Is much like a disease, social or otherwise.

Striking by accident

Contracted by those who screw

around with it.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Amnesty International joins in the criticism of the trial and sentence:

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irq-281206-statement-eng

quote:
"The trial of Saddam Hussein and his seven co-accused before the Supreme Iraqi Criminal Tribunal (SICT) was deeply flawed and unfair, due to political interference which undermined the independence of the court and other serious failings," sad Malcolm Smart, Director of Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa programme. "The Appeals Court should have addressed these deficiencies and ordered a fair re-trial, not simply confirmed the sentences as if all was satisfactory at the trial stage."

"It was absolutely right that Saddam Hussein should be held to account for the massive violations of human rights committed by his regime, but justice requires a fair process and this, sadly, was far from that, "said Malcolm Smart."The trial should have been a landmark in the establishment of the rule of law in Iraq after the decades of Saddam Hussein's tyranny. It was an opportunity missed."



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/Troberg

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Freshman
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Matt Cale on Saddam's sentence: "I shall mourn like a grandmother. He was Iraq's last, best hope." what can I say? the guy's a misanthrope who sadistically enjoys other people's suffering. Nevertheless, he's rather entertaining in a sad, pathetic way, but I digress

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Elwood
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CNN is reporting that Saddam Hussein is to be hanged at 6:00am local time, 10pm EST.

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ASL
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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Amnesty International joins in the criticism of the trial and sentence

Which is surprising, because they like totally support just about every other execution.

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Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
Then you are no better than him.


If ever there was a cliche that needed to go, than this is it.

I have the same problems with the trial as the rest of you, and, if it's possible to make Iraq worse than the war has already made it, I susupect the hanging of Hussein will do the trick.

But once we start comparing other posters to a genocidal dictator, it's possible we've stepped over a certain boundary. Hussein was a mass murderer, whether the trial was perfect or not. EQT has expressed an opinion on the death penalty that some of us, including me, aren't entirely comfortable with. Let's have a sense of proportion.

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Freshman
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ASL:what do you mean?

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Pogue Ma-humbug
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quote:
Originally posted by Sly Dog:
well, srike "ANY" maybe because courts often let the obviously guilty go free due to technicalities

What a laughable, ignorant statement.

Pogue

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Freshman
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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I agree with the people who has complained about how the trial was conducted. It's not right to try to bring justice to a nation by staging mock trials.

I also find capital punishment anachronistic and barbaric. The goal of any criminal punishment should always be rehabilitation, even of a major bad guy like Saddam.

We also have the issue of hanging. As far as I understand it, his rank entitles him to death by firing squad, and that should be respected. Not respected because of Saddam, but out of respect for the law.

The trial should have been held in a neutral country, anything else will be a mock trial that will just make him an icon to his followers.

rehabilitation? what if it doesn't work on some criminals though? I don't know if everyone in Iraq would forgive Saddam if he was re-installed as dictator after spending time in Jail? I just wished they'd call this damned execution off and put him in prision.

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Midgard_Dragon
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quote:
rehabilitation? what if it doesn't work on some criminals though? I don't know if everyone in Iraq would forgive Saddam if he was re-installed as dictator after spending time in Jail? I just wished they'd call this damned execution off and put him in prision.
What if? What if an execution is botched and someone is tortured instead of killed? It doesn't really matter what if, IMO. The goal should be rehabilitation, although I had never even considered such a thing for a dictator like Saddam, because I just don't see it being plausible. Still, I agree that rehabilitation is the goal of conviction and imprisonment, and if it's not then we're just trying to make ourselves feel better.

Also, I doubt that anyone (outside of his supporters) wishes Saddam to be reinstalled as a dictator or any kind of person in power. Just because someone wants to do something other than kill him does not mean they want him to return to power.

I don't know how I feel about the Saddam case, personally. On the one hand, I want the Iraqi people to get to chose what happens to him, on the other, I am somewhat against capital punishment, in a philosophical sense. In practice it may be necessary at times. This might be one of those times, I just don't know.

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Eddylizard
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Well it's a moot point now, since his execution has just been confirmed.It remains tobe seen if he will be martyred by his supporters and strenghten their resolve, or whether this will close the chapter of his reign. I hope for the latter, but suspect the former.

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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quote:
Originally posted by Freshman:
quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I agree with the people who has complained about how the trial was conducted. It's not right to try to bring justice to a nation by staging mock trials.

I also find capital punishment anachronistic and barbaric. The goal of any criminal punishment should always be rehabilitation, even of a major bad guy like Saddam.

We also have the issue of hanging. As far as I understand it, his rank entitles him to death by firing squad, and that should be respected. Not respected because of Saddam, but out of respect for the law.

The trial should have been held in a neutral country, anything else will be a mock trial that will just make him an icon to his followers.

rehabilitation? what if it doesn't work on some criminals though? I don't know if everyone in Iraq would forgive Saddam if he was re-installed as dictator after spending time in Jail?

Who was suggesting returning him to power?

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Echinodermata Q. Taft
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Al Hurra TV says Saddam has been hanged

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Christie
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It is breaking news on CNN.

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Echinodermata Q. Taft
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
quote:
But that doesn't mean I will shed any tears for Saddam, or that I wouldn't pull the rope if called upon to do so.
Then you are no better than him.

This is not, in any meaning of the word, justice. A kangaroo court and bloody vengeance, that's what it is. A show trial, neat PR, a circus...but not justice.

Let me just say that there's a difference between saying he got a fair trial, and saying that I'm reasonably well convinced he was guilty of horrible crimes and that I will not mourn his death.

My intellecutal reservations about the death pentalty (and the US intervention in Iraq) notwithstanding, I can nonetheless feel that this is a person who deserved, probably, a worse fate than the one he got, and that the world is better off without him.

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Freshman
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It's news on ABC too. Betcha the coverage will go on for days

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Snafu
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quote:
What a laughable, ignorant statement.
It'd be laughable if it wasn't true.
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Freshman
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Human Rights Watch points out flaws in the trial: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/11/20/iraq14589.htm

more details here: http://hrw.org/reports/2006/iraq1106/5.htm#_Toc151270359

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Amigone201
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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Ma-humbug:
quote:
Originally posted by Sly Dog:
well, srike "ANY" maybe because courts often let the obviously guilty go free due to technicalities

What a laughable, ignorant statement.

Pogue

Well, you didn't finish this thought (actually, you barely started it), so I'll take it a little further.

I think what Pogue means is that if there are "technicalities" that you can get off on, then you're not "obviously guilty." Guilty doesn't mean whether you did it or didn't, it means that the state can prove you did it, within the constraints of what it's allowed to do.

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ASL
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quote:
Originally posted by Amigone201:
quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Ma-humbug:
quote:
Originally posted by Sly Dog:
well, srike "ANY" maybe because courts often let the obviously guilty go free due to technicalities

What a laughable, ignorant statement.

Pogue

Well, you didn't finish this thought (actually, you barely started it), so I'll take it a little further.

I think what Pogue means is that if there are "technicalities" that you can get off on, then you're not "obviously guilty." Guilty doesn't mean whether you did it or didn't, it means that the state can prove you did it, within the constraints of what it's allowed to do.

That's beside the point. Technicalities should only be used to PUT people in jail.

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Fujicakes
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quote:
Originally posted by ASL:
quote:
Originally posted by Amigone201:
quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Ma-humbug:
quote:
Originally posted by Sly Dog:
well, srike "ANY" maybe because courts often let the obviously guilty go free due to technicalities

What a laughable, ignorant statement.

Pogue

Well, you didn't finish this thought (actually, you barely started it), so I'll take it a little further.

I think what Pogue means is that if there are "technicalities" that you can get off on, then you're not "obviously guilty." Guilty doesn't mean whether you did it or didn't, it means that the state can prove you did it, within the constraints of what it's allowed to do.

That's beside the point. Technicalities should only be used to PUT people in jail.
So you're saying it shouldn't be used to save an innocent life (not inplying saddam, mind you) from death row?
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That_Todd_Guy
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quote:
Originally posted by Amigone201:
quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Ma-humbug:
quote:
Originally posted by Sly Dog:
well, srike "ANY" maybe because courts often let the obviously guilty go free due to technicalities

What a laughable, ignorant statement.

Pogue

Well, you didn't finish this thought (actually, you barely started it), so I'll take it a little further.

I think what Pogue means is that if there are "technicalities" that you can get off on, then you're not "obviously guilty." Guilty doesn't mean whether you did it or didn't, it means that the state can prove you did it, within the constraints of what it's allowed to do.

Actually, since Sly-Dog introduced the word "guilty" into the conversation, he should be allowed to define its meaning so as to not have his contribution taken out of context. It is obvious to me that he means "guilty" in the sense of whether or not the person committed the crime, not in the context of whether or not he was convicted by a court.

And if you revise his sentence to read "It is not unheard of for courts to let the true perpetrators of a crime go free due to technicalities" then would Pogue still consider the statement ignorant?

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