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Author Topic: Expanding the military, without a draft
snopes
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President Bush's call to build up the size of the Army and Marine Corps confronts the U.S. military with a sizable and potentially costly challenge, especially given its recent history of war-related recruiting problems. But one solution remains firmly off the table: reinstituting a draft.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-draft24dec24,1,3762290.story

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The Ota Faction
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Press gangs would do it.

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"Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are." - Anthelme Brillat-Savarin
"That lonely recluse who lives down the road is crying out. So is that pregnant teenager. And the prostitute. And the drunkard."
Join the Free State Project - I did!

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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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A draft is pretty much a thing of the past and I'll be damned if I can figure out why pundits on both sides of the Iraq War debate insist upon bringing it up as a scaremongering tactic. People keep making veiled passive aggressive threats about the "other side" just waiting for the chance to reinstate the draft in order to snatch your "children" away, yet there really is no serious movement in the government, the military, or society at large to reinstate it.

The modern military has no use for poorly trained or unmotivated people. A bunch of people who didn't want to be in the military would be worse then useless to us right about now.

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"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Just give us a 100% increase in pay. [Big Grin] That'd do it.

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"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
A draft is pretty much a thing of the past and I'll be damned if I can figure out why pundits on both sides of the Iraq War debate insist upon bringing it up as a scaremongering tactic.

If it is a "thing of the past" why does your country still have their 18 yr old young men register for selective service? If the draft could never, and would never, happen surely this step is totally unneccesary?

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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keokuk
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
A draft is pretty much a thing of the past and I'll be damned if I can figure out why pundits on both sides of the Iraq War debate insist upon bringing it up as a scaremongering tactic. People keep making veiled passive aggressive threats about the "other side" just waiting for the chance to reinstate the draft in order to snatch your "children" away, yet there really is no serious movement in the government, the military, or society at large to reinstate it.

This has always really bothered me also, particularly as an opponent of the war. There are plenty of arguments against the war without having to use hyperbole to suggest that there's a chance of the drat returning. It's intellectually dishonest at best, and an open attempt to use the same fear mongering tactics of the administration at worst.
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Joe Bentley
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quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
A draft is pretty much a thing of the past and I'll be damned if I can figure out why pundits on both sides of the Iraq War debate insist upon bringing it up as a scaremongering tactic.

If it is a "thing of the past" why does your country still have their 18 yr old young men register for selective service? If the draft could never, and would never, happen surely this step is totally unneccesary?
Mostly habit. Even in its heyday the Selective Service System was volunteer in everything but technicality. There has only been a scant handful of people ever prosecuted for failing to register for the Selective Service, only 20 between 1980 (when the Selective Service System was re-introduced by President Carter) and 1986, and none since then and the government goes after people who don't register for the draft with all the zeal they use to go after deserters and draft dodgers, which is to say they basically wait for you to get in trouble doing something else and for all practical purposes expends no energy in looking for them. 19 of the 20 people who were prosecuted for failure to register with the Selective Service were prosecuted in a big part because they had made public spectacles of not registering, and in several cases had turned themselves in as a form of civil disobedience.

It's an open secret in the American government that a large percentage of men don't register for the selective service, or do so only when they need to to apply for federal assistance or loans and even then its laughably easy to claim "conscious objector status" these days. A man can refuse to register for the draft with practically no real threat of reprisal.

The Selective Service System is really just a bureaucratic left over of the Cold War, and would most likely never make it past the Supreme Court if the government ever did try to reinstate the draft, which is again highly unlikely in today's social and political climate.

And a slight hijack and a personal anecdote to prove how bureaucratically inept the Selective Service System is, in August of 2000, after already being in the military for over three years, I received a letter notifying me that I had not registered with the Selective Service System... a letter addressed to my military command address using my military title. Yes they actually sent, at the time, RM3 Joseph Bentley onboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt a notice that he needed to register for the draft.

That is not a system anyone needs to be afraid of.

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"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." - Rorschach, The Watchmen

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
Yes they actually sent, at the time, RM3 Joseph Bentley onboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt a notice that he needed to register for the draft.

I still remember the Partridge Family episode where 10 yr old Danny is sent his draft notice.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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CannonFodder Global Trotter
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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When I was CTO3 Cannon Fodder stationed in Keflavik, Iceland I also got a notice to register for selective service (I had already enlisted by the time I needed to register, and my recruiter assured me selective service registration wasn't necessary).

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"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

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quiltsbypam
Happy Holly Days


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My ex tried, when he was 18, to send his registration to Selective Service at the address we had. It was returned to us as "Addressee Unknown."

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"No Biblical hell could ever be worse than the state of perpetual inconsequence." Beatrice in Dangerous Beauty

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ASL
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
quote:
Originally posted by Christie:
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
A draft is pretty much a thing of the past and I'll be damned if I can figure out why pundits on both sides of the Iraq War debate insist upon bringing it up as a scaremongering tactic.

If it is a "thing of the past" why does your country still have their 18 yr old young men register for selective service? If the draft could never, and would never, happen surely this step is totally unneccesary?
Mostly habit.
It is no more a "habit" than it is a thing of the past. It may not be a thing of the present and I think we can be reasonably safe that the PEACE TIME draft is a thing of the past, but the draft is absolutely not. The instant there is a war that we really do need to win at any cost (like WWIII) I have no doubt the draft will follow as a result. What selective service does is give us a starting point and a framework for the draft to minimize the time necessary for that draft. It is no more a "left over" of the cold war than nuclear bombs. It was used substantially before the Cold War and will doubtlessly be kept around for use at a later time in the event there is another win-at-all-costs global conflict that requires one. I don't believe for a minute that the Supreme Court will do a damn thing to stop the draft if a major conflict breaks out and volunteers aren't enough to fill the ranks. They'll do their typical "Well, gee, I guess it's sorta like slavery, but not" bit like they did in WWI and carry on smartly. And that's as it should be. The amount of people who are willing to volunteer to fight for their country will not always be proportional to the danger the country is in. If it had been, then there would have been no need for a draft in the year prior to WWII and certainly not during the war itself.

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"Dear Lord, please protect this rockethouse and all who dwell within..."

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ferretdragon
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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I think the draft coming back would not be so bad, I belive all young men and women that don't go to collage should have to serve their country , without the military we wouldn't stay free for long and you don't know how good you have it until its gone.
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ASL
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quote:
Originally posted by ferretdragon:
I belive all young men and women that don't go to collage should have to serve their country

You're funny.

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"Dear Lord, please protect this rockethouse and all who dwell within..."

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by ferretdragon:
I think the draft coming back would not be so bad, I belive all young men and women that don't go to collage should have to serve their country , without the military we wouldn't stay free for long and you don't know how good you have it until its gone.

Ah how I too long for the good old days when those young men without a college deferral found themselves shipped off to Vietnam - bet they sure appreciated how good they had it then eh?

You're 56 - and a woman - it must be so easy to sit back and pontificate about something that will never affect you personally. Unless, of course, you did serve in the military at some point in your life?

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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HollowMan
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by ferretdragon:
I think the draft coming back would not be so bad, I belive all young men and women that don't go to collage should have to serve their country , without the military we wouldn't stay free for long and you don't know how good you have it until its gone.

This seems to me to be a manifestation of the "back in my day kids were better" line of thought. My dad pulls this out every once in a while because the military will "give kids discipline." Because, ya know, kids today NEED discipline since they are so much worse. Let me tell you, the military doesn't necessarily give people discipline, it just gives them a job it's a bit more difficult to get fired from.

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Heisenberg may have slept here.

I got an idea... an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about.

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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HollowMan, while I'll agree that the post sounds like "Back in the ol' days..." stuff, I don't agree about the discipline thing.

I am sure that Satan is throwing snowballs right now, but I am agreeing with Christie (scarey, ain't it?!).

This topic came up on a conspiracy theory board I frequent, and I posted something similar to the following:

The draft legislation is brought up annually by Representative Rangel, co-sponsored by Barney Franks, and is just a ploy to get women and homosexuals to be added as "equal" players to the draft. It isn't new, it isn't novel, and it isn't a sudden conspiratorial plan to take over the masses.

I'd like to see the draft reinstituted, just long enough to draft the loved ones of the people who voted the policy into law - then keep the kids in while the draft is put back into mothballs...

I would MUCH rather work with people that WANT to be there than those that don't.

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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HollowMan
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My point about discipline was simply that trying to teach it is just like trying to teach anything else, some people get it, and some people don't.

And while I like your idea of reinstating the draft just long enough, I realize that has about as much chance of happening as you agreeing with Christie again.

--------------------
Heisenberg may have slept here.

I got an idea... an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about.

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Archie2K
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Someone here once suggested being able to be drafted into any branch of public work. I want to get drafted into the National Park Service. Probably be a better way to serve my country truth be told.

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Vox populi vox canem

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Well, though I will crawl through the internet to throttle you if you tell her, I agree with Christie on a regular basis. I may not share her menu, but she's got a lot going on between her ears that I like.

Archie, I had brought that up in an old thread. I LOVE the idea of compulsory service (sometimes). If you don't like the military, hey, the Peace Corps needs volunteers... as does the National Park Service...

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

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Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by ferretdragon:
I think the draft coming back would not be so bad, I belive all young men and women that don't go to collage should have to serve their country , without the military we wouldn't stay free for long and you don't know how good you have it until its gone.

I think all men and women who can't spell simple words and who do not use proper grammar and punctuation should take remedial English courses.

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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snapdragonfly
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by ferretdragon:
I think the draft coming back would not be so bad, I belive all young men and women that don't go to collage should have to serve their country , without the military we wouldn't stay free for long and you don't know how good you have it until its gone.

Because we sure don't want a bunch of sissified collage artists in the military, they'd probably have Teh Gay from sitting around cutting and pasting pictures of flowers onto jars and stuff.

Wonder if ferretdragon has a draft aged child who is not in "collage".

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"Wolves, dragons and vampires, man. Draw the nut-bars like big ol' nut-bar magnets." ~evilrabbit

(snurched because one of my nutbar family members is all about wolves and another one is all about dragons...)(with apologies to surfcitydogdad)

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ASL
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
quote:
Originally posted by ferretdragon:
I think the draft coming back would not be so bad, I belive all young men and women that don't go to collage should have to serve their country , without the military we wouldn't stay free for long and you don't know how good you have it until its gone.

Because we sure don't want a bunch of sissified collage artists in the military, they'd probably have Teh Gay from sitting around cutting and pasting pictures of flowers onto jars and stuff.

Wonder if ferretdragon has a draft aged child who is not in "collage".

Has it occured to anyone that ferretdragon has the makings of a puppet? I'ts just too perfect. One post and one post only, spelling college as "collage," incredibly ridiculous post that no one would agree with. A 50 something year old woman who was never draftable talking about how all kids these days need ot be drafted... Too perfect. I didn't want to say it cuz I figured someone else would see it by now, but, come on people. LOOK AT HER!

(Oh, and whoever made her probably doesn't have much respect for the South)

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"Dear Lord, please protect this rockethouse and all who dwell within..."

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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A puppet for who though? She doesn't seem to be supporting someone who is the only other poster espousing a particular viewpoint. That is what a puppet (I assume you mean the same thing as a sockpuppet) usually is. And if you think she is a puppet or troll, it is better to report her than to engage in speculation.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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:shrug: I've seen a lot of one post wonders come and go at snopes. Some people seem to register with the sole intent of posting one specific comment to one thread and then they disappear. I suspect if she's sincere that it mattered to her to make her point but didn't matter enough to her to stick around and defend it.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by ASL:
quote:
Originally posted by snapdragonfly:
quote:
Originally posted by ferretdragon:
I think the draft coming back would not be so bad, I belive all young men and women that don't go to collage should have to serve their country , without the military we wouldn't stay free for long and you don't know how good you have it until its gone.

Because we sure don't want a bunch of sissified collage artists in the military, they'd probably have Teh Gay from sitting around cutting and pasting pictures of flowers onto jars and stuff.

Wonder if ferretdragon has a draft aged child who is not in "collage".

Has it occured to anyone that ferretdragon has the makings of a puppet? I'ts just too perfect. One post and one post only, spelling college as "collage," incredibly ridiculous post that no one would agree with. A 50 something year old woman who was never draftable talking about how all kids these days need ot be drafted... Too perfect. I didn't want to say it cuz I figured someone else would see it by now, but, come on people. LOOK AT HER!

(Oh, and whoever made her probably doesn't have much respect for the South)

What's odd about a 56 year old woman supporting the draft. Ok, she couldn't be drafted but her brother, cousins, boyfriend, school friends, could have been ......and some probably were.

So she spelled "college" wrong. You spelled "it's" wrong. I spell a lot wrong. What's that prove?

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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What's "odd," or rather unseemly, is that she makes some pretty lofty pronounciations regarding the lives of thousands, when she herself would never have to walk in those shoes.

That's the height of hypocritical arrogance, IMHO.

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High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by DesertRat:
What's "odd," or rather unseemly, is that she makes some pretty lofty pronounciations regarding the lives of thousands, when she herself would never have to walk in those shoes.

That's the height of hypocritical arrogance, IMHO.

WTF? She's saying what a whole lot of people believed during the Vietnam era. And as far as I know, what a lot of people still believe. The only thing I think odd is that she thinks college students should be exempted from her draft. "Hypocritical arrogance" in thinking people benefit from the military? Huh?

ETA: And, btw, you don't know that she didn't serve in the military, do you?

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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DesertRat
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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You're correct; I don't know that. I made an assumption.

I'd bet a month's pay I'm right, however. I don't know a single one of my peers on active duty right now who favor a draft-- not one. Those who tend to favor conscription tend to do so for the social engineering aspects of it, not the military benefits--which is the absolute wrong reason.

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High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler

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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by DesertRat:
You're correct; I don't know that. I made an assumption.

I'd bet a month's pay I'm right, however. I don't know a single one of my peers on active duty right now who favor a draft-- not one. Those who tend to favor conscription tend to do so for the social engineering aspects of it, not the military benefits--which is the absolute wrong reason.

So? She likely basing her opinion on what went on during the Vietnam era, last time there was a draft. Not everyone opposed the draft. You may disagree with her, but to slam her the way she's being slammed -- to call her names -- is just wrong.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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ASL
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Sara Claus at home:
quote:
Originally posted by DesertRat:
You're correct; I don't know that. I made an assumption.

I'd bet a month's pay I'm right, however. I don't know a single one of my peers on active duty right now who favor a draft-- not one. Those who tend to favor conscription tend to do so for the social engineering aspects of it, not the military benefits--which is the absolute wrong reason.

So? She likely basing her opinion on what went on during the Vietnam era, last time there was a draft. Not everyone opposed the draft. You may disagree with her, but to slam her the way she's being slammed -- to call her names -- is just wrong.
No it's not wrong. It's wrong to say that people should be forced into military service in any time but a time of deepest national peril just because they can't get into college. She's writting post-dated checks that other people's bodies will have to cash. She deserves to be ridiculed if she's a real person. I don't ever want to have to explain to someone that they're serving because someone else thought it would be "good for them."

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"Dear Lord, please protect this rockethouse and all who dwell within..."

Posts: 1093 | From: Japan | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
   

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