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Author Topic: The "Goodbye Weapon"
Dark Blue
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Perhaps if there was an untamperable logging system that records the date, time & GPS co-ords of when it is used, that might be a good idea.
Just to throw it out there, TASERS have a logging system. Only our supervisor's can access them on each taser and it logs date and time a TASER is used, and for how long a cycle.

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I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf. -- On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs by LTC. Dave Grossman, USA (Ret)

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hardhead
I Saw Three Shipments


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There are no lasting effects, merely redness and blistering. Sounds like first and second degree burns to me. What are the effects if the exposure runs to minutes rather than less than 5 seconds? It appears that the range of this weapon is 100 meters or more, none of the volunteers were able to tolerate more than 5 seconds of exposure, how fast can you run the 100 meters? (The Olympic record is just under 10 seconds) Now how fast can you run it if the people behind you aren't moving? Why can't we just dunk them in the water?? Its the Cheney way. [Frown]

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President Bush said what? And you believed him?? Heeeere's your sign

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by hardhead:
It appears that the range of this weapon is 100 meters or more, none of the volunteers were able to tolerate more than 5 seconds of exposure, how fast can you run the 100 meters? (The Olympic record is just under 10 seconds) Now how fast can you run it if the people behind you aren't moving?

You're assuming that the afflicted are at a range of 0 and have to go 100m to get out of range. That's not likely. I just don't see allowing people within 50m and that changes the equation quite a bit. You also seem to be assuming continuous exposure rather than bursts. Bursts would make more sense operationally.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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GenYus
Away in a Manager's Special


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Also forgetting that the weapon is a beam, not an omnidirectonal field. So running sideways would also get you out of the beam.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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hardhead
I Saw Three Shipments


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According to the article in the original posting, "System 1, the operational prototype, is mounted on a Hummer and produces a beam with a 2-meter diameter. Effective range is at least 500 meters, which is further than rubber bullets, tear gas or water cannons. The ammunition supply is effectively unlimited." It doesn't say how far from the emitter the 2 meter diameter was. Unless the beam is highly collated like a laser, or uses some form of lens system akin to a searchlight, the diameter is going to increase dramatically as the distance from the emitter increases. If the beam is not affecting those who are 4 or 5 rows back, (being absorbed by those in front), those in front are not going to be able to move out of the area, whether it is 2 meters to the side or 450 meters down range. My main point was that we have no information provided in the article on prolonged exposure to the beam, it implies that the exposure was limited to that which the volunteers could tolerate, no more than 5 seconds. At 2 minutes do we have toasted volunteers? Even at 5 seconds we have first and second degree burns (at least that was how redness and blistering were described in my long ago first aid training). I don't think that this weapon is as benign as the Air Force is saying. It sounds a little like a never-ending supply of directional napalm.

[Frown]

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President Bush said what? And you believed him?? Heeeere's your sign

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
It doesn't say how far from the emitter the 2 meter diameter was.
If it has a range of 500 meters, I would expect that it's collated like a laser, or very close to it.

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/Troberg

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Dreams of Thinking Machines
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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I wonder what happens to people's eyes if they looked at it?

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Obi Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"
Anakin: "Um, isn't your last statement an absolute?"

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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It's probably a bad idea to look at it, as the eyes contain lots of liquid.

I've also heard stories about birds flying to close to powerful radio emitters going blind from nerve damage, but I don't know if they are true.

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/Troberg

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Dreams of Thinking Machines
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
It's probably a bad idea to look at it, as the eyes contain lots of liquid.

I've also heard stories about birds flying to close to powerful radio emitters going blind from nerve damage, but I don't know if they are true.

I doubt people could really 'look' at it, rather, I fear people might accidentally glance at it in the confusion. Basically I am wondering if a fraction of a second of exposure could cause damage to the eye.

--------------------
Obi Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"
Anakin: "Um, isn't your last statement an absolute?"

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I doubt people could really 'look' at it, rather, I fear people might accidentally glance at it in the confusion. Basically I am wondering if a fraction of a second of exposure could cause damage to the eye.
What if someone is knocked out or incapacitated by the pain shock? They could very well be stuck in a position where their eyes are facing the device.

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/Troberg

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Dreams of Thinking Machines
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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At the very least I think people who are going to actually use this device should have to be exposed to it for a standard dose time( like how police some times have to get pepper-sprayed or get tazed in training).

--------------------
Obi Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"
Anakin: "Um, isn't your last statement an absolute?"

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by dreams of thinking machines:
At the very least I think people who are going to actually use this device should have to be exposed to it for a standard dose time( like how police some times have to get pepper-sprayed or get tazed in training).

I'd actually want to be exposed to it myself, so I could comment on it with more knowledge, and as a kind of self-test (like Bungee jumping?)

(A friend of mine, in the Army, got the standard exposure to tear gas. Poor bastard inhaled when he wasn't supposed to. It didn't do any permanent damage, but, ouch, he was one miserable boot!)

Silas

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by dreams of thinking machines:
At the very least I think people who are going to actually use this device should have to be exposed to it for a standard dose time( like how police some times have to get pepper-sprayed or get tazed in training).

I am not sure of the logic here. They use guns on people, should you be not allowed to use a gun until you've been shot?

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And now for something completely different...

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by dreams of thinking machines:
At the very least I think people who are going to actually use this device should have to be exposed to it for a standard dose time( like how police some times have to get pepper-sprayed or get tazed in training).

I am not sure of the logic here. They use guns on people, should you be not allowed to use a gun until you've been shot?
No, for obvious reasons... Currently, in the U.S., police, military personnel, etc. *are* exposed to tear gas, pepper-spray, and tasers as part of the training to use these "less-lethal" weapons.

You only use deadly force in self-defense or protection of someone else's life. You can use "less-lethal" force in mere defense of property. Being exposed to it gives you a better ability to assess how much property damage is "equivalent" to the pain inflicted.

It really does make sense.

Silas

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Donovan
Deck the Malls


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Actually, the standard recruit's exposure to CS (tear) gas has nothing to do with knowing what the other person feels like. Its called the 'Mask Confidence Exercise,' and it's to show that, yes, your mask does work. You go in there, look around and see that you can function in a gas enviroment with your mask on. Then they have you take it off to see what you've been protected from. Of course, the show the DI's get to watch, and the mutual suffering syndrom are also major parts of why they do it the way it's done.

Now, if somebody is being trained in crowd control, they might be further exposed in order to gain some empathy for those they may have to use it on.

Donovan Ravenhull

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Illius me paenitet, dux (Latin for fun and business)

"It's like trying to hawk pork chops at a kosher PETA banquet." - Esprise Me

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Hardly surprising, in the following days, this brought resentment that escalated into rock throwing, that ended with three kids gunned down by the police. One of the kids was not even part of the violence, he was just taking photos (which mysteriously disappeared in the investigation of the shooting). The charges against the police was dropped, and no one was held accountable. Not even recordings and video where police actually told demonstrators to throw rocks (I think the exact words were, in Swedish, "Come on c*nts, throw those rocks!") and issuing a formal challenge to battle by banging their batons on their shields was enough to make the charges against the police stick.

According to a Wikipedia article based on Swedish-language sources, only one of the three individuals shot was seriously injured; the others "received light injuries by ricochets." As for their being kids, the Guardian reported that the seriously injured individual was age 19. I cannot find the ages of the two lightly injured individuals, but I think it they were minors ("kids"), this would have been reported.

As for the claim that the police goaded rioters into throwing the rocks, I will be glad to consider any mainstream media report of this. But I can't find any. Even the critical Amnesty International report doesn't bring this up.

In conclusion, Troberg, I think you have done your nation's police a disservice. They didn't gun down three kids, but rather shot one adult who was convicted of stoning them*. It was misleading to mention the lightly injured photographer, implying that the police were gunning down a juvenile, when actually this indiviudal was harmed by an accidental ricochet.

________________________
* From the Wikipedia article:

quote:
Heavy rioting broke out and a smaller group of police officers were subjected to a massive attack in which one of them was struck down. While defending their colleague, the other officers fired warning-shots with their sidearms. This halted the bulk of the attack. One attacker continued to throw rocks in the direction of the fallen policeman. Two officers fired at the rioter who was critically injured.


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"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Early: You ever been shot?
Simon: No.
Early: You oughta be. Or stabbed, lose a leg. To be a surgeon, you know? Know what kind of pain you're dealing with. They make psychiatrists get psychoanalyzed before they can get certified, but they don't make a surgeon get cut on. That seem right to you?

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
Early: You ever been shot?
Simon: No.
Early: You oughta be. Or stabbed, lose a leg. To be a surgeon, you know? Know what kind of pain you're dealing with. They make psychiatrists get psychoanalyzed before they can get certified, but they don't make a surgeon get cut on. That seem right to you?

What does this have to do with it? The people to blame for the shooting are those who stoned the police, who returned fire only after one was injured. If I was a photographer hit by a ricochet, that is how I would, I think, feel.

If it is proven that an officer goaded the crowd into stoning the police, that officer would be quite in the wrong -- just like the stoners. We'll see in the next day or two if Troberg can convincingly substantiate that claim.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
According to a Wikipedia article based on Swedish-language sources, only one of the three individuals shot was seriously injured; the others "received light injuries by ricochets." As for their being kids, the Guardian reported that the seriously injured individual was age 19. I cannot find the ages of the two lightly injured individuals, but I think it they were minors ("kids"), this would have been reported.
All three needed intensive care at hospital, on of them for several weeks.

I'm 37. 19 years old is a kid to me.

quote:
As for the claim that the police goaded rioters into throwing the rocks, I will be glad to consider any mainstream media report of this. But I can't find any. Even the critical Amnesty International report doesn't bring this up.
It was at the time all over Swedish media, and the video clip was aired over and over. I can't find it now (video clips that old are hard to find), but I'm sure that Floater or some other Swedish member would remember it.

The banging of batons against shields should be easy enough to find images or videos of, as there was plenty of such footage. It's a common enough tactic for the Swedish police in riot situations. I don't have time to check it now, will do it later.

quote:
In conclusion, Troberg, I think you have done your nation's police a disservice. They didn't gun down three kids, but rather shot one adult who was convicted of stoning them*. It was misleading to mention the lightly injured photographer, implying that the police were gunning down a juvenile, when actually this indiviudal was harmed by an accidental ricochet.
How do you define "gun down"? I define it as being fired upon with a gun, causing enough injuries to fall down, presumably needing medical help.

The convictions for stone throwing was widely criticized for being based on weak evidence. There was no physical evidence at all, just the testimony of the police at the site, which was contradicted by just about everybody else who saw it.

As for the photographer, this was also taped, and as far as I can see, it was a very deliberate shot. Either way, how come he didn't get his photos back? Why did he have to wait weeks before he even got his camera back?

--------------------
/Troberg

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
What does this have to do with it?

Depends what you mean by "it". The conversation that you and Troberg are having? Nothing. The conversation that Silas, Doug and Donovan are having? Stuff.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Some cites (all translations from Swedish are mine):

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/goteborg/story/0,2789,935540,00.html

It's an article about how the police is training to avoid such incidents in the future.

quote:
In practical terms, this means that the police will not have baton and shield, but will instead try to communicate with the protestors in small groups.
http://www.sr.se/ekot/arkiv.asp?DagensDatum=2004-12-16&Artikel=522618

Another article about new tactics, but the interesting line is the opening line:

quote:
At the Gothenburg demonstraions in june 2001, police in helmets used their batons to bash their shields.
Note that bashing your shield with your weapon is considered a formal challenge.

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göteborgskravallerna

Wikipedia. Not that this article is highly contested by both sides, but this is interesting as it is about documented facts:

quote:
There is a huge disagreement about how close the rocks came to the police and above all about how threatened the injured police man was, but some policemen later testified that they felt very threatened by the crowd. Others, among them the TV program Mediemagasinet's journalists, say, supported by film of the event, that Vasagatan was almost empty apart from the 50 policemen and means that the police therefore exaggerated the threat.
Worth noting is that Mediamagasinet is a serious program on the national TV channel and not a sensationalist show.

A shorter version of the article in English can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_during_the_EU_summit_in_Gothenburg_2001

--------------------
/Troberg

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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
Another article about new tactics, but the interesting line is the opening line:

quote:
At the Gothenburg demonstraions in june 2001, police in helmets used their batons to bash their shields.
Note that bashing your shield with your weapon is considered a formal challenge.
The police used to do this in the UK during the miners' strikes in the 1980s. It does indeed look incredibly threatening in news footage and immediately suggests a "fight! fight!" atmosphere.

As far as I know, they've now stopped doing it as well - for similar reasons than the police in Sweden have stopped or are stopping.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
The police used to do this in the UK during the miners' strikes in the 1980s. It does indeed look incredibly threatening in news footage and immediately suggests a "fight! fight!" atmosphere.
Not only is it provocative, it is a formal challenge. Even the word "swashbuckler" comes from this practice. By banging your shield with your weapon, you are basically issuing a "Come get some!".

--------------------
/Troberg

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Yeah, but I wouldn't think that anybody born after 1400 AD or so would fall for it...

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:


I'm 37. 19 years old is a kid to me. [/QB]

It is old enough to vote, to hold property in one's own name, to enter into a legally binding contract, to get married, and to serve in the armed forces.

It is certainly old enough to know better than to throw rocks at police officers.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
quote:
The police used to do this in the UK during the miners' strikes in the 1980s. It does indeed look incredibly threatening in news footage and immediately suggests a "fight! fight!" atmosphere.
Not only is it provocative, it is a formal challenge. Even the word "swashbuckler" comes from this practice. By banging your shield with your weapon, you are basically issuing a "Come get some!".
Earlier in the thread you wrote:

quote:
police actually told demonstrators to throw rocks (I think the exact words were, in Swedish, "Come on c*nts, throw those rocks!")
I responded by asking for a link from an objective source that this had happened.

Are you now conceeding that your police perhaps didn't use "those exact words," but rather made gestures you interpret as having that meaning?

Given that a police officer had been felled by stones prior to the shooting, it seems that the burden is on you to show that the Gothenburg police are, let's say, unintelligent enough to risk their wellbeing by asking a crowd to stone them.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
I responded by asking for a link from an objective source that this had happened.

Are you now conceeding that your police perhaps didn't use "those exact words," but rather made gestures you interpret as having that meaning?

Nope, I just didn't manage to find that video clip. Remember, this was 2001, before all kinds of videos were posted on the internet. I do, however, concede that only one policeman was recorded saying such things.

quote:
Given that a police officer had been felled by stones prior to the shooting, it seems that the burden is on you to show that the Gothenburg police are, let's say, unintelligent enough to risk their wellbeing by asking a crowd to stone them.
You are messing up the order of things. These events took three days. The shots were not until the evening of the second day, while the recording was made earlier.

Edit: In fact, I think that recording being played on TV, together with the behaviour of the riot police, actually fuelled the anger of the demonstrators to the point where the situation became really violent.

Let me also make it clear that I don't blame all police officers who were there. Many behaved responsibly, and the most eff ups came from the police command central. Some police officers even left in protest of what was going on.

--------------------
/Troberg

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