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Author Topic: And Now, the Fake Iraq News.
First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Or: "the real 'civil war'"

Since this doesn't seem to be getting much press here, now that I'm back from wherever it was I went, I thought I'd jump in with a splash:

Warning: requires cerebral activation. Those with inactive cerebrums (Media professionals, Democratic members of Congress) should avoid.

Much of the "news" sources out of Iraq appear to actually be enemy propaganda.

Update.

Still more update.

Even more updates.

Basically, it appears that the main sources for most of the AP reporting coming out of Iraq are at best vague, uncited, and unverified, and at worst known to be from illegitimate sources - people who "don't exist" or even have warrants out for their arrests.

So, does this qualify as media bias, or merely an epidemic level of media incompetence?

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Bug Muldoon
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
So, does this qualify as media bias, or merely an epidemic level of media incompetence?
Obviously, all the news we get is tainted by liberal spies who do not want to see what shining beacon of freedom Iraq has become. If it wasn't for those intrepid bloggers on an obscure conservative website, the world would never have known about this outrage.

They are truly Gods among men, these unnamed sleuths sitting in their mom's basement typing up blog posts. Bless their Cheeto-stained fingers.

*salutes*

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All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of an unseen hand.

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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:


They are truly Gods among men, these unnamed sleuths sitting in their mom's basement typing up blog posts. Bless their Cheeto-stained fingers.

*salutes*

[lol]

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Greg of Winter
Xboxing Day


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Funny, I thought the headline was going to referr to the million dollars the Pentagon sent to plant suspiciously positive news stories in Iraqi papers.

Anyways, they're reporting what the witnesses reportedly said, and then reporting what the US military said, which happens to be different. They're not picking sides.

That's pretty much exactly how a press story involving differing accounts between witnesses, and the police department's official version, would play *here*.

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Meanwhile, at stately Wayne Manor...

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kch8021
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During the Spanish/American War, Joseph Pulitzer, was quoted saying
"You supply the pictures, we will supply the War"

Sounds like George Bush, is of the same mind.

Today I read the Sen. John McClain would like to send 20,000 more soldiers to Iraq. I guess that can be paraphase; "We need a draft"


I have a Son-in-law who is a member of the Nation Guard, the unit has already been to Iraq before he joined, he a sweet gentle man, and I can't see him shooting anybody.

I am a veteran, and I loved my time in Germany, the army helped me become more independent and stronger. If we weren't in a War, I would encourage all 4 of my children to serve.

George, "I will send all 4 of my children, to Iraq, As soon as Jenna and Barbara go, thats only fair.

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
quote:
So, does this qualify as media bias, or merely an epidemic level of media incompetence?
Obviously, all the news we get is tainted by liberal spies who do not want to see what shining beacon of freedom Iraq has become. If it wasn't for those intrepid bloggers on an obscure conservative website, the world would never have known about this outrage.

They are truly Gods among men, these unnamed sleuths sitting in their mom's basement typing up blog posts. Bless their Cheeto-stained fingers.

*salutes*

So, basically, you've got nothing.
You could have just said so.

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Bug Muldoon
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
So, basically, you've got nothing.
You could have just said so.

Riddle me this: of the people in this thread, one has made a claim supported by vague speculation from otherwise irrelevant bloggers. Can you guess who that person is?

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All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of an unseen hand.

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Bug Muldoon:
quote:
So, basically, you've got nothing.
You could have just said so.

Riddle me this: of the people in this thread, one has made a claim supported by vague speculation from otherwise irrelevant bloggers. Can you guess who that person is?
I can guess who just revealed that they didn;t actually read the links.

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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trollface
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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
Basically, it appears that the main sources for most of the AP reporting coming out of Iraq are at best vague, uncited, and unverified, and at worst known to be from illegitimate sources - people who "don't exist" or even have warrants out for their arrests.

So, not entirely unlike the evidence that took our countries to war in the first place, then?

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
Basically, it appears that the main sources for most of the AP reporting coming out of Iraq are at best vague, uncited, and unverified, and at worst known to be from illegitimate sources - people who "don't exist" or even have warrants out for their arrests.

So, not entirely unlike the evidence that took our countries to war in the first place, then?
Not at all. The AP occasionally admits to having made a mistake.
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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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With regards to the actual links, I have to ask, seeing as I've been told many times on here by people on both the left and the right that "the first casualty in war is the truth", and that the propaganda war is just as important as the one fought with bullets, then why would anyone unquestioningly believe only what the Military and the government say? Shouldn't you question all sources? Or is it just the sources that you don't agree with that should be questioned?

I also find it amusing that part of this damning evidence against AP is that they corrected one of their stories once newer, more accurate facts came to light. Somehow this means that they're more likely to be lying, it seems.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:

I also find it amusing that part of this damning evidence against AP is that they corrected one of their stories once newer, more accurate facts came to light. Somehow this means that they're more likely to be lying, it seems.

Is this in response to my comment above? If so, sorry for being unclear. I actually did mean it as a compliment to the AP that, unlike a certain administration, they are capable of offering corrections.
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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
With regards to the actual links, I have to ask, seeing as I've been told many times on here by people on both the left and the right that "the first casualty in war is the truth", and that the propaganda war is just as important as the one fought with bullets, then why would anyone unquestioningly believe only what the Military and the government say? Shouldn't you question all sources? Or is it just the sources that you don't agree with that should be questioned?

I've always said that you should always question authority... and as part of this, you should also always question the motives of the people who are telling you to question authority, because they're setting themselves up as the authorities on authority.

For those links, for example, there's no good reason to doubt what CENTCOM, for one, has said in their emails... except the Iraqi "policeman." But when you find out that the "policeman" doesn't work for the police, that undermines the case against what CENTCOM says (and correspondingly raises their credibility against those who cite the fake policeman.)

I'm not saying this is a case of real bias. More likely, it's just a case of "I want to get the story out first, to hell with checking my facts and sources."

That's one thing that the blogger points out, most of the "sources" being used for these articles are unnamed, anonymous, or at best identified as "police" (but of course, that was the identity of the fake source, so that's not credible.)

I don't believe it's very high on the ethical ladder to use anonymous sources... when governments do that, we call them Fascist Police States.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
I also find it amusing that part of this damning evidence against AP is that they corrected one of their stories once newer, more accurate facts came to light. Somehow this means that they're more likely to be lying, it seems.

One, out of what appear to be dozens. And only very grudgingly, at that. Means they only do it when a big enough stink is raised.

It's Border Guard Syndrome. "We caught THAT one, how many others got past us and through?"

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
I actually did mean it as a compliment to the AP that, unlike a certain administration, they are capable of offering corrections.

That statement is Rather subjective.

First "Dan, that is" of Two

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
Is this in response to my comment above? If so, sorry for being unclear. I actually did mean it as a compliment to the AP that, unlike a certain administration, they are capable of offering corrections.

Nope, I got what you meant. In the links, part of their evidence against AP is that the initial reports of the story mentioned 4 mosques being burnt to the ground. It then became clear that only the one mosque actually was. Subsequent AP stories said that one mosque was burnt. Therefore, AP is likely to lie about things. Apparently.

I can only assume that the blogger is also prone to lying, as at one point he puts the police Chief at working 5 miles away from the events, but later corrects it to 2.5 miles away.

quote:
First said:
But when you find out that the "policeman" doesn't work for the police[...]

Except that that's not been established.

AP say that their reporter has spoken to him while sitting in his office in a police station, while he was wearing an official police uniform. The Iraqi government say that he doesn't. They can't both be true. The Iraqi government, however, do say that he could be a real officer giving an assumed name.

quote:
I'm not saying this is a case of real bias. More likely, it's just a case of "I want to get the story out first, to hell with checking my facts and sources."
If the AP are, indeed, making their source up out of whole cloth, then it has to be a clear case of bias, doesn't it? It certainly can't be accidental. And that is what they are being accused of.

quote:
I don't believe it's very high on the ethical ladder to use anonymous sources...
The press often use anonymous sources. Often the only way to get people to talk is to promise them anonymity.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
I actually did mean it as a compliment to the AP that, unlike a certain administration, they are capable of offering corrections.

That statement is Rather subjective.

First "Dan, that is" of Two

I'm curious what you mean here. Did Rather make errors that went uncorrected when he worked at the AP? Or do you mean his famous mistake, which he's admitted was wrong? And did that have anything to do with the AP?
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Simply Madeline
The First USA Noel


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Since biased blogs are apparently acceptable sources, here's Kos's take on it.
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Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:

That's one thing that the blogger points out, most of the "sources" being used for these articles are unnamed, anonymous, or at best identified as "police" (but of course, that was the identity of the fake source, so that's not credible.)

I don't believe it's very high on the ethical ladder to use anonymous sources... when governments do that, we call them Fascist Police States.

You do realize that the anonymous sources in the story (allegedly) witnessed an extremely violent secterian attack in their neighborhood, right?

Given those circumstances, would you give out your name if you were in their place - knowing that if you did that would likely place you on a hit list for the same group of terrorists that performed the initial strike?

- Il-Mari

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When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both.

- Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek

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Publius
Happy Holly Days


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Let me get this straight:

1. You expect the Iraqi security services, which are rife with disorganization and absenteeism and which have (for some reason) a fairly high turnover rate, and which generally seem to be rather busy, to have a 100% comprehensive accounting of their employees

2. You expect the US government (the same government that puts totally innocuous people on no-fly lists because it messes up their Arab names), which cannot even control those districts of Baghdad immediately outside the Green Zone, and which has absolutely no idea what's going on in most of Baghdad or most of Iraq, to have reliable knowledge of this accounting

3. You trust the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior to supply this accounting. The Interior Ministry is entirely controlled by the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (the Health Ministry, also quoted in the article, is in the hands of the Sadrists). In other words, the Interior Ministry is run by the same people who run the ****ing Shi'i death squads attacking Sunnis in Baghdad. Yeah, I'm sure they're going to be fair and balanced and investigate attacks by their own Shi'i death squads in good faith. Hey, good news! According to the Ministry of the Interior, all those stories about Shi'i death squads attacking Sunni Arabs were totally made up!

Now, are Western actors in Iraq constantly manipulated by sources who have their own agendas? Hell yeah. Case in point: SCIRI's Iraqi Interior Ministry utterly duping the American military above.

Do you know why stuff like that is possible? Well, it's because Westerners in Iraq can't travel anywhere or learn anything themselves, because Iraq is in a state of ****ing anarchic civil war. I wonder how that happened?

Seriously, even if Jamil Hussein were made up (and we have little reason to think he is) what are you trying to suggest? Are you suggesting that there's not a brutal civil war raging in Iraq? Are you suggesting that Baghdad isn't being torn apart by that war? Are you suggesting that Shi'i death squads are not killing Sunnis in large numbers, and vice-versa?

If so, you're even more delusional than I thought.

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
. . . now that I'm back from wherever it was I went, I thought I'd jump in with a splash:

You need to go back again, and find the sense of balance and proportion which you evidently left behind.

We, here on snopes, do not live in a world of absolute good-and-evil morality. We also don't live in a world where any disagreement is a sure sign of cerebral malfunction.

First, I've defended you against others, a good many times. I'm tired of it. Grow up, please. I know you are capable of a balanced, even nuanced, assessment of world events. If you don't have the time and energy to engage in it, then, please, don't waste our time with this tripe.

Silas

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Bonnie
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quote:
Originally posted by kch8021:
During the Spanish/American War, Joseph Pulitzer, was quoted saying
"You supply the pictures, we will supply the War"

Oops, sorry, but that's attributed to Hearst and even then he never said it.

-- Bonnie

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Se non č vero, č ben trovato.

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Canuckistan
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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
We, here on snopes, do not live in a world of absolute good-and-evil morality. We also don't live in a world where any disagreement is a sure sign of cerebral malfunction.

Of course, this should be obvious to anyone who isn't a retard.

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Signora Del Drago
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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
. . . now that I'm back from wherever it was I went, I thought I'd jump in with a splash:

You need to go back again, and find the sense of balance and proportion which you evidently left behind.

We, here on snopes, do not live in a world of absolute good-and-evil morality. We also don't live in a world where any disagreement is a sure sign of cerebral malfunction.

First, I've defended you against others, a good many times. I'm tired of it. Grow up, please. I know you are capable of a balanced, even nuanced, assessment of world events. If you don't have the time and energy to engage in it, then, please, don't waste our time with this tripe.

Silas

Salud, Silas!  -

I was kind of missing First of Two and hoping he was okay. Now I wonder why in the name of DOYC I was. (Missing him, that is, not hoping he was okay.)

In the words of a couple of wise snopesters I say this to you, First:
"Enough - - - I grow weary of you."
(Yes, already!) Give it a rest. Please!
Yeah, I know. If I don't like what you have to say, don't read it, but you're everywhere, kind of like fly crap in black pepper.

ETCorrect spheeling.

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Signora Del Drago:
Silas Salud, Silas!  -

I was kind of missing First of Two and hoping he was okay. Now I wonder why in the name of DOYC I was. (Missing him, that is, not hoping he was okay.)

In the words of a couple of wise snopesters I say this to you, First:
"Enough - - - I grow weary of you."
(Yes, already!) Give it a rest. Please!
Yeah, I know. If I don't like what you have to say, don't read it, but you're everywhere, kind of likd fly crap in black pepper.

I feel the same way Signora. Glad to see that FoT is ok, but not ecstatic about his contributions to the board.

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NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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I realize this is a different war zone, but I think it may be apropos.

Pallywood: The Palistinian use of propaganda, part 1.

And here is Part 2.

Nah - AP wouldn't fall for false news leads.

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

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Archie2K
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I've still got a copy of one of those fascinating yet little watched documentaries that turn up on TV at 1am. It's called Jihad TV and follows the use of media from the other side of the War on Terror™. It mainly focused on the internet Jihadi videos, one of which would fit in well here since it's an actual Fake News Report from Iraq, complete with ski-masked special guest, whoever he may be. There were bits though which focused for example on the debate which appeared on the kids section of Syria TV regards the Israeli-Lebanese war. Seems surreal watching this sweet 11 year old girl saying "I hope Nasrallah sends missiles back to them and kills their children so they can feel what we feel".

Sometimes it seems we seem so complaicant that we're surprised when the other side uses propaganda too.

It was equally absurd seeing a translation of debate show Opposite Direction on Al-Jazeera where the liberal voice was a Palestinian intellectual who supported Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iraqi militants who attack Western forces. The conservative voice, a Morrocan writer, supported Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda's operations.

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Archie2K:
Sometimes it seems we seem so complaicant that we're surprised when the other side uses propaganda too.

Personally, I'm only surprised at those who don't seem prepared to acknowledge that our side does.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Archie2K
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Well propaganda, like terrorism, is defined by which side you are on. The enemy uses terrorism and propaganda. We are freedom fighters and truth seekers. This is precisely the reason why absolute concepts such as good and evil are so useless.

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Vox populi vox canem

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Dreams of Thinking Machines
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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If the media is distorting the news it would be difficult to know the truth of the matter. How do we determine if it is the news source or the person attacking the credibility of the news source who is distorting the truth? It seems very possible in this day in age for media distortion to occur on a mass scale, yet I would not have picked Iraq for my example of how this is possible. Sometimes the effort to know seems as futile as trying to determine whether the number of stars in the universe is even or odd.

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Obi Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"
Anakin: "Um, isn't your last statement an absolute?"

Posts: 166 | From: San Antonio, Texas | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Count on one thing: If you aren't seeing it with your own eyes, count on it being slanted. Just pick a topic and watch a story on it on any network station - then watch a story on the same topic on Foxnews... guaranteed they will be different.

Which is right? My bet is neither, that the truth is somewhere in between and that both are drum-banging to get your ire up.

My eyes were opened back in about 1983 during a long visit to a dentist's waiting room. A copy of Time and Newsweek were on the table - both from the same week - and both on the problem between El Salvador and Nicaragua.

They both used "Freedom Fighter" and "Terrorist" and "Patriot" and "Defenders... but they both told completely different stories about who the "good" guys were and who the "bad" guys were... and both were diametrically opposed. One supported the Sandanista Rebels and the other supported whoever the hell the Sandanistas were fighting (I don't recall who - and I don't recall which mag supported whom).

It was quite the epiphany.

I have soured on the news ever since. I watch biased crap from Foxnews ONLY as a counterpoint to the biased crap I get from everyone else.

And I still only believe about 80% of what I see for myself.

Disillusioned? Nah, not so much... just bitter.

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Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Signora Del Drago:
quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:
. . . now that I'm back from wherever it was I went, I thought I'd jump in with a splash:

You need to go back again, and find the sense of balance and proportion which you evidently left behind.

We, here on snopes, do not live in a world of absolute good-and-evil morality. We also don't live in a world where any disagreement is a sure sign of cerebral malfunction.

First, I've defended you against others, a good many times. I'm tired of it. Grow up, please. I know you are capable of a balanced, even nuanced, assessment of world events. If you don't have the time and energy to engage in it, then, please, don't waste our time with this tripe.

Silas

Salud, Silas!  -

I was kind of missing First of Two and hoping he was okay. Now I wonder why in the name of DOYC I was. (Missing him, that is, not hoping he was okay.)

In the words of a couple of wise snopesters I say this to you, First:
"Enough - - - I grow weary of you."
(Yes, already!) Give it a rest. Please!
Yeah, I know. If I don't like what you have to say, don't read it, but you're everywhere, kind of like fly crap in black pepper.

ETCorrect spheeling.

Jeez louise.

First of Two, however much I disagree with you (which we both know is rather a lot) I welcome you and your frequently contentious posts with open arms, and I hope you will not allow this carping to change you. That said, I find Publius' analysis convincing, and hope that this will encourage you either to reassess or to provide more persuasive arguments.

Silas, Signora, c'mon guys. We each stand or fall by the strength of our case. Let First's OP be judged by that. No need to get personal.

Malruhn, you may be interested to know that in many legal systems (probably including your own) eye-witness evidence is generally considered to be unreliable without corroboration. Because a reputable newspaper journalist will take pains to interview a number of different people on these subjects, the chances are, the finished news article will be a lot more reliable than your own eyes.

Posts: 2370 | From: Arabia | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Signora Del Drago
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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The quote below is just one example of why I agree with Silas on this subject. I had been reading post after post made by First of Two in other threads, as well as in this one, and he manages to insult whole groups of people with snide little remarks and to insinuate that if you* do not agree with him, then you* certainly must be below par in intelligence. Call it carping if you like, but I have never insulted his intelligence, nor would I, even though he gets in his jabs whenever possible - not specifically toward me, but toward others. I don't mind disagreement, but I do mind certain attitudes. Disagree all you* want, just don't imply that you* think people are ignorant because they don't hold the same opinion you* hold.
quote:
Warning: requires cerebral activation. Those with inactive cerebrums (Media professionals, Democratic members of Congress) should avoid.
This statement was not, I realize, directed toward an individual, but given that many of us are Democrats, you get the picture, and I have seen instances where remarks such as that were directed by him toward an individual. Debate is fine. Insults are not. YMMV

*non-specific pronoun

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"This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman
"Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam

Posts: 4020 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Signora Del Drago, G.R.I.T.S.:
Debate is fine. Insults are not. YMMV


Excuse me? What do you mean by this?
Posts: 2370 | From: Arabia | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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It seems the Iraqis themselves are convinced of the likelihood of civil war. Perhaps they should cheer up and read the blogs which First has linked to.
Posts: 2370 | From: Arabia | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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