posted
It takes ten attaboys to make up for one ohshit.
That said, I guess I have a better perspective to see the video in context and I thought it was funny and cute. I didn't see it as torturing the kids, but as playing with them to the extent that we're able. Some of the kids over here are really sweet, funny, charming kids. Others are obnoxious shit heads. Just like anywhere else in the world.
-------------------- "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." Posts: 2776 | From: LSA Anaconda, Iraq | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I think it might have been funny for the first block. However, when the kid had been running multiple blocks, then it became less "good natured playing" and more "asshole power play."
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Actually, Snafu, CF raises a good point--context. Having seen only the video (and witnessed it in a vacuum), I reached pretty much the same conclusion everyone else did--namely, "Wow, what a bunch of dirtbag assholes."
I'm not neccesarily saying that conclusion is incorrect, either.
But I will give CF the benefit of the doubt of having "walked the walk" every day for the better part of the year; he may well be privy to circumstances, naunces, subtleties and attitudes that we are not. I'm not saying you have to instantly agree with him, but at least give him the courtesy of giving some thought and respect to his experience and informed opinion, rather than dismissing it with a somewhat snarky comment.
-------------------- High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler Posts: 3402 | From: New Bern, NC | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dropbear: [qb]So - are the ones who do really nice, kind things also just individuals?
One of my pet peeves is the way organisations such as the armed forces display the individual actions of good people as somehow symbolic of all but the individual actions of bad people as unique to that individual alone.
Dropbear
The difference is that if you just stand by and do nothing while somebody is doing something bad, you are not much better than them. While standing by doing nothing while somebody is doing something good and kind, does not make you good or kind. That is why few people committing attrocities, or just being unkind to kids does rightly reflect badly on the whole army.
Posts: 214 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:This video, disgusting as it is, may help some uber-patriots realise that wearing a uniform does not automatically make you a noble knight in shining armor. Some soldiers can be real pricks, if not worse, in every army.
Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by snopes: Why do you hate America so?
Look, we've been through this before:
I don't hate America. America hates me.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Only the red states, Canuck. Only the red states.
-------------------- High on the wind, the Highland drums begin to roll, and something from the past just comes and stares into my soul... --Mark Knopfler Posts: 3402 | From: New Bern, NC | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by snopes: Why do you hate America so?
He is jealous of our high-crime rate, lack of guarenteed health care, and international scorn.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg: I once heard this joke:
"I was a doctor. I saved many people and invented new cures that saved many lives. But does anyone remember me as the great doctor? No.
Then I became a lawyer. I defended people wrongfully accused of crime and I helped create justice for those treated unfairly. But does anyone remember me as the great lawyer? No.
Then you f*ck one sheep..."
Basically, no one will remember when you say or do something good, but screw up and they'll never forget it. This is why it's so important that all members of an armed force, especially one who is an armed invader occupying a nation, behaves correctly. They will not be remembered for the good things they did, they will be remembered for the bad things, and so will their comrades.
Right or wrong, that's how it works.
While I agree with your general point, I would like to nitpick a bit and say that this video (and the other atrocities we know have been commited by soldiers) is not a "screw up". A "screw up" is an accident. This (and the others) were no accident.
Everytime I have worn a uniform - whether it was for a job or for a social group - I was always told, "You represent your group". I don't see where the Armed Forces should be any different than the damn Girl Scouts in that respect!
-------------------- "I bet a funny thing about driving a car off a cliff is, while you're in midair, you still hit those brakes. Hey, better try the emergency brake." -Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey Posts: 245 | From: Gladstone, MO | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by erinker74: I don't see where the Armed Forces should be any different than the damn Girl Scouts in that respect!
We cannot seriously expect people in a war zone to act the same as those that are not.
I, for one, am willing to cut them some slack.
-------------------- "I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana Posts: 890 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by erinker74: I don't see where the Armed Forces should be any different than the damn Girl Scouts in that respect!
We cannot seriously expect people in a war zone to act the same as those that are not.
I, for one, am willing to cut them some slack.
When their success is largely dependant on winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, they cannot afford to act in this way. “Cutting them slack” means allowing them to sabotage the whole mission. And there is one thing to do some silly and some horrible things, another is to film and photograph them, and allow them to be circulated. Which means that it is likely there are lot of much worse things happening, which are not made public.
Posts: 214 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Which means we should probably pull out of Iraq, right? I just dunno how we can do that with a civil war going on.
1. Look at a map. 2. Find the closest border. 3. Move in the direction of the closest border until it is passed. 4. Allow the Iraqis to sort out their own differences.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Well, if it's a "civil war" then that means that external forces aren't necessary for it to happen, right? It would be harder to withdraw if it was still the original war, because they wouldn't have been able to carry that one on without us being there to fight against.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by snopes: Why do you hate America so?
He is jealous of our high-crime rate, lack of guarenteed health care, and international scorn.
Exactly, you don't know how hard it is to live in a lousy librul', godless country that suffers of a boring low crime rate, a bleeding-heart commie health care that works, and an embarrassing international popularity (though our bankers do their best to get their share of hatred).
No,no.. relax. I don't hate America. I just hate people being assholes. And as in America, everything comes bigger, you guys happen to have the bigger assholes .
Major"running for cover"D.Saster
PS:
As for
quote: Swiss Army biscuits
they are just dry, hard like a piece of armor and they taste like recycled cardboard. You must dip them in some liquid before eating them if you value your teeth. It's a real wonder no kid was hurt when we threw these things out of the trucks.
-------------------- Desperate, but not serious. Posts: 689 | From: Confoederatio Helvetica | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Which means we should probably pull out of Iraq, right? I just dunno how we can do that with a civil war going on.
1. Look at a map. 2. Find the closest border. 3. Move in the direction of the closest border until it is passed. 4. Allow the Iraqis to sort out their own differences.
So, you're advocating that all of our troops in and around Baghdad go invade Iran.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Major D. Saster: ... or Syria ?
And possibly Jordan, assuming we don't have some sort of agreement concerning transit rights with them. Baghdad was the obvious example though.
Posts: 716 | From: San Antonio, TX | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Which means we should probably pull out of Iraq, right? I just dunno how we can do that with a civil war going on.
1. Look at a map. 2. Find the closest border. 3. Move in the direction of the closest border until it is passed. 4. Allow the Iraqis to sort out their own differences.
I really don't think the Iraqis could "sort out their differences" without destroying each other. How about installing Saddam back in? seriously
-------------------- "High-Five!" - Borat Posts: 1056 | From: Racine, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Even better, we can let the helpful hand of Syria and Iran come to the aid of the fledgling Shia led democratically elected government, instill a Supreme Leader and have a Shia dictatorship running in an arc from (Lebanon to) Syria to Iran. Hereby to be renamed the Wheel of Nuisance.
The end result will be rather like colliding matter with anti-matter. A huge amount of energy expended with little to show in the end. I can only predict a minority dictatorship being replaced by a majority (or plurality) dictatorship.
Posts: 1985 | From: Reading, England | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Which means we should probably pull out of Iraq, right? I just dunno how we can do that with a civil war going on.
1. Look at a map. 2. Find the closest border. 3. Move in the direction of the closest border until it is passed. 4. Allow the Iraqis to sort out their own differences.
I really don't think the Iraqis could "sort out their differences" without destroying each other. How about installing Saddam back in? seriously
The process by which Iraqis "sort our their differences" is, in fact, the process in which large numbers of Iraqis kill large numbers of other Iraqis. You seem to believe, however, that the US is actually capable of changing this.
Posts: 1640 | From: New Haven, CT | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:So, you're advocating that all of our troops in and around Baghdad go invade Iran.
OK, I should modifiy that to "the nearest friendly border".
quote:I really don't think the Iraqis could "sort out their differences" without destroying each other.
Perhaps there will be some fighting, but then it will be their own choice and they will fight for their own convictions, not just because some puppet master is jerking their strings. I also suspect that the fighting will not be that bad, as much of the ideological differences between the groups revolve around the US presence. If USA leaves and puts the Iraqis in a position where they have to take responsibility for what happens, they will eventually find some way to make it work.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Freshman: What do you propose then?
I propose an end to the solipsism that has led large segments of the American population to believe that the United States can achieve whatever result it desires simply by summoning up enough force of will. If you want to change reality, you have to engage the reality that actually exists. External reality places real limits on what even the most motivated actor can accomplish.
Sometimes there are no really good options. Sometimes you lose. If you make stunningly bad decisions based on an estimation of your place in the world that's totally , yeah, you're going to lose. In that case, the first and least bad choice that you have to make is to ditch the solipsistic hubris that led you to utterly misjudge the actual world situation in the first place. We haven't done that yet.
The US no longer has any significant effect on the political outcome in Iraq (certainly no effect that justifies destroying even one more American or Iraqi life). It hasn't stopped the civil war from emerging, and it isn't going to stop it now. Iraqi factions are fighting each other because it's a rational choice for them to fight each other; intervening on one side or the other (which is all that US military involvement in Iraq amounts to at this point) isn't going to change that.
The US has no hope of anything resembling strategic victory. All the war aims articulated (however incoherently) before 2003 have vanished. To the extent that we're fighting for something even remotely coherent, we're fighting for (1)American politicians who lack the integrity to take responsibility for defeat before the American people, valuing their own reputations over others' lives (bastards) and (2) to somehow, vaguely, prevent the situation from becoming worse. Unfortunately, the situation has *only* gotten worse throughout the course of our involvement, and is going to continue to get worse now whether we stay or not.
Meaningful srategic victory in Iraq is impossible. That alone is enough reason to pack up and go home right now, before one more American or Iraqi dies at the hands of a US mission that no longer has a point.
But if you need another reason to leave, consider that a war that's already disastrous at the strategic level threatens to become a disaster at the operational level, too.
The US army in central Iraq is dangling at the end of one of the most precariousness lines of supply in US military history. In terms of length, only Sherman's LOS in Georgia and Eisenhower-Bradley's LOS in northwestern Europe compare (as far as I can think of; additional examples are welcome). Sherman was forced to abandon his line of supply entirely (which the US army in Iraq can't do, because there isn't nearly enough refined vehicle fuel in central Iraq to sustain it). Eisenhower and Bradley were forced into an operational pause that set the Allied drive into Germany back six months--and their supply line was at least secure, running through territory that was both populated by grateful liberated peoples and under solid US-UK control.
Our supply line is not secure. Stretching all the way from Kuwait up to Baghdad, it's maintained by mercenary civilian truck drivers who are maintaining our supply line open for a price--and who will stop maintaining it if the cost to them becomes too high. It runs through territory controlled not by the US or UK, but by the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. SCIRI is a close ally of Iran, but it's also the faction that we've chosen to back in the Iraqi civil war. SCIRI thus hasn't really given us much trouble, because we've served its interests rather well.
Suppose SCIRI decides that we no longer serve its interests (say, because we're organizing a coalition against Iran and its SCIRI ally) and thus closes our supply line. How, exactly, is our Army (already stretched to the limit) ever supposed to physically secure the road from Kuwait City to Baghdad?
If we can't rapidly secure the road between Kuwait City and Baghdad against a SCIRI offensive, US units in central Iraq start running out of motor vehicle fuel in fairly short order. Either they conduct a fighting withdrawal from Iraq right then, or suddenly you've got 150,00 US troops stuck in central Iraq without their vehicles. At that point they either have to hunker down in the middle of hostile territory while we get some kind of desperate relief force together, or they, like, try to walk out through Kurdistan. And they die in large numbers.
It's hard to say just how likely this scenario really is right now. It was, however, unthinkable even just a year ago. What will it be a year from now?
We need to get out. Now. It could make the difference between reliving our own Vietnamese experience, and reliving that of the French.
Posts: 1640 | From: New Haven, CT | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Freshman: all right then, but there's no sign of the u.s army leaving soon.
For many of us, that is a problem. Hopefully, it is one that will be corrected just as soon as this administration pulls its collective head out of the sand and starts looking at the reality we have instead of the reality they want to have.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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