-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Tonight should be interesting. Still pretty quiet here at the moment.
-------------------- "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." Posts: 2776 | From: LSA Anaconda, Iraq | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
For what it's worth, I haven't heard anything worse than a lot of celebratory gunfire shortly after the news broke. I've also heard whispers of perpetual curfews but it wasn't made clear in what areas or cities this was taking place.
Wait, Tikrit demonstrators are defying curfew, so CNN says.
That's about all that's going on at the moment at any rate.
-------------------- It can't rain all the time. Posts: 1102 | From: Iowa | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Apparently his supporters have threatened to unleash hell, or words to that effect.
As if they hadn't done enough harm to their own people...
-------------------- You fool! That's not a warrior, that's a banana! - a surreal moment in a role-playing game Posts: 2480 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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As much as he deserves punishment (although I'm against capital punishment), the trial against him has been a sad story. Three of his defendants has been allowed to be killed, he has not been given proper opportunity to defend himself, he has been subjected to undue pressure and the court has been heavily influenced by the occupying US regime. That he didn't give his victims a fair trial is not an excuse. Justice is not about matching atrocities, it's about a fair trial. A mock trial like this will cause a lot of people to doubt the verdict.
If he is executed without a proper trial, it will just be another murder, much like Saddam himself engaged in. It shouldn't be hard to fing him guilty in a real trial, so let's restart it and do it right this time.
Still, I doubt it's over, he's bound to try for an appeal, which will probably be possible because of this effed up trial.
quote:Apparently his supporters have threatened to unleash hell, or words to that effect.
Well, they clearly have no other way of making their voice heard. It's not like they could vote for Hussein in the election, as one would have been able to in a democracy. What are they expected to do?
I don't defend violence, but it's not hard to understand why it happens, so why feed the flames?
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Troberg Still, I doubt it's over, he's bound to try for an appeal, which will probably be possible because of this effed up trial.
quote:The case will be automatically appealed to the Appellate Chamber of the Iraqi High Tribunal. The defense has 30 days to file any motions.
There is no limit to how long the appeals process can take.
The appeals process was likely to take three to four weeks once the formal paperwork was submitted, a court official told The Associated Press.
On the TV news this morning they were suggesting that this process would begin on Monday, but I can't find a cite for that.
Of course if one believes that the original trial was flawed (and I'm not taking a view) then there is no reason to think the appeal will be conducted to higher standards.
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
While I have no real doubt Saddam is guilty, and certainly don't think the punishment is out of proportion to the crime (assuming the death penalty is ever appropriate, then it is appropriate here), I have to agree the trial was a mess. If such a trial took place in the US, I think it would have been decleared a mistrial several times (having your defense attorney assasinated certainly would be grounds).
Of course, you can make the case that it would be pretty much impossible for him to get a fair trial anyway, given his noteriety and that it seems impossible that any Iraqi judge or jury could not be prejudiced. But standards in this regard just have to be different where heads of state are concenred. (Can the Senate be an impartial jury in an impeachment? Judging by the two historical examples, it seems far more likely most Senators will vote primarily based on their politics than the facts of the case.)
If the sentance is actually carried out, while it certainly won't be a unique event in history, it will be a pretty atypical one for modern times. Somehow I doubt it will be much of a deterrent for other dictators, however...
quote:Originally posted by Troberg: A mock trial like this will cause a lot of people to doubt the verdict.
... and trials in general, to a lesser extent. That's why I said they should have killed him when they found him. And used his carcass for the kickoff in the next Super Bowl.
-------------------- "Well, it looks we're on our own ... again."--Rev. Lovejoy Posts: 3572 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: Sep 2003
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I wonder if Tony Blair will condemn the verdict, as promised?
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote: "I welcome that Saddam Hussein and the other defendants have faced justice and have been held to account for their crimes," British Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett said in a statement decrying the "appalling" atrocities committed by Saddam's regime.
Though unlike a lot of other European countries, the UK has, as far as I've seen, not said anything about the nature of the penalty.
posted
Listening to Margaret Beckett this morning on 'BBC News 24' she made no reference to the sentence, but was pleased that Hussain has been brought to justice. I think if she agreed with the sentence then she would have said so. Thus, reading between the lines, I think she would have preferred a life sentence.
I believe that Tony Blair is against the death penalty, so I would be surprised if he agrees with the death penalty. Sir Menzies Campbell, the Liberal Democrat leader, has said that Hussain should be imprisoned for life.
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Pogue Mahone: Just in time for the U.S. elections.
Pogue
Thanks Pogue, I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that reaction...if nothing else it's definitely a perfectly timed salvo in the propaganda war...
-------------------- 'Do not follow in the footsteps of the wise, seek instead what they sought' Matsuo Basho Posts: 97 | From: Adelaide, South Australia | Registered: Sep 2005
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Before the trial started, Blair said that the UK couldn't support any trial that could lead to the death penalty, and even mentioned the possibility of removing UK troops, were such a trial to begin. I think that this is slightly changing the tune.
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I don't support the death penalty, and this case is no exception. However, I don't think I'm going to mourn too hard for the guy.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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Eh, I'm sure alot of people had better lives under his rule for one reason or another, maybe they benifitted from his corruption, maybe they lived in an area/group he really didn't care about one way or another, or maybe they were just better at keeping their heads down..
However it seems clear alot of people/groups did suffer badly under his rule from himself, his sons, and his army, I don't for a second think that he as a good guy or should have stayed in power.
I will believe however until a decent argument can be made that we should never have gone in when we did, and also believe that the powers that be drummed up this war by either blatently lying or by picking and choosing what information to tell the public and how to tell it (not saying I can prove it, just saying its what I believe).
But even with that, Saddam was a bad guy, and deserved to be taken down, just not sure that we did it in a very good way and we certainly didn't do it with very good timing.
Civilization Rule #2: Never start two wars at the same time unless you absolutly have to...
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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I don't think you have to believe that Saddam Hussein was a good guy in order to believe that for many (most?) Iraqis life was better under his rule than it is now. In other words, he was bad but we made things worse.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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Perhaps, but by removing him could we have potentially made things better in the long run? At this point.. I don't know, I'm tempted to say "no" only because I think we are gonna run up against a point where we (thanks to our fearless leaders ignorance) won't have enough troops to commit to the liberation and simply will not be able to push the resistance down enough, after enough time of that the populace will get frustrated, opposition to "cut and run" will change and conservitives will adopt that position, claim they have always been against the liberal's war, and adopt hte slogan "operation patriotic exit", and we will leave Iraq a smoldering ruin waiting for the next despot to take charge..
However, I do believe it things were handled better, more honestly and at a more appropriate time, we could have done alot more good there, so the idea of removing him vs. not removing him to me is not hte issue we are dealing with in reality, but the issue of when (which we scrwed up totally).
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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I don't think that occupying and building democracy in Iraq could have been executed properly even by the best strategists of history - it was doomed to be a failure from the start.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mickey Bleu: Eh, I'm sure alot of people had better lives under his rule for one reason or another, maybe they benifitted from his corruption, maybe they lived in an area/group he really didn't care about one way or another, or maybe they were just better at keeping their heads down..
However it seems clear alot of people/groups did suffer badly under his rule from himself, his sons, and his army, I don't for a second think that he as a good guy or should have stayed in power.
I will believe however until a decent argument can be made that we should never have gone in when we did, and also believe that the powers that be drummed up this war by either blatently lying or by picking and choosing what information to tell the public and how to tell it (not saying I can prove it, just saying its what I believe).
But even with that, Saddam was a bad guy, and deserved to be taken down, just not sure that we did it in a very good way and we certainly didn't do it with very good timing.
Civilization Rule #2: Never start two wars at the same time unless you absolutly have to...
but apparently, Iraq's much more dangerous that it was with Saddam. I do basically agree with you, Mickey
-------------------- "High-Five!" - Borat Posts: 1056 | From: Racine, WI | Registered: Jun 2006
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Obviously I can't be certian either, and I have to admit that the naive core of me wonders why many Iraqis are killing each other and Americans instead of using the opportunity to build a democracy - it certianly does not seem like the reasonable thing to do. However, I remind myself that to me even the mindset of Republicans in the USA seems irrational and even evil. Regardless of what I think people ought to do, history has shown that they will tend to do something bad. Thus, I have a very pessemistic approach to things like bold military ventures. I think people should always ask themselves "What's the worst that could happen?" and if they are lucky, that's what will happen.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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Eh, I think alot of those with power to change don't want democracy, they just want their own dictatorship.
Democracy requiers alot of faith in your contrymen, and a willingness to give up some of your wishes on how a country should be run, I'd wager alot of people in this country, at one point or another, wish we werne't a democracy when we see the populace doing something we consider to be blindingly stupid (like supporting a war that never should have been) but again, we only would want the dictatorship if we were the ones calling the shots.
Beyond that I imagine people think on the small term, think how easy it is to get Americans, who again are largely better off then people from the mid-east to start rioting.. Not imagine these people who have had to scrap for everything their whole lives see the opportunity to grab something.
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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-------------------- Let's drink to the causes in your life: Your family, your friends, the union, your wife. Posts: 11325 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
As if it had anything to do with anything, it was fairly clear he would be convicted sooner or later, just a matter of when.
If they actually did something of consequence to the war, like you know find Osama, or break the resistance in some serious way, that may be worth trumpeting.
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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There was a documentary from Iraq recently in which a Shi'ite woman who had just been injured in an attack was screaming for the return of Saddam. It seems that for some, the predictable horror of Saddam's regime was easier to live with than the violent chaos which currently exists.
I have the same opinion as Mickey Blue. I oppose the death penalty but won't be lying awake at night.
Posts: 1985 | From: Reading, England | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Archie2K: It seems that for some, the predictable horror of Saddam's regime was easier to live with than the violent chaos which currently exists.
I have to disagree to this statement: for many people it's objectively worse in Iraq right now than it was under Hussein, and so I don't think it is fair to say that they are unhappy because they want predictability when Iraqis are getting killed much faster now than they were under Hussein.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
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Well, like I said before, right now we have worse but with potential to get better, before we had bad with no real chance for any change.. Now the 64K question is "will it get better or not"?
The hopeful side of me wants to say yes, but the realistic, or perhaps at this point pessemistic side of me wants to say waht I said earlier, that we will eventually pull out once the war becomes unpopular enough for the conservitive politicians to finally drop it completely, and will have accomplished nothing more then wrecking up the place before serving it up to the next dictator.
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:It seems that for some, the predictable horror of Saddam's regime was easier to live with than the violent chaos which currently exists.
To understand the situation, one has to understand that Iraq under Saddam was a fairly safe place, if you knew when to shut up. The horror was not just predictable, it was avoidable. Iraq under US occupation, on the other hand, is a mess of random violence. Under conditions like that, it's easy to look back at the earlier safety and think that shutting up was not such a high price after all.
Of course, that's not a long term route to democracy, but people want to be safe. The current situations encourages people to go back to the old system, rather than going forward to a real democracy.
I think that in the long run, the continual exposure to western culture, ideas and ideals would have undermined Saddams power base to a point where he would have to reform, step down or be removed, much like Salazar was removed in Portugal. When everybode recognize that the emperor is naked, it only takes the voice of a single child to expose him and make it impossible for him to rule. Before the current war, I heard an Iragi respond to the claim that they are only fed the official information with "If that's the case, how comes that almost every house has a satellite dish?". We should have let time pass, and instead of giving Saddam ultimatums he could never accept we should have given him a way to stand back with preserved dignity. In time, his own people would get fed up and remove him, and we would have the seed for a new democracy.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mickey Bleu: [...]I'd wager alot of people in this country, at one point or another, wish we werne't a democracy when we see the populace doing something we consider to be blindingly stupid (like supporting a war that never should have been) but again, we only would want the dictatorship if we were the ones calling the shots.
Bush has said exactly that - that he'd like to be part of a dictatorship, where he is the dictator.
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Bush has said exactly that - that he'd like to be part of a dictatorship, where he is the dictator.
He said it would be easier, which is technically correct. Critize the man's actions, not his poor jokes.
-------------------- All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of an unseen hand. Posts: 6912 | From: Flanders | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Issuing the death penalty to Saddam will further raise his iconic status to his followers, and incite more hatred, not just at Shi'ites, but at the west. Better that he rots in prison, enduring endless retrials to save his neck, and with his ongoing captivity serving as a reminder that justice is being done.
-------------------- On my old guitar sell tickets, so someone can finally pick it. Posts: 799 | From: Dublin, Ireland | Registered: Mar 2006
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