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Author Topic: Cheney openly endorses torture
Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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Ah, but it turns out he wasn't talking about waterboarding at all, just 'a dunk in the water' - whatever that is.

quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The White House said Friday that Vice President Dick Cheney was not talking about a torture technique known as "water boarding" when he said dunking terrorism suspects in water during questioning was a "no-brainer."

Peppered with questions about the remarks, Snow said Cheney did not interpret the question as referring to water boarding and the vice president did not make any comments about water boarding. He said the question put to Cheney was loosely worded.

The administration has repeatedly refused to say which techniques they believe are permitted under the new law. Asked to define a dunk in water, Snow said, "It's a dunk in the water."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/27/cheney.torture.ap/index.html

- Il-Mari

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Steve
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Il-Mari:
Ah, but it turns out he wasn't talking about waterboarding at all, just 'a dunk in the water' - whatever that is.

What do you mean "Whatever that is?" Snow defined it very clearly:

"Asked to define a dunk in water, Snow said, 'It's a dunk in the water.'"

Sheesh. It's as though you think the White House would somehow hire an inarticulate spokesman.

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Asked to define how long a dunk in the water is, Snow responded, "That's classified information! If we release that information, it undermines national security! Why do you want to support the terrorists? Guards!"

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by El Camino:
I think it's interesting how this technique was recently banned as torture by the US military, but not in the CIA. How can it be torture if one group uses it but not another?

I'm afraid that, as a broad generalization, our military has higher moral standards than our CIA.

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"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
Of course, I read in various places that torture is very UNreliable way of getting information. It will get "information", but not good information.

Doug, I've posted remarks here, quite similar to yours above, several times, and I really believe you are correct as far as our type of harsh interrogation is concerned. And yet I think I knew in the back of my mind of that I was painting too rosy a picture of human nature and society, to claim that evil interrogation never works out to the best for the torturer.

I just found a link summarizing something I recently read in The Looming Tower. The following depressing but illuminating passage, concerning bin Laden's top lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, is from the New Yorker:

quote:
Under interrogation, Zawahiri admitted that "Dr. Isam" was actually Qamari, and he also confirmed that Qamari had supplied him with weapons. Qamari was still unaware that Zawahiri was in custody when he called the Zawahiri home and made a date for the two of them to meet at the Zawya Mosque in Embaba. The [Egyptian] police arrested Qamari when he arrived at the mosque. In Zawahiri's memoir, the closest he comes to confessing this betrayal is an oblique reference to the "humiliation" of imprisonment: "The toughest thing about captivity is forcing the mujahid, under the force of torture, to confess about his colleagues, to destroy his movement with his own hands, and offer his and his colleagues' secrets to the enemy." Qamari was given a ten-year sentence. "He received the news with his unique calmness and self-composure," Zawahiri recalls. "He even tried to comfort me, and said, 'I pity you for the burdens you will have to carry.' "
Note that in order for torture to work, it has to be severe, and the victim probably has to know for a fact that he's going to be tortured to death if the information doesn't actually help the interrogators. It requires an entire ongoing system of evil.

We still need the information to protect ourselves, but I favor getting it through electronic means rather than interrogation.

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"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
What's next? Torture of US citizens because it might save lives? Heck, why not torture as punishment, that'll teach them to not drive carelessly again and endanger lives! Why not move back to the medieval times while we are at it?

Look, I'm only going to say this once: Shut up! Don't give them any ideas! [Wink]

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Il-Mari
We Three Blings


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve:
quote:
Originally posted by Il-Mari:
Ah, but it turns out he wasn't talking about waterboarding at all, just 'a dunk in the water' - whatever that is.

What do you mean "Whatever that is?" Snow defined it very clearly:

"Asked to define a dunk in water, Snow said, 'It's a dunk in the water.'"

Sheesh. It's as though you think the White House would somehow hire an inarticulate spokesman.

Oh now I get it - he was probably talking about this:

 -

I wonder whether this is mentioned in the Geneva Conventions.

- Il-Mari

--------------------
When you mix faith with science, you serve neither and weaken both.

- Richard P. Sloan and Larry VandeCreek

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Bug Muldoon
The "Was on Sale" Song


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Bush: "We don't torture"

quote:
US President George Bush has reiterated his position that the US administration does not condone torture, following comments by Vice-President Dick Cheney.

In an interview, Mr Cheney agreed that "a dunk in the water" for terrorism suspects during questioning in order to save American lives was a "no-brainer".

The damage control has started.

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trollface
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No, the US doesn't torture. It just farms out prisoners to countries who do.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Mouse
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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This site has some pictures of waterboards, including one showing how it is used painted by a survivor of the Khmer Rouge. Here

Mouse the "Can't believe being opposed to torture's a radical decision." Louse

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"I distrust who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony

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Archangel
Spider Cider


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As ever, the VP admits to the least of the things. You can be sure 'waterboarding' is the most mild of the tortures US govt employees are trained to perform on their captives.

There's a whole kit of torments the US military and CIA carry with it to unroll at each destination they rest. The trick currently in play is to imply that each time from now on you hear about official US tortures taking place, it is only/merely waterboarding.

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
No, the US doesn't torture. It just farms out prisoners to countries who do.

That is probably the most disturbing bit of truth.

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Seraphina
Deck the Malls


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Anybody who thinks that "waterboarding" is maybe not so bad, why don't you try it? It is quite easy, next time you are having a shower, place a wet wash cloth tightly over you face, and then stand under the shower with the water hitting your face. You will not be able to breath, you will feel you are suffocating. Then imagine you are strapped down to a board and cannot stop this.
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RBCal
Deck the Malls


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I just saw the movie "Catch A Fire" which is a true story about recent South African history.

What I found striking was that the torture methods used by the previous apartheid government included "waterboarding".

It makes me ashamed to be an American that our government has deteriorated to such an extent that it uses torture. This is not what free democratic societies do.

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"The women who embraced in the wagon were Adam and Eve crossing a dark cathedral stage—no, Eve and Eve, loving one another as they would not be able to once they ate of the fruit and knew themselves as they truly were." - Lynn Cheney, Sisters.

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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We see it in action movies pretty frequently: the hero is captured and tortured but he escapes and later kills his torturers. Would a person tortured by US agents be justified in killing them if he ever got the chance? I think yes, especially because official, legal punishment for them is very unlikely. How far does that justification for revenge go? To all members of the organization that carried out the torture? To all US citizens? I try to imagine myself as a civilian captured and tortured by some foreign country and I think that (presuming my will was not totally broken, as it likely would be) I would become murderously hostile towards at least the military and espionage agencies of that country. The US makes mistakes, and so what would an innocent person captured and tortured by the US be justified in doing to Americans, and to me personally?

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Dreams of Thinking Machines
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You'd think the resources of the U.S government would be such that they could come up with a good enough lie detection/interrogation system that would make torture unnecessary.

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Obi Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"
Anakin: "Um, isn't your last statement an absolute?"

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by dreams of thinking machines:
You'd think the resources of the U.S government would be such that they could come up with a good enough lie detection/interrogation system that would make torture unnecessary.

Of course, the government STILL uses polygraphs to "find" spies in their ranks. [Roll Eyes]

Note, for those of you who don't know, the polygraph is notoriously inaccurate and can be fooled by even the most basic techniques and has yet to catch a spy, yet our government uses it to "clear" suspects.

There is a chance I may need to take one to get to the next level where I work. I am not sure what to do. Just take it and shut up, so actually train a bit and show them how easy it is to fool.

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Dreams of Thinking Machines
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by dreams of thinking machines:
You'd think the resources of the U.S government would be such that they could come up with a good enough lie detection/interrogation system that would make torture unnecessary.

Of course, the government STILL uses polygraphs to "find" spies in their ranks. [Roll Eyes]

Note, for those of you who don't know, the polygraph is notoriously inaccurate and can be fooled by even the most basic techniques and has yet to catch a spy, yet our government uses it to "clear" suspects.

There is a chance I may need to take one to get to the next level where I work. I am not sure what to do. Just take it and shut up, so actually train a bit and show them how easy it is to fool.

Ah, but could you fool or learn to fool a fMRI lie detector? If they spent the time and money to develop fMRI technology they could replace polygraphs altogether.

--------------------
Obi Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"
Anakin: "Um, isn't your last statement an absolute?"

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by dreams of thinking machines:
Ah, but could you fool or learn to fool a fMRI lie detector? If they spent the time and money to develop fMRI technology they could replace polygraphs altogether.

I would be all for that. I would be HAPPY if they started using a more reliable test (or a test that had ANY reliability). However, what they use now is the polywantacracker test.

Worthless. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
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Seraphina
Deck the Malls


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What I find most strange is that some "suspects" are tortured weeks, months or even years after they were caught. Considering that they are kept in total isolation from the outside world, what sort of information they could possibly have? Even if some people know someting at the moment of capture, as soon as their acomplices realise that they are in custody, surely they change plans.
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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
What I find most strange is that some "suspects" are tortured weeks, months or even years after they were caught. Considering that they are kept in total isolation from the outside world, what sort of information they could possibly have?

They might just need some verification of other information. Like those WMDs in Iraq.
[fish]

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And now for something completely different...

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