quote:Originally posted by tootiredtocare: Okay if they are supposed to not be allowing liquids and gels on planes because they could be explosive why are they dumping them all into the same bins? Did none of these security people take chemistry classes?
Yes I do find the whole story a crock of ****. Like other supposed terrorist plans this will just be a group of loons that never had a single chance of succeeding or even doing anything whatsoever.
Also it should be noted that these loons were under watch for months and it appears their arrest was orchestrated today to help Blair and Bush out. Blair is facing a mutiny in the Parliament.
Lets face it all the recent supposed terrorist plots broken up recently and endlessly hyped were nothing but groups of morons with idiotic fantasies fueled by undercover intelligence agents desperate for career boosting arrests.
Are you the same type of guy who when the bombs go off shouts "Where was the intelligence? Why did they not find these people?". "Loons" like these people did a lot of damage to the London Underground a year ago. But of course, these guys are incompetent according to you. And if the police catch them, it was all phony.
My BS meter is going overtime here.
You state they never had a chance. Why? Do you have a cite? Boy, I am glad your crystal ball is working. Now I feel safe. Where were you July 7, 2005? Or are you saying they are so incompetent, the police were bound to find out..wait a minute, they did.
So is there anyone in the universe (other then you) who is competent? The police all have an agenda to further their careers. The terrorists are buffoons, the politicians are crooks (OK, so you were are right once..don't let it get to your head).
You may be too tired to care, but I sleep much better at night knowing you are here to point out the errors of those around you. Thank you.
-------------------- "We keep finding better ways to celebrate mediocrity"---Mr. Incredible
Assume at least one edit for typos..my keyboard and I fight alot :) Posts: 275 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by tootiredtocare: Why would you need a detonator when quite a number of liquid explosives only explode when they are mixed together? An electronic trigger is meant to open the connection between the liquid and gel containers allowing the two to be mixed at the proper time. Kinda hard to set it by remote otherwise and it's a lot easier to smuggle the stuff through the cargo then in carryon.
Also it should be noted that terriosits for quite a while have more elaborate and more devasting methods of exploding. Such as plastic explosives made to look like figurines a tourist would take as a souvernier. You just put in the fuse and boom! These plastic explosives since they are formed into such a mold to disquise themselves leave no trace that can be detected.
Seriously this whole matter is suscipious. They have milked a lot of other moronic terrioistic plots by wannabes and the deluded. Unless shown otherwise I consider this a smokescreen to make people talk about terriosits then the war in Iraq or how the Republicans are looking to lose big.
WTF? MAKE UP YOUR MIND! Are they morons who couldn't do this or are they capable of elaborate bombs. Dude, you contradict yourself in the same bloody post!
And please learn to spell check..What is a "terriosits"...some strange disease?
The irony is, I am going to go to bed soon..cause I am really "tootiredtocare"
-------------------- "We keep finding better ways to celebrate mediocrity"---Mr. Incredible
Assume at least one edit for typos..my keyboard and I fight alot :) Posts: 275 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Morgaine La Raq Star: So, why the ban on books? Where do books come into this? I can't find anything that says why books have been banned.
Me neither. I think what happened was that a group of experts sat down and decided what was essential on a flight. Everything that wasn't on the list was banned. So books weren't so much banned as not included. I suspect that time management was a big concern: there are plenty of items, such as books, that a few seconds' scrutiny would show are harmless. But a few seconds per passenger, in an airport processing 180,000 passengers a day, would make everyone's long wait even longer.
Incidentally, the permitted list doesn't include any kind of writing implement: this means even longer at immigration at the other end, since you can't fill in your landing card in advance on the aeroplane. And what about filling out a departure card, which you usually do after checking in? There are usually about three working biros chained to the desks for the few unfortunates who forget their own: now we'll all have to share them.
I noticed something interesting on the Qantas website: it quotes the official UK Department of Transport announcement more or less word for word but adds the following:
quote:Given these restrictions, passengers are requested to not purchase items, including, for example, alcohol, perfume, make-up at any of the retail outlets in the departure area. These items will not be permitted onboard the aircraft. Please note also that fountain pens containing ink may not be carried onboard.
No books. No duty-free. No fountain pens, for crying out loud. Travel is going to become even less fun than it already is.
Kate
Posts: 2451 | From: Hong Kong/Cairns | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Bach_girl you should learn to look more closely and listen to what people there said the people were doing.
The point is the first guy was dumping a tub of confiscated possibly explosive liquids into a garbage can in a crowd of people. Tell me does that sound safe to you? Or even wise?
"Maya Leoni, who is held by Angela Perez, cries as her mother, A.J. Leoni, pours the last of her drink into the receptacle while in line for the security checkpoint at the Asheville Regional Airport."
potentially explosive liquids mixed together in a crowded place is not considered sane or even safe. Why don't they put all the explosive liquids into a bonfire in the middle of the airport? You wouldn't need the terrorists working to kill lots of travelers the travelers would be doing all the work.
Posts: 320 | From: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: Jul 2006
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Terrorists already know of dozens of ways to get around these stupid restrictions that were put in place today. These guys were morons. I suspect it will be later revealed they had no connections to any terrorist groups like all the other prior ones.
Btw the London bombings were under surveliance by Brit intelligence two of the bombers were in fact known. The bombers were allowed to proceed with their plot. In fact the ringleader was a double agent who was supposed to be working for British Intelligence. Sorry but that whole bombing makes the Brit Intelligence look like dupes or they allowed it to occur because stopped terrorist plots kept hidden or revealed aren't very effective at making the public sheep like a bombing is. At that time having a bomb go off in the London subways was very beneficial to certain people in power.
Tell me are you not aware of those hyped terrorist plots that involved the blowtorches to the Brooklyn Bridge that was heradled as saying illegal wiretapping worked when the guys were already under FBI legal court ordered survilence?
How about the various groups in Canada that were just wannabes but hyped to be connected to be Al-Queda? How about the group of crazies in Florida that were a group of Christians with wacko beliefs?
Yeah funny how each was hyped up and showing the war on terror to be working due to illegal spying when each group had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda or that the illegal spying didn't catch them.
Let me guess you think that the newspaper stories published this year on tracking money tipped off the terrorists and that those newspaper people should be tried for treason.
Posts: 320 | From: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Morgaine La Raq Star: So, why the ban on books? Where do books come into this? I can't find anything that says why books have been banned.
Thank you, Morgaine. I've been wondering this myself.
Because books are dangerous! Books have instructions on how to make bombs. That new bonkbuster was written by a terrorist and the instructions are embedded in the text and front cover in code. And the book is printed on special paper with special ink that explodes when mixed with Dr Pepper and Orbit sugar free gum.
A cunningly thrown book can cripple cabin crew while the sharp edges of the pages can inflict nasty cuts and be used to hold the flight crew hostage. It's true, a friend heard it from her uncle who heard it from one of his golfing buddies.
quote:Originally posted by tootiredtocare: Btw the London bombings were under surveliance by Brit intelligence two of the bombers were in fact known. The bombers were allowed to proceed with their plot. In fact the ringleader was a double agent who was supposed to be working for British Intelligence. Sorry but that whole bombing makes the Brit Intelligence look like dupes or they allowed it to occur because stopped terrorist plots kept hidden or revealed aren't very effective at making the public sheep like a bombing is. At that time having a bomb go off in the London subways was very beneficial to certain people in power.
Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer had been encountered on the very edges of other investigations but were not deemed to be of high priority for investigations - the full report records that in 2004 the pair had been part of a group of men who had held meetings with others who had been under surveillance, but the judgment was made that they were peripheral to the main investigation. As resources became available an investigation was launched into the men on the peripheries of the 2004 operation, but higher priorities were later identified and resources diverted away from this investigation. Neither of these two were under surveillance at the time of the 7th July bombings.
Of the other two bombers the report indicates that the security services had on record a telephone number which (after 7th July) was identified as being that of Jermaine Lindsay. That was all they had on him, and there was no information at all on Hasib Mir Hussain.
Presumably you'll be able to provide proof that the ringleader was a British double agent since you've asserted it as a fact.
quote:Tell me are you not aware of those hyped terrorist plots that involved the blowtorches to the Brooklyn Bridge
I am unaware of this. Can anyone supply a link to a news article, as it is something I would like to know more about.
quote:or they allowed it to occur because stopped terrorist plots kept hidden or revealed aren't very effective at making the public sheep like a bombing is. At that time having a bomb go off in the London subways was very beneficial to certain people in power.
So why did we stop this one? The political climate in this country hasn't changed much over the last 13 months or so, so if it was so 'beneficial' to allow the London tube bombings, why stop the plane bombings? Even more hand wringing from our Tony B, and more photo ops.
Seriously, to disrupt air travel to this extent, especially in our borderline economy, someone would have to come up with some bloody good evidence. Or face having the nation and the press have their b###ocks for breakfast.
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I assumed that the book ban is there to speed up the whole process. I'm guessing that it's not that books are inherently dangerous, but rather that checking each one, and taking the time to make decisions about whether or not a pen or a pencil or a pack of gum is ok would just slow things down unbearably on top of already massive delays.
ETA: D'oh! Spanked by Kate.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Has no-one seen those old movies, where alcoholics hide small bottles of spirits in hollowed-out books?
Think of the potential.
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Would it be possible to steep a book in some sort of nitrate mix so that the paper becomes unstable and detonates when thrown? I wouldn't much fancy carrying it around with me though...
quote:tootiredtocare said: Also it should be noted that these loons were under watch for months and it appears their arrest was orchestrated today to help Blair and Bush out. Blair is facing a mutiny in the Parliment.
This doesn't make sense. Blair isn't facing any worse crises now than he was "months ago". Nothing has happened recently that would make this a good distraction for him at this moment. If it was meant to be a distraction from something I imagine it would have happened a few weeks ago, shortly after the cash-for-honours investigations started.
The arrests had to be "orchestrated" at some point - all the suspects have to be arrested at once or within a short space of time, or everybody would be tipped off.
The obvious, rational reason why police would watch people for months before acting is to actually gather evidence and confirm what they're trying to do, so that they're able to bring charges and get convictions. They then stop the plot when enough of it's in place to conclusively demonstrate to a jury that real crimes were being committed, but before it's carried out.
If they arrested the people as soon as somebody said to the police "I think this guy might be plotting something," then what would they be charged with? From the tone of your posts, you'd be complaining that there was no evidence and that they hadn't done anything worth speaking of and that they should be let go. Of course, if there's no evidence, then they should be let go.
I guess you could take the "Guantanamo" line that evidence, charges and trials don't matter, but even Bush seems to be backing off that one now, and given that you're moaning that other plots uncovered were absurd and the suspects were dupes, I get the impression that you aren't keen on detaining people with no evidence, charge or trial.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Richard W: This doesn't make sense. Blair isn't facing any worse crises now than he was "months ago". Nothing has happened recently that would make this a good distraction for him at this moment. If it was meant to be a distraction from something I imagine it would have happened a few weeks ago, shortly after the cash-for-honours investigations started.
although it has distracted from the middle east and the use of Prestwick airport as a stop off for arms to Isreal.
-------------------- once known as little miss
"I don't Pretend to be an ordinary Housewife" Elizabeth Taylor Posts: 2416 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
This all depends on the depth of any proposed conspiracy.
It might conceivably be worth the Government's while to orchestrate some arrests, and even mass transit chaos, in order to distract attention from current events.
But reports are that intelligence has been being collected in this matter for some time. As Richard says, why use such a big "event" to distract from the UK's relatively minor role in the current Middle East crisis?
I think that the Government has behaved duplicitously and utterly without integrity in the way it has approached the so-called "War on Terror". I also think that the police have exhibited some examples of atrocious intelligence-gathering and -handling techniques, and criminally negligent procedure and communications.
But I still think it's more likely than not that yesterday's alert was based on genuine evidence. I think that the problems we have with the current Government are more serious than a simple propensity to use the tactic of saying "OMG! Look over there!" when they are in the shit.
Of course, tootiredtocare's position seems to be that they are doing all these things. They can distract us by pretending that there is a terrorist plot, or by actually orchestrating explosions and killing us. Apparently either will do. The definition of a genuine terrorist for TTTC is someone who actually does conduct and get away with a significant violent act. Anyone who gets caught before they carry through is just a dupe or a ninny.
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Maybe Blair knows that The News of The World has just uncovered evidence that he's a vampire who was responsible for the Jack the Ripper murders. And now we'll never know because of this distraction. The bastards!
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Bach_girl you should learn to look more closely and listen to what people there said the people were doing.
The point is the first guy was dumping a tub of confiscated possibly explosive liquids into a garbage can in a crowd of people. Tell me does that sound safe to you? Or even wise?
All the reports I'm reading indicate that a detonator would be needed to explode any bomb. Without the detonator, no explosion. Am I missing something?
And TTTC, please lay off the insults and condescension. You're not helping yourself.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:All the reports I'm reading indicate that a detonator would be needed to explode any bomb. Without the detonator, no explosion. Am I missing something?
It depends on the explosive used. Nitroglycerine happily detonates if you look angrily at it, while stable explosives like Semtex and C4 needs a detonator.
Also, the detonator does not have to be a mechanical device, it can be a chemical reagent. Actually, the same goes for the timer, some chemical reactions can be timed with great accuracy depending on mixing proportions.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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I forgot I was conversing with an expert in terrorism. That must be how you have such detailed information about people who were arrested 24 hours ago all being morons. I am so happy your "facts" are available to clarify this situation.
Could you share some of your sources. And a blog is only a source of fact if it has something other than a misinterpreted photos and some made up fluff. We prefer facts over innuendo.
When I woke up, I had a bunch of other comments to make to you, but to be honest, once again the other snopsters beat me to it (and did a better job). And please do not think that the fact more people have not pointed out the huge holes in your logic means they aren't there. It means most of them are smarter then me and decided arguing with a know-it-all ( as opposed to a genuine expert like TG) is a waste of bytes.
I am glad I am preparing to go away from the Internet for the weekend so I don't end up debasing myself any more arguing with you. I should just take a page from Richard W and treat your posts with the respect they deserve..instead lets try this:
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
-------------------- "We keep finding better ways to celebrate mediocrity"---Mr. Incredible
Assume at least one edit for typos..my keyboard and I fight alot :) Posts: 275 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Guess you forget that Blair is Bush's lapdog and was talking to him about this before the arrests were made. Guess you forgot all those Liberman's defeat helps terrorists talks from Cheney and other goverment officals.
Notice what is being said in the report about the two. Kinda blows out that report and makes the demand for a full public investigation more compelling right?
John Loftus a former US prosecutor in the Nazi war crimes divison who has access to top secret documents from many agencies around the world asserts that Haroon Rashid Aswat is a double agent who works for the MI6. John Loftus btw is now billed as a terrorism expert by many media channels, newspapers etc.
Haroon Rashid Aswat was in fact trying to set up a terriorist training camp in 1999 in Bly, Oregon but the police were ordered not to arrest him since he was working for MI6. In fact the British police on one hand were trying to catch him while MI6 was trying hiding him. It should also be noted he was even arrested in Pakistan after the bombings occured but was released to go on his merry way once again.
Posts: 320 | From: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
"Blair isn't facing any worse crises now than he was "months ago". Nothing has happened recently that would make this a good distraction for him at this moment. If it was meant to be a distraction from something I imagine it would have happened a few weeks ago, shortly after the cash-for-honours investigations started."
Ahem I linked to a newspaper explaining why Blair had only days remaining unless something came up.
A number of chemicals that explode don't need any detonator just mixing them together in a certain ratio or even just having them make contact can cause an explosion. You must have missed that in chemistry class. There are number of liquid explosives available to commerical, military sources that can be used by terrorists. They simply put in the luggage or have it smuggled into the plane's cargo hold. This stuff cannot be detected by guard dogs and it wouldn't raise an eye on an x-ray machine. Only certain machines can detect it and those machines are not at most airports yet. I would say 99% of the airports around the world don't have the machines.
The electronic device is just to not allow the liquids or gel or a combo to mix before the right time. It can be done in various ways. A timed method for instance, an air pressure sensor, even a thermostat since most plane cargoholds are exposed to air they get real cold.
The current restrictions on liquids being carried onto planes will not stop this method of blowing up a plane. The bombs will still get on the planes.
Only reason we haven't had more planes being blown up is an aircraft bombing or hijack suicide bomb is that such tactics have to be done for maximum gain. The Al-Qaeda hijacks of 9-11 were meant to make the US lash out and attack other nations so they could turn the Arab world against the US. This has succeded due to Iraq. As long as America is in Iraq or even is breathing about attacking Iran there is no need for a massive airplane hijack or bombing to take place.
Posts: 320 | From: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by tootiredtocare: Guess you forgot all those Liberman's defeat helps terrorists talks from Cheney and other goverment officals.
I should take this over to the We've Got Mail thread and post it in the Comprehensibility Optional section.
Or perhaps IND is sock-puppeting? Naw, even he makes more sense.
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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Ahem I linked to a newspaper explaining why Blair had only days remaining unless something came up.
Ahem, again with the ahems? You know every time you say ahem another conspiracy theorist gets his foil lined hat.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Ahem I linked to a newspaper explaining why Blair had only days remaining unless something came up
Personally I don't think that tinfoil hats have been marketed astutely enough. Sure, they got the conspiracy-theorist market. But why not diversify into TinFoilPostBlocks? Ordinary, rational MB enthusiasts could then get proper protection from people who seem to think that an article reporting the resignation of one MP really supports an assertion that Blair has the wit to organise mass arrests and even yer actual terror, Just To Make Us Look The Other Way.
Tip: we've still got an eye on Bambi. Don't you worry.
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
It should be noted that back in 1995 a terrorist plot to explode numerous American airplanes over the Pacific that was foiled had liquid explosives being the explosive. Now for the past ten years we have been allowed to carry liquids on planes. Why was it safe on Monday to carry liquids on planes but not on Friday?
Also why has Bush not cut his vacation short if a terrorist attack aimed at killing thousands of Americans is supposed to be immenient?
Maybe you Bush supporters should be asking yourselves some hard question as to how competent or loyal to America the people you put in power are.
posted
BlueStar, what with this and the "snakes" gambit earlier on, I think you must be working on an aeronautical joke book...
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by BlueStar: Apparently BA is refusing to fly out of any airport in the UK.
In a statement he said "I ain't getting on no plane fool!"
I'll get my coat.
Comedy genius!
Posts: 1555 | From: Leicestershire, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by tootiredtocare: Guess you forget that Blair is Bush's lapdog and was talking to him about this before the arrests were made. Guess you forgot all those Liberman's defeat helps terrorists talks from Cheney and other goverment officals.
Is that the link you meant to post? Again, I can't see any connection between that story and anything that's in your post. It's about the fact that two of the July 7th bombers from last year (Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer) had previously been under surveillance but that the surveillance had been stopped because at that point they weren't considered a threat. It doesn't mention Bush, Blair or Haroon Rashid Aswat.
Er, and now you're saying that Blair timed these arrests to help Bush and not to help himself?
As far as I can gather, Haroon Rashid Aswat is thought by the USA to have been connected to the July 7th bombings because "his" phone was used to talk to suspects shortly before the bombings, but his exact involvement isn't clear and the UK is denying that it was so critical. The USA may have been monitoring the calls and so may know whether it was actually Aswat who made them; the UK appears not to have been. Aswat was arrested in Zambia and is currently wanted for extradition to the USA on charges unrelated to the bombings (he allegedly "tried to set up a camp in Oregon between 1999 and 2000 to train people to fight in Afghanistan.") I'm not entirely sure what he has to do with your argument either.
quote:In fact the British police on one hand were trying to catch him while MI6 was trying hiding him.
Where did you get this "fact"? At best this is disputed, since MI6 are hardly likely to admit that they were hiding him as an informer. There's a Sunday Times article about some of the issues here:
quote:The South Africans are believed to have relayed the request to British authorities who were reluctant to agree to him being seized because of his status as a British citizen. The US, it is claimed, wanted to take control of Aswat using a process known as “extraordinary rendition”, which would bypass the normal extradition process and may have resulted in him being flown to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba or a country that allows torture.
However, questions are also being asked about whether the British did not wish to have Aswat arrested because he was seen as a useful source of information. To some, British intelligence is too willing to let terrorist suspects run in the hope of gathering useful leads and other information.
There are legitimate reasons to resist his extradition to the USA (or elsewhere, by the USA) regardless of whether he's an MI6 informer. And again, I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.
What's your point, exactly? That the US and British governments are completely in control of the terrorist networks, manipulating all attacks and arrests simply to further their own agendas?
Damn, I think I fell into the trap of trying to work out what you actually mean. I certainly fell into the trap of looking up some of the random names you dropped out-of-context to try to clarify your argument for you.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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